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Originally posted by Burntvet Originally posted by Thorqemada Originally posted by Burntvet Originally posted by Vorthanion Originally posted by Olgark SOE can't make a decent sandbox game they proved it with the mess up that was SWG and their NGE patch.
This is wrong - what led to the downfall of SWG (the shrinking in player numbers) was that they used wrong metrics and did ignore their playerbase to get the mystical "bigger one" out of nowhere.
SWG did in fact grow until SOE decided to fire up the jedi (holo)grind what led to the destruction of the community and a first reduction of their playerbase. Its somewhere beyond the 47 minute mark in this inteview with Raph Koster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifhmDVWszbQ
CU and NGE were total ignorance on the SOE side and the NGE is the biggest debacle in the history of MMOs up to today and why there is so much doubt when SOE is involved.
I have seen that video previously, and I have seen the MMOCharts.com numbers for the time right before the NGE.
In response, I suggest you go read the infamous "om-nom-nom" Rubenfeld blog in it's entirity... but here are the bits that are the key:
Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we fucked it up to the point of having 200k subs. And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.
WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky.
We told them. “If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.” It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.
That is as close as anyone is going to get on the thinking inside SOE while they were doing the NGE. Even if the numbers were double, it would not have been enough, because WoW was already over a million by then.
Like I said, Smed got WoW Fever.
And SOE did not give a crap about losing every, single paying customer they had at that point, and they knew it ahead of time and did not care. (Paying Customers, mind you. Many players, for years)
THAT is what you need to remember about SOE... as the customer, you are NOTHING to them.
Seriously who cares, get over it already.You wont be playing any SOE games that's fine and your choice but most here could not care less about butt hurt SOE haters. I played SWG and had the hump when it all went down but that was years ago and my life has moved on lol.
I think SOE is learned, finally, that creating one flagship MMO in an attempt to crush WoW in terms of sub numbers is unrealistic, and would rather create multiple, successful in their own right, titles that don't require as much dev attention to keep up with the player base in terms of content I.E. a MMOFPS and Sandbox MMORPG, titles that will like UO, EQ1, etc, be played in 15 years, and let that cash shop money flow.
An "Everquest 3" would suffer the same fate as SWTOR, Rift, TSW, GW2, big budget titles that lose steam, require additional financing to continuiously create new content to try to keep a player base interested enough to buy another "kronos" before jumping ship to the next newest latest and greatest MMO. Chasing that dragon.
But is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't think so.
A sandbox is a toolbox to create my own fun. It's cheaper for them, more enjoyable for me, less for them to fuck up, and if given the chance to invest themselves creates a longer lasting player base.
Originally posted by Lazzaro http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/18/soe-live-2012-keynote-announcements/ Discuss
EVE took that title and still holds it.
Unless SOE come up with a single serverstyle game instead of server shards with 500 players on it....total free gameplay without limitations and player generated gameplay, then again, according to Smedley and his promotion team SWG still holds 300 zillion players online now even when the game is officially dead.
But I doubt SOE can back it up with their history.
I doubt SOE even knows what a sandbox really is, they had one a long time ago with a I WIN button printed on it, they fell flat on their faces. They don't even know how to make a decent themepark mmo.
Can't even think of 1 successful game made by them. All their games are dead or dying,
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by Muke Originally posted by Lazzaro http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/18/soe-live-2012-keynote-announcements/ Discuss
If you check out some interviews with Smed he's all up on EVE's nutsack. You can bet he is going to try to implement many of EVE's mechanics into a fantasy setting.
Originally posted by Hedeon the whole problem with Smed´s hype speech about EQNext is that it leaves everyone to their own imagination about what their end product will be like
We'll all calm down in a couple of days.
The most sandbox-y specific detail in that announcement was "Housing for DCUO!"
Just not much beyond good lip-service it's pretty typical marketing speak.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by ShakyMo I think soe will have a moderate hit with planetside 2, the original was a good concept but ahead of its time (and players internet connections of the time) EQ next I'm not so sure. If its a sandbox I can't see how they can square that with the traditional EQ fan base. Both EQ games are mostly centred on hardcore progression pveers. You can really have progression style pve within a sandbox, it just doesn't work. If course what is probably happening is it will be primarily an open world theme park like eq1, daoc & gw2. Then they will add some sandbox elements like a more sandboxy crafting system, player housing etc.. I really, really cant see them dropping phat lewt and the tiers of pve content you have to gear up for as that is what most EQ fans like. Whereas players that like sandboxes like eve or uo or whatever will probably avoid EQ next thinking its a progression pve game like the first 2. A quality game that plays like eve but in a fantasy world where you control your character directly with wasd movement would rock though.
originally there was this game and it didnt really have raids or tiered gear progression. It had 2 dragons.
It ws called everquest. It wa great, and then someting happend to it that turned it into the most raidcentric game of them all. The original game was devoured by it.
i want them to bring back the spirit of the original before it was corrupted and package it in a world that is technologically possible today.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
Originally posted by rungard well we have the required 350 posts in one day in one thread. Can we get a forum now.
Originally posted by PittyH Whatever EQ2 next is, it's not a sandbox unless 99% of the items in the game can be destroyed and created.
I know, 98% is just not good enough.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
If they truely want to get back to an EverQuest feel, they need to can the themepark hand holding.. NO QUEST HUBS.. NONE, NADA, ZILCH.. ZIPPO.. I think you get the idea.. This is not to say that their can't be repeatable turn in rewards like, "turn in 10 pristine wolf pelts to a trader or craftsman".. I further would like to see a dynamic world similar to what GW2 is doing.. I want a game that if I want to go around and explore, I can.. If I want to go camp the wolf caves to get pristine wolf pelts.. I can.. There has to be more freedom of play, and need to avoid this 1/2 baked bread crumb trail junk we are being fed.. Leave out anything that remotely looks like a storyline.. I don't want to relive what someone predetermined.. I want to create my own history and biography.. TYVM..
And as of late.. Honestly, I don't see anyone, especially SOE bucking the system and move more into a sandbox genre.. But if they can.. Kudo's to them.. I'll wait and see and not hold my breath..
Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim DawnWaiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert
Originally posted by DSWBeefEveryones idea of a sandbox is different. Just like how i think a Sandbox doesnt need full loot pvp. IB4 im called a carebear.
I have been a PK since pre UO (The Realm) and throughout my MMO career. I used to be brutal as fuck, carving a red river through naked miners and roleplayers. Hell, I was suspended from a humanities class in 10th grade for PKing my teacher and looting her tower keys and talking shit to her online after she found out I played UO and invited me to a pixelated tea party....
However, looking at Darkfall or any of the non-production UO shards available today, the wolves that want full loot also want the sheep, those aformentioned miners and roleplayers on which to prey, back in the day they had precious few other games to run to. Nowadays, with all the options we have available, the sheep have a bit more say, so, for a healthy wolf pack and healthy herd, full loot is a no-go. I need something though, like coin, or materials, etc. Maybe 1 item. I'm sure a compromise will be found somewhere, or maybe I'm just getting soft in my 'old age'.
Originally posted by pvpirl Originally posted by DSWBeef Everyones idea of a sandbox is different. Just like how i think a Sandbox doesnt need full loot pvp. IB4 im called a carebear.
I dont mind gold or even EXP taking but any gear is a no no. Unless is under a certain rarity.
If you look to a certain everquest pvp server that is less than offical, you'd see that xp loss is the WRONG answer. I'd say coins, mats, mundane items (arrows, bandages, regs, the like) is ideal.
Originally posted by DSWBeef Originally posted by pvpirl Originally posted by DSWBeef Everyones idea of a sandbox is different. Just like how i think a Sandbox doesnt need full loot pvp. IB4 im called a carebear.
Hopefully SOE will actually introduce true social mechanics. So called hardcore pvprs aways demand entitlements to pvp freely while being dead against entitlements for players wanting protection. Sadly they are either ignorant or so entirely stupid that they do not realize you cannot have rebellion without opposition. A sandbox game allows the choice of anarchy and society. Society cannot exist without protections and institutions yet we rarely see these options put into sandbox games. Typically they only support anarchy so we get pvprs whining for freedom yet socially minded players without any mechanics to support their goals.
What we need is the ability for players to be true anarchists if they want but also the ability to face serious consequenses for their actions if they choose to go against organized and protected institutions. Institutions build up with the blood and sweat of those who with to protect it. This is why so many fear sandbox games ... they do not understand what a themepark game is when they play it. A themepark game is a game where protections are built into the game and artificial. Players have no control over it so freedom is restricted. A sandbox game also MUST support protections but this would be in the hands of the players to build up these institutions and protect them. Most sandbox games do not even offer this yet allow players to gank freely and without penalty (no form of restriction of freedom. IE jail, perma-death, etc).
If a player wants to kill another player and be able to fully loot them then that player should share equal risk. This is how EQNext should answer the question of full open world pvp. The players creating social structure should have the ability to create the safe areas they want by creating extreme risk for those acting against it. They must be able to define someone a criminal for you can only call someone a criminal if you have the ability to enforce your laws. Besides I still think SOE will have defined safe zones and largely opt-in pvp for the most part anyway. Through either freedom to empower themselves through sandbox elements or some programmed cheats like in themepark gakes I imagine SOE will still allow those not wanting full time pvp safe options.
You stay sassy!
Originally posted by pvpirl If you look to a certain everquest pvp server that is less than offical, you'd see that xp loss is the WRONG answer. I'd say coins, mats, mundane items (arrows, bandages, regs, the like) is ideal.
Yea i see what you're saying. The mundane thing while may seem stupid could be a useful loot option for pvp. I know kiloling someone and stealing all their postions would be evil but not game breakingly evil.
Lootable open world pvp? There are many games out there like that now. Go play one of those. To add that to a game called EQ anything would just be wrong. I hope they give us something more along the lines of what EQ was in the beginning and not some gankfest type of garbage you can pick up in the stores right now in the bargain bins. Plz give the other side something to play that's challenging and social w/o the mindless pking rabble.
Originally posted by dustyhayes Originally posted by rungard well we have the required 350 posts in one day in one thread. Can we get a forum now.
Originally posted by pvpirl Originally posted by dustyhayes Originally posted by rungard well we have the required 350 posts in one day in one thread. Can we get a forum now.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.Watch your words; they become actions.Watch your actions; they become habits.Watch your habits; they become character.Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.Lao-Tze
Originally posted by sfarque318Lootable open world pvp? There are many games out there like that now. Go play one of those. To add that to a game called EQ anything would just be wrong. I hope they give us something more along the lines of what EQ was in the beginning and not some gankfest type of garbage you can pick up in the stores right now in the bargain bins. Plz give the other side something to play that's challenging and social w/o the mindless pking rabble.
Originally posted by DSWBeef Originally posted by pvpirl Originally posted by dustyhayes Originally posted by rungard well we have the required 350 posts in one day in one thread. Can we get a forum now.
PVPIRL, may I recommend a simple ear as a trophy for PKing? That was always enough for me back in D2. Well, hardcore D2 so nevermind But still it isn't a bad trophy. I think 1 item off peoples body would be OK as well but that just depends how easy it is to spawn camp... Or maybe the item would only drop once every 30 minutes or so.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
After all the SOE has ever done...
Still, the myraid of failure they have engaged in might very well be the thing that drives true inspiration. Of the many companies out there that have tried to become major players in this field, SOE actually WAS one and a giant one at that. When doing EQ they saw a powerful trend and monetized it. With such games as Minecraft and Terraria dominating sales over their AAA opposites, it at least stands to reason that they recogize the opening finally coming for true sandbox gameplay. Unlike SWG, which had far too many hands in the pot controlling it, this attempt will be under their full control. Nevermind the fact that they still have a ton of money to throw around on a risk.
If anyone has got something to prove, it certainly IS SOE. I can hate what they've done, so much so that I've extended that blame deep into aspects and facets of Sony that had nothing to do with it by refusing to even buy a playstation or Sony TV since then. But if they're actually going to make a serious go at creating something new, something I like, and something great...I can find it in my heart to offer them a final chance. Not because they deserve it. But because WE do. We deserve a game like that, and they are probably the only company desparate enough to accept the challenge of creating it. They literally have nothing to lose, they've already lost everything they ever had really. They've floated on novelty for years now, having nothing to take true pride in. I'm sure there are talented people working there, new men and women trying to break into the gaming industry and make a name for themselves. Its entirely possible that a great shift could have happened in that way, allowing them to really go for it.
I can also see how Smedly, after going from a name respected in the industry to one people utter under their breath in shame, would finally be in the mental state he would need to be to finally say, "I was wrong about the direction of MMO gaming, lets let these guys make a go at this and try to regain some measure of respect before the sun finally sets".
Something tells me that this is going to happen, and going to be great. If for no other reason than to spite me. But also because it seems that the best of things always manage to come from where it is least expected. No one could have seen Mojang becoming what it is. No one could have seen Ultima Online becoming what it was. No one could have seen Counter Strike, DOTA, or Day Z. All things which were birthed from the last place you'd look for it. But mostly, I think its going to happen to spite me. That and SOE also happened to have the only other sandbox MMO I ever enjoyed. Once upon a time, at least.
If it happens, I'll try it. I'll hope for it. And if it works, I'll even give Smed a free pass on all the things he's done wrong. Which is actually another way of saying I'll consider a Sony product AT all again.