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Do you ever wonder if Developers are humans and not... monkeys jumping on a keyboard?

AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member

In the past decade, I have seen some amazing concepts, fun MMORPG betas, and great MMO's get absolutely ruined, destroyed, or incompleted because of what was ultimately the leader of it all: the lead dev. MMORPG's without obvious features or with horrendously bad ideas.

I'm talking everything from UO's Trammel and SWG's Combat Upgrade, to unbalanced PvP or exploited bugs to kill players. Whatever have you, sometimes I wonder why some decisions were made.

 

IMO, some decisions were good decisions (like Trammel in UO), but some are horrible (Vanguard's release anyone? Vanguard's oversized world that felt so empty and lifeless. Exploitable PvP causing people to rage quit. Darkfall Macroing and other exploits that ruined the game so badly they decided to WIPE the servers now... WW2 online JUST NOW going F2P with a cash shop / freemium sub.)

Decisions that were often fixed, but all too late. Far, far, far too late. Sometimes YEARS after subs bled out.

Then there are other developers who are spot-on. Even if they have flaws, which are fewer in number, they iron them out rapidly. Giving people what they want, developing superior design, you get super-giant developers like BLIZZARD who make extreme quality games that are so polished they can shine your shoes just by logging in. Heck, they made THE LOST VIKINGS- one of the best SNES/SEGA games ever. Warcraft 2. Starcraft. It's NOT a surprise that WoW is so insanely successful. This company knows what it takes. They're NOT retarded.

 

[mod edit]

 

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Comments

  • AnubisanAnubisan Boulder, COPosts: 1,801Member

    I think the vast majority of developers (if not all) are in this to make genuinely good games that they can be proud of and that the players will enjoy. I think that the realities of the business are what often get in the way of games becoming what they could or should be. Somewhere during the development, funds start to run out or some investor starts to get impatient and the developers are then FORCED to cut corners and push the game out unfinished and lacking...

    This is why I am such a supporter of indie games and kickstarter projects. Indie developers are not beholden to stuffy investors, but they are still in need of funding. It used to be very difficult to get projects like that off the ground, but now people can actually make their idea of a perfect game without having to listen to investors or big publishers one bit. They can do this because the fan community is now directly funding the game development. I can't wait to see the kinds of games that will be produced this way over the next few years!

  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Puerto OrdazPosts: 1,065Member Uncommon

    I can say with 100% certainty that all developers are human.... but I'd pay good money to see a team of retarded monkeys jumping on a keyboard developing a game.. :)

    Developing a game is a complex thing, and they have the job of trying to please everybody, and by everybody I don't mean just the players, but also the higher ups at the companies, lawyers, administrators and so on. One thing I can asure you, no developer is going to create a bad game on purpose, but sometimes things happen that just make it happen. Things like too ambitious project designs and not enough people to implement them, publishers running out of money and demanding games to be released before they're completed to recover at least some money (this is a big one).

    What can men do against such reckless hate?

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by L0C0Man

     I'd pay good money to see a team of retarded monkeys jumping on a keyboard developing a game.. :)

    I see it every day, but where I work we do call them "developers".

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon

    *Shrug* I'm studying as a programmer and think through all these things already. Its not as simple as it looks at first.

    Even just the payment model:
    Go the f2p route and you get all the prejudice that comes with that + the insecurity of a regular income or the supposed dying p2p model that would generate and steady income.

    Not always a simple choice.

    Then you would have to balance financials with a feature list. some features may be necessary to cut to keep your product afloat..

    Its all well and good to criticise from the back row..

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

    *Shrug* I'm studying as a programmer and think through all these things already. Its not as simple as it looks at first.

    Even just the payment model:
    Go the f2p route and you get all the prejudice that comes with that + the insecurity of a regular income or the supposed dying p2p model that would generate and steady income.

    Not always a simple choice.

    Then you would have to balance financials with a feature list. some features may be necessary to cut to keep your product afloat..

    Its all well and good to criticise from the back row..

    [deleted]

    Nevermind...I just noticed you said you were going to school for CS and I don't want to break your spirit...

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon

    I totally agree with you that bad decisions are made but you have to look at the reasons why the changes were made, not insult the people trying to make the best decisions they could at the time.  Also, hindsight is always 20/20 and I can bet you 100% that if SoE/LA could forsee that the CU/NGE would not gain them the WoW numbers Blizzard was racking up they never would have pulled the trigger.

     

    The issue with Vanguard's release was cost vs. investment.  SoE stopped it from being shelved and then took the time to make it into a playable game.  What I don't think they forseen was the amount of time it would take.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by Nitth *Shrug* I'm studying as a programmer and think through all these things already. Its not as simple as it looks at first. Even just the payment model: Go the f2p route and you get all the prejudice that comes with that + the insecurity of a regular income or the supposed dying p2p model that would generate and steady income. Not always a simple choice. Then you would have to balance financials with a feature list. some features may be necessary to cut to keep your product afloat.. Its all well and good to criticise from the back row..
    [deleted]

    Nevermind...I just noticed you said you were going to school for CS and I don't want to break your spirit...


    Not sure what you wrote but thanks for retracting if you believe it's best not said.

    Although, If you had some industry knowledge I would like to hear.

    Doinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Software_Engineering which hosts a verity of languages besides C# by the later stages..

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon

    OP, you mean like this?

    The majority of developers are in it because they love games and want to make something others enjoy also. If you had the chance to meet and talk with a lot of them you would know this.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    [mod edit]

     

    So much ignorance and misconceptions on this post. I understand criticizing a game and its designs but to insult and moan is pathetic. Everyone thinks they have the solutions for everything and always asks "how could they have done such a thing?!". Before you do that sit down and try to do something remotely similar to see how well that goes.

    image


    image

  • UproarUproar Canton, MIPosts: 520Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by grimgryphon

    Originally posted by Nitth *Shrug* I'm studying as a programmer and think through all these things already. Its not as simple as it looks at first. Even just the payment model: Go the f2p route and you get all the prejudice that comes with that + the insecurity of a regular income or the supposed dying p2p model that would generate and steady income. Not always a simple choice. Then you would have to balance financials with a feature list. some features may be necessary to cut to keep your product afloat.. Its all well and good to criticise from the back row..
    [deleted]

     

    Nevermind...I just noticed you said you were going to school for CS and I don't want to break your spirit...

     


     

    Not sure what you wrote but thanks for retracting if you believe it's best not said.

    Although, If you had some industry knowledge I would like to hear.

    Doinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Software_Engineering which hosts a verity of languages besides C# by the later stages..

     

    I think it important to clarify for young CS student that Developer is not exactly (at least not always) the same as Programmer.  Strictly speaking of programming in MMOs it's done O'kay from what I've seen.  Testing, Game Mechanics, UI design, etc. etc. etc. leave a lot to be desired.

    image

  • aphydorkaphydork Boring, ORPosts: 133Member

    You might have an amazing vision, but when you leave your work in the hands of hundreds of people who are not you, your vision is compromised with every step of the way, even if you were to supervise with intense scrutiny.

    Have you ever done a group project, coming up with a great idea, and then having the final product be nothing like what you thought up?

    Just look at concept arts of games. While a lot of games can get pretty close to the original vision and artwork, the art changes quite a bit when your vision finally comes into fruition.

     

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Last I checked, I'm pretty sure I'm human.  Who knows my wife might think differently.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by grimgryphon

    Originally posted by Nitth *Shrug* I'm studying as a programmer and think through all these things already. Its not as simple as it looks at first. Even just the payment model: Go the f2p route and you get all the prejudice that comes with that + the insecurity of a regular income or the supposed dying p2p model that would generate and steady income. Not always a simple choice. Then you would have to balance financials with a feature list. some features may be necessary to cut to keep your product afloat.. Its all well and good to criticise from the back row..
    [deleted]

     

    Nevermind...I just noticed you said you were going to school for CS and I don't want to break your spirit...

     


     

    Not sure what you wrote but thanks for retracting if you believe it's best not said.

    Although, If you had some industry knowledge I would like to hear.

    Doinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Software_Engineering which hosts a verity of languages besides C# by the later stages..

    I've been working in the software industry for 31 years now and here's my little piece of advice...

    The sad truth is that developers are a dime a dozen these days. You're best avenue is to get an internship and show them why they should hire you over all the other CS grads. Most companies will hire on their interns unless they are really, really, awful. Treat an internship like an interview. Do what you can to increase your visibilty and stand out. Get involved in OS projects, start a blog about what you are doing and keep it updated, join some local computer-related groups and start networking. Get creative.

    My $0.02

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Nitth
    Not sure what you wrote but thanks for retracting if you believe it's best not said. Although, If you had some industry knowledge I would like to hear. Doinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Software_Engineering which hosts a verity of languages besides C# by the later stages..


    Originally posted by Uproar
    I think it important to clarify for young CS student that Developer is not exactly (at least not always) the same as Programmer. Strictly speaking of programming in MMOs it's done O'kay from what I've seen. Testing, Game Mechanics, UI design, etc. etc. etc. leave a lot to be desired.

    Yeah, I think I get the distinction. thanks man.


    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    I've been working in the software industry for 31 years now and here's my little piece of advice...

    The sad truth is that developers are a dime a dozen these days. You're best avenue is to get an internship and show them why they should hire you over all the other CS grads. Most companies will hire on their interns unless they are really, really, awful. Treat an internship like an interview. Do what you can to increase your visibilty and stand out. Get involved in OS projects, start a blog about what you are doing and keep it updated, join some local computer-related groups and start networking. Get creative.

    My $0.02


    wow thanks for the advice mate! only early days yet but I have been having a look at some of the companies intern programs offered for second, and third year students.

    I should probably stop derailing the thread now...

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Kuppa

    [mod edit]

     

    So much ignorance and misconceptions on this post. I understand criticizing a game and its designs but to insult and moan is pathetic. Everyone thinks they have the solutions for everything and always asks "how could they have done such a thing?!". Before you do that sit down and try to do something remotely similar to see how well that goes.

    There are plenty of developers who do sit down and do something remotely similar. It's called success.

    Instead of actually providing a real rebuttal with logic or rational, you simply insult "this post" (whatever post that may be) by calling them names in what was apparently something so immature a mod had to edit it.

     

    No offense, but some developers aren't human. I'm pretty sure they're all scarecrows stuffed with hundred dollar bills.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by mmoguy43

    OP, you mean like this?

    The majority of developers are in it because they love games and want to make something others enjoy also. If you had the chance to meet and talk with a lot of them you would know this.

    Thank you. Exactly what I mean. Exactly.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    I've never thought that any developers were retarded monkey's jumping on  a keyboard....forum posters on the other hand....hehe.
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    OP

    I think it's unrealistic to judge the intelligence or intent of people on whether their idea is successful after it happens. There are a lot of circumstances outside any one decision that can have an effect on the final outcome.
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Drakynn
    I've never thought that any developers were retarded monkey's jumping on  a keyboard....forum posters on the other hand....hehe.

    +1 :P

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,652Member Uncommon
    No monkeys at our studio, however we do have a Halloween party this Friday at the Atlanta office, so anything is possible at least for one night. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • dreamsofwardreamsofwar bangorPosts: 468Member

    I think developers get called artists sometimes, and games can be seen as art. Unfortunately I don't think it ever fully can be considered art and the developers artists. Artists tend to do what they do because they feel they have something to say or it is a form of expression and they want to create something for the enjoyment of others. Unless I am ignorant concerning art though, throughout history profit has rarely been the motivation for creating a work of art. 

     

    In the gaming industry it is a business. The need to generate the highest profit possible comes before creating that one master piece that a small but loyal base of players can enjoy. So they have to cater to the masses. They have to make tough decisions to ensure players don't get left behind. Hardcore elements get taken out and things get made easier. That is the reality of this business and until a company comes along and makes a game without massive profits in mind I think this trend will continue.

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Phoenix, AZPosts: 823Member Uncommon
    There's a reason the name code monkey's exsists.  The Devs are , usually singular, is a whip in hand supreme overlord that makes the monkeys dance and do his bidding. Unfortunately a game is only as good as the coders they hire.

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  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,939Member Uncommon

    I've had occasion over the last year to watch several videos of various comp game/MMO developer conferences, and frankly, what I have seen totally explains the direction this genre has been going.

    What did the "developers" get excited about? Game systems? Production tools? Talking about building a game for long term success?

    No.

    About 75% of the presentations or more were all about "monetizing" the games successfully and how to structure things to get the maximum amount of sales through in-game cash shops. And even designing most of the aspects the game with that specifically in mind.

    It was and is clear, that many/most of the "mainstream" game developers and their "peer community" do not care about making quality games or want the customer (ya, him) to have an enjoyable experience.

    It was mostly about the money and how to get people to spend more. Not, have more fun.

    Frankly, the quality of the game and the satisfaction of the customer seemed very much a secondary concern at those conferences.

    That being the case, it is not a surprise that the MMO genre has been in the toliet for years, and frankly, the way these kind of people have been running things, that is where it belongs.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,652Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    I've had occasion over the last year to watch several videos of various comp game/MMO developer conferences, and frankly, what I have seen totally explains the direction this genre has been going.

    What did the "developers" get excited about? Game systems? Production tools? Talking about building a game for long term success?

    No.

    About 75% of the presentations or more were all about "monetizing" the games successfully and how to structure things to get the maximum amount of sales through in-game cash shops. And even designing most of the aspects the game with that specifically in mind.

    It was and is clear, that many/most of the "mainstream" game developers and their "peer community" do not care about making quality games or want the customer (ya, him) to have an enjoyable experience.

    It was mostly about the money and how to get people to spend more. Not, have more fun.

    Frankly, the quality of the game and the satisfaction of the customer seemed very much a secondary concern at those conferences.

    That being the case, it is not a surprise that the MMO genre has been in the toliet for years, and frankly, the way these kind of people have been running things, that is where it belongs.

    Can you name one or two of these conferences where 75% of the presentations were on monetization?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    its a proven fact that people who are not playing your game do not spend any money on your game.

     

     

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