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The worst arguments against FFA PVP

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  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Grumpy:

    So say on a pve wow server

    How do you deal with that bot that's mining all your nodes? Report it, chances are you will not be seeing that bot again.
    How do you get back that guy that kicked you right at the end of the boss fight so he could ninja the loot? Add to ignore, you will not be grouping with him in the future.
    How do you stop the guy that trained a bunch of mobs onto you? Lose aggro to the mobs, add to ignore list. Report.
    How do you stop the guy that watches you clear a path to the named quest mob then rushes in and grabs it at the last minute for the lolz? Add to ignore list, try again in a few minutes, if he is still griefing you, report 
    How do you do the raid progression without encountering gear score nazis? Join a guild that are not dicks. Do research on guilds before you join. Its possible, i did it for 3 years and three guilds.

     

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Or you could just kill them and take all their gear.
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Or you could just kill them and take all their gear.

    lol

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    Yeah, putting someone on an ignore list and/or reporting him to the authorities is for real life.

    When I play games I want to kill my enemies, take their loot, burn their houses down and hear the lamentations of their pixels!
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Biskop
    Yeah, putting someone on an ignore list and/or reporting him to the authorities is for real life.

    When I play games I want to kill my enemies, take their loot, burn their houses down and hear the lamentations of their pixels!

    Reporting somebody in game feels so childish to me.  "I'm going to tell my mommy on you".

    Give me the tools to deal with problems myself.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Grumpy:

    So say on a pve wow server

    How do you deal with that bot that's mining all your nodes?
    How do you get back that guy that kicked you right at the end of the boss fight so he could ninja the loot?
    How do you stop the guy that trained a bunch of mobs onto you?
    How do you stop the guy that watches you clear a path to the named quest mob then rushes in and grabs it at the last minute for the lolz?
    How do you do the raid progression without encountering gear score nazis?

    It's a bot, they're stupid, just go ahead of them and watch the bot go from point to point doing nothing.

    Can't really ninja loot anymore unless you're pugging a raid (raid finder prevents ninja'ing - each person has their own chance at loot for each boss).

    If you see a train of mobs, just don't aggro them? If you don't do anything to them, they will just chase the other guy until they evade and reset.

    You can no longer ninja named mobs, they are now special mobs and everyone who hits them gets credit for the kill (they drop no loot - quest credit only).

    Gear score nazis are not exclusive to PvE. Have you ever tried to get on a good Arena or RGB team? I've had less intense job interviews.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    It's a very very long time since I played wow.
    What's rgb?

    Anyway all I can go off is experience. While playing mmos, I've got along with, had way way less drama and generally had more fun while in pvp guilds. I've been in some nice casual pve guilds, but every serious progression pve guild I've been in has had more than its share of arseholes. Perhaps I have been unlucky, who knows. But generally I find hardcore pvpers more agreeable people than hardcore pveers. Just a scroll up this thread to various items of cod psychology suggesting pvp gamers are 12 year old psychopaths etc.. just reinforces my views on the hardcore pve element.
  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Biskop
    Yeah, putting someone on an ignore list and/or reporting him to the authorities is for real life.

    When I play games I want to kill my enemies, take their loot, burn their houses down and hear the lamentations of their pixels!

    Reporting somebody in game feels so childish to me.  "I'm going to tell my mommy on you".

    Give me the tools to deal with problems myself.

    The devs are not going to give the players the power to ban other players and nothing else really works as a deterrant.

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Killing them and taking all their gear does
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    FFA PvP, as it has been implemented thus far in the MMO genre, is simply bad design.

    Piss poor design, to be honest.

    But that's ok, some people really, really enjoy bad design. Some people really, really enjoy bad music and bad movies.

    Personal taste is subjective, objective quality is not.

    It's also ok, a lot of the themepark designs are really bad too. In some ways they are even worse. Gear-grind based instanced PvP is about as bad of a PvP system design as you can get for both a MMO and a RPG.

    In fact I'd go as far to say that there are only a handful of actual "good" designs that have ever been present in the MMORPG genre.

    Sure there have been very popular designs, and there certainly have been very profitable designs, as there have been very addiction fostering designs.

    But objectively "good" designs?

    Very few in the entire history of the MMORPG genre as a whole.

    The only two MMORPGs with objectively good designs are, perhaps not ironically, from a lot of the same designers. They still got a lot of it wrong and went through Hell and back trying to make it right.

    A lot of the most popular and "successful" MMO designs have been work-arounds and "shove it under the rug" fixes for the fundamental problems that exist within the genre that have never truly been addressed.

    Strides have been made, in fact recently a particular MMO made a huge leap forward in cooperative PvE design, but still failed to address the fundamental underlying issues and now people (myself included) are starting to see the shallowness of it all.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Spock
    Assume you mean daoc for a themepark.
    And eve or uo for a sandbox.

    There really is no reason to use any other pvp system. These work. Games since have less good pvp systems. Why devs keep copying wow tupperware pvp with token flip a switch servers is beyond me.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Spock
    Assume you mean daoc for a themepark.
    And eve or uo for a sandbox.

    There really is no reason to use any other pvp system. These work. Games since have less good pvp systems. Why devs keep copying wow tupperware pvp with token flip a switch servers is beyond me.

    Yes and no.

    It'd be an entirely new thread and literally a many dozen if not more page essay for me to really explain it lol

    No MMORPG has really ever gotten everything right, there have been little blips of genius here and there, but no complete package and even those games which contain the few bright spots are generally terrible in other ways.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Spock
    Assume you mean daoc for a themepark.
    And eve or uo for a sandbox.

    There really is no reason to use any other pvp system. These work. Games since have less good pvp systems. Why devs keep copying wow tupperware pvp with token flip a switch servers is beyond me.

    In all respect, those 3 games are one of the better(or even the best), which exist in the MMORPG market, but in no way means that, that they are perfect, or should stay like that. Truth is, there is no perfect PvP MMORPG design out there.. they all lack to some degree. And the same is true for a lot of other design pattern in the mmorpg market, i have really agree with the general attitude with BadSpock.

    But nothing is wrong to take one of those 3 as a fundament to enhance a pvp system.. but just to stick on them isnt enough.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Oh I agree, e.g. planetside too daoc system, added vehicles, made it fps combat - one of the best pvp mmos.

    Perpetuum took eve system, made it more pveer friendly, made it wasd movement, made terrain Matter again decent pvp game.

    But why oh why copy the wow model that so many mmos do I never know, its a dead end going nowhere, and people can get simmilar experience from f2p moba anyway.

    Pvp needs to evolve. But its a good idea to evolve it from a decent base

    Now if someone could merge the sandboxyness of eve with the siege and tactics of daoc and the combat of planetside with the integration of uo, then add some more "cool shit"tm we could be onto a winner.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    I think PvP in a MMO should have consequence and matter to the game and to your persona in the game far, far beyond the confines of a match timer or scoreboard tally.

    Yet at the same time, like in more structured FPS style matchmade PvP I think your skill as a player should matter far, far more than how much time you've invested and/or how much $ you have (both in-game and out.)

    These two concepts though have never been paired in a single game.

    I want all the openness of the MMO without the time-based advantage of the RPG.

    But I like/love the time-based investment advantage on the PvE side (to an extent.)

    So how do you marry these concept?

    I guess it reflects on what you/we think a MMORPG should be?

    Is it an online version of D&D or is it a Virtual World play ground?

     

    If it's an online version of D&D, than instancing and gear/level progression and such all make sense - but PvP really doesn't make sense at all - unless of course you are happy with instanced gear/level progression based PvP then the two marry well.

    If it's a Virtual World play ground, than the idea of gear/level progression doesn't make any sense - in either PvE or PvP, and that's something no sandbox has ever really explored. UO came kind of close back in the day, especially after Trammel/Felucca split and introduction of Factions PvP.

    Which is why that era of UO is what I consider to be the "golden standard" of MMO - but apparently I'm alone in that assessment.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Oh definetly with you on the latter of the two there.
  • bamdorfbamdorf Chatham, NJPosts: 150Member

    Hmmm.    I don't have fun playing FFA games.   I also don't feel I need to analyze my thinking to see whether I am logically consistent, i.e., that my "feelings" are justified, since feelings aren't about thinking anyway.     For someone to post with the clear insinuation that I am using inappropriate arguments to decide that I don't like  FFA, based on a list of ideas he thinks are operating is insulting.  You have no right to condemn what you imagine I might be thinking.

    I also like blue generally better than red (colors not political!).   I haven't tried to figure that one out either.   And if someone says my blue thing is wrong and gives a list of reasons for it, well maybe insulting isn't the right word, come to think of it.

    Whether people who like FFA are sociopaths (or any other statement from the OP's list) is something I haven't thought about and don't care about.   Having realized (not decided, since it is not a rational process, as, e.g., art appreciation) that I don't enjoy it I can stop right there.   I have no further interest in the subject.

     

     

    ---------------------------
    Rose-lipped maidens,
    Light-foot lads...

  • cdesteycdestey Bethlehem, GAPosts: 70Member
    Originally posted by bamdorf

    Hmmm.    I don't have fun playing FFA games.   I also don't feel I need to analyze my thinking to see whether I am logically consistent, i.e., that my "feelings" are justified, since feelings aren't about thinking anyway.     For someone to post with the clear insinuation that I am using inappropriate arguments to decide that I don't like  FFA, based on a list of ideas he thinks are operating is insulting.  You have no right to condemn what you imagine I might be thinking.

    I also like blue generally better than red (colors not political!).   I haven't tried to figure that one out either.   And if someone says my blue thing is wrong and gives a list of reasons for it, well maybe insulting isn't the right word, come to think of it.

    Whether people who like FFA are sociopaths (or any other statement from the OP's list) is something I haven't thought about and don't care about.   Having realized (not decided, since it is not a rational process, as, e.g., art appreciation) that I don't enjoy it I can stop right there.   I have no further interest in the subject.

     I think you're misunderstanding the post. He's not listing reasons why YOU should like FFA games. He's listing the arguments people use to attack FFA games and those that play them.

  • bamdorfbamdorf Chatham, NJPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by cdestey
    Originally posted by bamdorf

    Hmmm.    I don't have fun playing FFA games.   I also don't feel I need to analyze my thinking to see whether I am logically consistent, i.e., that my "feelings" are justified, since feelings aren't about thinking anyway.     For someone to post with the clear insinuation that I am using inappropriate arguments to decide that I don't like  FFA, based on a list of ideas he thinks are operating is insulting.  You have no right to condemn what you imagine I might be thinking.

    I also like blue generally better than red (colors not political!).   I haven't tried to figure that one out either.   And if someone says my blue thing is wrong and gives a list of reasons for it, well maybe insulting isn't the right word, come to think of it.

    Whether people who like FFA are sociopaths (or any other statement from the OP's list) is something I haven't thought about and don't care about.   Having realized (not decided, since it is not a rational process, as, e.g., art appreciation) that I don't enjoy it I can stop right there.   I have no further interest in the subject.

     I think you're misunderstanding the post. He's not listing reasons why YOU should like FFA games. He's listing the arguments people use to attack FFA games and those that play them.

    I can see why you say that and it is not wholly unreasonable.   But I disagree.   The OP's message screams (to me)  that people who don't like FFA pvp don't have a legitimate argument against it.    I am one of those people.   I am saying I don't need a legitmate argument.    As far as "people who attack FFA games" I wonder what he means by that.   Lots of people say they don't like it, it's not something they would play, but I can't remember a single serious post saying that FFA should be banned from MMO space --- which would constitute an "attack".   The posts I remember are that people want developers to state clearly what level of PvP is goign to be in their games.    Quite so.   Am I over reacting if I sense that this post  is a creation of a list of straw men so one can indulge self-justification?    If you like FFA you don't need any justification.   If you don't, ditto.

     

    ---------------------------
    Rose-lipped maidens,
    Light-foot lads...

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Which is fine. If you don't like it you don't like it.

    But if you notice, he mentioned the amateur psychologist pro pve white knights (not you) that come out with crap like pvpers are mentally deranged for liking such a playstyle, and a few of those stuck their big noses into this thread in a misguided attempt to dissuade us from our evil pvp choice before we go out and buy a machine gun and now down a bunch of people in real life.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Of course you never ever get asshats, greifers and jerks in raid guilds or on pve servers

    Exactly, PvErs are saints compared to those PvP felons.

    The difference is that they can't affect my enjoyment much.

    Jerks in raid guilds .. just raid on LFR and PUGs .. don't like the group .. hit the quit button. I don't have to suffer anyone.

     

    In the same way, if you don't like FFA, hit the quit button.

    I do it a better way. Don't play FFA in the first place.

  • AntharaAnthara CascaisPosts: 75Member

    While I agree in what the op says in most cases... I can't avoid saying that the term "wow dueling" is kinda falling into the same cheap criticism.

    I don't play wow since TBC, except the first month of every expansion cause I like to check the new stuff. And I have to say, I've seen more world pvp this expansion in a couple new zones than all the ten mmo's that launched since then.

    Also I fail to see any recent game with "decent" ffa pvp. No... spawn ganking lowbies in early zones with a high tune is not ffa pvp. And I doubt any hardcore pvper enjoy beeing spawn ganked 24/7 by a vet. Even for the most brave, chilled, hardcore pvper there isn't any "fun" envolved.

    FFA pvp is not just free for all, you need to build something logical and organized... well planned.

    That's where I believe EVE pvp wins all over the competition.

    Anyway, all valid points but you couldn't avoid bringing the word "WoW" to the table wich is pretty ridiculous.

    And about someone else saying he knows guys in the military that play pvp... "so they are not cowards for sure"... like if beeing in the military this days have anything to do with bravery.

     

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Grumpy:

    So say on a pve wow server

    How do you deal with that bot that's mining all your nodes?
    How do you get back that guy that kicked you right at the end of the boss fight so he could ninja the loot?
    How do you stop the guy that trained a bunch of mobs onto you?
    How do you stop the guy that watches you clear a path to the named quest mob then rushes in and grabs it at the last minute for the lolz?
    How do you do the raid progression without encountering gear score nazis?

    I can't speak for WoW since I haven't played it in many years....but I can speak for LOTRO which I played more recently..

    Nodes - Not really much of a problem, nodes replenish so quickly and there are so many different areas you can get them that it easy enough just to pick them up in another spot. Plus you can report them and something WILL be done about it. Worst casr scenario, you work on something else in the game for a little bit.

    Ninja - Just put them on your list to never group with again. No big deal.

    Mob Trains - Not an issue. Mobs stick to who-ever aggro'd them...meaning trains are not possible.

    Named Mob - No big deal. You'll grab the next spawn. Worst case scenario you go work on another quest or thing in the game for a bit. If the person follows you and does it again...REPORT. That sort of harrasment is a BANNABLE offense in PvE.

    Raids - No big deal. Just Raid/Group with people you enjoy grouping with.

    All the things you mention are simply minor temporary inconveniences that one can avoid by just avoiding that player or doing something else. If that player follows you around to continue to interrupt your play, that's considered HARRASSMENT...it's a violation of TOS and can be REPORTED and result in that person being BANNED.

    In FFA PvP what would be considered HARRASSMENT in a PvE game is a normal function of play....a player 50 levels higher then you can corpse camp you, follow you around and generaly make your life hell and there's nothing you can do about it because it all falls within the normal rules of play. In a PVE game you'd report that person and they'd be yanked. Most people simply don't want to deal with that sort of $ss-hattery when playing a game for entertainment.

    Rather then pretend no problem exists, I think you guys might be better served reckognizing the problem and thinking about what mechanisms might be used to deal with that. Either that or accept that your FFA PvP games will have a very limited player base. Clearly PvP itself is not unpopular (all the people playing FPS games are testamount to that). Even the concept of FFA PvP isn't.... ALOT of people actualy do try FFA PvP games but ALOT of those people quit very soon after trying them. Even a game like EvE which seems to have a pretty decent handle on FFA PvP gets a huge amount of people trying and then quiting. There is a REASON why so many FFA PvP games have tiny player bases and get very few new players joining.  It's not because people don't like the color of the box the game comes in.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

    In FFA PvP what would be considered HARRASSMENT in a PvE game is a normal function of play....a player 50 levels higher then you can corpse camp you, follow you around and generaly make your life hell and there's nothing you can do about it because it all falls within the normal rules of play. In a PVE game you'd report that person and they'd be yanked. Most people simply don't want to deal with that sort of $ss-hattery when playing a game for entertainment.

    Rather then pretend no problem exists, I think you guys might be better served reckognizing the problem and thinking about what mechanisms might be used to deal with that. Either that or accept that your FFA PvP games will have a very limited player base. Clearly PvP itself is not unpopular (all the people playing FPS games are testamount to that). Even the concept of FFA PvP isn't.... ALOT of people actualy do try FFA PvP games but ALOT of those people quit very soon after trying them. Even a game like EvE which seems to have a pretty decent handle on FFA PvP gets a huge amount of people trying and then quiting. There is a REASON why so many FFA PvP games have tiny player bases and get very few new players joining.  It's not because people don't like the color of the box the game comes in.

    This is a great post.

    I agree completely.

    As I've said, FFA PvP is really the only way to do PvP "right" in a MMORPG, but no one has ever done FFA PvP right thus far - as it is right now it is a horribly, horribly designed system.

    Instead of trying to make the design actually work, anyone who asks questions and demands better/innovation is labelled a care bear and told to go back to WoW.

  • KenzeKenze Posts: 1,214Member Uncommon
    nm..
    i dont want to get in to the conversation

    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    —Lao-Tze

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