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Easy has to go...who asked for easy ? ( Poll )

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  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by aphydork

    I didn't think I needed to respond to it. My post that you were responding to answered it already. Monsters in GW2 were harder. They changed it. Due to feedback. Negative feedback. Keep up.

    As for game design, I am assuming you are talking about the markers, indicating where you need to go. FFXI did not have things like that. Quests and their supporting NPC text were also very cryptic. Players basically had to look up all the quests, missions, and, actually, everything on fansites to find out where to go and what to do. 

    It was stupid. I mean... I liked FFXI, but that was stupid. If you enjoy playing with less information and fleshing out the world through having to dig, there are games that give you less information to go on. To me, they're unintuitive.

    It sounds like your type of game is a sandbox that gives you little information and throws you in the thick of things to level. I might be off in that assumption, but I don't particularly find those enjoyable. Those eventually boil down to everyone doing everything ineffectively for a while until a few guides pop up and then the majority abuse the guides to create a huge gap that never really closes. But I digress.

    I know that they changed it - I played it. I know that there are more players that want easier that those that want harder.  I was assuming that is something that does not need to be debated.   If you think I advocated change of all or even most mmoprg's to my liking then you had wrong impression.  

    Whole problem is all non-indie mmorpg's follow one design in terms of challange and other things we talk about in this topic. Think I would bitch about some mmoprpgs on forums If I would have one mmorpg with design more suited for my taste (more not ideally suited) ?    

    Nah I would play it and I don't even want to play more than one mmorpg anyway so It is not my wish to change most mmoppg's.

    As for FF XI - no idea have not played it. 

    Yes I am talking about markers that show player where to go (and all changes to gameplay and design that come with it).

    I will use your own words. For me having those is stupid.   What it does it change game into something that is not a game anymore.   You don't need to figure things out, just follow an arrow / marker.  Just following an marker is not playing game for me cause I don't need to think and don't need to make decisions. 

    Coupling that with easiness of content it mean that I am almost certain that I will complete whatever it is at place that marker show me. 

    So there is no game.  I don't even see what is 'game' part in doing that kind of quest.  Finding things? No. Since I don't find anything.   Figuring things out? No. I have everything presented on a silver platter.   Preparing myself? No. There are no mechanics that require any preparetion.  Combat? No.  95%-99% are solo quest made for low geared most squischy class with goal that most players should complete quest of first try.

     

    So with current design there is no single element that require any effort, any decision, thinking or that bring any consequence.

     

    Regarding guides - solution lies with more randomization of quest placement of quest objevtives. Now monster that is quest objective always spawn in one place (or sometimes in one of two-three pre-definated places). 

    Solo quest allow for bigger personalization and randomization of those.  Also designing quests with option of failue.

    Basically LESS number of quests, but more complex ones, option to fail and not complete them, more randomization, etc  That is discussion for whole other thread though.

    Sandbox? Yes I like sandbox.   Just have to be well made.  Low-budget indie unfinished ones - I tried I really did try and support them, but even though I don't expect level of polishing I've been reading in topics of Swtor or Gw2 after relase and I can accept bugs as long as they are fixed - I can't stand such low quality product like Mortal Online.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Industry have to start difftent games for difftent player subsets.  Following one trend for all mainstream mmorpg's won't work that well anymore.

    I'd speculate that one of the subsets  is "first-gen players retiring".

    How many of our "vets" claim post-40 ages?  Any reason to not believe them?  I got to be 50 this year :/

    It's an inevitability of the industry aging; the front end of the bell curve drops off, at approximately the same rate as the incoming trickle of new players.  That's how population bell curves work.  :shrug:

    Well I am 'first-gen player' that remember UO times before EQ release and I am still under 30.  Besides - actually 'vets' aging will mean that they will start to enter reirement peroid or at least their kids will be adults soon - so some of those oldest players will start to have more free time on their hands in coming years.   Currently many vet players are between 35-55 and are very busy working, raising kids, doing business, making their life with their partner.  It will look quite diffrent in some years.

  • robhyp10robhyp10 Plainview, TXPosts: 13Member
    I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.
  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by robhyp10
    I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

    Markers, highlights, zoned not seamless game and cash shop in a subscription game.  Fast levelling, focus on end-game instances.     Combat is classical which is fine but coupled with only 7 actives skills is really not working for me(yes I know about decks and skill wheel system - I played beta).

    Investigation missions are miniority, which is to be expected and I am not complain about it., thing is other quest have quest gps, highlights and are just like in all other current mmorpg's.   

     

    Funcom's enthiustatic embrace of freemium model and selling of lifetime subs seemed like TSW was going to be converted fast.  Funcom's handling of AoC with billing and with patches that even today break game horribly with almost each one, etc

    Really alot of things spoken against long-term investment in this title and I am not looking mmoprg for few weeks.  Don't like to even start playing and investing time in mmoprg if I will be forced out of it fast (in example because of freemium conversion).

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by robhyp10
    I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

    Funcom.

    Next question?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by robhyp10
    I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

    Funcom.

    Next question?

    Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by halflife25
    Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

    If you had experienced the Billing Debacle of 2008 that I experienced, you would never again trust them with your credit card either.

    Feel free to defend them.  I do not care.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by halflife25
    Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

    If you had experienced the Billing Debacle of 2008 that I experienced, you would never again trust them with your credit card either.

    Feel free to defend them.  I do not care.

    I didn't. It was a question.

    I use entropay because i don't trust any company when it comes to my CC.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,495Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by halflife25
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by robhyp10
    I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

    Funcom.

    Next question?

    Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

    Life is better when you learn from your mistakes and stop buying from companies that you deem poor.

     

    Have you not learned this lesson yet? When you order a pizza and it tastes horrible, do not order pizza from the same place.

     

    Not that I have anything agaisnt Funcom, but a hell of a lot of people do based on their experiences with both Anarchy Online and Age of Conan.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,966Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by robhyp10
    I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

    Markers, highlights, zoned not seamless game and cash shop in a subscription game.  Fast levelling, focus on end-game instances.     Combat is classical which is fine but coupled with only 7 actives skills is really not working for me(yes I know about decks and skill wheel system - I played beta).

    Investigation missions are miniority, which is to be expected and I am not complain about it., thing is other quest have quest gps, highlights and are just like in all other current mmorpg's.   

    I have to agree, I died more in TSW than I had in any recent MMORPG and it was a bit refreshing, but at the end of the day you quickly find your self running out of any real progression outside of gear and heading to a gear grinding end game.

    I did enjoy the amped up difficulty though, they were on the right track, shame they lost their creativity when trying to figure out what the end game should be and followed the SOP.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by halflife25
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by robhyp10
    I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

    Funcom.

    Next question?

    Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

    Life is better when you learn from your mistakes and stop buying from companies that you deem poor.

     

    Have you not learned this lesson yet? When you order a pizza and it tastes horrible, do not order pizza from the same place.

     

    Not that I have anything agaisnt Funcom, but a hell of a lot of people do based on their experiences with both Anarchy Online and Age of Conan.

    I don't deal in absolutes though. And i played AO for many many years and now waiting for the new engine upgrade to dive back in. Sadly pizza shops don't offer free samples but when it comes to games one can try before buy.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by halflife25

     Sadly pizza shops don't offer free samples but when it comes to games one can try before buy.

    You could, once.

    Then people were forced to start using the Store-Refund Trial System, instead... 

    So then beta pre-sales showed up...

    We'll see what the next iteration of the consumers vs corporations retail future holds.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • moguy2moguy2 Saint Peters, MOPosts: 337Member
    Originally posted by aphydork

    You have to take into account that there's a huge discrepancy between the gamers that have been playing video games all their lives--before it was cool--and have played most every MMO and major game to date and MMO players that started playing games when WoW became mainstream.

    The difference between the two can be as significant as the difference between a progamer and yourself. So when developers balance, they need to take into account a large range of skill levels.

    You might argue that the new gamers just need to get as good as you, but... really, it's almost like asking a beginner to tennis to just get as good as a player who started playing at the age of 4. I mean, you could, but what you're really saying is, "Deal with it," which will more likely than not just make the less involved players quit.

    WoW seems to have a decent system going in that there are multiple difficulty levels, and unless you have already beaten the latest heroic 25-man raid, you can't say WoW is easymode. You're just jumping on the "WoW is EZ" bandwagon. Though, it might be. I can't say for certain. I've never experienced it.

    You are focusing on 25 man heroic as the basis to call WOW hard? Before you get to 25 man anything, what do you do? How do you get there? How long does it take to get there? What challenges are there before grinding gear?

    As an old school gamer its about ALL the paths that lead to the end. Not what is at the end. EQ and couple other games put the fear of dying into you. Corpse runs could be a nightmare. You actually had to think about pathing mobs, where you were pulling to, and if you had enough dps to kill this thing out right or if you needed to kite it. 

    Traveling from one zone to another could be deadly. If you got adds on you the only thing you could do is run for the zone and hope to god you made it.

    Then when you made it to max level you banded up with folks, ran your ass to a zone and hoped and prayed to god you could kill boss X without wiping.  Wipes were brutal , to say the least.

    So 25 man heroic is just 25 people , who are geared, who are OK with dying if it doesnt work. But honestly, what happens if you die? You just float back to the zone in with ease, zone in, buff up and go do it again. OR you have a shaman or a soulstoned person just pop back up and mass rez everyone ( Effortlessly ).

    Thats what people are getting at. And yes it IS an easy game. There is litteraly NO challenge to it from start to finish. 25 man heroic is a challenge to beat because the boss has more hps and different moves but beyond that......No

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by robhyp10
    I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

    Because I think it is a bad game. Been there done that and its badly made.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,966Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by moguy2
    Originally posted by aphydork

    You have to take into account that there's a huge discrepancy between the gamers that have been playing video games all their lives--before it was cool--and have played most every MMO and major game to date and MMO players that started playing games when WoW became mainstream.

    The difference between the two can be as significant as the difference between a progamer and yourself. So when developers balance, they need to take into account a large range of skill levels.

    You might argue that the new gamers just need to get as good as you, but... really, it's almost like asking a beginner to tennis to just get as good as a player who started playing at the age of 4. I mean, you could, but what you're really saying is, "Deal with it," which will more likely than not just make the less involved players quit.

    WoW seems to have a decent system going in that there are multiple difficulty levels, and unless you have already beaten the latest heroic 25-man raid, you can't say WoW is easymode. You're just jumping on the "WoW is EZ" bandwagon. Though, it might be. I can't say for certain. I've never experienced it.

    You are focusing on 25 man heroic as the basis to call WOW hard? Before you get to 25 man anything, what do you do? How do you get there? How long does it take to get there? What challenges are there before grinding gear?

    As an old school gamer its about ALL the paths that lead to the end. Not what is at the end. EQ and couple other games put the fear of dying into you. Corpse runs could be a nightmare. You actually had to think about pathing mobs, where you were pulling to, and if you had enough dps to kill this thing out right or if you needed to kite it. 

    Traveling from one zone to another could be deadly. If you got adds on you the only thing you could do is run for the zone and hope to god you made it.

    Then when you made it to max level you banded up with folks, ran your ass to a zone and hoped and prayed to god you could kill boss X without wiping.  Wipes were brutal , to say the least.

    So 25 man heroic is just 25 people , who are geared, who are OK with dying if it doesnt work. But honestly, what happens if you die? You just float back to the zone in with ease, zone in, buff up and go do it again. OR you have a shaman or a soulstoned person just pop back up and mass rez everyone ( Effortlessly ).

    Thats what people are getting at. And yes it IS an easy game. There is litteraly NO challenge to it from start to finish. 25 man heroic is a challenge to beat because the boss has more hps and different moves but beyond that......No

    WOW, (no pun intended) very nice job explaining the difference in play styles between what made EQ challenging and why WOW really isn't, no in the same vein at least.  And let's not forget the challenge of coordinating raids of larger sizes than 25.

     

    image

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon

    You mean more than 25 players! Being told to do one thing! Herding cats anyone?

    I remember being in cross guild faction combat in DAOC. Guild leaders trying to cordinate what was happening and trying to get their guild to do it right. A few hundred were involved. These days the group size is what 4 and a 16 man raid is biggest I saw in SWTOR. But like all the other new MMOs it was easy to get into and everthing must be sacrificed for that, grouping, crafting, raids, faction combat, roleplaying, throw them all on the bonfire and bask in the easymode.

  • gordiflugordiflu BarcelonaPosts: 757Member

    Well, after having been following this thread for a while, looks like everybody who has participated so far would prefer more challenging games. So, while we may not be a majority, we do exist, and we may not be a minority as small as some think.

    So, why the hell are we not getting any option when it comes to MMOs? Niches can mean business too. Look at EVE. Look at Minecraft.

  • aphydorkaphydork Boring, ORPosts: 133Member

    I'm sure developers don't mind making games to target niche demographics. The problem is with funding. Everyone here says they want challenging AND a AAA MMO. Therein lies the problem.

    You'll need to find a publisher who does not mind taking a hit in revenue to cater to a smaller number of gamers, when they could just as easily inflict influence on the developers to change some numbers around--see LOWER--and now have their product be accessible to a much larger number of players, and their wallets.

    You can't really blame publishers either. They're in the business of making money. The large publishers always have and always will be. There is a reason why they are willing to throw hundreds of millions of dollars at a developing company to produce AAA MMOs. There is a reason why they can throw even more money at their less successful products, like FFXIV, to get them up to par, despite having failed launches.

    The silver lining, though, is that for every major AAA MMO that sells well--note that I said sell--they can fund smaller projects targeted towards niche gamers.

    FFXI was a difficult but fairly successful game. Over the course of the years, they made it a lot easier as well, and Square Enix might have gotten a taste of how that affects sales. It might not be possible anymore.

  • sekuharadaioosekuharadaioo OsakaPosts: 22Member

    the good part is in world of warcraft you can choose the difficulty you want to play in.

     

    at least PVP is not easy.

    Games currently playing:
    ------------------------
    Pro Evolution Soccer
    World of Warcraft
    Light of Nova
    League of Legends

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by delete5230

    Blizzard made WoW easy.  Let me ask you. Do you think mmo players really asked for it ?

    Achiever personalities vs others thread again, so soon?  Is it that time of weekend already?

    To answer the question .. YES.

    Just look at the WOW forums when CATA was released. There were a lot of complaint of heroic dungeons (NOT raids) being difficult.

    They nerfed them, and all teh subsequent dungeons (in patches) were easier.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    To answer the question .. YES.

    Just look at the WOW forums when CATA was released. There were a lot of complaint of heroic dungeons (NOT raids) being difficult.

    They nerfed them, and all teh subsequent dungeons (in patches) were easier.

    And the had the same discussions for every other expansion thus far, too.

    Blizzard bounces around like a ping pong ball.  BC--"oops, too much rep grind and atunement mazes, sorry guys".  WoTLK--"oops, we maybe went a tad overboard with the ezmode, sorry guys"  CAT--"oops, we did promise things would be a little rougher, didn't we? sorry guys" MOP=="we'll let you know in a couple of months what folks gripe about this time, kay?"

    Discussion of Blizzard's caving to the masses belongs over on Blizzard's bltchf...er, forums, doesn't it?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 879Member Uncommon

    depends

    if "hard" means challenging in terms of skill level - yes please

    if "hard" means repetitive aka grinding to infinity - no please

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Yes I am talking about markers that show player where to go (and all changes to gameplay and design that come with it).

    I will use your own words. For me having those is stupid.   What it does it change game into something that is not a game anymore.   You don't need to figure things out, just follow an arrow / marker.  Just following an marker is not playing game for me cause I don't need to think and don't need to make decisions. 

    Because you expect "finding things" to be a part of gameplay. The real gameplay is killing things. Personally, finding things is boring. I have done the paper grid map thing in early computer gaming days. It was no challenge .. just draw your surrounding, and follow a direction, how hard was that? It is .. however .. boring to me.

    I would much prefer follow an arrow to where the combat is. The "going" part preferred to be short and add atmosphere before combat starts.

    Coupling that with easiness of content it mean that I am almost certain that I will complete whatever it is at place that marker show me. 

    Combat shouldn't be too easy. That is why a difficulty setting is useful. You will never find combat too easy because of that.

    So there is no game.  I don't even see what is 'game' part in doing that kind of quest.  Finding things? No. Since I don't find anything.   Figuring things out? No. I have everything presented on a silver platter.   Preparing myself? No. There are no mechanics that require any preparetion.  Combat? No.  95%-99% are solo quest made for low geared most squischy class with goal that most players should complete quest of first try.

    As long as combat has some challenge, that is the "game" for you.

     So with current design there is no single element that require any effort, any decision, thinking or that bring any consequence.

     Really? Which game you are talking about?

    WOW hard mode raid with DPS check requires you to optimize DPS (by using the right gaer and right spec).

    D3 (which is not a MMO, but close enough in playstyle of many players) requires you to be careful particular faced with some combinations of skills of the elite/champ packs. Now you don't have to play in a challenging mode, but the challenging mode is there if you want it (with more loot).

    Regarding guides - solution lies with more randomization of quest placement of quest objevtives. Now monster that is quest objective always spawn in one place (or sometimes in one of two-three pre-definated places). 

    Because finding stuff is not the focus of the game. It is easy to random stuff ... ask yourself why devs don't do it? Because many players look upon finding things as an annoyance, not fun gameplay.

    Solo quest allow for bigger personalization and randomization of those.  Also designing quests with option of failue.

    Many will just try until they succeed. So the 'failure" option is wasted. If you only allow one try, wait for the QQing.

    Basically LESS number of quests, but more complex ones, option to fail and not complete them, more randomization, etc  That is discussion for whole other thread though.

    Randomization has some use .. like in D3 .. give you slightly different terrain to fight in, and spawn monster can come at you at different direction. But it was never about making finding things a more focused part of the gameplay.

    The only kind of non-combat gameplay that i find interestnig is stealth and use of environment objects (like hacking a turret). So i suppose you can count that as getting from point A to B (now that would requires thinking & planning of the route, and avoidance/killing of enemies).

    However, i still don't want search as part of the game. That is just not fun to me. Given that in many stealth game, the objective is marked out for you (Dishonored, & Deus Ex for example) .. i bet that the target audience agree with me.

     

    Sandbox? Yes I like sandbox.   Just have to be well made.  Low-budget indie unfinished ones - I tried I really did try and support them, but even though I don't expect level of polishing I've been reading in topics of Swtor or Gw2 after relase and I can accept bugs as long as they are fixed - I can't stand such low quality product like Mortal Online.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    To answer the question .. YES.

    Just look at the WOW forums when CATA was released. There were a lot of complaint of heroic dungeons (NOT raids) being difficult.

    They nerfed them, and all teh subsequent dungeons (in patches) were easier.

    And the had the same discussions for every other expansion thus far, too.

    Blizzard bounces around like a ping pong ball.  BC--"oops, too much rep grind and atunement mazes, sorry guys".  WoTLK--"oops, we maybe went a tad overboard with the ezmode, sorry guys"  CAT--"oops, we did promise things would be a little rougher, didn't we? sorry guys" MOP=="we'll let you know in a couple of months what folks gripe about this time, kay?"

    Discussion of Blizzard's caving to the masses belongs over on Blizzard's bltchf...er, forums, doesn't it?

    And people complains Blizz does not listen to their players?

    Personally i think D3 monster level is the way to go. Anyway they design their encounters, some will cry "too hard" and some will cry "too easy".

    Just give people an option.

    For WOW, they did it with 3 levels of raids .. they should do it for dungeons (they do have challenge mode dungeons in MOP now), and leveling.

     

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil

    Because you expect "finding things" to be a part of gameplay. The real gameplay is killing things. Personally, finding things is boring. I

     

    Real gameplay is more varied than killing things.    Killing is just one part of gameplay.  Personally I find games that have only or almost only boring.

    For rest of your citations. I was going to cite them all and respond but we did discussions like that for multuiple times and I responded around 50 of your lenght posts or answers to mine posts and that would be just repeating it all over again.

    It all basically start from here.   You find my vision of game and gameplay boring and I find your vision boring. 

     

    edit: one more thing.  Never said about drawing whole map yourself.  General map with cities and villages being shown as you uncover it is ok.   Even if absolutely neccesary mini-map with my character marked and enemies my character see marked is bearable.    

    Anything more is boring.  

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