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The worst arguments against FFA PVP
Biskop
Member UncommonPosts: 709
It seems to me that whenever a game is being made that does not feature a 100% safe world wherein PVE is the main focus, the woodwork comes alive with infuriated gamers. Some of them seems to be deeply hurt by the fact that the game in question is not catering to their particular tastes, others just want to vent some frustration about FFA PVP and PVPers in general, and yet others seem to want to teach the devs how to earn more money by adapting to the mainstream market instead of following their own vision.
The same old arguments always return, however, and it's fascinating to see how they're recycled despite being so shallow and baseless. Some of them are based only on prejudices, but are often touted as fact anyway. Most of them are extremely stupid and also insulting.
Let me list my favorites (in no particular order):
"People who play FFA PVP games are sociopaths"
This is a very common misconception, based on a failure to distinguish the difference between a virtual world and the real world. People who think every FFA PVPer is acting out his irl self in the game are beyond delusional; if this argument was valid, you could also claim that PVE players enjoy slaughtering endless amounts of innocent boars and spiders irl, or that someone playing the market in WoW is a shrewd capitalist irl - or simply that so-called carebears are all spineless cowards irl.
I think it's not only stupid but utterly insulting to imply that a whole subset of the MMO community consists of sociopaths, just because they happen to enjoy a different style of games than you.
"People who play FFA PVP games are cowards"
This argument is related the preceeding one, but while the sociopath angle comes from hobby psychologists spouting armchair diagnoses, this one is the result of a more moralist view. Some people seem to be under the illusion that PVP should be somehow "fair" and "balanced", and that anyone who has learned to use tactics, terrain, numbers, abilities, experience or anything else to their advantage, is a coward who are afraid of a "fair" fight.
In short, this is scrub reasoning. The bottom line here is that PVP is about winning the fight, not roleplaying a knight in shining armor. Bringing some friends, knowing the terrain, getting the jump on people, etc, is all part of the game.
Those who use the "coward" argument should just stick to their MOBAS, BGs or WOW duelling.
"FFA PVP games are nothing but gankfests"
This is my personal favorite. Not only does it reek of hurting butts, it also illustrates some people's total lack of understanding of how FFA PVP works. What the hell does "gankfest" even mean?
First of all, the term "ganking" is now widely misused. No longer does it mean a group of people killing a lone adversary, but rather just killing someone in general. In a way, the "gankfest" argument is just as moralistic as the "coward" argument - it's rooted in the idea that open world, non-consensual PVP is somehow unfair and that a game in which unprepared, ungeared, or unexperienced players might die at the hand of another player automatically turn into "gankfests".
The root of the problem here is that many people confuse the FFA logic with the themepark logic. They believe that farming mobs/harvesting/questing in peace is some sort of human right, and that getting killed by another player while doing it constitutes an infringement of this human right. What they fail to realize is that the whole point of a FFA game is that the world is not 100% safe and that the game should be played accordingly.
If that's not your cup of tea, play some other game. You've got plenty to chose from.
"FFA PVP is a griefer's paradise"
While griefing of course happens in FFA games, it would be very naïve to think that PVE games are somehow safe from it. As a matter of fact, griefing can be much worse in games like WOW, where someone can harrass you in many ways without you being able to do anything about it. If the same situation occurs in a FFA game, you have the freedom to kill the harrasser, take his stuff, burn down his house and harrass his guild in multiple ways.
In other words: yes, FFA PVP is a griefer's paradise, but so are all multiplayer games. In FFA games the griefer has to be a competent and dedicated player to get away with his griefing.
"FFA PVP games are not commercially successful, which means they are bad"
Probably the worst argument ever. First of all, it's just false. EVE is one of the most successful MMOs of all time, with a strong player retention and a very active development - despite being an almost ten years old niche FFA game. DayZ, a buggy FFA mod (with permadeath) for a buggy military simulator, has attracted over a million players to date, a standalone is in the works and the WarZ, a simliar game from another dev, is getting loads of attention as we speak. Darkfall: Unholy Wars is another upcoming FFA title with a lot of hype.
So, it seems FFA games can attract quite a substantial audience. But even if the above argument was based on facts, it would be false. All games do not need WoW-like numbers to be successful, and a product can be extremely qualitative without being a mainstream hit - otherwise we would all be eating at McDonald's read Twilight books, and watch Hollywood movies exclusively.
FFA is not for everyone, but its audience is not as small as some people like to claim.
"This game would be great if it had a PVE server"
This argument usually comes from people who claim to be sandbox players. They want "a game like this" just without the FFA PVP, and so they come to the forums of said game clamoring for a PVE server, hoping that the devs will suddenly change their development focus just because these players want them to.
It is a very stupid argument and shows a total lack of understanding for game development. Usually the reasoning goes like this: "adding a PVE server is very easy and would not impact the PVP server in any way, so why are you guys so against it?"
Well, to begin with it's not that easy. A separate PVE server would require a lot of the devs' (often limited) resources, since it would differ in fundamental ways from the PVP server. A FFA game's whole core systems are built around PVP, so just changing them is no trivial matter. Designing and coding a separate ruleset for a game that is not designed for said ruleset would be a terrible waste of time and effort, and for what? So that people who don't even like the game to begin with can play it?
No, some gamers need to realize that games exist that do not cater to them - and never will. If you don't enjoy FFA PVP, don't play FFA PVP games. To each his own. You don't see FFA enthusiasts coming into the LOTRO forums demanding a FFA server, now do you?
"The devs will want to make money, so why don't they just remove the FFA PVP and attract more players?"
This line of reasoning is usually accompanied by some hobby economics bullshit, and just goes to show that sadly, many people believe money is the ultimate be-all end-all and that anyone not pursuing ultimate profit rates is out of his mind. These people can not understand that some devs primarily want to make a good game, a game they want to play, not make shitloads of money.
Of course, most devs need to make some money, or the game will die. But as mentioned above, all games do not need to have WOW-like numbers to be successful. Removing FFA and catering to the mainstream would be contrary to the core philosophy behind a game like DF, DayZ or Salem. It would not be the same game.
Also, it annoys me that some random forum people have the gall to try and tell devs (who have usually spent years developing the game) how to run their business - as if these entitled, spoiled, selfish internet brats knew better what the game in question needs. This of course goes for a lot of badly thought-out, opinionated bullshit floating around the gaming community, not only regarding FFA PVP games but games in general.
Well that's all folks. Please feel free to add your own examples of prejudices, failed reasoning and bad arguments!
Comments
Very, very good post OP and pretty much nailed it.
There are of though ofc a few solid arguments for people to use against FFA pvp, at least as to why they have no interest in it.
E-Sport PVP:
If you are only seeking specific, equal team size, e-sport style pvp which is completely and utterly about small team combat and zero macro scale factors then clearly FFA pvp will hold little interest for you.
Only enjoying pvp as and when you choose:
Well that shouldn't really need explaining. Some people simply don't want to be pvp "on" all the time.
Accessibility:
FFA pvp is not always that accessible in so much as it doesn't give 100% certain pvp on tap.
As you say though, many people instead of stating one of the quite reasonable arguments above, revert to simplistic attacks on the style of pvp and the players taking part in it. Which demonstrates both a lack of understanding of the core concept and something of a pissy attitude.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Let me be a devil advocate hereand try to defend those arguments
"People who play FFA PVP games are sociopaths" - This ones is true to one distinct type of players. To call them pvpers though is misleading, real pvpers enjoy challenge they love to fight other peoples becouse they are far smarter and more dangerouse than any AI yet created but this guys don't want to fight others for challenge, they just want to make others feel as bad as possible, it's aparent in EVE. They are minority but very vocal and visible minority. From this misonceptions are born that all pvpers are like that. True pvpers are usually far more deadly and far less vocal
"People who play FFA PVP games are cowards" - This one is about same type of niche "pvpers" as previous ones. Those guys never fight when the outcome isn't 100% decided before fight even begins. As you mentioned EVE this is visible when "pirate" gang camp gate and hostile fleet with decent numbers shows up they all run for the hills even if they have 50/50 chance of winning or more. Hell the 5-6 guys sometimes run from 2-3 guys if they notice they are prepared for fight and want to fight.
"FFA PVP games are nothing but gankfests" - As all above this mostly is misconception created by this group of peoples that love to spawn camp, noob zone camp and such for the "tears". This happens often enough and on scale big enough to create such arguments. It's far more visible when 5-10 players gang of max level run around noob zones killing everything than small scale pvp going on everywhere. Most gamers aren't stubborn enough to go beyond such experience and discover true game they quit with "it's gankfest" comment.
"FFA PVP is a griefer's paradise" - It's easier for this minority to "extract tears" in FFA PVP game and do it on larger scale so it's more apparent in this games thats why this argument got born. It can happen anywhere yes but easier to do so on mass scale here. In pve games such guys are staling one guy, kill steal his mobs and such, but it's usually one griefer one victim scenario.
"FFA PVP games are not commercially successful, which means they are bad" - no counter arguments here. All types have it's own audience so...
"This game would be great if it had a PVE server" - same no counter arguments here, moslty such ffa pvp games have not enough other content to be viable with only pve, especially not enough cash sinks to make crafting fully viable profession on long run, also lack of other content make them boring as hell very fast.
"The devs will want to make money, so why don't they just remove the FFA PVP and attract more players?" - This is same argument as above just stated in diffrent way
Retired EVE player (7 years in same game was more than enough) so my counter arguments are mostly based from this one but not exclusively.
Because most ffa games just don't do gear that way AT ALL.
I've rubbed against far more "interesting" personality types during my misguided year or so of heavyish raiding back in vanilla wow than I ever have in pvp guilds.
People who don't like something will always find arguments, often good and valid, to convey their dislike.
To be honest, I couldn't care less. Let them cry. It feeds my soul. I may be a sociopatch & a coward, if you wish to call me that, but I'll *always* experience more joy from killing someone who feels they should be left alone in a ffa/pvp environment.
This is as well written a post as I've seen on these forums; all the points ring true. The detractors, of course, will disagree and find counters to the points you made, OP; that's fine, as opinions vary. I, however, will consider their opinions to be a product of hallucinogenic party favors and disregard them completely.
Here's my take, all based off of the three years I spent in Darkfall:
1. I play Darkfall, and I'm not a sociopath.
2. Those guys jumping into Aradoth solo to fight 10 people at once are not cowards. To ttake it further, there are a LOT of military veterans I've met (myself included) who play Darkfall. Guarantee we're not cowards.
3. "Gankfest" is soooo six years ago.
4. There are ways to fight the griefer. Unless that griefer and bindcamper is Scrubby Bear - then you're pretty much screwed.
5. The common perception is really "FFA PVP games scare the crap out of me, so they are bad."
6. No. No PVE server. Just no.
7. No again.
I suppose that's my TL:DR. Again, brilliantly written and executed piece there. Should be on MMORPG.com's mandatory reading list. Kudos.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
This.
FFA PvP is an awesome system in concept, it is just too easily abused.From my own experience I have seen the majority of childish comments and the default "insult mode" tends to come from the PVE crowd.
Funnily enough in terms of pvp, the worst "crowds" I have ever witnessed tend to be in arena/instanced pvp games/sections of games.
That said you get bad eggs in every single type of game, which is why I wouldn't come out and try and generalise any specific community as "bad" or "childish".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I have nothing against FFA PvP as such, but I dont really think that PvP games have the consequences right.
You cant just go out and randomly kill people IRL, or you can but there will be consequences. If if you live in Mogadishu or another unsafe place there will still be consequences. Problem is that NPC cityguards or guardtowers arent really a big deal.
A western FFA PvP MMO where bountyhunters and sheriffs hunt outlaws would probably work fine, as long as you have the right ratio between the players.
A fantasy MMO where everyone can murder people everywhere with little consequenses on the other hand gets pretty boring fast, particularly one with a big gap between noobs and vets.
A gangwar gangster MMO set during the 20s could also be fun, but there you really dont want to be caught killing members of your own gang.
And of course not all MMO PvPers are sociopaths, that are just the people constantly griefing noobs just for the fun of it.
But the real problem is that in the real world you actually can get killed or jailed for a long time and that is really bad, in MMOs you respawn fast with often little penalties. Murdering people in MMO should be something that you do more as a last resort or during war than something you walk around and do all day out of boredom.
Wanted to address those two as they are more about the player not understnading how the game is played than any actual problem with the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
The problem with FFA PVP isn't that its not a fair fight or that its a gankfest.
The problem is that in (popular) FFA PVP the motivation to PVP is 90% loot, 9% for the lulz and 1% for other reasons.
FFA PVP is a robbery with homicide simulator, no wonder that people think its for sociopaths.
FFA PVP simulations don't behave like real life does in areas where they should, so people recoil from them.
My beef with this style of pvp is mostly that it takes another type of play to get into. Basically I have to relearn the game (or go into it woth another mindset from the get-go) and make it all about pvp. Give me an fps any day, because I don't like twitch button mashing, where I have to play so much I have to get my muscle memory good enough and I can hit all the right buttons on the right times...
Only FFA pvp (in the right meaning, not the full loot crap) I enjoyed was TERA, where it mattered where you moved and you didn't have over 100 skills.
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
This one has always cracked me up.
- Your gamestyle makes me angry and annoyed ergo my armchair psychology tells me you must be a sociopath for enjoying something I don't
That's pretty much the mindset of somebody who couldn't form a coherent thought, even when trying really hard. I've seen a few posters fall into that category
As for everything else written It's pretty much spot on. FFA PvP could easily be commercially successful. You just have to find the right balance between punishment of dying and the excitement of PvP. So far I haven't seen it happen but fully acknowledge it could. You just have to ignore the hardcore crowd a little
Screw loot :P I played pvp games (faction based though) where one would get stats (free to allocate) for kills. Although it did create an imbalance between someone with 200k kills and someone with just 15, but nothing 2 equally geared people with 15 kills couldn't handle. PvP should be about kills and a little objectives, not mostly objectives. (and I'm rambling again...)
There was risk involved though, you could lose stuff from your inventory or equipped ones (latter had a low chance, but a chance nontheless), except when using the cash shop...
And in regard to my last post: I played this game purely for the pvp, so no comments on my contradicting myself.
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
Since the beginning of gaming in general, we have been beating the enemy and taking their spoils. Might as well call us ALL sociopaths and crook potentials.
I fail to understand what your final quip was about. Do you disagree most of the engagements are ganks or what?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Nice post, well said, so many people I do see make it PVE, bleh, bleh, well the thing is they have games that are PVE, WOW, SWTOR, etc.
The person who like hardcore are people like us, and we have very few games, so they need to learn to leave our games alone, they have enough of there own games, they want to control everything and complain thats the problem with games. I'm glad devs like DFO, ignore them because with out that we wouldn't have hardcore games, I'm a newer Dev and the games I have thought about making and have started years ago, have Permadeath in it, and I know some people woulde freak out and say WHY!!.
Well guess what its a wild west , with out hangings and bounty hunter system, FFA PVP, that game would suck... So people need to understand there is alot who like FFA PVP and will continue to like it actually I think more people like it, look at UO, and Asheron call 1 Darktide, I loved FFA PVP in AC, and miss it.
Just to clearfy i'm not a griefer in any way I 'm anti PK, I love killing people who grief and kill the weak, thats what I find to be fun, so not all of us grief, so thats the problem, also players get attached to there stuff way to much, if the game goes offline , you lose those pixels, in games with FFA PVP, you lose those pixels, who cares they come and go, most items in these games are easy to obtain so I don't get why people get some butt hurt, I know its ego, but learn to get rid of the ego, its gonna happen to the best PVPers and the worst.
And at the end of the day you see just how many FFA PVP games there are out there...and how crappy they are doing.
Thanks OP, thanks alot for reminding us of the crap that is FFA PVP. I forgot about that niche genre.
Good riddance.