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Originally posted by Zorgo There are probably even more variables.
I like a lot of your list.
You forgot "an enormous army of unpaid, relentless, and absolutely free viral marketers". Blizzard says "Thanks guys!" and pockets more stacks of money. "Oh, we're gonna give you some Pandas. You love pandas, right?" (Zombie moans) "Thought so!"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
every mmo is a failure, the genre is based on a flawed concept of subcriptions and people playing the game over long periods of time... its too darn bad that games are a very disposable asset, like a plastic fork... Use it! Then throw it away...
Originally posted by Zorgo Originally posted by MercArcher What does that say about the genre when everything since wow has failed? That's 7 years straight of failures. (arbitrary condition for success = maintaining 1m+ subs)
I don't accept the premise as stated, I don't see having fewer than 1m subs being a 'failure'.
In addition, I believe that GW2 has over 1m active players, SWToR maybe hovering below that, but I wouldn't be surprised if they have 1m+ after f2p. ; so this would also invalidate the premise. However, the fact that GW2 can have at or over 1m without the sub model, may indicate a failure to look at the problem correctly. This would indicate it wasn't the games that failed, but rather the subscription model itself. As further evidenced by VG, EQ, EQ2, LoTRO, AoC, etc. all switching to f2p models.
If it were re-stated:
Why has no game since WoW been able to maintain over 1m subs?
I think the answer would involve a combination of the following:
- oversaturation of the market
- lack of innovation in the games post WoW
- f2p models becoming prevalent
- limited audience (there are only so many of us mmo geeks)
- project constraints (Moneyholder says to developer, 'make it this way by this date')
- unpleasable, skeptical audience
- unintended self perpetuating player patterns (we play a game 3 months and quit; if this becomes an established pattern, developers start developing games with this 3 month average in mind)
There are probably even more variables.
Some seem to want it to boil down to one and one thing only; unfortunately life, social patterns and business are more complicated than that.
I think we have the greatest problem with this one.
The current MMO-crowd is constantly asking for "something new" but rejects "something new" in favor of the same familiar mechanics/dynamics we have seen for years.
This leads developers to believe that "something new" is actually "something familiar, with a twist" and of course they will make games like that.
See the last 7 years of AAA MMORPGs.
Originally posted by Betaguy I wouldn't call them failures, they all made thier money back... They just haven't had the large consistant following Blizzard does.
Or that MMOs back in the dial up days had.
It's pretty pathetic when MMOs with a 1 million dollar budget on EXTREMELY limited tech had larger more successful MMOs than huge multi million publisher backed MMOs.
Originally posted by denshing You shouldn't measure success based off of WoW. WoW is more than a success, it's a one time phenomenon.
Well, ideally we wouldn't make decisions based on which way the Flock turns. We wouldn't be watching the flock carefully, trying to figure where its headed next...polls, popularity, subscription numbers, informal snarky comments surveys...and changing our minds about a game because someone you just don't like is playing it.
Watch the forums for five minutes, and try to convince yourself that ideal's even possible. Gamers gleefully adopt offered labels as self-identifiers! Putting themselves in the box for easy cubbyhole identification.
"I yam a hardc0re sandboxer full-loot-PVPer explorer who believes in stiff death penalties and is against Mounts but for Housing. San Dimas High School Football Rules!"
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
OP, sorry but your being horribly Bias. if you look at pure numbers everything looks bad, But numbers isnt the only thing that defines success.
A good reason why WoW has the numbers. It was the first to bring in more crowds than just the MMORPG crowd. It did it quickly while popularity was on the rise, WoW's numbers were simply Timing. Imagine WoW being released beside GW2 or TSW, sorry to tell you but with what both games offered upon release WoW would not hold ground on them at all. WoW isnt some amazing gem that is untouchable because the game has sheer perfection. Any of the popular MMO's, hell even SWTOR being released in place of WoW would have done the same thing.
Because i can.I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Originally posted by Arglebargle Simple arbitrary definitions lead to simple arbitrary conclusions.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by Betaguy I wouldn't call them failures, they all made thier money back... They just haven't had the large consistant following Blizzard does.
When you only had 3-4 to choose from what do you expect? Now there are thousands.
Well, that was pretty easy to figure out with just a little common sense.
It’s not so much about the commercial success of WoW, but how WoW’s commercial success has crippled true innovation in the genre. What MMO since WoW has had such an impact on the marketplace?
Almost like WoW came out at just the right time before the oversaturation of games that would of actualy (today) made wow itself how it is to be considered a failure (even if it was to have stuff in its BC or wotlk state). Lets face it, WoW's success is solely due to when it was released and the small amount of compeititon it had, which much of it was more hardcore focused and didn't really bother to take other games content like wow did (which btw, took heavily from EQ1).
I have a feeling this is more so a 'bait' post then anything though, just doubt someone could be ignorant and say something like that without meaning to purposely bait people into an arguement.
Sorry to say but this topic is Absolutely hilarious
Anyway for instance as exemple in 1999 if u guys remember movie: The Blair Witch Project my point is they made that movie with budget around 60k now the movie made in profit over 245 Millions dollars.
My point is there is plenty of games out there even before wow still kicking as long they did not shutdown/close i assume in some way they are successful, plus and ofc there is games out there made with very low budgets and probably made more profit than most of those well known/huge companies with much higher budgets etc
Just to add 1 recent exemple just few weeks ago:
World of Tanks On October 4th, 2012 the game reached 40 million subscribers, with record-breaking 500,000 concurrent players online on one server based in Russia.
Originally posted by Zorgo If it were re-stated: Why has no game since WoW been able to maintain over 1m subs?
UO, AC, EQ, DaoC never maintained 1M subs, and its only the asian game that maintained over 1M subs, and they did it before and after wow, but they never been popular in the west.
Originally posted by MercArcher Originally posted by Entinerint Originally posted by MercArcher Originally posted by Boudewijns wondering how much that guy got to say it on this forum
Why would I get anything for saying it. I simply made a resonal constraint separating success and failure, then applied it to MMOs. It's the truth.
Everyone is fully aware that you work for Zenimax and Bethesda's PR department.
Actually I work for Exxon Mobile as a geologist. Care to try again?
Relax man, it's okay. You're just doing your job, I get that. You don't have to lie.
I admit, this thread is a pretty clever way to set up your company's game as the...what did you call it? Oh yeah "savior of MMOs."
every mmo since wow has failed because wow destroyed the mmo genre with it's "I win mode"
Kick to the Face.
Originally posted by MercArcher What does that say about the genre when everything since wow has failed? That's 7 years straight of failures. (arbitrary condition for success = maintaining 1m+ subs)
Maybe in 7 more years these companies will stop trying to clone it...
Playing: Smite, Marvel HeroesPlayed: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAgeWaiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
Originally posted by Rakuji every mmo since wow has failed because wow destroyed the mmo genre with it's "I win mode"
you sir are correct, and actually I hate to say it but SWG Pre-CU was that game that didnt have the wow "I win mode" because you could do anything you wanted to with your character and plus it was a challenge, until $medley and company fu*ked it up to make it look like wow's crap.
The real standard of success for an MMO is one that has a positive return on investment for it's investors/shareholders and one that employs people for a while. If it also happens to entertain or set the new standard in MMO games then that is a bonus. Games that fail to do this can indeed be considered failures but they are fewer than you might think.
Originally posted by Sicae Originally posted by Zorgo If it were re-stated: Why has no game since WoW been able to maintain over 1m subs?
EQ was always under 1m
Everquest was the most popular western mmo for 5 years before wow
over a dozen mmos launched between 1999 and 2004
- many good ones but none as popular as EQ
find a mmo you enjoy and be happy w it,
judging a mmo only by numbers is like saying Justin Bieber sells millions and therefore makes great music
Kickstarter: Stuff I'm supporting
It says that people get accustomed to mediocrity and don't want to change. I mean we still have the same boorish Political parties, in the US, with the same old tired arguments.
People don't like change.
"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum
Aion hasn't failed by your arbitrary criteria, it has maintained several million subs since 2009.