Blizzard see the end of the road.....people get bored, skipping all content to race to endgame.
The game is old now, it shows, people do not want to grind for long times anymore like in the early days......they do not want to do 800 quests to get exalted...in the old days gamers actually did that and kept on playing, nowadays they jump off that wagon halfway.
So to prolongue the lifespan of the game you give the players what they want:
-let all players level faster, give all races access to the classes, itemshops.....you can see that it's not about adding quality to the game, but it's more about milking some more before it really gets bad.
They surprised me a bit with that Pandakungfu game though.....that expansion was actually better then the previous ones.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
You should play Dark Souls. The combat is challenging with interesting encounters. The game does not tell you where to go, and you can go wherever you want. You are punished for dying by losing all the "experience" you've gained but haven't spent up to the point where you died.
It's only $40 on Steam. Play it with a controller, though.
But don't expect an MMO to be made like it anytime soon. At least not a AAA MMO. I don't think any publishers would risk that investment, when they can have the whole pie.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in finding an MMO to suit your tastes, because I don't really agree with you. Opening my quest log and Googling where monsters are has never been my idea of fun. I'm sure there are players who agree with you, but, from what I've seen, most gamers are ecstatic that they point you in the direction you have to go. Whenever they add that feature, players breathe a breath of fresh air, like when it was added to Skyrim.
I have it on my list on games to play and definately will buy it. Just busy with other single player games atm, but will definately buy. It seem great.
Don't know if I would want this combat type in mmorpg though, might be too twitchy-skill based for me for mmorpg. In single player game it might work though.
As for Skyrim yeah that was a downer. I liked it much more in Morrowind without those things and markers. For me it was a breath of bad air if we use this kind of descriptions.
Because you expect "finding things" to be a part of gameplay. The real gameplay is killing things. Personally, finding things is boring. I
Real gameplay is more varied than killing things. Killing is just one part of gameplay. Personally I find games that have only or almost only boring.
For rest of your citations. I was going to cite them all and respond but we did discussions like that for multuiple times and I responded around 50 of your lenght posts or answers to mine posts and that would be just repeating it all over again.
It all basically start from here. You find my vision of game and gameplay boring and I find your vision boring.
edit: one more thing. Never said about drawing whole map yourself. General map with cities and villages being shown as you uncover it is ok. Even if absolutely neccesary mini-map with my character marked and enemies my character see marked is bearable.
Anything more is boring.
well .. it is obvious that killing stuff is popular gameplay. Very many game built on nothing but killing stuff.
And given the popularity of marking objectives (In both MMO & SP games), i would bet that looking for things, while you like, is not a popular gameplay feature.
In fact, i would also argue that other gameplay style .. like stealth, or hacking (in sci-fi of course) .. are more popular gameplay than looking for stuff.
Did the OP take a long break from the forums? For the past several years people have been crying to make every single aspect of MMORPGs easier. They got what they asked for.
When I was younger, I really liked the grind. I liked logging in everyday, getting on that treadmill, then having that big payoff that very few people achieved. I stood out, I was admired as I once admired others.
But now that i'm older, I like the system where I can log into the game 3-4 times a week (or less), play an hour or two, then log off. I don't want these games to become my life anymore. I have to much other stuff to do. I'm perfectly fine with the casual route.
Besides, good mmos still offer those uber hardcore challenges that only the nerdiest of nerds will compete.
Originally posted by Torvaldr People have been complaining about hard since day 1, year 0. It didn't happen because some mythical new weaker mmo gamer demographic moved in.
This 1000 times!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Originally posted by Torvaldr People have been complaining about hard since day 1, year 0. It didn't happen because some mythical new weaker mmo gamer demographic moved in.
This 1000 times!
Why, in my day, you had to farm Alterac Valley for days to save up afk honor to buy a piece of gear! Do you have any idea how many matches I had to lose to save up the consolation tokens?
"Junior, was grandpa telling you his 'good old days' stories again? Nudge him awake, will you? Dinner's ready."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
WoW has been easy since day 1. It was always the most casual MMO on the market and still is.
Over time, there's always a vocal minority that want things easier. Things are never quite easy enough. So over many years, things have been dumbed down further and further, with no real end in sight, because there will always be a minority that wants it easier.
WoW has been easy since day 1. It was always the most casual MMO on the market and still is.
Over time, there's always a vocal minority that want things easier. Things are never quite easy enough. So over many years, things have been dumbed down further and further, with no real end in sight, because there will always be a minority that wants it easier.
Are you sure about that ?.....Are you sure that people are really asking for easy, or are the developers just telling us that ?
Remember :
Fast leveling = less content needed.
Fast leveling = Selling expantions faster
PPl are saying GW2 is big. Would it really be big if leveling was 99% slower. Just something to think bout !
Fast leveling means that you need less leveling content, but you need more end content to keep people occupied. When leveling is slow, developers have more time to develop end content. If everyone hits level cap in 1-2 weeks, you have to either: have a satisfactory amount of end content to keep people occupied until you develop more, or pump out end content quickly.
New games are kind of screwed, because the pace has been set by MMOs that have had way more time to develop end content. If they make leveling slower, they risk losing people to "grind." If they keep the pace set by other MMOs, they need to be ready to race players in pumping out content faster than people can get bored of.
New games are kind of screwed...If they keep the pace set by other MMOs, they need to be ready to race players in pumping out content faster than people can get bored of.
Almost. "Completely screwed" is the most reproducable result of the last eight years. But here at mmorpg.com, this non-stop bitching is clearly what we do best. The IPOD's still have the loudest voices--if you listen to 'em, anyway.
Of course, the alternative (this month) is "let's give Smed one more chance at our cash!" Um..cheer?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Because you expect "finding things" to be a part of gameplay. The real gameplay is killing things. Personally, finding things is boring. I
Real gameplay is more varied than killing things. Killing is just one part of gameplay. Personally I find games that have only or almost only boring.
For rest of your citations. I was going to cite them all and respond but we did discussions like that for multuiple times and I responded around 50 of your lenght posts or answers to mine posts and that would be just repeating it all over again.
It all basically start from here. You find my vision of game and gameplay boring and I find your vision boring.
edit: one more thing. Never said about drawing whole map yourself. General map with cities and villages being shown as you uncover it is ok. Even if absolutely neccesary mini-map with my character marked and enemies my character see marked is bearable.
Anything more is boring.
well .. it is obvious that killing stuff is popular gameplay. Very many game built on nothing but killing stuff.
And given the popularity of marking objectives (In both MMO & SP games), i would bet that looking for things, while you like, is not a popular gameplay feature.
In fact, i would also argue that other gameplay style .. like stealth, or hacking (in sci-fi of course) .. are more popular gameplay than looking for stuff.
Propably. I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things. When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.
When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.
Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing. Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.
Propably. I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things. When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.
When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.
Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing. Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.
I don't think stealth can be well in a MMO though. It probably can work in an instance with limited number of playres (co-op stealth for some objective .. somethign like one guy sneak around, one doing sniping support ?)
I like how hacking is done in Deus Ex. There is *some* reasonable mini-type gameplay, there is progression, and the hacking result can be tied to combat (like take over a turret/robot), and stealth (turn off alarm/camera).
May be a instanced base game with hacking/stealth/sniping as the new trinity?
I think it is not only killing = popular is driving the "going to the marked location" gameplay. It is also the UNpopularity of finding things. You do see a lot of resources going into collecting stuff (like pets and mounts) because it is also a popular gameplay element.
Propably. I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things. When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.
When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.
Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing. Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.
I don't think stealth can be well in a MMO though. It probably can work in an instance with limited number of playres (co-op stealth for some objective .. somethign like one guy sneak around, one doing sniping support ?)
I like how hacking is done in Deus Ex. There is *some* reasonable mini-type gameplay, there is progression, and the hacking result can be tied to combat (like take over a turret/robot), and stealth (turn off alarm/camera).
May be a instanced base game with hacking/stealth/sniping as the new trinity?
I think it is not only killing = popular is driving the "going to the marked location" gameplay. It is also the UNpopularity of finding things. You do see a lot of resources going into collecting stuff (like pets and mounts) because it is also a popular gameplay element.
Oh finding stuff was just an one element. There are many more non-combat things. Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.
Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.
Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games. Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.
Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.
I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.
Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.
They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.
They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?
You're probably vastly underestimating, more like 100-1, but the fact is, most of the people who asked for "easy" weren't looking for "fall asleep at the keyboard and win anyhow" as many people seem to think, they just didn't want to spend their time being frustrated at games that just couldn't be won by a person of average skill. I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".
It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.
I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".
It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.
Mitt !!! I didn't know you were a gamer. Way to go buddy. How 'bout that 47% ?
We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."
Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.
What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.
Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.
They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?
You're probably vastly underestimating, more like 100-1, but the fact is, most of the people who asked for "easy" weren't looking for "fall asleep at the keyboard and win anyhow" as many people seem to think, they just didn't want to spend their time being frustrated at games that just couldn't be won by a person of average skill. I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".
It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.
Do you really believe what are you writing?
Besides it is YOU who wrote about super hardcore games. Who want super hardcore? Majority of posters here seem to want more difficult and not impossibly difficult.
You're either on purpose or not try to create some kind of dichotomy where there are only 'normal players' and 'super hardcore no-life elitists that want content that will be beatable only by 0,5 % of players'.
Wrong.
I want little bit more challange, especially in open world, but first of all I just don't want everything given to me on a silver platter (quest gps) and game that is revolved around very fast levelling and lobby-like insatnce gridning at so called 'end-game'.
So here's a question: how many of you who cry about games being too easy workout? And by working out, I don't mean pussy treadmill walking, I mean marathons or actual weight lifting (not bicep curls, tricep curls, and other stupid shit, I mean bench press, deadlifts, back squats, overhead squats, cleans, etc.).
I don't think many of you do, otherwise you wouldn't be screaming "MAKE MMOS HARDER CAUSE I GOT NOTHING ELSE HARD IN MAH LIFE". -_____- This is pathetic. Every time I come onto these boards and read some of the topics, I honestly feel ashamed for once being a hardcore nerd, no wonder nerds have such horribad stereotypes.
Comments
Blizzard see the end of the road.....people get bored, skipping all content to race to endgame.
The game is old now, it shows, people do not want to grind for long times anymore like in the early days......they do not want to do 800 quests to get exalted...in the old days gamers actually did that and kept on playing, nowadays they jump off that wagon halfway.
So to prolongue the lifespan of the game you give the players what they want:
-let all players level faster, give all races access to the classes, itemshops.....you can see that it's not about adding quality to the game, but it's more about milking some more before it really gets bad.
They surprised me a bit with that Pandakungfu game though.....that expansion was actually better then the previous ones.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I like it easy. As long as it is fun.
Nothing worse than frustrating yourself over really hard game after a long day at work.
In this day and age when the life is always busy and you have limited time, easy but fun games is the way to go.
Only indie developers will ever make hardcore games just because difficult games does not appeal to the mainstream.
Looking forward to EQL and EQN.
I have it on my list on games to play and definately will buy it. Just busy with other single player games atm, but will definately buy. It seem great.
Don't know if I would want this combat type in mmorpg though, might be too twitchy-skill based for me for mmorpg. In single player game it might work though.
As for Skyrim yeah that was a downer. I liked it much more in Morrowind without those things and markers. For me it was a breath of bad air if we use this kind of descriptions.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
well .. it is obvious that killing stuff is popular gameplay. Very many game built on nothing but killing stuff.
And given the popularity of marking objectives (In both MMO & SP games), i would bet that looking for things, while you like, is not a popular gameplay feature.
In fact, i would also argue that other gameplay style .. like stealth, or hacking (in sci-fi of course) .. are more popular gameplay than looking for stuff.
Did the OP take a long break from the forums? For the past several years people have been crying to make every single aspect of MMORPGs easier. They got what they asked for.
When I was younger, I really liked the grind. I liked logging in everyday, getting on that treadmill, then having that big payoff that very few people achieved. I stood out, I was admired as I once admired others.
But now that i'm older, I like the system where I can log into the game 3-4 times a week (or less), play an hour or two, then log off. I don't want these games to become my life anymore. I have to much other stuff to do. I'm perfectly fine with the casual route.
Besides, good mmos still offer those uber hardcore challenges that only the nerdiest of nerds will compete.
This 1000 times!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Why, in my day, you had to farm Alterac Valley for days to save up afk honor to buy a piece of gear! Do you have any idea how many matches I had to lose to save up the consolation tokens?
"Junior, was grandpa telling you his 'good old days' stories again? Nudge him awake, will you? Dinner's ready."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
WoW has been easy since day 1. It was always the most casual MMO on the market and still is.
Over time, there's always a vocal minority that want things easier. Things are never quite easy enough. So over many years, things have been dumbed down further and further, with no real end in sight, because there will always be a minority that wants it easier.
Are you sure about that ?.....Are you sure that people are really asking for easy, or are the developers just telling us that ?
Remember :
Fast leveling = less content needed.
Fast leveling = Selling expantions faster
PPl are saying GW2 is big. Would it really be big if leveling was 99% slower. Just something to think bout !
You are right and wrong.
Fast leveling means that you need less leveling content, but you need more end content to keep people occupied. When leveling is slow, developers have more time to develop end content. If everyone hits level cap in 1-2 weeks, you have to either: have a satisfactory amount of end content to keep people occupied until you develop more, or pump out end content quickly.
New games are kind of screwed, because the pace has been set by MMOs that have had way more time to develop end content. If they make leveling slower, they risk losing people to "grind." If they keep the pace set by other MMOs, they need to be ready to race players in pumping out content faster than people can get bored of.
Almost. "Completely screwed" is the most reproducable result of the last eight years. But here at mmorpg.com, this non-stop bitching is clearly what we do best. The IPOD's still have the loudest voices--if you listen to 'em, anyway.
Of course, the alternative (this month) is "let's give Smed one more chance at our cash!" Um..cheer?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Propably. I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things. When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.
When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.
Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing. Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.
I don't think stealth can be well in a MMO though. It probably can work in an instance with limited number of playres (co-op stealth for some objective .. somethign like one guy sneak around, one doing sniping support ?)
I like how hacking is done in Deus Ex. There is *some* reasonable mini-type gameplay, there is progression, and the hacking result can be tied to combat (like take over a turret/robot), and stealth (turn off alarm/camera).
May be a instanced base game with hacking/stealth/sniping as the new trinity?
I think it is not only killing = popular is driving the "going to the marked location" gameplay. It is also the UNpopularity of finding things. You do see a lot of resources going into collecting stuff (like pets and mounts) because it is also a popular gameplay element.
Oh finding stuff was just an one element. There are many more non-combat things. Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.
Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.
Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games. Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.
Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.
I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.
Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.
They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You're probably vastly underestimating, more like 100-1, but the fact is, most of the people who asked for "easy" weren't looking for "fall asleep at the keyboard and win anyhow" as many people seem to think, they just didn't want to spend their time being frustrated at games that just couldn't be won by a person of average skill. I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".
It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Mitt !!! I didn't know you were a gamer. Way to go buddy. How 'bout that 47% ?
We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."
Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.
What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.
Do you really believe what are you writing?
Besides it is YOU who wrote about super hardcore games. Who want super hardcore? Majority of posters here seem to want more difficult and not impossibly difficult.
You're either on purpose or not try to create some kind of dichotomy where there are only 'normal players' and 'super hardcore no-life elitists that want content that will be beatable only by 0,5 % of players'.
Wrong.
I want little bit more challange, especially in open world, but first of all I just don't want everything given to me on a silver platter (quest gps) and game that is revolved around very fast levelling and lobby-like insatnce gridning at so called 'end-game'.
So here's a question: how many of you who cry about games being too easy workout? And by working out, I don't mean pussy treadmill walking, I mean marathons or actual weight lifting (not bicep curls, tricep curls, and other stupid shit, I mean bench press, deadlifts, back squats, overhead squats, cleans, etc.).
I don't think many of you do, otherwise you wouldn't be screaming "MAKE MMOS HARDER CAUSE I GOT NOTHING ELSE HARD IN MAH LIFE". -_____- This is pathetic. Every time I come onto these boards and read some of the topics, I honestly feel ashamed for once being a hardcore nerd, no wonder nerds have such horribad stereotypes.