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Paying subs for an MMO is an outdated model

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chryses

    There are multiple ways for a gamer to get a fix.  In the past 3 years I have seen a trend of MMO's being packed for 3 months at launch then dying a quick death.  Players won't commit to an MMO long term if there is a sub. 
    There is always a new MMO on the horizon or a new console or game being released.

    That doesn't make sense.

    If all mmo's had subs then hopping to a new game that also has a sub wouldn't  change anything.

    Besides, the reason these games are only holding their audience for a few months is that they only have a few months of content and then players have to wait for the next influx. This is a problem that is indicative of theme park mmo's.

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Cash Shops at their core undermine the very nature of what an MMORPG is. I am firmly of the belief that you start with nothing and if it's something you want, you go out and get it. If you can't go out and get it, you find other people who will go out and get it and you can buy it with gold you earned in the game. If you can't find someone who can/will sell what you want, you find other people who also want what you want and you all go out together and get it. Cash Shops destroy this concept. Even if there is something in the shop that you can get, in game through game play but someone else doesn't have to get it now because it's in the shop, well guess what? Now there are that many less players who will work with you to get what you want. I absolutely despise Cash Shops, I quit my favorite game of all time (Anarchy Online) because of it. A game that could have been revived is now a dead shell of it's former self. Not to mention they want a sub along with the shop. Nope Never doing that one again.
  • JackFrostyJackFrosty Edmonton, ALPosts: 103Member

    OP: I'm sorry but back in the real world, you are 100% wrong.

    WoW has 10 million subs and is still the most successful mmo ever made.

    It has lost more subs then most mmo's ever dream of having (even f2p ones) and still has 10 million to spare 8 yrs later.

    When I wake up, the real nightmare begins

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon
    It's a non-issue to me; I pay 160 USD once every 2 years for my game of choice, and I am totally satisfied with it.  As I only have to think about payment once every couple of years the game basically feels like it's free, and I don't have to put up with any of that cash shop or free area nonsense.  One world, one 'verse, one love.  I'll keep playing as long as the ship keeps sailing.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Really? They need to go B2P or F2P? It has nothing to do with the fact that all the new games are just the same ones over and over? And the fact that they now make whats called "end game" which equals repeating the same damn raid/dungeons over and over until they are easy to repeat with all the gear you unlocked while completing them.... no it couldn't be that... people hate playing new games!!! BRING ON MORE OF THE SAME AND BLAME THE PAYMENT MODEL!!!! 
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,734Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    as long as there's no cash shop idc what model they have.

     

    that's my only condition: no cash shop. rest is up to them.

            I dont even remember the last time I looked at a cash shop to be honest...To me its much less of a deterrant than a sub model......THe cash shop is fine because you determine what you pay (often nothing) instead of a sub model where its $10+ regardless of how little you play.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,142Member Uncommon
    Yes, yes, ... paying in restaurants, groceries, ... is outdated. Should be put free to public. People should work 24h/day for OTHERS to enjoy.
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    Subs only is the fairest model...

     

    All the other models try to trick players intoo spending more then what they would spend on a sub. And obviously it works.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member
    Bitching about paying a sub is an outdated topic.

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member
    I disagree, I prefer sub based/no cash shop, but that has become a dream in itself it seems....But I still like the sub based system.  I f something is good, I do not mind paying a sub, it is a pitance for the amount of time spent on a good game imo.  I also like the climate of a sub game, over free.
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon

    It depends on the game. I'm no longer prepeared to pay a sub for WoW, due to the changes made over the years. I no longer think it's worth a sub but I'd probably still dabble if it was FTP.

    On the other hand I have a subscription to EVE which is worth every penny IMHO, and I'll happily pay it because the game is worth it.

    I un-subbed from TOR because it was a poor game, and even when it goes FTP I can't see me going back, because it's a poor game.

    So it really depends on the game, not the payment model. Make a good game and you can charge a sub. Simple.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,142Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

    .....

    I un-subbed from TOR because it was a poor game, and even when it goes FTP I can't see me going back, because it's a poor game.

    ....

    Actually is great game. Only game so far I continue to pay sub as act of support despite I'm not playing it for last 2 to 3 months. No matter if somebody love some food can not eat 5 times per day for years and years. So I felt need for detour of few months to half year. In mean time will continue to be subbed.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Istavaan
    I doubt any new mmo will launch with a subscription fee, it's just not cost effective. the subscription model only works for one game all the rest cannot keep players satisfied hence why they all go f2p.

    There are multiple MMOs that do a monthly fee, and monthly fee has never been "a scam" it has existed for a very specific reason. MMO servers are expensive.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    Lately I was thinking about it again, when reading about SOE ideas in business model and  their plans to Introduce of Krono and plans to monetize player's creation and so on.

     

    It is just more and more clear to me that for MMORPG's  ONLY model that is working for me is subscirption without ANY cash shops, rmah's, plex, gems and any stuff like that.  Box + sub + expansions ONLY.

     

    Since both gameplay and business model trends are going into totally opposite direction that what I like in mmorpg's - it seem that my hiatus in playing mmropg's will continue.  

     

     

    PS. Other type of MMO, like mmofps, mmorts, and others - don't care I am not really interested in them anyway.

     

     

     

  • YakamomotoYakamomoto Osaka, ARPosts: 363Member
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    Bitching about paying a sub is an outdated topic.

    ^this 100%

     

    good games deserve a sub

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    Bitching about paying a sub is an outdated topic.

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,069Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yakamomoto
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
    Bitching about paying a sub is an outdated topic.

    ^this 100%

     

    good games deserve a sub

    agreed here !

    I ll pay for my favorites mmo's with satisfied

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by chryses

    MMO's are going to have to go to a FTP / BTP model otherwise they won't survive.

    In 2001 I started playing MMO's and I happily paid a sub due to the lack of MMO's out there.  Not to mention virtually no competition from console or PC.  (Wii, smartphones, hand held devices didn't even exist!)

    In today's market there are:

    - consoles

    - PC single player games like Skyrim

    - Hand held devices

    - dozens of MMO's

    - Wii

    - Flash games on Face book

    - Smart phones / iPad

    There are multiple ways for a gamer to get a fix.  In the past 3 years I have seen a trend of MMO's being packed for 3 months at launch then dying a quick death.  Players won't commit to an MMO long term if there is a sub.  There is always a new MMO on the horizon or a new console or game being released.

    An MMO needs a lot of population or by its very nature it dies badly.  FTP / BTP is the only model that will work going forward and if companies insist on sticking with a sub model, then they have literally set themselves up to fail.

    My thread isn't a support thread for FTP / BTP btw.  Its about the changing gaming market and how subs are not justifiable anymore.

     

    SWTOR proved that there are plenty of people who are more than willing to pay a subscription for an MMO (as well as paying a high box price).

    They're just not willing to pay a sub for a game that's not good enough to justify keeping on paying for.

    You're right in that we're long past the day when all online games are automatically able to command a subscription, but subscriptions are still a viable payment model. They're just not the only viable model in the spectrum any more, and not one that's appropriate for limited-content themeparks.

    If Publishers want to go with a subscription model for their Shiny New MMO™ then they also have to provide continued content upgrades, live events, frequent patching, game engine development and so on. In short, they're going going to have to earn that sub money by doing something more than paying the server bills. CCP are good example here; they charge a subscription, but their expansions are all free, they're still continuously developing & polishing EVE almost 10 years after launch, they allow a 14 or 21 day free trial, and there's no "box price" to pay up front, and they've quietly backed away from their misguided attempt to introduce a cash shop. And there is actually a free-to-play option with the very clever PLEX system. Those guys are justifying their subscription charges (even if you personally don't happen to like EVE).

    Conversely look at TSW: Box price, sub and a cash shop, for a game with limited quantities of themepark entertainment. It's brilliant that it's got an original theme, but the fact is that the monetisation model just isn't appropriate. They might have been better advised to go with a low-priced B2P and/or DLC route. Certainly their "triple whammy" model hasn't exactly inspired customers.

    In short, publishers need to chose a monetisation model that fits with their game. EVE going F2P would break a number of game mechanics horribly. Casual massively singleplayer grinder games are best served by F2P/Cash shop. Story-based games like TSW are no-brainer candidates for the DLC model.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • KingGatorKingGator Tampa, FLPosts: 453Member

    Why do gamers continually come out in favor of a model that will cost them more money 90% of the time, well unless you're a broke college student that can grind all week for items that take a couple days to get in a sub game?

     

    f2p isn't free, just like government healthcare and welfare programs, you pay one way or another, and usually the price is higher than what you'd pay otherwise. 

     

    memo to the world; people don't make a business to give you things for free, they do so to make money. There is no such thing as free 2 play.

  • MalcanisMalcanis LondonPosts: 3,191Member
    Originally posted by JackFrosty

    OP: I'm sorry but back in the real world, you are 100% wrong.

    WoW has 10 million subs and is still the most successful mmo ever made.

    It has lost more subs then most mmo's ever dream of having (even f2p ones) and still has 10 million to spare 8 yrs later.

     

    A very large number of those "10 million" (Isn't it 9 million now?) accounts aren't supported with a regular subscription.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    If I actually saw any benefit from my sub in any game ever I'd be willing to continue engaging in said business model.  The fact is I've seen no less botting, gold spam, or hacking, no more content, no better gameplay, no better customer service, cash shops on top of subs, etc etc.  If there was a game where I actually felt my sub had value I'd sub in a heartbeat.  DF:UW is the first game in 3 years that I actually find worth paying the sub to check it out and that's largely because they're giving me the game for free anyway.

    Steam: Neph

  • f0dell54f0dell54 Des Moines, IAPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by DSWBeef
    I disagree totally. The reason soo many sub games fail is not due to the model but how they are made. SWTOR, Wow clone, RIFT wow clone at lunch, WAR  buggy mess, VG buggy mess, AION grind, TSW no end game. The list goes on and on. Sub will work if the game is unique and not broken.

     

    Rift is a sub based game and it does work. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that other don't.

  • SimphanaticSimphanatic Marion, IAPosts: 92Member
    Originally posted by chryses

    There are multiple ways for a gamer to get a fix. 

    And therein lies the problem, insofar as game-creator mentality resides.

     

    I have an iPhone and iPad, but I've never once considered playing a game on them. Not once. I'm not looking for a fix or short-term gratification. Consequently, I'm not currently playing any online game.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I crave the experience of a good MMO, but I'm tired of the ubiquitous brain dead, treadmill-based pablum that developers can't resist puking out.

     

    I will never again waist my time on another escalator ride -- unless there's meaningful scenery on the way up and even more substantive content once I've gotten there. 

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chryses

    MMO's are going to have to go to a FTP / BTP model otherwise they won't survive.

    In 2001 I started playing MMO's and I happily paid a sub due to the lack of MMO's out there.  Not to mention virtually no competition from console or PC.  (Wii, smartphones, hand held devices didn't even exist!)

    In today's market there are:

    - consoles

    - PC single player games like Skyrim

    - Hand held devices

    - dozens of MMO's

    - Wii

    - Flash games on Face book

    - Smart phones / iPad

    There are multiple ways for a gamer to get a fix.  In the past 3 years I have seen a trend of MMO's being packed for 3 months at launch then dying a quick death.  Players won't commit to an MMO long term if there is a sub.  There is always a new MMO on the horizon or a new console or game being released.

    An MMO needs a lot of population or by its very nature it dies badly.  FTP / BTP is the only model that will work going forward and if companies insist on sticking with a sub model, then they have literally set themselves up to fail.

    My thread isn't a support thread for FTP / BTP btw.  Its about the changing gaming market and how subs are not justifiable anymore.

     

    This argument makes no sense. People pay for value. If there is a game that has value in a monthly sub, people will pay for it. If there is no value, people won't. There is nothing to be outdated. Value never gets old. If someone creates a $15.00/mo experience that is a value, then it's not out dated. If someone releases a game with no replayability and/or poor ongoing game play, there is no value in a monthly fee.

    Too many people are getting the quality of released products not being worth a monthly fee and the developer's decision to use the wrong billing model, confused with the validity of the model itself. 

     

    It's not like B2P has been fully embraced either. I think many players are starting to see the true nature behind this model. Especially in the last 12 hrs. Thing is, I don't care what you personally believe the publisher's ideals are. Whether they are an altruistic benevolent group of allaround nice guys, or whehter they are a bunch of bottom feeding, pond scum sucking predators or whether they are just another company trying to turn a profit with a reasonable product at a reasonable price, it doesn't matter. It's a fact. If you do not use the cash shop, you are generating overhead with no further return on investment. That is, you cost them money.

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