Unfortunately, the optional challenge that you are talking about is only available at end game. While I am leveling I have to artificially create that challenge for me by doing quests that are way above my level, pulling several groups at the same time and soloing things I am not supposed to solo.
Yeah. That's just called leveling, and it's what good players do. I do downright awesome things when I level, but I doubt anyone cares.
People are complaining that leveling is way too fast, and yet, you find yourself unable to bother with the process to get to the challenge you kind of sort of want.
I'm sorry, but no game is going to cater so specifically to your needs, or mine for that matter. The counter is, "Well, they cater to the unskilled casuals," but that's not true either. The good developers are providing everyone with the tools to enjoy their games at a variety of skill levels. It's up to you to utilize them.
As for your comment about underdeveloped indie MMOs and games, that's what it comes down to. The big successful companies know to make things more accessible with allowances for players of various interests and skill levels, but we're not about to get a AAA Demon Souls MMO anytime soon.
You'll have to make do with artificially created challenges like the rest of us. And don't think of "the rest of us" as the majority. That is a mistake.
Unfortunately, the optional challenge that you are talking about is only available at end game. While I am leveling I have to artificially create that challenge for me by doing quests that are way above my level, pulling several groups at the same time and soloing things I am not supposed to solo.
Yeah. That's just called leveling, and it's what good players do. I do downright awesome things when I level, but I doubt anyone cares.
People are complaining that leveling is way too fast, and yet, you find yourself unable to bother with the process to get to the challenge you kind of sort of want.
I'm sorry, but no game is going to cater so specifically to your needs, or mine for that matter. The counter is, "Well, they cater to the unskilled casuals," but that's not true either. The good developers are providing everyone with the tools to enjoy their games at a variety of skill levels. It's up to you to utilize them.
As for your comment about underdeveloped indie MMOs and games, that's what it comes down to. The big successful companies know to make things more accessible with allowances for players of various interests and skill levels, but we're not about to get a AAA Demon Souls MMO anytime soon.
You'll have to make do with artificially created challenges like the rest of us. And don't think of "the rest of us" as the majority. That is a mistake.
Like you said "it's levelling" <--- that's part of the problem also. It is not just bitching about slow or fast levelling, it is about everything under level cap becoming fast non-important peroid.
Then challange is offered at end game because it is in instances and thus can be completly optional.
Thing is if only important part of the game is in instances then I am not playing mmorpg anymore. With design like that it is just lobby-game. Then open world is just framework for matchaking system for actual content and levelling is well, boring meaningless chore you have to do. Because it is easy, because it is solo, because noone cares much about linear experience you will complete in few days.
I see game companies reasons but I am showing them one big middle finger. I have enough of this. They don't get my money or even my time with current design.
edit: you mentioned earlier Dark Souls. It does not have to be Dark Souls hard, at least not majority of content should. Just this what is now, hordes of trash mobs every 2 square feet in open world you chop through solo levelling experience. Mundane, boring, not fun.
Things like quest gps with arrows and gazzilions of markers + auto-teleport group find just increase this problems.
People are always complaining. Make it easier, more solo content. The problem with listening to such complaints is if the game is made too easy, then people beat it, get bored and leave quicker. Have you noticed most people don't last for most MMOs these days beyond a couple months, if that.
That is because the games are too easy leveling up, too soloable, that people max out and are through. The games need to be tough, challening, but fun and engaging, so people don't get discouraged.
Sure some of the games might be tough at endgame, but is it really tough, or people were just never prepared while leveling to it. Take WoW for example. Most people tend to solo, or now, lfd, but really with no challenge or teamwork necessary. By the time they reach max and start to raid, they don't have a clue how play in a group, as a team. There is a very big lack of coordination.
Eventually they learn, but as they're finally learning how to play their class and know those of their teammates, they are whining that the dungeons are too hard.
Then everything gets nerfed, people steamroll through content, and quit that much sooner, all because it was too easy to start with.
And besides being too easy, MMOs are being simplified more and more, lacking depth. They end up a shallow boring game that people are lucky to play a couple months. Probably less because the games are so incredible easy and swift to go through.
I meant the process of pulling entire areas to kill and soloing monsters that are recommended to be killed in a group is called, "leveling."
SWTOR and GW2 both put emphasis on making the leveling process an experience. But, seriously, no game is going to be able to have everything be challenging to you, like you guys want. Each and every monster being challenging to you is unrealistic. Major MMOs can't do that. Guild Wars 2 monsters used to be harder, and they changed it.
What you're looking for can really only be found in single-player games that have an adjustable difficulty slider/option and can be changed all throughout the game.
In response to the above, developers have tried to make the leveling process longer, and people leave due to slow leveling, grind, etc. Can't win there.
WoW was always ez-mode, it was just a matter of how little of a life you had. Same goes for pretty much every single other MMO out there atm though, easy-mode themeparks that are stale as fuck, not designed to do anything but entertain kids and simpletons.
Few games today offers a real thrill and challenge, with EVE(takes forever to be able to actually compete though, a bit unfortunate) and DF(dead game, let's hope they fixed their shit up and that DFUW will be a blast) being amongst the few examples.
I meant the process of pulling entire areas to kill and soloing monsters that are recommended to be killed in a group is called, "leveling."
SWTOR and GW2 both put emphasis on making the leveling process an experience. But, seriously, no game is going to be able to have everything be challenging to you, like you guys want. Each and every monster being challenging to you is unrealistic. Major MMOs can't do that. Guild Wars 2 monsters used to be harder, and they changed it.
What you're looking for can really only be found in single-player games that have an adjustable difficulty slider/option and can be changed all throughout the game.
I know I played GW2 and seriously this mobs difficulty in first(I think) beta weekend was ok, bit on easy side but breath of fresh air compared to most mmmorpg's. Of course then problem was with mobs density in some areas. Anyway GW2 was first mmoprg I bought and really tried to play in 2 years. Decreasing mobs difficulty was one of things that made me stop playing. Not only thing, but one of.
Besides who said ALL monsters? Thing is there is maybe 1% or even less content in open world that is not cakewalk.
It is not dangerous exciting place anymore, liek you said it is experience. Boring experience.
Also problem is with mobs numbers (too much), whole open world DESIGN that is not made to make an illusion of a world, but to make smooth streamlined solo experience.
Nah it is not only in single player games. Mmorpg's used to be more challanging. Yes it was not perfect, yes it was mundane somethimes still was better than what is now currently.
edit: Anyway I am out for now. Need to grab a coffee and a bit of tired of this topic since it is old thing already.
And that last comment is exactly why devs these days won't listen to gamers.
Because there are so many gamers who might complain about the state of mmo's these days, but the devs know they will just get bored with the topic and go jack themselves up on more caffeine (which might be the cause of the attention deficit a bit).
There are two E's. Challenge. I usually don't point out these things, but after posting for a day, all these common spelling errors are making me sad. Forgive me if English is not your first language, and this is not directed primarily at you. I feel like some people should stop worrying about the trivial things they argue about on the forums and pick up a book or newspaper or something.
Again, not directed at you entirely.
Anyway, 1% to you is challenging. You might be exaggerating, but I found more to be challenging. I'm sure there is someone who finds a lot of it challenging. There was someone who was looking for a game to play with his girlfriend, and he said Guild Wars was not an option due to the skill involved. What skills we take for granted can essentially serve as a barrier for entry for others.
And you illustrated how difficult it is to walk the line of easy and challenging, interesting and mundane. A game is not interesting if it is too easy but games that used to be more challenging risk being slow and mundane. A developer makes content challenging to very skilled players, and they alienate a lot of their less talented gamers. They make leveling slower and more difficult to make it interesting to the people who want it that way, and they might be gambling with making their game a "boring overtuned grind."
There's always something. It shouldn't be surprising as to the business decision that is made.
And that last comment is exactly why devs these days won't listen to gamers.
Because there are so many gamers who might complain about the state of mmo's these days, but the devs know they will just get bored with the topic and go jack themselves up on more caffeine (which might be the cause of the attention deficit a bit).
I am discussing more about those things and was participating in very long sometimes even weeks long discussions than most of players.
I am grabbing a coffee because there is morning in place where I live and I haven't got enough of sleep this night.
Sadly the guy is missing a vital point in his discussion about what happened during the first months of TBC, and why the expansion is so loved now.
TBC levelling. It took quite a lot longer to reach cap. (was nerfed once wotlk was released)
TBC heroics. Dungeons were badly tuned because blizzard used multipliers to determine the damage of bosses. Melee players probably remember unavoidable 360 degree cleave that instantly killed them. Fear that made tanks lose aggro, and mobs instakilled healer during that time.
Massive cries from the community, and all dungeons were nerfed after few months. They were later nerfed again. Not sure if they were nerfed a third time.
TBC Raiding. Bosses were tuned for massive potting+flasking, all bosses were nerfed after four months after they revamped pots. There was a 45 minutes respawn of trash, which was quickly changed due to massive cries from the raiding community. You had raiding attunements, and these were removed because the raiding community asked for it.
Kz raiding. Nightbane was a bonus boss, and not the endboss, and required questing to summon. Plenty of bosses were nerfed (and a rare few were buffed) during the first months, this was before the massive flask revamp.
Magtheridon. Was nerfed to oblivion.
TBC expansion was a horror for most raidgroups at release, and if it hadn't been for the massive changes that were done during the expansion it would never have become so popular. Karazhan is loved among the casual players because it was accessible, and the only reason it became accessible was because it was nerfed big time.
There are two E's. Challenge. I usually don't point out these things, but after posting for a day, all these common spelling errors are making me sad. Forgive me if English is not your first language, and this is not directed primarily at you. I feel like some people should stop worrying about the trivial things they argue about on the forums and pick up a book or newspaper or something.
Again, not directed at you entirely.
Anyway, 1% to you is challenging. You might be exaggerating, but I found more to be challenging. I'm sure there is someone who finds a lot of it challenging. There was someone who was looking for a game to play with his girlfriend, and he said Guild Wars was not an option due to the skill involved. What skills we take for granted can essentially serve as a barrier for entry for others.
And you illustrated how difficult it is to walk the line of easy and challenging, interesting and mundane. A game is not interesting if it is too easy but games that used to be more challenging risk being slow and mundane. A developer makes content challenging to very skilled players, and they alienate a lot of their less talented gamers. They make leveling slower and more difficult to make it interesting to the people who want it that way, and they might be gambling with making their game a "boring overtuned grind."
There's always something. It shouldn't be surprising as to the business decision that is made.
~1% of open world one, not of instances. Instances are not that big of a problem. As for GW2. Well tbh I did not like it's combat, bit too twitchy in pvp and not diverse enough in PvE.
I know that diffrent people find difftent things challanging. It is normal. It is to be expected.
Problem is not with having content of varied difficulty. Problem is that almost all content in open world is insanely easy. Now add a fact that there is also no need for thinking since things like highlights, dynamic feed of messages on screen and arrows (WoW, Lotro, Rift, etc) or big amount of markers(GW2) lead you exact way and free you from figuring things out.
Fast levelling try to mitigate problem of long-levelling for players that want to grind instances with alts at end game,but also forbit to make any sizeable amount of challanging or group content in open world. Challanging because it would slow down levelling, group because of fast levelling and focus on end-game there is very hard to find anyone to do it with you.
Even if you find someone, add it to your freinds list - then if you don't play just one day when this person was playing you will find that thus person overleveleed you by 5-10 levels.
It is not just about challange vs. easy - it is about whole game concept and game design.
Alientating? Sure. Thing is there are alienating more and more potential players anyway. Mmoprg's have no long-lasting appeal and they won't have with current design.
Games from mmofps, mmorts, dota-like games, moba games and lately increasing number of good single player games will contnue to shrink western mmoprg playerbase.
Game companies are betting on f2p and consoles to mitigate it, but it will just slow down things, not solve it.
In GW2, if you found things to be too easy, you could just move on to the next area. Other MMOs prevent you from doing that because they have level requirements for quests, but in Guild Wars 2, you can go anywhere. And when things are higher level than you, they are almost exponentially more difficult to kill.
For how easy everyone is making these games sound, you seem to lack the basic ingenuity to make things challenging for yourself.
In an ideal world, things would be fine-tuned to your individual skill level, but they're not. They can't be. So be smart about it. Find out how to make things fun, and if you can't, it might not be for you. And before you say, "Well, nothing is for me," realize that I know that response is full of crap. It reeks of laziness and the same mentality that you believe got your beloved games in this predicament in the first place.
In GW2, if you found things to be too easy, you could just move on to the next area. Other MMOs prevent you from doing that because they have level requirements for quests, but in Guild Wars 2, you can go anywhere. And when things are higher level than you, they are almost exponentially more difficult to kill.
For how easy everyone is making these games sound, you seem to lack the basic ingenuity to make things challenging for yourself.
In an ideal world, things would be fine-tuned to your individual skill level, but they're not. They can't be. So be smart about it. Find out how to make things fun, and if you can't, it might not be for you. And before you say, "Well, nothing is for me," realize that I know that response is full of crap. It reeks of laziness and the same mentality that you believe got your beloved games in this predicament in the first place.
Sure I can even remove my armor and make things challangine even more. In themepark games I can also easily make things challanging. Just take quest 5 levels higher then me and / or purposely wear worse equimpment.
That's not the point isn't it?
Besides you somehow again and again try to tell that I somehow want "ideal" game where everything will be made for me and every single mob will be challaning. No I don't expect that and I made that perfectly clear in my last 3 posts.
You might want to answer my arguments about game design and my statement about GW2 difficulty in first beta weekend. Because not you just are repeating arguments that are repeated over and over in last years - "undergear doing quests that are high over you own level and overpull". Whole point of threads like this, that keep pooping is because many people are tired of doing those and because that ignores other problems. (+ actually create new ones).
Of course that is ignoring things about game & zone design that include hand-holding elements, very fast levelling (doing things over your level make it even faster) and end-game instance foucs and other things.
Originally posted by rungard players wanted accessibility..developers intrpreted it as they want easy.
Actually--players cried for soloability, from virtually EQ's opening day.
Not for me and not for almost every player I talked to in that game.
I assume you didn't read the message boards at that time?
"More solo-ability" and "Less forced grouping" we the two biggest consumer complaints about EQ for the first half of its existance. Complaints coming from...EQ players.
It's fashionable to blame WoW for the state of the industry. But SOE also installed many of the same changes between 2002 and 2007. So did CoH, and GW, and DAoC, and SWG...and every other MMO in existence.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by rungard players wanted accessibility..developers intrpreted it as they want easy.
Actually--players cried for soloability, from virtually EQ's opening day.
Not for me and not for almost every player I talked to in that game.
I assume you didn't read the message boards at that time?
"More solo-ability" and "Less forced grouping" we the two biggest consumer complaints about EQ for the first half of its existance. Complaints coming from...EQ players.
Every game will have those complaints. Some players will complain about "more soloability" and other players playing exactly same game will complain about "more grouping".
Same with challange.
All developers that are doing non-indie mmorpg's decided to cater to "more soloability" and "make it easier" and now they are getting flak from part of the players. Same as they were getting flak from other subset of players for opposite things back in the day.
Who asked for easy? THE PLAYERS! For example, in vanilla WoW the forums were literally flooded with tears over how people didn't want 40 man raids. They didn't want raids to be "hardcore". They wanted those raids to be experienced by more people not like <1% (Naxx anyone?).
So now they QQ that it is not hard enough. People will always complain no matter want because they have no clue what they want. A developer gives you hard, people QQ that it is too hard/time consuming. A developer nerfs said content, people QQ that they want it to be difficult.
Bottom line is don't try to please players
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
All developers that are doing non-indie mmorpg's decided to cater to "more soloability" and "make it easier" and now they are getting flak from part of the players. Same as they were getting flak from other subset of players for opposite things back in the day.
Well, withoout the new player base geneated during those 02-07 years (converted console players, housewives, teenagers, et al), would the industry have survived at all?
The pendulum always swings back, indeed. Complaining shifts back the other way, the industry turns back towards the middle ground instead of one or the other extreme, and life goes on.
But no matter what happens Reactionaries, let's go back the past folks, naturally won't ever truly stop bitching; that's part of being a reactionary.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I didn't think I needed to respond to it. My post that you were responding to answered it already. Monsters in GW2 were harder. They changed it. Due to feedback. Negative feedback. Keep up.
As for game design, I am assuming you are talking about the markers, indicating where you need to go. FFXI did not have things like that. Quests and their supporting NPC text were also very cryptic. Players basically had to look up all the quests, missions, and, actually, everything on fansites to find out where to go and what to do.
It was stupid. I mean... I liked FFXI, but that was stupid. If you enjoy playing with less information and fleshing out the world through having to dig, there are games that give you less information to go on. To me, they're unintuitive.
It sounds like your type of game is a sandbox that gives you little information and throws you in the thick of things to level. I might be off in that assumption, but I don't particularly find those enjoyable. Those eventually boil down to everyone doing everything ineffectively for a while until a few guides pop up and then the majority abuse the guides to create a huge gap that never really closes. But I digress.
All developers that are doing non-indie mmorpg's decided to cater to "more soloability" and "make it easier" and now they are getting flak from part of the players. Same as they were getting flak from other subset of players for opposite things back in the day.
Well, withoout the new player base geneated during those 02-07 years (converted console players, housewives, teenagers, et al), would the industry have survived at all?
The pendulum always swings back, indeed. Complaining shifts back the other way, the industry turns back towards the middle ground instead of one or the other extreme, and life goes on.
But no matter what happens Reactionaries, let's go back the past folks, naturally won't ever truly stop bitching; that's part of being a reactionary.
Oh it would survive - it would be just much smaller. Games would have smaller budgets, there would be less mmorpg's, etc
Problem is that whole mainstream industry always follow one type of design. This worked in first mmorpg era when many players were either nerds or people that like to try new things, experiement and expect troubles and challange doing that.
Then in 2002+ and especially since 2004 when switch was flipped to "make mmorpg's more accessible over and over gradually" to expand playerbase. It worked for several years, since each solution that made mmorpg's more accesible brought in more players. Well at least till ~2010 it worked.
Now situation is difftent. Playerbase is quite big, but there is less of completly new players and more each year of players that already played one or more mmorpg in their life. Additionally there is not much space to expand to anymore.
Propably last reservoir is console players, but I think it might be shallower pool of players that game companies hope to.
Industry have to start difftent games for difftent player subsets. Following one trend for all mainstream mmorpg's won't work that well anymore.
Originally posted by Magiknight 50% of the people voting for hard are not voting for the same thing. 100% of the people voting for easy are voting for the same thing.
LEL!!! so true
fan of SWG, XCOM, Defiance, Global Agenda, Need For Speed, all Star Wars single player games. And waiting the darn STAR CITIZEN
Industry have to start difftent games for difftent player subsets. Following one trend for all mainstream mmorpg's won't work that well anymore.
I'd speculate that one of the subsets is "first-gen players retiring".
How many of our "vets" claim post-40 ages? Any reason to not believe them? I got to be 50 this year
It's an inevitability of the industry aging; the front end of the bell curve drops off, at approximately the same rate as the incoming trickle of new players. That's how population bell curves work. :shrug:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I didn't think I needed to respond to it. My post that you were responding to answered it already. Monsters in GW2 were harder. They changed it. Due to feedback. Negative feedback. Keep up.
As for game design, I am assuming you are talking about the markers, indicating where you need to go. FFXI did not have things like that. Quests and their supporting NPC text were also very cryptic. Players basically had to look up all the quests, missions, and, actually, everything on fansites to find out where to go and what to do.
It was stupid. I mean... I liked FFXI, but that was stupid. If you enjoy playing with less information and fleshing out the world through having to dig, there are games that give you less information to go on. To me, they're unintuitive.
It sounds like your type of game is a sandbox that gives you little information and throws you in the thick of things to level. I might be off in that assumption, but I don't particularly find those enjoyable. Those eventually boil down to everyone doing everything ineffectively for a while until a few guides pop up and then the majority abuse the guides to create a huge gap that never really closes. But I digress.
I know that they changed it - I played it. I know that there are more players that want easier that those that want harder. I was assuming that is something that does not need to be debated. If you think I advocated change of all or even most mmoprg's to my liking then you had wrong impression.
Whole problem is all non-indie mmorpg's follow one design in terms of challange and other things we talk about in this topic. Think I would bitch about some mmoprpgs on forums If I would have one mmorpg with design more suited for my taste (more not ideally suited) ?
Nah I would play it and I don't even want to play more than one mmorpg anyway so It is not my wish to change most mmoppg's.
As for FF XI - no idea have not played it.
Yes I am talking about markers that show player where to go (and all changes to gameplay and design that come with it).
I will use your own words. For me having those is stupid. What it does it change game into something that is not a game anymore. You don't need to figure things out, just follow an arrow / marker. Just following an marker is not playing game for me cause I don't need to think and don't need to make decisions.
Coupling that with easiness of content it mean that I am almost certain that I will complete whatever it is at place that marker show me.
So there is no game. I don't even see what is 'game' part in doing that kind of quest. Finding things? No. Since I don't find anything. Figuring things out? No. I have everything presented on a silver platter. Preparing myself? No. There are no mechanics that require any preparetion. Combat? No. 95%-99% are solo quest made for low geared most squischy class with goal that most players should complete quest of first try.
So with current design there is no single element that require any effort, any decision, thinking or that bring any consequence.
Regarding guides - solution lies with more randomization of quest placement of quest objevtives. Now monster that is quest objective always spawn in one place (or sometimes in one of two-three pre-definated places).
Solo quest allow for bigger personalization and randomization of those. Also designing quests with option of failue.
Basically LESS number of quests, but more complex ones, option to fail and not complete them, more randomization, etc That is discussion for whole other thread though.
Sandbox? Yes I like sandbox. Just have to be well made. Low-budget indie unfinished ones - I tried I really did try and support them, but even though I don't expect level of polishing I've been reading in topics of Swtor or Gw2 after relase and I can accept bugs as long as they are fixed - I can't stand such low quality product like Mortal Online.
Industry have to start difftent games for difftent player subsets. Following one trend for all mainstream mmorpg's won't work that well anymore.
I'd speculate that one of the subsets is "first-gen players retiring".
How many of our "vets" claim post-40 ages? Any reason to not believe them? I got to be 50 this year
It's an inevitability of the industry aging; the front end of the bell curve drops off, at approximately the same rate as the incoming trickle of new players. That's how population bell curves work. :shrug:
Well I am 'first-gen player' that remember UO times before EQ release and I am still under 30. Besides - actually 'vets' aging will mean that they will start to enter reirement peroid or at least their kids will be adults soon - so some of those oldest players will start to have more free time on their hands in coming years. Currently many vet players are between 35-55 and are very busy working, raising kids, doing business, making their life with their partner. It will look quite diffrent in some years.
Comments
Yeah. That's just called leveling, and it's what good players do. I do downright awesome things when I level, but I doubt anyone cares.
People are complaining that leveling is way too fast, and yet, you find yourself unable to bother with the process to get to the challenge you kind of sort of want.
I'm sorry, but no game is going to cater so specifically to your needs, or mine for that matter. The counter is, "Well, they cater to the unskilled casuals," but that's not true either. The good developers are providing everyone with the tools to enjoy their games at a variety of skill levels. It's up to you to utilize them.
As for your comment about underdeveloped indie MMOs and games, that's what it comes down to. The big successful companies know to make things more accessible with allowances for players of various interests and skill levels, but we're not about to get a AAA Demon Souls MMO anytime soon.
You'll have to make do with artificially created challenges like the rest of us. And don't think of "the rest of us" as the majority. That is a mistake.
Then challange is offered at end game because it is in instances and thus can be completly optional.
Thing is if only important part of the game is in instances then I am not playing mmorpg anymore. With design like that it is just lobby-game. Then open world is just framework for matchaking system for actual content and levelling is well, boring meaningless chore you have to do. Because it is easy, because it is solo, because noone cares much about linear experience you will complete in few days.
I see game companies reasons but I am showing them one big middle finger. I have enough of this. They don't get my money or even my time with current design.
edit: you mentioned earlier Dark Souls. It does not have to be Dark Souls hard, at least not majority of content should. Just this what is now, hordes of trash mobs every 2 square feet in open world you chop through solo levelling experience. Mundane, boring, not fun.
Things like quest gps with arrows and gazzilions of markers + auto-teleport group find just increase this problems.
People are always complaining. Make it easier, more solo content. The problem with listening to such complaints is if the game is made too easy, then people beat it, get bored and leave quicker. Have you noticed most people don't last for most MMOs these days beyond a couple months, if that.
That is because the games are too easy leveling up, too soloable, that people max out and are through. The games need to be tough, challening, but fun and engaging, so people don't get discouraged.
Sure some of the games might be tough at endgame, but is it really tough, or people were just never prepared while leveling to it. Take WoW for example. Most people tend to solo, or now, lfd, but really with no challenge or teamwork necessary. By the time they reach max and start to raid, they don't have a clue how play in a group, as a team. There is a very big lack of coordination.
Eventually they learn, but as they're finally learning how to play their class and know those of their teammates, they are whining that the dungeons are too hard.
Then everything gets nerfed, people steamroll through content, and quit that much sooner, all because it was too easy to start with.
And besides being too easy, MMOs are being simplified more and more, lacking depth. They end up a shallow boring game that people are lucky to play a couple months. Probably less because the games are so incredible easy and swift to go through.
I meant the process of pulling entire areas to kill and soloing monsters that are recommended to be killed in a group is called, "leveling."
SWTOR and GW2 both put emphasis on making the leveling process an experience. But, seriously, no game is going to be able to have everything be challenging to you, like you guys want. Each and every monster being challenging to you is unrealistic. Major MMOs can't do that. Guild Wars 2 monsters used to be harder, and they changed it.
What you're looking for can really only be found in single-player games that have an adjustable difficulty slider/option and can be changed all throughout the game.
In response to the above, developers have tried to make the leveling process longer, and people leave due to slow leveling, grind, etc. Can't win there.
WoW was always ez-mode, it was just a matter of how little of a life you had. Same goes for pretty much every single other MMO out there atm though, easy-mode themeparks that are stale as fuck, not designed to do anything but entertain kids and simpletons.
Few games today offers a real thrill and challenge, with EVE(takes forever to be able to actually compete though, a bit unfortunate) and DF(dead game, let's hope they fixed their shit up and that DFUW will be a blast) being amongst the few examples.
Darkfall Unholy Wars:
Zushakon Odi
I know I played GW2 and seriously this mobs difficulty in first(I think) beta weekend was ok, bit on easy side but breath of fresh air compared to most mmmorpg's. Of course then problem was with mobs density in some areas. Anyway GW2 was first mmoprg I bought and really tried to play in 2 years. Decreasing mobs difficulty was one of things that made me stop playing. Not only thing, but one of.
Besides who said ALL monsters? Thing is there is maybe 1% or even less content in open world that is not cakewalk.
It is not dangerous exciting place anymore, liek you said it is experience. Boring experience.
Also problem is with mobs numbers (too much), whole open world DESIGN that is not made to make an illusion of a world, but to make smooth streamlined solo experience.
Nah it is not only in single player games. Mmorpg's used to be more challanging. Yes it was not perfect, yes it was mundane somethimes still was better than what is now currently.
edit: Anyway I am out for now. Need to grab a coffee and a bit of tired of this topic since it is old thing already.
And that last comment is exactly why devs these days won't listen to gamers.
Because there are so many gamers who might complain about the state of mmo's these days, but the devs know they will just get bored with the topic and go jack themselves up on more caffeine (which might be the cause of the attention deficit a bit).
There are two E's. Challenge. I usually don't point out these things, but after posting for a day, all these common spelling errors are making me sad. Forgive me if English is not your first language, and this is not directed primarily at you. I feel like some people should stop worrying about the trivial things they argue about on the forums and pick up a book or newspaper or something.
Again, not directed at you entirely.
Anyway, 1% to you is challenging. You might be exaggerating, but I found more to be challenging. I'm sure there is someone who finds a lot of it challenging. There was someone who was looking for a game to play with his girlfriend, and he said Guild Wars was not an option due to the skill involved. What skills we take for granted can essentially serve as a barrier for entry for others.
And you illustrated how difficult it is to walk the line of easy and challenging, interesting and mundane. A game is not interesting if it is too easy but games that used to be more challenging risk being slow and mundane. A developer makes content challenging to very skilled players, and they alienate a lot of their less talented gamers. They make leveling slower and more difficult to make it interesting to the people who want it that way, and they might be gambling with making their game a "boring overtuned grind."
There's always something. It shouldn't be surprising as to the business decision that is made.
I am discussing more about those things and was participating in very long sometimes even weeks long discussions than most of players.
I am grabbing a coffee because there is morning in place where I live and I haven't got enough of sleep this night.
So you might want to get off your high horse.
Sadly the guy is missing a vital point in his discussion about what happened during the first months of TBC, and why the expansion is so loved now.
TBC levelling. It took quite a lot longer to reach cap. (was nerfed once wotlk was released)
TBC heroics. Dungeons were badly tuned because blizzard used multipliers to determine the damage of bosses. Melee players probably remember unavoidable 360 degree cleave that instantly killed them. Fear that made tanks lose aggro, and mobs instakilled healer during that time.
Massive cries from the community, and all dungeons were nerfed after few months. They were later nerfed again. Not sure if they were nerfed a third time.
TBC Raiding. Bosses were tuned for massive potting+flasking, all bosses were nerfed after four months after they revamped pots. There was a 45 minutes respawn of trash, which was quickly changed due to massive cries from the raiding community. You had raiding attunements, and these were removed because the raiding community asked for it.
Kz raiding. Nightbane was a bonus boss, and not the endboss, and required questing to summon. Plenty of bosses were nerfed (and a rare few were buffed) during the first months, this was before the massive flask revamp.
Magtheridon. Was nerfed to oblivion.
TBC expansion was a horror for most raidgroups at release, and if it hadn't been for the massive changes that were done during the expansion it would never have become so popular. Karazhan is loved among the casual players because it was accessible, and the only reason it became accessible was because it was nerfed big time.
~1% of open world one, not of instances. Instances are not that big of a problem. As for GW2. Well tbh I did not like it's combat, bit too twitchy in pvp and not diverse enough in PvE.
I know that diffrent people find difftent things challanging. It is normal. It is to be expected.
Problem is not with having content of varied difficulty. Problem is that almost all content in open world is insanely easy. Now add a fact that there is also no need for thinking since things like highlights, dynamic feed of messages on screen and arrows (WoW, Lotro, Rift, etc) or big amount of markers(GW2) lead you exact way and free you from figuring things out.
Fast levelling try to mitigate problem of long-levelling for players that want to grind instances with alts at end game,but also forbit to make any sizeable amount of challanging or group content in open world. Challanging because it would slow down levelling, group because of fast levelling and focus on end-game there is very hard to find anyone to do it with you.
Even if you find someone, add it to your freinds list - then if you don't play just one day when this person was playing you will find that thus person overleveleed you by 5-10 levels.
It is not just about challange vs. easy - it is about whole game concept and game design.
Alientating? Sure. Thing is there are alienating more and more potential players anyway. Mmoprg's have no long-lasting appeal and they won't have with current design.
Games from mmofps, mmorts, dota-like games, moba games and lately increasing number of good single player games will contnue to shrink western mmoprg playerbase.
Game companies are betting on f2p and consoles to mitigate it, but it will just slow down things, not solve it.
In GW2, if you found things to be too easy, you could just move on to the next area. Other MMOs prevent you from doing that because they have level requirements for quests, but in Guild Wars 2, you can go anywhere. And when things are higher level than you, they are almost exponentially more difficult to kill.
For how easy everyone is making these games sound, you seem to lack the basic ingenuity to make things challenging for yourself.
In an ideal world, things would be fine-tuned to your individual skill level, but they're not. They can't be. So be smart about it. Find out how to make things fun, and if you can't, it might not be for you. And before you say, "Well, nothing is for me," realize that I know that response is full of crap. It reeks of laziness and the same mentality that you believe got your beloved games in this predicament in the first place.
Sure I can even remove my armor and make things challangine even more. In themepark games I can also easily make things challanging. Just take quest 5 levels higher then me and / or purposely wear worse equimpment.
That's not the point isn't it?
Besides you somehow again and again try to tell that I somehow want "ideal" game where everything will be made for me and every single mob will be challaning. No I don't expect that and I made that perfectly clear in my last 3 posts.
You might want to answer my arguments about game design and my statement about GW2 difficulty in first beta weekend. Because not you just are repeating arguments that are repeated over and over in last years - "undergear doing quests that are high over you own level and overpull". Whole point of threads like this, that keep pooping is because many people are tired of doing those and because that ignores other problems. (+ actually create new ones).
Of course that is ignoring things about game & zone design that include hand-holding elements, very fast levelling (doing things over your level make it even faster) and end-game instance foucs and other things.
I assume you didn't read the message boards at that time?
"More solo-ability" and "Less forced grouping" we the two biggest consumer complaints about EQ for the first half of its existance. Complaints coming from...EQ players.
It's fashionable to blame WoW for the state of the industry. But SOE also installed many of the same changes between 2002 and 2007. So did CoH, and GW, and DAoC, and SWG...and every other MMO in existence.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Every game will have those complaints. Some players will complain about "more soloability" and other players playing exactly same game will complain about "more grouping".
Same with challange.
All developers that are doing non-indie mmorpg's decided to cater to "more soloability" and "make it easier" and now they are getting flak from part of the players. Same as they were getting flak from other subset of players for opposite things back in the day.
Who asked for easy? THE PLAYERS! For example, in vanilla WoW the forums were literally flooded with tears over how people didn't want 40 man raids. They didn't want raids to be "hardcore". They wanted those raids to be experienced by more people not like <1% (Naxx anyone?).
So now they QQ that it is not hard enough. People will always complain no matter want because they have no clue what they want. A developer gives you hard, people QQ that it is too hard/time consuming. A developer nerfs said content, people QQ that they want it to be difficult.
Bottom line is don't try to please players
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Well, withoout the new player base geneated during those 02-07 years (converted console players, housewives, teenagers, et al), would the industry have survived at all?
The pendulum always swings back, indeed. Complaining shifts back the other way, the industry turns back towards the middle ground instead of one or the other extreme, and life goes on.
But no matter what happens Reactionaries, let's go back the past folks, naturally won't ever truly stop bitching; that's part of being a reactionary.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think you guys are forgeting that Casual players flooded the market, and also mostly they dont check these forums! lol.
and yes casual = easy.
some things just take time to get better at.
or practice would mean nothing at anything.
I didn't think I needed to respond to it. My post that you were responding to answered it already. Monsters in GW2 were harder. They changed it. Due to feedback. Negative feedback. Keep up.
As for game design, I am assuming you are talking about the markers, indicating where you need to go. FFXI did not have things like that. Quests and their supporting NPC text were also very cryptic. Players basically had to look up all the quests, missions, and, actually, everything on fansites to find out where to go and what to do.
It was stupid. I mean... I liked FFXI, but that was stupid. If you enjoy playing with less information and fleshing out the world through having to dig, there are games that give you less information to go on. To me, they're unintuitive.
It sounds like your type of game is a sandbox that gives you little information and throws you in the thick of things to level. I might be off in that assumption, but I don't particularly find those enjoyable. Those eventually boil down to everyone doing everything ineffectively for a while until a few guides pop up and then the majority abuse the guides to create a huge gap that never really closes. But I digress.
Oh it would survive - it would be just much smaller. Games would have smaller budgets, there would be less mmorpg's, etc
Problem is that whole mainstream industry always follow one type of design. This worked in first mmorpg era when many players were either nerds or people that like to try new things, experiement and expect troubles and challange doing that.
Then in 2002+ and especially since 2004 when switch was flipped to "make mmorpg's more accessible over and over gradually" to expand playerbase. It worked for several years, since each solution that made mmorpg's more accesible brought in more players. Well at least till ~2010 it worked.
Now situation is difftent. Playerbase is quite big, but there is less of completly new players and more each year of players that already played one or more mmorpg in their life. Additionally there is not much space to expand to anymore.
Propably last reservoir is console players, but I think it might be shallower pool of players that game companies hope to.
Industry have to start difftent games for difftent player subsets. Following one trend for all mainstream mmorpg's won't work that well anymore.
LEL!!! so true
I'd speculate that one of the subsets is "first-gen players retiring".
How many of our "vets" claim post-40 ages? Any reason to not believe them? I got to be 50 this year
It's an inevitability of the industry aging; the front end of the bell curve drops off, at approximately the same rate as the incoming trickle of new players. That's how population bell curves work. :shrug:
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I know that they changed it - I played it. I know that there are more players that want easier that those that want harder. I was assuming that is something that does not need to be debated. If you think I advocated change of all or even most mmoprg's to my liking then you had wrong impression.
Whole problem is all non-indie mmorpg's follow one design in terms of challange and other things we talk about in this topic. Think I would bitch about some mmoprpgs on forums If I would have one mmorpg with design more suited for my taste (more not ideally suited) ?
Nah I would play it and I don't even want to play more than one mmorpg anyway so It is not my wish to change most mmoppg's.
As for FF XI - no idea have not played it.
Yes I am talking about markers that show player where to go (and all changes to gameplay and design that come with it).
I will use your own words. For me having those is stupid. What it does it change game into something that is not a game anymore. You don't need to figure things out, just follow an arrow / marker. Just following an marker is not playing game for me cause I don't need to think and don't need to make decisions.
Coupling that with easiness of content it mean that I am almost certain that I will complete whatever it is at place that marker show me.
So there is no game. I don't even see what is 'game' part in doing that kind of quest. Finding things? No. Since I don't find anything. Figuring things out? No. I have everything presented on a silver platter. Preparing myself? No. There are no mechanics that require any preparetion. Combat? No. 95%-99% are solo quest made for low geared most squischy class with goal that most players should complete quest of first try.
So with current design there is no single element that require any effort, any decision, thinking or that bring any consequence.
Regarding guides - solution lies with more randomization of quest placement of quest objevtives. Now monster that is quest objective always spawn in one place (or sometimes in one of two-three pre-definated places).
Solo quest allow for bigger personalization and randomization of those. Also designing quests with option of failue.
Basically LESS number of quests, but more complex ones, option to fail and not complete them, more randomization, etc That is discussion for whole other thread though.
Sandbox? Yes I like sandbox. Just have to be well made. Low-budget indie unfinished ones - I tried I really did try and support them, but even though I don't expect level of polishing I've been reading in topics of Swtor or Gw2 after relase and I can accept bugs as long as they are fixed - I can't stand such low quality product like Mortal Online.
Well I am 'first-gen player' that remember UO times before EQ release and I am still under 30. Besides - actually 'vets' aging will mean that they will start to enter reirement peroid or at least their kids will be adults soon - so some of those oldest players will start to have more free time on their hands in coming years. Currently many vet players are between 35-55 and are very busy working, raising kids, doing business, making their life with their partner. It will look quite diffrent in some years.