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Easy has to go...who asked for easy ? ( Poll )

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  • aphydorkaphydork Boring, ORPosts: 133Member

    You should play Dark Souls. The combat is challenging with interesting encounters. The game does not tell you where to go, and you can go wherever you want. You are punished for dying by losing all the "experience" you've gained but haven't spent up to the point where you died.

    It's only $40 on Steam. Play it with a controller, though.

    But don't expect an MMO to be made like it anytime soon. At least not a AAA MMO. I don't think any publishers would risk that investment, when they can have the whole pie.

    Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in finding an MMO to suit your tastes, because I don't really agree with you. Opening my quest log and Googling where monsters are has never been my idea of fun. I'm sure there are players who agree with you, but, from what I've seen, most gamers are ecstatic that they point you in the direction you have to go. Whenever they add that feature, players breathe a breath of fresh air, like when it was added to Skyrim.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Bad poll, as usual.  I want a game that's challenging to a certain degree, but not utterly frustrating.  After all, I play games to have fun and fill up my spare time.  I want to be able to accomplish something in the time I have available and feel like I did something worthwhile.  A game where you just die over and over and over again is not  fun for me.  A game where I don't have to look at the screen to win isn't fun either.  I want something in the middle, which is not reflected in the poll.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    And the had the same discussions for every other expansion thus far, too.

    Blizzard bounces around like a ping pong ball.  BC--"oops, too much rep grind and atunement mazes, sorry guys".  WoTLK--"oops, we maybe went a tad overboard with the ezmode, sorry guys"  CAT--"oops, we did promise things would be a little rougher, didn't we? sorry guys" MOP=="we'll let you know in a couple of months what folks gripe about this time, kay?"

    Discussion of Blizzard's caving to the masses belongs over on Blizzard's bltchf...er, forums, doesn't it?

    That's called catering to your customers, it's what all companies do.  As the wishes of their  customers changes, they change the game to suit.

    What, would you rather Blizzard say "fuck you bitches, this is what you get, give me your money"?

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • ZefireZefire lol, CAPosts: 676Member
    I like dark souls style
  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,166Member Uncommon

    Blizzard see the end of the road.....people get bored, skipping all content to race to endgame.

    The game is old now, it shows, people do not want to grind for long times anymore like in the early days......they do not want to do 800 quests to get exalted...in the old days gamers actually did that and kept on playing, nowadays they jump off that wagon halfway.

    So to prolongue the lifespan of the game you give the players what they want:

    -let all players level faster, give all races access to the classes, itemshops.....you can see that it's not about adding quality to the game, but it's more about milking some more before it really gets bad.

    They surprised me a bit with that Pandakungfu game though.....that expansion was actually better then the previous ones.

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • VaultarVaultar adelaidePosts: 339Member

    I like it easy. As long as it is fun. 

    Nothing worse than frustrating yourself over really hard game after a long day at work.

    In this day and age when the life is always busy and you have limited time, easy but fun games is the way to go. 

    Only indie developers will ever make hardcore games just because difficult games does not appeal to the mainstream.

     

    Looking forward to EQL and EQN.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by aphydork

    You should play Dark Souls. The combat is challenging with interesting encounters. The game does not tell you where to go, and you can go wherever you want. You are punished for dying by losing all the "experience" you've gained but haven't spent up to the point where you died.

    It's only $40 on Steam. Play it with a controller, though.

    But don't expect an MMO to be made like it anytime soon. At least not a AAA MMO. I don't think any publishers would risk that investment, when they can have the whole pie.

    Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in finding an MMO to suit your tastes, because I don't really agree with you. Opening my quest log and Googling where monsters are has never been my idea of fun. I'm sure there are players who agree with you, but, from what I've seen, most gamers are ecstatic that they point you in the direction you have to go. Whenever they add that feature, players breathe a breath of fresh air, like when it was added to Skyrim.

    I have it on my list on games to play and definately will buy it.  Just busy with other single player games atm, but will definately buy. It seem great.

    Don't know if I would want this combat type in mmorpg though, might be too twitchy-skill based for me for mmorpg. In single player game it might work though.

    As for Skyrim yeah that was a downer.  I liked it much more in Morrowind without those things and markers.  For me it was a breath of bad air if we use this kind of descriptions.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    Dark Souls is easily the most exciting game I've played in years! Heartpumping to say the least. I just need to make it to the next bonfire...!

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • BizkitNLBizkitNL NetherlandsPosts: 2,280Member Common
    Well, there's easy and then there's accessible. 2 things people mix up quite often :).
    10
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Because you expect "finding things" to be a part of gameplay. The real gameplay is killing things. Personally, finding things is boring. I

     

    Real gameplay is more varied than killing things.    Killing is just one part of gameplay.  Personally I find games that have only or almost only boring.

    For rest of your citations. I was going to cite them all and respond but we did discussions like that for multuiple times and I responded around 50 of your lenght posts or answers to mine posts and that would be just repeating it all over again.

    It all basically start from here.   You find my vision of game and gameplay boring and I find your vision boring. 

     

    edit: one more thing.  Never said about drawing whole map yourself.  General map with cities and villages being shown as you uncover it is ok.   Even if absolutely neccesary mini-map with my character marked and enemies my character see marked is bearable.    

    Anything more is boring.  

    well .. it is obvious that killing stuff is popular gameplay. Very many game built on nothing but killing stuff.

    And given the popularity of marking objectives (In both MMO & SP games), i would bet that looking for things, while you like, is not a popular gameplay feature.

    In fact, i would also argue that other gameplay style .. like stealth, or hacking (in sci-fi of course) .. are more popular gameplay than looking for stuff.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon

    Did the OP take a long break from the forums? For the past several years people have been crying to make every single aspect of MMORPGs easier. They got what they asked for.

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon

    When I was younger, I really liked the grind.  I liked logging in everyday, getting on that treadmill, then having that big payoff that very few people achieved.  I stood out, I was admired as I once admired others.

    But now that i'm older, I like the system where I can log into the game 3-4 times a week (or less), play an hour or two, then log off.  I don't want these games to become my life anymore.  I have to much other stuff to do.  I'm perfectly fine with the casual route.

    Besides, good mmos still offer those uber hardcore challenges that only the nerdiest of nerds will compete.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    People have been complaining about hard since day 1, year 0.  It didn't happen because some mythical new weaker mmo gamer demographic moved in.

    This 1000 times!

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    People have been complaining about hard since day 1, year 0.  It didn't happen because some mythical new weaker mmo gamer demographic moved in.

    This 1000 times!

    Why, in my day, you had to farm Alterac Valley for days to save up afk honor to buy a piece of gear!  Do you have any idea how many matches I had to lose to save up the consolation tokens?

    "Junior, was grandpa telling you his 'good old days' stories again?  Nudge him awake, will you?  Dinner's ready."

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Blizzard made WoW easy.

    WoW has been easy since day 1. It was always the most casual MMO on the market and still is.

    Over time, there's always a vocal minority that want things easier. Things are never quite easy enough. So over many years, things have been dumbed down further and further, with no real end in sight, because there will always be a minority that wants it easier.

     

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,944Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Blizzard made WoW easy.

    WoW has been easy since day 1. It was always the most casual MMO on the market and still is.

    Over time, there's always a vocal minority that want things easier. Things are never quite easy enough. So over many years, things have been dumbed down further and further, with no real end in sight, because there will always be a minority that wants it easier.

     

    Are you sure about that ?.....Are you sure that people are really asking for easy, or are the developers just telling us that ?

    Remember :

    Fast leveling = less content needed.

    Fast leveling = Selling expantions faster

    PPl are saying GW2 is big.  Would it really be big if leveling was 99% slower. Just something to think bout !

  • aphydorkaphydork Boring, ORPosts: 133Member

    You are right and wrong.

    Fast leveling means that you need less leveling content, but you need more end content to keep people occupied. When leveling is slow, developers have more time to develop end content. If everyone hits level cap in 1-2 weeks, you have to either: have a satisfactory amount of end content to keep people occupied until you develop more, or pump out end content quickly.

    New games are kind of screwed, because the pace has been set by MMOs that have had way more time to develop end content. If they make leveling slower, they risk losing people to "grind." If they keep the pace set by other MMOs, they need to be ready to race players in pumping out content faster than people can get bored of.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by aphydork

    New games are kind of screwed...If they keep the pace set by other MMOs, they need to be ready to race players in pumping out content faster than people can get bored of.

    Almost.  "Completely screwed" is the most reproducable result of the last eight years.  But here at mmorpg.com, this non-stop bitching is clearly what we do best.  The IPOD's still have the loudest voices--if you listen to 'em, anyway.

    Of course, the alternative (this month) is "let's give Smed one more chance at our cash!"  Um..cheer?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Because you expect "finding things" to be a part of gameplay. The real gameplay is killing things. Personally, finding things is boring. I

     

    Real gameplay is more varied than killing things.    Killing is just one part of gameplay.  Personally I find games that have only or almost only boring.

    For rest of your citations. I was going to cite them all and respond but we did discussions like that for multuiple times and I responded around 50 of your lenght posts or answers to mine posts and that would be just repeating it all over again.

    It all basically start from here.   You find my vision of game and gameplay boring and I find your vision boring. 

     

    edit: one more thing.  Never said about drawing whole map yourself.  General map with cities and villages being shown as you uncover it is ok.   Even if absolutely neccesary mini-map with my character marked and enemies my character see marked is bearable.    

    Anything more is boring.  

    well .. it is obvious that killing stuff is popular gameplay. Very many game built on nothing but killing stuff.

    And given the popularity of marking objectives (In both MMO & SP games), i would bet that looking for things, while you like, is not a popular gameplay feature.

    In fact, i would also argue that other gameplay style .. like stealth, or hacking (in sci-fi of course) .. are more popular gameplay than looking for stuff.

    Propably.  I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things.   When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.

    When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.

    Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing.    Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    Propably.  I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things.   When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.

    When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.

    Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing.    Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.

    I don't think stealth can be well in a MMO though. It probably can work in an instance with limited number of playres (co-op stealth for some objective .. somethign like one guy sneak around, one doing sniping support ?)

    I like how hacking is done in Deus Ex. There is *some* reasonable mini-type gameplay, there is progression, and the hacking result can be tied to combat (like take over a turret/robot), and stealth (turn off alarm/camera).

    May be a instanced base game with hacking/stealth/sniping as the new trinity?

    I think it is not only killing = popular is driving the "going to the marked location" gameplay. It is also the UNpopularity of finding things. You do see a lot of resources going into collecting stuff (like pets and mounts) because it is also a popular gameplay element.

     

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    Propably.  I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things.   When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.

    When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.

    Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing.    Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.

    I don't think stealth can be well in a MMO though. It probably can work in an instance with limited number of playres (co-op stealth for some objective .. somethign like one guy sneak around, one doing sniping support ?)

    I like how hacking is done in Deus Ex. There is *some* reasonable mini-type gameplay, there is progression, and the hacking result can be tied to combat (like take over a turret/robot), and stealth (turn off alarm/camera).

    May be a instanced base game with hacking/stealth/sniping as the new trinity?

    I think it is not only killing = popular is driving the "going to the marked location" gameplay. It is also the UNpopularity of finding things. You do see a lot of resources going into collecting stuff (like pets and mounts) because it is also a popular gameplay element.

     

    Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

    Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

    Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

     

    Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

    I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by delete5230

    who asked for easy?

    Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.

    They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.

    They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?

     

    You're probably vastly underestimating, more like 100-1, but the fact is, most of the people who asked for "easy" weren't looking for "fall asleep at the keyboard and win anyhow" as many people seem to think, they just didn't want to spend their time being frustrated at games that just couldn't be won by a person of average skill.  I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".

    It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • SimphanaticSimphanatic Marion, IAPosts: 92Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".

    It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.

    Mitt !!! I didn't know you were a gamer. Way to go buddy. How 'bout that 47% ?

  • aphydorkaphydork Boring, ORPosts: 133Member

    We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."

    Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.

    What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.

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