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The number 1 rule of sandboxes..(lookin' at you Smed)

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by defector1968
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    I would love to see a 'master list' of Sandbox rules.  I'm curious as to what they actually are.

    yes and will be the joke of the year

    The whole point of sandboxes is rather the opposite, what rules?

    At this point I pretty much reflexively disagree with anybody who proposes a rule about what a "true" gamer or a "true" sandbox needs to be.  The op avoided that "true" word, but he gave us the same thread.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    alternatively...1 char/acc reduces a very fun part of meta-gaming : SPYING.

     

    A recent thread I created polled players about whether they owned multiple accounts in a game and SWG was the hands down winner with several folks claiming to have 12, 16 and even 20 something accounts to get around this limitation of 1 character per account.

    So sort of a win win for the Devs and don't worry, people who want to spy will buy more than one account.

    Back to the OP.  The OP is on the right track, but developing a proper MMO economy with sufficient money drains is a bit more complicated than having your gear wear out or break if controlling inflation is your goal.

    Look at the real world, hordes of economists try to figure out ways to control inflation and at the of the day, you actually want some level of it, just at a controlled, predictable rate.

    I believe at the end of the day, the agreement is having a slow, steadygrowth of the money supply is the way to go (vs Keynesian policies) and that's where it becomes challenging in MMORPG's.

    Since resources in MMO's tend to spring from no where, even if items degrade, it won't do much to control inflation so you have to put in other sinks.

    EVE does this by having a strong PVP model at its core to drive the economy, and they make sure that in most fights besides a ship being destroyed some portion of its modules and cargo burn with it. 

    This permits them to fine tune it some, increase or decrease the destruction rate if you will.

    There are other ways EVE tries control the economy, (CCP has a full time staff economist to assist them) and even they can't totally kill inflation, but have done one of the best jobs I've seen in a MMORPG to do so over the long haul

     

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • goblagobla somewherePosts: 1,411Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by defector1968
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    I would love to see a 'master list' of Sandbox rules.  I'm curious as to what they actually are.

    yes and will be the joke of the year

    The whole point of sandboxes is rather the opposite, what rules?

    At this point I pretty much reflexively disagree with anybody who proposes a rule about what a "true" gamer or a "true" sandbox needs to be.  The op avoided that "true" word, but he gave us the same thread.

    So... the #1 rule of sandboxes is that it has no rules?

    Which is one heck of a contradiction if I ever saw one.

    Not to mention that any game is, in essence, nothing more than a set of rules. From chess, as defined by the unique properties of the board and each piece, to any MMO, as defined by it's programming.

    Games are, by very definition, rules. A game without rules isn't a game at all, let alone a sandbox game.

    We are the bunny.
    Resistance is futile.
    ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
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  • GadarethGadareth Westcliff-on-SeaPosts: 313Member
    Originally posted by PittyH

     

     

    The number 1 rule of sandboxes is... "Items must be able to be destroyed".

    Every single item must either degrade on use, or be completely destroyed from either A NPC or a Player / Environment.

    This in turn creates an ecconomy, and prevents market inflation.

    It creates player jobs/crafting/trading etc etc.

     

     

    I think the number 2 rule should be "Every item in the game can also be crafted"

     

    Just like eve online

    I disagree. The number one factor of a sandbox is freedom. Thats it, everything else is flavor text. Everyone has a idea of what to THEM  makes a sandbox ideal but they are not rules for a sandbox.

    For example die hard PvPers would reckon that free for all PvP with full loot option is the key to a sandbox. A crafter would believe what you requested was key.

    A PvEer would expect greedom to go anywhere from the deepest depths of the ocean to the highest mountain peaks as essential.

    For me a Sandbox means freedom to play my way.

     

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member
    just copy swg but with less bugs.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by gobla

    So... the #1 rule of sandboxes is that it has no rules?

    Nope. The #1 rule is: YOU don't get to tell ME how to play.

    More of an ideal, a goal really. Maybe the whole thread's blame is at the op's feet, for choosing hyperbole for a title...

    I suspect Smed's going to lean more towards SWG than towards EVE, given his 'druthers.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by gobla
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Hardly.

    Simply make every item require a large variety of materials.

    If iron items also require a measure of bronze to craft then this will insure there's still a demand for bronze, which in turn stimulates a healthy supply as well as competition which will cause the market for bronze items themselves to remain alive as well.

    EvE is a wonderfull example of this. There are many rare materials from moons and wormholes that are required to create advanced T2 and T3 items. Yet in order to construct any of these materials you still require all the base materials in EvE.

    Around 99% of all modules in EvE require the most common material, tritanium, to be constructed.

    Yet there's still materials which are worth fighting for and materials which are not worth fighting for. For example technetium is a "bottleneck" material which is crucial for T2 industry. Also, the profit to effort ratio varies greatly between materials. Mining trit is easy whereas other materials require more effort; however, often the effort does not reflect the profit you get.
     
    It is also worth to note that a significant portion of the ships and modules in the game are very unpopular or practically unused. This in turn affects demand and which materials are useful or not.
     
    "Lets make everything require everything" is not really a solution either, wouldn't you say?

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • goblagobla somewherePosts: 1,411Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by gobla

    So... the #1 rule of sandboxes is that it has no rules?

    Nope. The #1 rule is: YOU don't get to tell ME how to play.

    You as in the developers? In which case no game is a sandbox. In every single game the creators impose limits and restrictions in the confines of which gameplay exists.

    Or you as in other players? In which case every game fulfills that rule, as long as the player has even half a spine. In every single game you're free to do whatever the hell you want in the confines of gameplay, regardless of what other players feel.

    What you're saying is completely meaningless in regards to games.

    A sandbox is defined by it's box. The confines and restrictions in which the game takes place. That's what makes them interesting. All sand and no box and the entire game loses all it's meaning, not that you can even call it a game in that case.

    Meaningful choices require restrictions. Choosing between A and B only has meaning if the restriction that you can't have both exists. And if there's one thing that's at the core of a sandbox it's the choices of it's players and those choices only have meaning if there are rules telling them how to play, telling them what the consequences of their choices are.

    We are the bunny.
    Resistance is futile.
    ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
    ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
    (")("),,(")("),(")(")

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member
    Originally posted by PittyH

     

     

    The number 1 rule of sandboxes is... "Items must be able to be destroyed".

    Every single item must either degrade on use, or be completely destroyed from either A NPC or a Player / Environment.

    This in turn creates an ecconomy, and prevents market inflation.

    It creates player jobs/crafting/trading etc etc.

     

     

    I think the number 2 rule should be "Every item in the game can also be crafted"

     

    Just like eve online

    I wouldn't call them No. 1 and No. 2 - but overall they're pretty good design rules. In my book your No. 2 is even more important than your No. 1.

    As to the posts about 1 character/server. I would really, really like to agree - sadly it doesn't work anymore. Especially the more competitive players will use any means to gain a competitive advantage, i.e. multiple accounts, dual-boxing, armies of alts, botting, etc.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by gobla
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by gobla

    So... the #1 rule of sandboxes is that it has no rules?

    Nope. The #1 rule is: YOU don't get to tell ME how to play.

    You as in the developers? In which case no game is a sandbox. In every single game the creators impose limits and restrictions in the confines of which gameplay exists.

    Or you as in other players? In which case every game fulfills that rule, as long as the player has even half a spine. In every single game you're free to do whatever the hell you want in the confines of gameplay, regardless of what other players feel.

    What you're saying is completely meaningless in regards to games.

    A sandbox is defined by it's box. The confines and restrictions in which the game takes place. That's what makes them interesting. All sand and no box and the entire game loses all it's meaning, not that you can even call it a game in that case.

    Meaningful choices require restrictions. Choosing between A and B only has meaning if the restriction that you can't have both exists. And if there's one thing that's at the core of a sandbox it's the choices of it's players and those choices only have meaning if there are rules telling them how to play, telling them what the consequences of their choices are.

    Dude.  Just stop, I don't want to play with you.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • goblagobla somewherePosts: 1,411Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by gobla
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Hardly.

    Simply make every item require a large variety of materials.

    If iron items also require a measure of bronze to craft then this will insure there's still a demand for bronze, which in turn stimulates a healthy supply as well as competition which will cause the market for bronze items themselves to remain alive as well.

    EvE is a wonderfull example of this. There are many rare materials from moons and wormholes that are required to create advanced T2 and T3 items. Yet in order to construct any of these materials you still require all the base materials in EvE.

    Around 99% of all modules in EvE require the most common material, tritanium, to be constructed.

    Yet there's still materials which are worth fighting for and materials which are not worth fighting for. For example technetium is a "bottleneck" material which is crucial for T2 industry. Also, the profit to effort ratio varies greatly between materials. Mining trit is easy whereas other materials require more effort; however, often the effort does not reflect the profit you get.
     
    It is also worth to note that a significant portion of the ships and modules in the game are very unpopular or practically unused. This in turn affects demand and which materials are useful or not.
     
    "Lets make everything require everything" is not really a solution either, wouldn't you say?

    I'm not claiming all materials need to be equal. Just that they need to be usefull in some form.

    To a manufacturer in EvE a piece of tritanium always helps, it's not nearly as good as a piece of technetium, but he can definitely use it regardless of how basic or advanced the things he's creating. Same goes for every single other material used in manufacturing, there will always be a use for it now or in the future.

    To a crafter in your average MMO however low-grade crafting materials soon come to be utterly useless. There'll be literally nothing remotely usefull they can craft with it. Crafting with it won't raise any skills. There is no demand for the created items as they are outleveled in minutes. They're a stepping stone that loses all it's value once passed.

    We are the bunny.
    Resistance is futile.
    ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
    ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
    (")("),,(")("),(")(")

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    (1) rule is no roadblocks in terrain.  You should be able to investigate every single inch of the map without being forced down fake corridors like many games do.  There are so many games that look huge but they put roadblocks in that keep you from accessing 80% of the terrain because all it is is pixels and not really part of the world.

    (2) Crafting.  We need crafting like it was in swg before they screwed crafting up.  Dedicated crafters need to be able to make things that are unique.  Not like games are now where you hit the button and everybody makes the same thing.  Item decay will help.

    (3) There should be real death penalties now days you res up go on your marry way, fix your gear.  We need something in place to where you die you take a hit to your items durability that cant be fixed. This would teach you to be careful. I seen post in a lot of games that are hey if you die you can res at the next spot on the map and be where you need to be. Make dying not fun and not exploitable like that.

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by gobla
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    I'm not claiming all materials need to be equal. Just that they need to be usefull in some form.

    To a manufacturer in EvE a piece of tritanium always helps, it's not nearly as good as a piece of technetium, but he can definitely use it regardless of how basic or advanced the things he's creating. Same goes for every single other material used in manufacturing, there will always be a use for it now or in the future.

    To a crafter in your average MMO however low-grade crafting materials soon come to be utterly useless. There'll be literally nothing remotely usefull they can craft with it. Crafting with it won't raise any skills. There is no demand for the created items as they are outleveled in minutes. They're a stepping stone that loses all it's value once passed.

    And I'm merely saying that the claim "every material must be useful" is idealistic and unreasonable.

    EDIT: With the variety you'd want that is.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • goblagobla somewherePosts: 1,411Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by gobla
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    I'm not claiming all materials need to be equal. Just that they need to be usefull in some form.

    To a manufacturer in EvE a piece of tritanium always helps, it's not nearly as good as a piece of technetium, but he can definitely use it regardless of how basic or advanced the things he's creating. Same goes for every single other material used in manufacturing, there will always be a use for it now or in the future.

    To a crafter in your average MMO however low-grade crafting materials soon come to be utterly useless. There'll be literally nothing remotely usefull they can craft with it. Crafting with it won't raise any skills. There is no demand for the created items as they are outleveled in minutes. They're a stepping stone that loses all it's value once passed.

    And I'm merely saying that the claim "every material must be useful" is idealistic and unreasonable.

    EDIT: With the variety you'd want that is.

    I'd agree that it's unlikely we'll ever see such a system perfectly balanced in a game. Perfect balance doesn't exist.

    I would still say that we should strive for it though, to make every material useful.

    There's, imho, a big difference between designing a material as useless, as your average themepark does, and designing them all to be useful imperfectly, as for example EvE does.

    You're very right that some modules and ships aren't actually all that useful due to game imbalances, in turn making some materials less useful. But behind this is still the intent for them to be useful, meaning that with patches the balance can shift making previously useless modules useful and the other way around, in turn doing the same for the required materials.

    To me that makes a difference.

    We are the bunny.
    Resistance is futile.
    ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
    ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
    (")("),,(")("),(")(")

  • PittyHPittyH MelbournePosts: 116Member
    Originally posted by gobla

    Crafting is definitely a cornerstone of a traditional sandbox, along with PvP.

    Crafters supply equipment and items of all kinds, from weapons and armor to constructions, to the PvPers to fight with. These can be destroyed to create a constant demand for crafting.

    PvPers fight over territory containing valuable resources for the crafters to make things with. These are used up in crafting to create a constant demand for the territories containing the materials.

    Those two demands interacting with each other is generally what creates the dynamic player-driven world of a sandbox.

    That being said, I'm sure it's not the only way to create a dynamic player-driven world. But it's one way that's been proven to work.

     

    Youv'e just described my exact definition of a sandbox, and basically the same as EVE, which is what any new sanbox game should have at the core level. 

    my web design: www.advancedws.com.au

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    Will you let designers do what they want please. The game isn't out yet and you're already complaining, the designers will do whatever they think is good for the game. You'll end up like those people during beta who ragequit because something gets changed.

    Let's get this over with too, you pure sandbox fans with preconceived notions of what a sandbox is are going to be disappointed, you're already projecting what the game will be like and you're already making up rules for the game as if you're the designer. Some are already thinking it will be a full out PVP free-for-all, because that's what they believe sandbox is, ignoring that the EQ franchise has been overwhelmingly PVE, maybe there will be PVP maybe there won't be, maybe you can destroy items maybe you can't. All items being crafable is something you should stop hoping for too, EQ and EQ2 didn't have this, maybe EQNext will but I really doubt it.

    They can do whatever they want at this point, and what you're doing now is setting yourself up for disappointment.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Will you let designers do what they want please.

    I dunno, people on a message board about MMOs sometimes discussing mmo design?  What were they thinking?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Will you let designers do what they want please. The game isn't out yet and you're already complaining, the designers will do whatever they think is good for the game. You'll end up like those people during beta who ragequit because something gets changed.

    Let's get this over with too, you pure sandbox fans with preconceived notions of what a sandbox is are going to be disappointed, you're already projecting what the game will be like and you're already making up rules for the game as if you're the designer. Some are already thinking it will be a full out PVP free-for-all, because that's what they believe sandbox is, ignoring that the EQ franchise has been overwhelmingly PVE, maybe there will be PVP maybe there won't be, maybe you can destroy items maybe you can't. All items being crafable is something you should stop hoping for too, EQ and EQ2 didn't have this, maybe EQNext will but I really doubt it.

    They can do whatever they want at this point, and what you're doing now is setting yourself up for disappointment.

    And yet your assumptions about it being just like EQ are somehow acceptable, double standards?

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Will you let designers do what they want please.

    I dunno, people on a message board about MMOs sometimes discussing mmo design?  What were they thinking?

    You can discuss anything you like, but there is a difference between "I hope EQNext has this and that" and "Designers, this is rule number 1, rule number 2"

    Are you the designer for EQNext? Didn't think so, let them design the game how they like.

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by gobla
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by gobla
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    I'm not claiming all materials need to be equal. Just that they need to be usefull in some form.

    To a manufacturer in EvE a piece of tritanium always helps, it's not nearly as good as a piece of technetium, but he can definitely use it regardless of how basic or advanced the things he's creating. Same goes for every single other material used in manufacturing, there will always be a use for it now or in the future.

    To a crafter in your average MMO however low-grade crafting materials soon come to be utterly useless. There'll be literally nothing remotely usefull they can craft with it. Crafting with it won't raise any skills. There is no demand for the created items as they are outleveled in minutes. They're a stepping stone that loses all it's value once passed.

    And I'm merely saying that the claim "every material must be useful" is idealistic and unreasonable.

    EDIT: With the variety you'd want that is.

    I'd agree that it's unlikely we'll ever see such a system perfectly balanced in a game. Perfect balance doesn't exist.

    I would still say that we should strive for it though, to make every material useful.

    There's, imho, a big difference between designing a material as useless, as your average themepark does, and designing them all to be useful imperfectly, as for example EvE does.

    You're very right that some modules and ships aren't actually all that useful due to game imbalances, in turn making some materials less useful. But behind this is still the intent for them to be useful, meaning that with patches the balance can shift making previously useless modules useful and the other way around, in turn doing the same for the required materials.

    To me that makes a difference.

    In the game I am playing, researching a blueprint can change the required materials needed to manufacture which makes every resource potentially useful.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Will you let designers do what they want please. The game isn't out yet and you're already complaining, the designers will do whatever they think is good for the game. You'll end up like those people during beta who ragequit because something gets changed.

    Let's get this over with too, you pure sandbox fans with preconceived notions of what a sandbox is are going to be disappointed, you're already projecting what the game will be like and you're already making up rules for the game as if you're the designer. Some are already thinking it will be a full out PVP free-for-all, because that's what they believe sandbox is, ignoring that the EQ franchise has been overwhelmingly PVE, maybe there will be PVP maybe there won't be, maybe you can destroy items maybe you can't. All items being crafable is something you should stop hoping for too, EQ and EQ2 didn't have this, maybe EQNext will but I really doubt it.

    They can do whatever they want at this point, and what you're doing now is setting yourself up for disappointment.

    And yet your assumptions about it being just like EQ are somehow acceptable, double standards?

    I have made 0 rules about EQ or sandboxes, I do have some thought of what EQNext might be like, but I don't go and enforce them and I don't think sandboxes have rules that should be adhered to.

    People always say they want something new to play and refreshing and the first thing you people are doing is coming up with old rules of what a sandbox is and isn't. Let them do their job, we know nothing about this game, SoE mentions one single word and you have all made up your mind already, ready to be disappointed.

     

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Will you let designers do what they want please. The game isn't out yet and you're already complaining, the designers will do whatever they think is good for the game. You'll end up like those people during beta who ragequit because something gets changed.

    Let's get this over with too, you pure sandbox fans with preconceived notions of what a sandbox is are going to be disappointed, you're already projecting what the game will be like and you're already making up rules for the game as if you're the designer. Some are already thinking it will be a full out PVP free-for-all, because that's what they believe sandbox is, ignoring that the EQ franchise has been overwhelmingly PVE, maybe there will be PVP maybe there won't be, maybe you can destroy items maybe you can't. All items being crafable is something you should stop hoping for too, EQ and EQ2 didn't have this, maybe EQNext will but I really doubt it.

    They can do whatever they want at this point, and what you're doing now is setting yourself up for disappointment.

    And yet your assumptions about it being just like EQ are somehow acceptable, double standards?

    I have made 0 rules about EQ or sandboxes, I do have some thought of what EQNext might be like, but I don't go and enforce them and I don't think sandboxes have rules that should be adhered to.

    People always say they want something new to play and refreshing and the first thing you people are doing is coming up with old rules of what a sandbox is and isn't. Let them do their job, we know nothing about this game, SoE mentions one single word and you have all made up your mind already, ready to be disappointed.

     

    So, yes.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon

    so, people are supposed to farm materials for a high end weapon, just to have it break again?

     

    imo number one rule should be an open world, without the constant need to quest through premade questlines and a predefined end.

     

     

    but heeeeeey. i know you guys have weird definitions of a sandbox :P nothing shocking

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Will you let designers do what they want please.

    I dunno, people on a message board about MMOs sometimes discussing mmo design?  What were they thinking?

    You can discuss anything you like, but there is a difference between "I hope EQNext has this and that" and "Designers, this is rule number 1, rule number 2"

    Are you the designer for EQNext? Didn't think so, let them design the game how they like.

    That's the problem today Calm, to many armchair devs.

    image
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor

    So, yes.

    No, I don't think a game should adhere to rules to be a sandbox, everyone has a different notion of what a sandbox is, and I don't think that SoE's notion of what a sandbox is is going to be the same as yours or the OP's or anyone elses. If you believe SoE will make a game that fulfills everyone's needs you will be disappointed because it's impossible.

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