No. The reason the MMO genre is stuck in the MUD isn't due to skepticism. It's due to publishers and development houses having a known formula that works. It's the same reason the FPS genre hasn't evolved significantly since Gears of War introduced cover based shooting. It's the same reason the RTS genre hasn't evolved significantly since Warcraft III introduced hero units. It's the same reason that the 4X scene hasn't evolved significantly since Master of Orion 2.
The reason, sadly, that we are stuck with clones, is that every time someone tries to "push the genre forward", they do it by doing one of two things:
Introducing a gimmick, without making substantial change. ToR did it, Rift did it, TSW did it, AoC did it, even GW2 did it although they managed to conceal that fact better than most.
or
Trying to change things so drastically that the game flat out fails because there's virtually no frame of reference and the game appeals to, at most, an extremely small niche.
Yet we are doing neither of these. Please don't assume we will fail until we do. We have worked on this for eight years and continue to work on it. Failure comes when you quit or fail to achieve your goals, we have done neither. We continue on toward our goal to make everything we have promised, steadfastly.
And no, I don't know your engine. So far no one knows your engine except you. What I do know is that you, assuming what you're promising is true, have managed to create an engine that utilizes actual artificial intelligence, supports a constantly evolving world that involves emergent gameplay down to the level of flora and fauna at the biome level, individually tailors quests to every unique character, and involves character progression that's classless with 1800-something planned unique skills but that somehow won't require combat to be the most generic, bland combat ever as a result of the total inability to balance encounters. That last one alone sets off the BS meter of anyone who's ever been involved in MMO development, unless, of course, you're also going to claim that your engine can redesign NPCs adaptively on the fly to be appropriate challenges for the players.
I'm sorry, but I have to make a correction to your statement, we never claimed to have created actual artificial intelligence, that is absurd. All we claim is that our NPCs live realistic lives. You should read "Asked and Answered" on our web site, you will see a description of what that means, including, and I quote, "aren’t living people, they are just a good simulation of that." We call the system an A.I. net, not actual artificial intelligence, and explain in layman's terms how this is accomplished. The term "Artificial Intelligence" is used in the game industry to describe various levels of NPC decision making. Actual Artificial Intelligence has never been achieved, nor have we claimed to do so. What we are doing isn't magic, or actual artificial intelligence, it is just a lot of innovative code done over eight years by a team of good programmers.
As for the rest of your list of our accomplishments, yes, we have indeed made those things. Why shouldn't we? We designed ways to accomplish our goals, and then went and did them. As to your opinion on our combat system, well, since you haven't seen it, there is no point to discussing your opinion.
Nothing we are doing is anywhere near impossible, very little is. All it took was a lot of design work, some good engineers, who have experience in building previous game engines, and a lot of time and money. We have been open about our development all along, we didn't just appear a week ago and claim to be working on this.
And I said DF murders the CPU, not the framerate. Technically it does the latter, but only because the game is waiting on CPU cycles to render all the changes. My point was that, while DF is not a magnificent example of design, it involves significant pathfinding, AI, and a constantly changing world - and it hammers the crap out of most any desktop system you can build once you get a large enough population. And it's nowhere near as complex as what you're designing. And my concern there is not desktop systems - if your game is rendering and processing everything client side you've already failed horribly, because your game will be absolutely rife with client side hacking. My assumption is that you're going to be managing all of this through clustering on the server side.
Your assumptions are again, incorrect. We wrote efficient server and client systems, we took our time, and we continue to make sure it is solid and works well. Because we wrote our own, we were not limited to what you may have seen in other systems. We have had our game servers up and running on the net for the past six years. All of our work on the game is done in the running online game. Many of our workers are spread across the globe, so this was necessary. Feel free to come on our forums and talk to any of the people who work in that game world, every day.
How many have I coded? None. I have worked with Unreal Engine 2.5 and 3 pretty extensively, with Unity, with ForgeLight, and very briefly with that trainwreck known as Gamebryo. What you're trying to do is ambitious on a scale that will scare off virtually any large-scale investors you might approach without significantly more than you've said you have available to show right now.
Working with existing game engines isn't experience in making a game engine. Many of us have driven and/or fixed cars all our lives, it does not qualify us to design the engine in it. As to our ambition, yes, we are trying to achieve something new and better, it is always interesting to see people attack someone for trying to give players something better.
Please don't make the false assumption that you know what we have to show to publishers/investors based on what we show the public. Publishers sign an NDA with a company before they get to see behind the curtain. Much of what we have to show is proprietary technology. This is what you want to, incorrectly, claim we don't have or won't work, and the very fact that it really does work makes it valuable to publishers/investors.
With players we talk about what we're doing, and show what we can. With publishers we demonstrate how and show the inner workings of the server/client system, game engine and game building tools.
I fully believe that the engine you're building is theoretically viable in a full scale production MMO environment - and as I said, I'm entirely willing to pitch in significantly to funding. But certainly not until you've got a lot more to show than you do right now, sorry. You mentioned you've approached three - apologies, your dev blogs give the impression you've talked to quite a few more. Even at three, your reception has been exactly what I'd expect with what you've put on offer so far. Two "show us more", and one that wanted it but wasn't financially solvent enough to handle the European economic issues, which means they'd likely have failed you as a publisher in any case.
Over one hundred people have worked on this over the past eight years, with millions spent on technology development. I'm not sure what you think a full scale production involves. We appreciate that you are willing to pitch in when we reach some point where we can show you what you want to see. That day will come. As we have proven, over and over, we keep working on the game, regardless of outside funding, or skepticism.
We have known all along that we would have to prove that certain aspects of this new kind of game could be done, or we would have been going to publishers eight years ago. Most of the games I have pitched and sold to publishers in the past were done solely off of my paper design, but we aimed higher on this one, and therefore, knew we had to do all the R&D ourselves, which is what we have done. However, we are far along on the technology side now, so we're getting close to our current goal, and will then proceed on to the next.
So I guess what I'm saying here is - you need more material up and viewable. You need more specifics regarding your game structure and plans. I realize part of the reason you're doing a kickstarter is to try and get enough funding to get to that point, but even videos of actual, unedited in-game play would go a lot to bolster the confidence of a lot of us that actually have MMO industry experience.
We understand that you want see more, who wouldn't? Everyone always wants to see more, always. If we showed more, players would want to see even more. Basically playerswant to see a finished game, but we can only show pre-alpha since that is where the game is at right now. This has never been kept a secret. The majority of the work done on the game is in the technology (you know, that stuff you keep saying we can't do). Showing technology is not something we can easily do without showing HOW we do it, and we're just not willing to give that away publicly. If this means you won't back our game at this stage, that's something we will just have to live with.
Edit - And I understand you probably don't like reading this, but this should be a sort of a reality check for you. You're ten days into your Kickstarter and haven't even hit 1/10th of your goal. You NEED to release more info than what you have now if you want to come anywhere near $700k.
As we have always stated, whether we make the KS funding or not it will not affect getting the game to Alpha, only the time it takes to do so. We have also released more information on this game than any game in pre-alpha I have ever worked on, and shown far more than most games listed on KS do.
There are pages and pages of information on the game available to anyone who wants to research it. We openly answer any question we can on our forums. Are we going to show you how we do things? No. As I mentioned, this is proprietary technology. It's milloins of dollars worth of work, and it is what publishers and investors will be paying to purchase.
As for donating money on KS to get this genre changing game production sped up, it is completely up to the individual. All we can do is tell you the truth about what we are doing, which we have. We can show you where it's at currently, which we have done. And we can spend all of our own personal time and money (over eight years so far) building it. We do this in the face of attacks by people who have no reason to attack us other than they just can't believe that we can build a better MMORPG. We're doing that too.
I will say that I have absolutely no experience with computer coding or developing a game, let alone what goes on behind the scenes to bring a game to the market place.
However, I do spend a fair amount of time with investments and equities and this reminds me of a story I heard just about three months ago. A long standing silicon valley technology investor who has widely been acknowledged as one of the most successful investors of his time was discussing the Apple phenomenon. Even though he knew the markets, understood the technologies and even forsaw the shift to mobile computing, completely missed the Apple boat. He had put some money into the stock early on, and sold, at a handsome profit, at $25/share. He was telling this story at the time Apple was north of $700/share. He never believed it was possible that Apple could continue to grow. It never seemed plausible that they would change the music world. But they did. It seemed even more remote to him that they could make phones at a profit. But they did. The tablet market was unproven and shouldn't be more than a blip. But it was. So, here is this famous investor sitting here telling a story about how, over and over, things were not possible, but they were. It all seems so easy to see the fortunes of Apple now, but this guy missed out on historic returns because he never believed the hype.
I understand the skepticism. Almost all hype we hear turns out to be false on some level. However, I have been playing computer games since Wizardry, and all I can say is that I am so glad to see that someone is trying to push gaming forward again. I don't think many people would disagree that MMORPG's are in a rut, and have been for a long, long time. So, I certainly can't promise that this game will ever fulfill all of its promises, but I know that for me personally, they are worth backing so they can stay out of the grasp of the large developers that would ultimately destroy the very game they are trying to make.
There are pages and pages of information on the game available to anyone who wants to research it. We openly answer any question we can on our forums. Are we going to show you how we do things? No. As I mentioned, this is proprietary technology.
This, right here, is what I'm talking about. You appear to have forgotten to include a competent business developer in that hundred+ people that have worked on the project. If you had, he or she would have long since told you that when you claim to deliver the moon and stars, you have to have something to back it up if you want serious investment. You can have as much on paper as you want - unless you can demonstrate a working model, or at the very least a non-scripted tech demo, serious investors will have nothing to do with you.
It also helps if you don't get hyperdefensive and attack skeptics, imply they're ignorant, etc. What you SHOULD be doing is taking the immediate reactions of skeptics as areas where you need to release more information - particularly if, as you've pointed out, people are misunderstanding or getting the wrong idea. So far I've never said that your game is a lie, can't work, etc. I've pointed out that you have an incredibly ambitious project, and you've set an extremely high bar for yourself. That is all. I genuinely hope that your game works out as planned, and I genuinely hope that you get the funding you need to make it happen. If it does, I'll be one of your players on day 1.
In the meantime, you might consider going and having a nice relaxing cup of tea, and then rereading what I've posted, and taking it as what it is, instead of trying to read it as me arguing that your project is doomed. Just a thought.
There are pages and pages of information on the game available to anyone who wants to research it. We openly answer any question we can on our forums. Are we going to show you how we do things? No. As I mentioned, this is proprietary technology.
This, right here, is what I'm talking about. You appear to have forgotten to include a competent business developer in that hundred+ people that have worked on the project. If you had, he or she would have long since told you that when you claim to deliver the moon and stars, you have to have something to back it up if you want serious investment. You can have as much on paper as you want - unless you can demonstrate a working model, or at the very least a non-scripted tech demo, serious investors will have nothing to do with you.
It also helps if you don't get hyperdefensive and attack skeptics, imply they're ignorant, etc. What you SHOULD be doing is taking the immediate reactions of skeptics as areas where you need to release more information - particularly if, as you've pointed out, people are misunderstanding or getting the wrong idea. So far I've never said that your game is a lie, can't work, etc. I've pointed out that you have an incredibly ambitious project, and you've set an extremely high bar for yourself. That is all. I genuinely hope that your game works out as planned, and I genuinely hope that you get the funding you need to make it happen. If it does, I'll be one of your players on day 1.
In the meantime, you might consider going and having a nice relaxing cup of tea, and then rereading what I've posted, and taking it as what it is, instead of trying to read it as me arguing that your project is doomed. Just a thought.
I think you should give in with the condesending cup of tea , and acknowledge what has been said.
The Technical challenges has all been achieved, what is being said with respect to feature where it is being said is also true. What is missing now is just time and effort , and the developers acknowledge that.
Maybe a bit of praise or recognition; Because I guess Jatar spend a good deal of his precious time responding to someone who finds it hard to believe what they have designed and achieved with the toolsets they have developed.
There is not reason to disbelieve what the CoS Devs are currently saying, what have they to gain. It is surprising what can be acheived if you think outside of the box. And in reality they are basing what they have done on providing a good gameplay experience.
And they hyperdefensive coment is laughable, as if you know something works and someone says it doesn't you are in a position to point out the obvious which is what Jatar has done.
You may not like it , but then thats your problem.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I feel this game is worth a notice,but until there is full accessgaming,it is just paper work.The way it looks to me so far,i would say the game has no chance of being triple a quality and pledging will not change unless these guys made 100 million in pledges and totally revamped the game.
I do like the idea of the game but it simply takes too much money and this game is already in it's development stage.This means yo uare going to get a sub par quality game no matter what.All the pledges do is keep the team going and give them a chance to publish and run servers,it will not change the quality of the game.
I think the industry is just not smart enough to allow Indie developers a chance.Game engine developers should allow sahre holder licenses,that way Indie devs have top quality tools and engines to make a good game.Example Epic should allow these guys a free license and take a % of profits.As is you get nothing from them and the quality fo gaming is sub par.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think the industry is just not smart enough to allow Indie developers a chance.Game engine developers should allow sahre holder licenses,that way Indie devs have top quality tools and engines to make a good game.Example Epic should allow these guys a free license and take a % of profits.As is you get nothing from them and the quality fo gaming is sub par.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
While the game sounds interesting, I get the impression it will be heavly instanced. The main city acting as a hub, similar to gw1. Just my impression from readin up on them.
Originally posted by monarc333 While the game sounds interesting, I get the impression it will be heavly instanced. The main city acting as a hub, similar to gw1. Just my impression from readin up on them.
In a sense yes, but not exactly. These are not instances (exact copies of the same thing) but different versions of the whole world where details are different. This allows for larger variations in how your story goes since a king could be evil in one world and good on another leading to different results and a deeper story.
However, there are "community worlds" where many players can exist at once and do large scale activities in big numbers. There are many interesting kinds of community activities including but not limited to incursions into the evil lands...etc
There are pages and pages of information on the game available to anyone who wants to research it. We openly answer any question we can on our forums. Are we going to show you how we do things? No. As I mentioned, this is proprietary technology.
This, right here, is what I'm talking about. You appear to have forgotten to include a competent business developer in that hundred+ people that have worked on the project. If you had, he or she would have long since told you that when you claim to deliver the moon and stars, you have to have something to back it up if you want serious investment. You can have as much on paper as you want - unless you can demonstrate a working model, or at the very least a non-scripted tech demo, serious investors will have nothing to do with you.
It also helps if you don't get hyperdefensive and attack skeptics, imply they're ignorant, etc. What you SHOULD be doing is taking the immediate reactions of skeptics as areas where you need to release more information - particularly if, as you've pointed out, people are misunderstanding or getting the wrong idea. So far I've never said that your game is a lie, can't work, etc. I've pointed out that you have an incredibly ambitious project, and you've set an extremely high bar for yourself. That is all. I genuinely hope that your game works out as planned, and I genuinely hope that you get the funding you need to make it happen. If it does, I'll be one of your players on day 1.
In the meantime, you might consider going and having a nice relaxing cup of tea, and then rereading what I've posted, and taking it as what it is, instead of trying to read it as me arguing that your project is doomed. Just a thought.
I have drank my cup of tea, and will now conclude with this: I understand where your skeptcism comes from, we are promising a lot. Only we know for sure that we are delivering on that promise. We will do so, and I will then invite you to come play. I look forward to the day we enjoy a quest together in CoS.
WOW. Why have I never heard of this game before? As an explorer first and foremost I cant believe this game slipped past my knowledge. Must of been blinded by GW2 hype lol. Anyways I just pledged $500 as everything I have read of the game sounds amazing.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Originally posted by Zylaxx WOW. Why have I never heard of this game before? As an explorer first and foremost I cant believe this game slipped past my knowledge. Must of been blinded by GW2 hype lol. Anyways I just pledged $500 as everything I have read of the game sounds amazing.
If I woulden't have pleged all my cash an Star Citizen I sure would support this game aswell. Its a shame for this industry, that only the Indy Dev. can come up with inovations had have to finance them self over kickstarter.
If I woulden't have pleged all my cash an Star Citizen I sure would support this game aswell. Its a shame for this industry, that only the Indy Dev. can come up with inovations had have to finance them self over kickstarter.
I hope they make it!
Actually, nothing will stop us from finishinig Citadel of Sorcery. Things like Kickstarter are just options, not requirements. We have self financed the building of an entire new engine and tool set, and we can and will do what it takes to make the rest of the game play work. A big part of that is the incredible support of a small group of people who have donated millions of dollars. You may not see that on the KS page, but trust me when I tell you that it has been donated, and continues to be donated. They believes in this, and we're starting to convince some others as well. The further we get , the more will be convinced, it's the snow ball affect.
We just wish people would give us the benefit of the doubt since we have so steadfastly continued to build exactly what we have promised for so long. But, even severe doubters and skeptics can be convinced, they just need to see more than some people.
We understand, but everyone could see it all working sooner if more people would believe now.
If I woulden't have pleged all my cash an Star Citizen I sure would support this game aswell. Its a shame for this industry, that only the Indy Dev. can come up with inovations had have to finance them self over kickstarter.
I hope they make it!
Actually, nothing will stop us from finishinig Citadel of Sorcery. Things like Kickstarter are just options, not requirements. We have self financed the building of an entire new engine and tool set, and we can and will do what it takes to make the rest of the game play work. A big part of that is the incredible support of a small group of people who have donated millions of dollars. You may not see that on the KS page, but trust me when I tell you that it has been donated, and continues to be donated. They believes in this, and we're starting to convince some others as well. The further we get , the more will be convinced, it's the snow ball affect.
We just wish people would give us the benefit of the doubt since we have so steadfastly continued to build exactly what we have promised for so long. But, even severe doubters and skeptics can be convinced, they just need to see more than some people.
We understand, but everyone could see it all working sooner if more people would believe now.
Donated? Or Invested, there is a difference.
Some of us are doubting Thomas's, but can you blame us, our experiences has been littered with broken promises and shattered dreams.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If I woulden't have pleged all my cash an Star Citizen I sure would support this game aswell. Its a shame for this industry, that only the Indy Dev. can come up with inovations had have to finance them self over kickstarter.
I hope they make it!
Actually, nothing will stop us from finishinig Citadel of Sorcery. Things like Kickstarter are just options, not requirements. We have self financed the building of an entire new engine and tool set, and we can and will do what it takes to make the rest of the game play work. A big part of that is the incredible support of a small group of people who have donated millions of dollars. You may not see that on the KS page, but trust me when I tell you that it has been donated, and continues to be donated. They believes in this, and we're starting to convince some others as well. The further we get , the more will be convinced, it's the snow ball affect.
We just wish people would give us the benefit of the doubt since we have so steadfastly continued to build exactly what we have promised for so long. But, even severe doubters and skeptics can be convinced, they just need to see more than some people.
We understand, but everyone could see it all working sooner if more people would believe now.
Donated? Or Invested, there is a difference.
Some of us are doubting Thomas's, but can you blame us, our experiences has been littered with broken promises and shattered dreams.
I donated on the KS page and hope you guys get all the funding.
I do think it's interesting that this project hasn't captured more interest. Need more marketing? Need to jump on the hype train? Need to give out more info in places and less info in others? I wonder if people just think it's all BS because it's over the top...
Good luck, guys. Lots of blood, sweat and tears invested in this one.
I think most games out there certainly dont lack promises, hype, and good ideas. What ends up lacking is the execution of these ideas.
While theres been countless games who have started on fantastic ideas with a laundry list of features we all want, ew if any have been able to successfully exectute them in a manner that is both unique and enjoyable.
Most unique indy games hit a wall with delivering a smooth/fluid and entertaining combat, the foundation of a good mmorpg. Others end up promising groundbreaking and revolutionary ideas that when executed is just the same old repackaged, GW2 did this quite successfully, it was obvious too, but many bit the hype and were in too deep to change their minds when it became apparent.
Dont hype this game untill its ready to go, indy developers have burned more mmorpg players than havent, and people are sick of getting behind good ideas on paper that turn out to be unplayable, unfun, and anything but unique when executed.
I applaud when developers stick to their guns, their vision, and ignore the cries from the zombies who want every game they play to be exactly the same, easy, and lacking of any risk tied into their rewards.
My issue with this game is simple. I hear a lot a vauge "good ideas" that i have no idea how it will be executed. I find solid and final information about what the game will be like again vauge. Yeah exploration...how...why...what will be unique about it ect? Exploration is good, but not when its forced, surprises are key to exploration and it stops being exploration when you need an npc to give you a reward for going there.
Aside from that...the basics of this game, the pvp/pve ruleset...the combat...the endgame...all the important factors to longevity...not sure what they are and its hard to get behind a game without knowing all this in detail.
Again...everything is so vauge and adding the usual buzzwords doesnt help convice me, maybe others it will...but im not sure what information others are going off of to convice them to donate money.
I wish this the best of luck, but untill theres specifics, demonstarations with gameplay footage...this is just another game with a lot of buzzwords.
I think most games out there certainly dont lack promises, hype, and good ideas. What ends up lacking is the execution of these ideas.
While theres been countless games who have started on fantastic ideas with a laundry list of features we all want, ew if any have been able to successfully exectute them in a manner that is both unique and enjoyable.
Most unique indy games hit a wall with delivering a smooth/fluid and entertaining combat, the foundation of a good mmorpg. Others end up promising groundbreaking and revolutionary ideas that when executed is just the same old repackaged, GW2 did this quite successfully, it was obvious too, but many bit the hype and were in too deep to change their minds when it became apparent.
Dont hype this game untill its ready to go, indy developers have burned more mmorpg players than havent, and people are sick of getting behind good ideas on paper that turn out to be unplayable, unfun, and anything but unique when executed.
I applaud when developers stick to their guns, their vision, and ignore the cries from the zombies who want every game they play to be exactly the same, easy, and lacking of any risk tied into their rewards.
My issue with this game is simple. I hear a lot a vauge "good ideas" that i have no idea how it will be executed. I find solid and final information about what the game will be like again vauge. Yeah exploration...how...why...what will be unique about it ect? Exploration is good, but not when its forced, surprises are key to exploration and it stops being exploration when you need an npc to give you a reward for going there.
Aside from that...the basics of this game, the pvp/pve ruleset...the combat...the endgame...all the important factors to longevity...not sure what they are and its hard to get behind a game without knowing all this in detail.
Again...everything is so vauge and adding the usual buzzwords doesnt help convice me, maybe others it will...but im not sure what information others are going off of to convice them to donate money.
I wish this the best of luck, but untill theres specifics, demonstarations with gameplay footage...this is just another game with a lot of buzzwords.
Yep. I also have been disappointed over the years with games promising and then not delivering. However, moving forward, you are either an optomist or a pessimist. I know we cannot see a working model of the systems they have created, but I find fault with you accusing them of not providing details. They have many posts on forums and on their home page detailing many systems they will be using. Surely, at a pre-alpha stage, you don't expect them to show everything to the competition who can then parasitize all of their ideas?
I have enjoyed gaming since I was a little boy with Atari. I still want to believe that there are great games out there being developed that will be fun to play and keep my interest for a long time. The past several years of gaming for me has been very disappointing. No game has managed to keep my attention for more than a month or so. It is a sad state of affairs. So, again, moving forward, you are either an optomist or a pessimist. I choose to be an optomist. I reasearch a lot of games, and this is the one I have chosen to follow and support. Donating money to their cause is not an issue for me. I spend a lot more money on my mortgage, bills and other leisure activities, so this is just my small nod to a group of people trying to shake up the genre. For me, it is money well spent, and my hope lives eternal.
Again...everything is so vauge and adding the usual buzzwords doesnt help convice me, maybe others it will...but im not sure what information others are going off of to convice them to donate money.
Everything you asked about has been detailed as much as possible on their forums. It's Pre-Alpha. Not Alpha. Not Beta. Not shipping in a few months. Pre-Alpha.
If you think they're going to show you how they do things other people say are "impossible".. I think you're going to be disappointed. The whole point is that they spent 8+ years developing and designing how to do it.
Would you throw your proprietary ideas and how you accomplished them up on the web, after years and millions of R&D so that other people could take them?
Just look at this year's PAX panel where the top developers were saying some of these features were needed, but they had no idea how to do them. Do you really think that would sit back and say "wow, good job figuring it out!" if it was all explained and in the open for them to use?
No, they would be running off to their teams to write the exact same thing first.
Gaming is a cut throat industry. It's why most companies don't show ANYTHING until late Alpha or Beta, and ESPECIALLY not HOW they do things.
If you REALLY want to know something, rather than just posting about your doubt because you don't want to research or read their site, you could go register on their forums and ASK THEM. They are extremely open (up to a point) with everything.
These people are a fraud. I got banned from thier site for exposing them. Basically they decided to start a raffle with the KS program. They clained anyone who donated to KS would be entered into the raffle. I posted about how I got the vibe they would not honor thier claims and evetually started a new funding project on thier own site asking for money using the raffle. That's exactly what happen.. They claimed it happen because Kickstarter canceled the raffle as it was against the terms of the site.. BTW.. they also "lost" access to everyone emails who donated on KS. SO now they have to repledge on thier site to get a chance at a raffle. It's a total scam and people need to understand this was their plan all along with the raffle program. They never intended to honor the program. It's a money grab. This game has basically no info and nothing more than a demo.. Fund at you own risk but i'm betting you never see a real return on your money as this game will never hit the market.
They deleted my post from the site.. After they killed my access.. Anyone following games long enough should be able to take a look at what they actually have and know it's BS.
Novice member claiming fraud. So, am I to believe that you write all of this because you care about me and are concerned about what I do with my money? Surely, you jest. Also, I am not looking for a return on my money. This is not investing. This is donating to help a cause that many of us believe in.
I will continue to both support and follow this project. But thanks for your heartfelt deep concern anyway. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know I have a guardian angel looking after my well being.
These people are a fraud. I got banned from thier site for exposing them. Basically they decided to start a raffle with the KS program. They clained anyone who donated to KS would be entered into the raffle. I posted about how I got the vibe they would not honor thier claims and evetually started a new funding project on thier own site asking for money using the raffle. That's exactly what happen.. They claimed it happen because Kickstarter canceled the raffle as it was against the terms of the site.. BTW.. they also "lost" access to everyone emails who donated on KS. SO now they have to repledge on thier site to get a chance at a raffle. It's a total scam and people need to understand this was their plan all along with the raffle program. They never intended to honor the program. It's a money grab. This game has basically no info and nothing more than a demo.. Fund at you own risk but i'm betting you never see a real return on your money as this game will never hit the market.
They deleted my post from the site.. After they killed my access.. Anyone following games long enough should be able to take a look at what they actually have and know it's BS.
Novice member claiming fraud. So, am I to believe that you write all of this because you care about me and are concerned about what I do with my money? Surely, you jest. Also, I am not looking for a return on my money. This is not investing. This is donating to help a cause that many of us believe in.
I will continue to both support and follow this project. But thanks for your heartfelt deep concern anyway. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know I have a guardian angel looking after my well being.
Do what you want. It's your money. Just remember this post:-) Or actualy research yourself.. better yet ask Kickstarter if they really prohibited that raffle on their site!? Don't take my word for anything. Look into it yourself.
P.S. We have the same amount of posts on this site.. I've just been a memeber a lot longer..=P
Comments
Very interesting point and counterpoint.
I will say that I have absolutely no experience with computer coding or developing a game, let alone what goes on behind the scenes to bring a game to the market place.
However, I do spend a fair amount of time with investments and equities and this reminds me of a story I heard just about three months ago. A long standing silicon valley technology investor who has widely been acknowledged as one of the most successful investors of his time was discussing the Apple phenomenon. Even though he knew the markets, understood the technologies and even forsaw the shift to mobile computing, completely missed the Apple boat. He had put some money into the stock early on, and sold, at a handsome profit, at $25/share. He was telling this story at the time Apple was north of $700/share. He never believed it was possible that Apple could continue to grow. It never seemed plausible that they would change the music world. But they did. It seemed even more remote to him that they could make phones at a profit. But they did. The tablet market was unproven and shouldn't be more than a blip. But it was. So, here is this famous investor sitting here telling a story about how, over and over, things were not possible, but they were. It all seems so easy to see the fortunes of Apple now, but this guy missed out on historic returns because he never believed the hype.
I understand the skepticism. Almost all hype we hear turns out to be false on some level. However, I have been playing computer games since Wizardry, and all I can say is that I am so glad to see that someone is trying to push gaming forward again. I don't think many people would disagree that MMORPG's are in a rut, and have been for a long, long time. So, I certainly can't promise that this game will ever fulfill all of its promises, but I know that for me personally, they are worth backing so they can stay out of the grasp of the large developers that would ultimately destroy the very game they are trying to make.
hang the publishers high , murder their project managers who only see $$ and see us endconsumers as catlle.
kickstarter is no more risk in my book that an for example EA released games .
With EA likes i know theres a high chance that i get a overpriced product and theres notin i can do bout it .
Kickstarter however ...when i get screwed by a developer once ...tha devt will become history ...and i most likely only spend 20 bucks instead of 50 .
Kickstarter brings the artist and the gamer closer together ......fuck all inbetweeners
This, right here, is what I'm talking about. You appear to have forgotten to include a competent business developer in that hundred+ people that have worked on the project. If you had, he or she would have long since told you that when you claim to deliver the moon and stars, you have to have something to back it up if you want serious investment. You can have as much on paper as you want - unless you can demonstrate a working model, or at the very least a non-scripted tech demo, serious investors will have nothing to do with you.
It also helps if you don't get hyperdefensive and attack skeptics, imply they're ignorant, etc. What you SHOULD be doing is taking the immediate reactions of skeptics as areas where you need to release more information - particularly if, as you've pointed out, people are misunderstanding or getting the wrong idea. So far I've never said that your game is a lie, can't work, etc. I've pointed out that you have an incredibly ambitious project, and you've set an extremely high bar for yourself. That is all. I genuinely hope that your game works out as planned, and I genuinely hope that you get the funding you need to make it happen. If it does, I'll be one of your players on day 1.
In the meantime, you might consider going and having a nice relaxing cup of tea, and then rereading what I've posted, and taking it as what it is, instead of trying to read it as me arguing that your project is doomed. Just a thought.
I think you should give in with the condesending cup of tea , and acknowledge what has been said.
The Technical challenges has all been achieved, what is being said with respect to feature where it is being said is also true. What is missing now is just time and effort , and the developers acknowledge that.
Maybe a bit of praise or recognition; Because I guess Jatar spend a good deal of his precious time responding to someone who finds it hard to believe what they have designed and achieved with the toolsets they have developed.
There is not reason to disbelieve what the CoS Devs are currently saying, what have they to gain. It is surprising what can be acheived if you think outside of the box. And in reality they are basing what they have done on providing a good gameplay experience.
And they hyperdefensive coment is laughable, as if you know something works and someone says it doesn't you are in a position to point out the obvious which is what Jatar has done.
You may not like it , but then thats your problem.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I feel this game is worth a notice,but until there is full accessgaming,it is just paper work.The way it looks to me so far,i would say the game has no chance of being triple a quality and pledging will not change unless these guys made 100 million in pledges and totally revamped the game.
I do like the idea of the game but it simply takes too much money and this game is already in it's development stage.This means yo uare going to get a sub par quality game no matter what.All the pledges do is keep the team going and give them a chance to publish and run servers,it will not change the quality of the game.
I think the industry is just not smart enough to allow Indie developers a chance.Game engine developers should allow sahre holder licenses,that way Indie devs have top quality tools and engines to make a good game.Example Epic should allow these guys a free license and take a % of profits.As is you get nothing from them and the quality fo gaming is sub par.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
http://www.unrealengine.com/licensing/ <-- they already do that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In a sense yes, but not exactly. These are not instances (exact copies of the same thing) but different versions of the whole world where details are different. This allows for larger variations in how your story goes since a king could be evil in one world and good on another leading to different results and a deeper story.
However, there are "community worlds" where many players can exist at once and do large scale activities in big numbers. There are many interesting kinds of community activities including but not limited to incursions into the evil lands...etc
I have drank my cup of tea, and will now conclude with this: I understand where your skeptcism comes from, we are promising a lot. Only we know for sure that we are delivering on that promise. We will do so, and I will then invite you to come play. I look forward to the day we enjoy a quest together in CoS.
The game does sound really nice........ I'm debating if I should put my buck on a nice dinner with my wife or this game.....
umm
must....consider.....
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I feel cheap for doing a $30 pledge......
If I woulden't have pleged all my cash an Star Citizen I sure would support this game aswell. Its a shame for this industry, that only the Indy Dev. can come up with inovations had have to finance them self over kickstarter.
I hope they make it!
Actually, nothing will stop us from finishinig Citadel of Sorcery. Things like Kickstarter are just options, not requirements. We have self financed the building of an entire new engine and tool set, and we can and will do what it takes to make the rest of the game play work. A big part of that is the incredible support of a small group of people who have donated millions of dollars. You may not see that on the KS page, but trust me when I tell you that it has been donated, and continues to be donated. They believes in this, and we're starting to convince some others as well. The further we get , the more will be convinced, it's the snow ball affect.
We just wish people would give us the benefit of the doubt since we have so steadfastly continued to build exactly what we have promised for so long. But, even severe doubters and skeptics can be convinced, they just need to see more than some people.
We understand, but everyone could see it all working sooner if more people would believe now.
Donated? Or Invested, there is a difference.
Some of us are doubting Thomas's, but can you blame us, our experiences has been littered with broken promises and shattered dreams.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Both.
I donated on the KS page and hope you guys get all the funding.
I do think it's interesting that this project hasn't captured more interest. Need more marketing? Need to jump on the hype train? Need to give out more info in places and less info in others? I wonder if people just think it's all BS because it's over the top...
Good luck, guys. Lots of blood, sweat and tears invested in this one.
I think most games out there certainly dont lack promises, hype, and good ideas. What ends up lacking is the execution of these ideas.
While theres been countless games who have started on fantastic ideas with a laundry list of features we all want, ew if any have been able to successfully exectute them in a manner that is both unique and enjoyable.
Most unique indy games hit a wall with delivering a smooth/fluid and entertaining combat, the foundation of a good mmorpg. Others end up promising groundbreaking and revolutionary ideas that when executed is just the same old repackaged, GW2 did this quite successfully, it was obvious too, but many bit the hype and were in too deep to change their minds when it became apparent.
Dont hype this game untill its ready to go, indy developers have burned more mmorpg players than havent, and people are sick of getting behind good ideas on paper that turn out to be unplayable, unfun, and anything but unique when executed.
I applaud when developers stick to their guns, their vision, and ignore the cries from the zombies who want every game they play to be exactly the same, easy, and lacking of any risk tied into their rewards.
My issue with this game is simple. I hear a lot a vauge "good ideas" that i have no idea how it will be executed. I find solid and final information about what the game will be like again vauge. Yeah exploration...how...why...what will be unique about it ect? Exploration is good, but not when its forced, surprises are key to exploration and it stops being exploration when you need an npc to give you a reward for going there.
Aside from that...the basics of this game, the pvp/pve ruleset...the combat...the endgame...all the important factors to longevity...not sure what they are and its hard to get behind a game without knowing all this in detail.
Again...everything is so vauge and adding the usual buzzwords doesnt help convice me, maybe others it will...but im not sure what information others are going off of to convice them to donate money.
I wish this the best of luck, but untill theres specifics, demonstarations with gameplay footage...this is just another game with a lot of buzzwords.
Yep. I also have been disappointed over the years with games promising and then not delivering. However, moving forward, you are either an optomist or a pessimist. I know we cannot see a working model of the systems they have created, but I find fault with you accusing them of not providing details. They have many posts on forums and on their home page detailing many systems they will be using. Surely, at a pre-alpha stage, you don't expect them to show everything to the competition who can then parasitize all of their ideas?
I have enjoyed gaming since I was a little boy with Atari. I still want to believe that there are great games out there being developed that will be fun to play and keep my interest for a long time. The past several years of gaming for me has been very disappointing. No game has managed to keep my attention for more than a month or so. It is a sad state of affairs. So, again, moving forward, you are either an optomist or a pessimist. I choose to be an optomist. I reasearch a lot of games, and this is the one I have chosen to follow and support. Donating money to their cause is not an issue for me. I spend a lot more money on my mortgage, bills and other leisure activities, so this is just my small nod to a group of people trying to shake up the genre. For me, it is money well spent, and my hope lives eternal.
Everything you asked about has been detailed as much as possible on their forums. It's Pre-Alpha. Not Alpha. Not Beta. Not shipping in a few months. Pre-Alpha.
If you think they're going to show you how they do things other people say are "impossible".. I think you're going to be disappointed. The whole point is that they spent 8+ years developing and designing how to do it.
Would you throw your proprietary ideas and how you accomplished them up on the web, after years and millions of R&D so that other people could take them?
Just look at this year's PAX panel where the top developers were saying some of these features were needed, but they had no idea how to do them. Do you really think that would sit back and say "wow, good job figuring it out!" if it was all explained and in the open for them to use?
No, they would be running off to their teams to write the exact same thing first.
Gaming is a cut throat industry. It's why most companies don't show ANYTHING until late Alpha or Beta, and ESPECIALLY not HOW they do things.
If you REALLY want to know something, rather than just posting about your doubt because you don't want to research or read their site, you could go register on their forums and ASK THEM. They are extremely open (up to a point) with everything.
Snip
Novice member claiming fraud. So, am I to believe that you write all of this because you care about me and are concerned about what I do with my money? Surely, you jest. Also, I am not looking for a return on my money. This is not investing. This is donating to help a cause that many of us believe in.
I will continue to both support and follow this project. But thanks for your heartfelt deep concern anyway. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know I have a guardian angel looking after my well being.
Do what you want. It's your money. Just remember this post:-) Or actualy research yourself.. better yet ask Kickstarter if they really prohibited that raffle on their site!? Don't take my word for anything. Look into it yourself.
P.S. We have the same amount of posts on this site.. I've just been a memeber a lot longer..=P