Originally posted by Istavaan I would pay a sub fee if there was an mmo worth the sub fee but no mmo out there is worth 15 a month, after paying 60 dollars for the box aswell. wow charges players 15 dollars a month and they had no update for 8 months, then they charge people another 60 dollars for an xpac and you have to pay a subcription of 15 dollars to even play the xpac that you just bought..ridiculous, i no i won't be buying into that scam anyone more.
Proof in the pudding to my prior statement. They "value" their dollar too highly.
While I understand there are Poor and Low Income gamers out there...The OP's stance of paying subs being an "oudtaded model" would imply that it's become "dated" and not used anymore...quite not true.
Quite the contrary it's the F2P people that are becoming dated and losing their voice.
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor, it has to do with what you get back for your money and the current subscription model you get very little back. This is why i hate blizzard they make so much money and they don't even put 5% of it back into their game.
I persoanlly don't see a future for P2P either even though it has become all the rage in phone/tablet game apps as well: there is something that feels sleazy about that model when they prevent you from doing basic, useful things unless you give them cash. There's already quite a backlash trying to get iTunes to create a 3rd category of really, truly free games vs. the P2P that are lumped in the "free" category. People will get tired of having that nagging feeling of having been had.
B2P online games otoh, although not new (Diablo, GW, FPS, Sports games, etc.), is the wave of the future. Once upon a time in the MMO world it was only the lesser "near-MMOs" that had this model. But the line between "full-featured" subscription MMOs and B2P titles is getting blurry. GW2, regardless of whether you like it or not, is undoubtedly much more full-featured than any previous B2P title. Totally so, imho. Its impact on MMO business models can't be ignored.
And about cash shops--as long as they stay away from the F2P model with their purchase-only classes, races, dungeons, etc--are not even relevant in the B2P discussion. Everyone will have a different opinion on what is "needed" and some will hate cash shops no matter what, but there's a significant difference between having to buy the Drows in D&D online and the fluffy pirate suit or even more bank space in GW2.
The difference in my mind is this: You can play and participate in all the features of GW2 without spending a penny beyond the original purchase price... you can't with the cash shops featured in F2P MMOs. Since that is their one and only F2P source of revenues and B2P games recoup their development costs and make a tidy profit off the original sale (just like single player stand-alone games do) the difference in cash shop content makes sense.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I persoanlly don't see a future for P2P either even though it has become all the rage in phone/tablet game apps as well: there is something that feels sleazy about that model when they prevent you from doing basic, useful things unless you give them cash. There's already quite a backlash trying to get iTunes to create a 3rd category of really, truly free games vs. the P2P that are lumped in the "free" category. People will get tired of having that nagging feeling of having been had.
B2P online games otoh, although not new (Diablo, GW, FPS, Sports games, etc.), is the wave of the future. Once upon a time in the MMO world it was only the lesser "near-MMOs" that had this model. But the line between "full-featured" subscription MMOs and B2P titles is getting blurry. GW2, regardless of whether you like it or not, is undoubtedly much more full-featured than any previous B2P title. Totally so, imho. Its impact on MMO business models can't be ignored.
And about cash shops--as long as they stay away from the F2P model with their purchase-only classes, races, dungeons, etc--are not even relevant in the B2P discussion. Everyone will have a different opinion on what is "needed" and some will hate cash shops no matter what, but there's a significant difference between having to buy the Drows in D&D online and the fluffy pirate suit or even more bank space in GW2.
The difference in my mind is this: You can play and participate in all the features of GW2 without spending a penny beyond the original purchase price... you can't with the cash shops featured in F2P MMOs. Since that is their one and only F2P source of revenues and B2P games recoup their development costs and make a tidy profit off the original sale (just like single player stand-alone games do) the difference in cash shop content makes sense.
So you are angry that they are ensuring that not a single perosn can freeload? Maybe they are doing it well then, I didn't think they were honestly.
I think Blizzard is proving the Subscription based model is far from outdated too btw. Haven't played WoW in almost 3 years now, but it was well worth the monthly sub I payed, as was Asheron's Call, Ultima Online (Still paying a sub, cant lose my keep, lol), and Dark Age of Camelot. If an mmo is good people will pay. I don't think the subscription model is dead.
Originally posted by Tayah I think Blizzard is proving the Subscription based model is far from outdated too btw. Haven't played WoW in almost 3 years now, but it was well worth the monthly sub I payed, as was Asheron's Call, Ultima Online (Still paying a sub, cant lose my keep, lol), and Dark Age of Camelot. If an mmo is good people will pay. I don't think the subscription model is dead.
Oh my god do I wish for a DAOC RvRvR remake lol. All the crazy mixtures of classes and races... -(
This is a prime example of people using their own perspective as a rule.
Some people prefer FTP.
Some people hate FTP and want a monthly sub.
Not everyone is the same and there is enough room for both models if they are done correctly and are a food product.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
This is a single assessment on MMO Business models, not including all or Hybrids, just some of the major ones. Nothing anyone says, including myself is written in stone, however this is how MMO Business models have played out in my experience as a gamer and viewpoint of a "business person"
Buy 2 Play + Cash shop: The beauty behind this is that the developers then have active incentive to continue creating content at a faster pace, not trash either since if they push out junk it wont sell (in theory) so they will also have to push out timely content with a solid quality to sell.
Buy 2 Play + Subscriptions: The subscription model was great in theory, but so is communism...The company was making its money regularly and has no incentive to push out regular and quality content, or barely even fix issues in a quick manner. The subscription companies would only work harder when they were threatened by competition or losing revenue, effectively milking the system until they cant anymore. Not only that most subscription companies take it a step further and add in virtual item stores even though subscribers are paying alot of money per month. I used to love the sub model until I took a good look and compared it to the others.
The only subscription that would be worth its value in todays markets would be if a large portion of the profits went towards active game/dungeon masters to make a dynamic and live world since then you would be paying for a professional admin to enhance the game with living NPCs, on demand customer service, or an army of programmers to push out content with rapid frequency. The whole server costs excuse is definitely no longer relevant for monthly fees.
Free 2 Play : The problem with complete F2P is that there is no initial revenue to float the company on release and they then have to nickel and dime players to make decent revenue streams. This usually leads to buy to win systems when the company needs big boost in revenues since this method of sales appeals to casual gamers who dont care for vanity items but will buy things to make their gaming more effective. There are times when it balances out, but when the Buy to win comes into play, even if it is a negligble advantage (Especially in PVP content), gamers have a knee jerk reaction...rightfully so imo as one of those gamers.
IMO B2P like ANET system is the realistically the most fair for gamers AND companies, subscriptions are completely fine but are mishandled by companies due to greed and customer complacency. Basically the B2P model is the closest thing to a free market business model for MMOs, demand for content will drive incentive to sell as long as the quality is there. The other models currently have their priorities in the wrong places such as B2P+Sub places "level grinds and.or gear treadmills" as content substitutes to extend subscriptions, or buy 2 win to highly incentivize cash shops for Free to Play games that cannot stabilize their cash shop for consistent revenue.
Also I love Roxtarr's sig, it shows a bit of how our MMO Gamer community argues on payment models and the mutual distaste for anything that isnt completely free AND AAA content
No thanks. I will take my sub and access to everything the game has to offer instead of being nickled and dimed for bag space, or another slot in my bank, or entry to the next area of the game, or crafting materials, etc, etc...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
While I understand there are Poor and Low Income gamers out there...The OP's stance of paying subs being an "oudtaded model" would imply that it's become "dated" and not used anymore...quite not true.
Quite the contrary it's the F2P people that are becoming dated and losing their voice.
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor, it has to do with what you get back for your money and the current subscription model you get very little back. This is why i hate blizzard they make so much money and they don't even put 5% of it back into their game.
Paying subs is the cheapest way to play a game these days; Well that is if you wan't to play the actual game and not just a mindless subset with no value.
People are starting to realise that , paying gets better quality and actually costs less. As the F2P games are getting weaker and weaker the bubble will busrst and the mindless hopefuilly will stay with the trash.
And the Employed and Educated will pay improving both the game and player quality.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
While I understand there are Poor and Low Income gamers out there...The OP's stance of paying subs being an "oudtaded model" would imply that it's become "dated" and not used anymore...quite not true.
Quite the contrary it's the F2P people that are becoming dated and losing their voice.
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor, it has to do with what you get back for your money and the current subscription model you get very little back. This is why i hate blizzard they make so much money and they don't even put 5% of it back into their game.
Blizzard is run by buffoons.
Wait...wait...wait. Then how do they eat each other's fleas in a suit coat like that!?
Paying subs is the cheapest way to play a game these days; Well that is if you wan't to play the actual game and not just a mindless subset with no value.
People are starting to realise that , paying gets better quality and actually costs less. As the F2P games are getting weaker and weaker the bubble will busrst and the mindless hopefuilly will stay with the trash.
And the Employed and Educated will pay improving both the game and player quality.
So you are angry that they are ensuring that not a single perosn can freeload? Maybe they are doing it well then, I didn't think they were honestly.
Lol no. First, I'm not angry and second I only object to characterizing something as "Free" when it isn't...capice?
"Shareware" is a much more honest way of characterizing a crippled product--and that is still the term used for non-gaming programs to distinguish them from truly free...which, btw, exist in large quantities out there.
For example. "Gimp," is a full-featured photo editing pprogram that rivals the $600+ Photoshop. It was originally developed in Gnu but is now available for any OS including Windows... if you consider Gimp users freeloaders then I don't know what to say to you.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So you are angry that they are ensuring that not a single perosn can freeload? Maybe they are doing it well then, I didn't think they were honestly.
Lol no. First, I'm not angry and second I only object to characterizing something as "Free" when it isn't...capice?
"Shareware" is a much more honest way of characterizing a crippled product--and that is still the term used for non-gaming programs to distinguish them from truly free...which, btw, exist in large quantities out there.
For example. "Gimp," is a full-featured photo editing pprogram that rivals the $600+ Photoshop. It was originally developed in Gnu but is now available for any OS including Windows... if you consider Gimp users freeloaders then I don't know what to say to you.
That would be find for a single player game like Morrowind or the craptastic game of what's it called? "Arrow to the knee." But for a constant bandwidth, constant up game like an MMO...nah. Even if such thing would be possible, I wouldn't go to support it.
I doubt any new mmo will launch with a subscription fee, it's just not cost effective. the subscription model only works for one game all the rest cannot keep players satisfied hence why they all go f2p.
So you are angry that they are ensuring that not a single perosn can freeload? Maybe they are doing it well then, I didn't think they were honestly.
Lol no. First, I'm not angry and second I only object to characterizing something as "Free" when it isn't...capice?
"Shareware" is a much more honest way of characterizing a crippled product--and that is still the term used for non-gaming programs to distinguish them from truly free...which, btw, exist in large quantities out there.
For example. "Gimp," is a full-featured photo editing pprogram that rivals the $600+ Photoshop. It was originally developed in Gnu but is now available for any OS including Windows... if you consider Gimp users freeloaders then I don't know what to say to you.
That would be find for a single player game like Morrowind or the craptastic game of what's it called? "Arrow to the knee." But for a constant bandwidth, constant up game like an MMO...nah. Even if such thing would be possible, I wouldn't go to support it.
You obviously don't play FPS or Sports games... you pay for the program and then play online forever for free if you want... but hey, it's your money. Spend it as you like.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
people are just conditioned to think mmo's should have a subscription fee, if you asked someone who hasn't played an mmo what they think about paying 15 dollars a month for a game they already paid 60 dollars for, they'd simple say "are you high"..it's a scam and always has been.
Originally posted by Istavaan I doubt any new mmo will launch with a subscription fee, it's just not cost effective. the subscription model only works for one game all the rest cannot keep players satisfied hence why they all go f2p.
Asheron's Call has been monthly sub since release and 10+ years later is fine.
DFO has been running on monthly sub basis and is fine.
People are linking money to content, which is only half the story...
I hand over my money every month, and yeh after a while I would like some more content, expecially if I had to pay for the original game. But I also expect much more ~ that the game is kept in a playable state, the servers to be kept stable, bugs fixed, scammers banned, hackers banned, trolls banned, etc etc. Some of the sub games I have played have delivered (most, if not all) these things, so I happily payed my sub every month. If they fail to do these things (some sub games have failed badly in some of these areas) I cancel my sub and take my money elsewhere ~ its an ongoing relationship, sub/service. If you keep your subbies happy, you get rich...if you piss them off, you go bankrupt.
In F2P games, you can expect these things all you want, but you sure as hell wont get them. You are playing a game for free, the developers owe you nothing. I find it hilarious to see people flame about game quality/bugs/lag/exploits/trolls in a game they have contributed nothing towards...why the hell should they fix these things for you? You mean nothing to them...
And I really dont understand the hype about B2P. B2P is possibly the worst (not in the case of gw2, before you start fan-boying) system imagainable. You hand over a lump of money for a game that relies on ongoing servers/updates/fixes/etc, yet form no ongoing relationship with the developers. They have given you initial content, and owe you nothing beyond this ~ so just like F2P they are under no obligation to deliver anything to you in the way of maintenance/updates. At least in F2P you didnt spend any money...B2P they front load money and can easily just firetruck off. If you are lucky, they will throw you a bone a few weeks before they want to sell you an update, they disapear again.
Sub is the better system, hands down. As many people have already said, its all in the delivery.
Originally posted by Istavaan people are just conditioned to think mmo's should have a subscription fee, if you asked someone who hasn't played an mmo what they think about paying 15 dollars a month for a game they already paid 60 dollars for, they'd simple say "are you high"..it's a scam and always has been.
You would be probably asking a console gamer or someone who's gone F2P mmo their entire meager existences. When they've upped to the quality of a real MMO...I'd doubt they'd have that view or change it very quickly.
The "little guy" has no firm foundation here...this is a MMO haven.
MMO's must go FTP to survive 'cause ppl aren't prepared to pay a sub?
Games should go FTP since ppl aren't prepared to pay for them ...
See what i did there?
People are always prepared to pay for quality, and i have no problems paying for a good service. As for a FTP model Hellgate has actually hit a rather decent balance. As soon as people mention FTP i start thinking of 2000+ Zynga-games ... *shivers*
No, i much rather pay a sub than having to buy health potions for real cash or a xp/stat-boost to be able to play at a realistic level.
Comments
Proof in the pudding to my prior statement. They "value" their dollar too highly.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor, it has to do with what you get back for your money and the current subscription model you get very little back. This is why i hate blizzard they make so much money and they don't even put 5% of it back into their game.
I persoanlly don't see a future for P2P either even though it has become all the rage in phone/tablet game apps as well: there is something that feels sleazy about that model when they prevent you from doing basic, useful things unless you give them cash. There's already quite a backlash trying to get iTunes to create a 3rd category of really, truly free games vs. the P2P that are lumped in the "free" category. People will get tired of having that nagging feeling of having been had.
B2P online games otoh, although not new (Diablo, GW, FPS, Sports games, etc.), is the wave of the future. Once upon a time in the MMO world it was only the lesser "near-MMOs" that had this model. But the line between "full-featured" subscription MMOs and B2P titles is getting blurry. GW2, regardless of whether you like it or not, is undoubtedly much more full-featured than any previous B2P title. Totally so, imho. Its impact on MMO business models can't be ignored.
And about cash shops--as long as they stay away from the F2P model with their purchase-only classes, races, dungeons, etc--are not even relevant in the B2P discussion. Everyone will have a different opinion on what is "needed" and some will hate cash shops no matter what, but there's a significant difference between having to buy the Drows in D&D online and the fluffy pirate suit or even more bank space in GW2.
The difference in my mind is this: You can play and participate in all the features of GW2 without spending a penny beyond the original purchase price... you can't with the cash shops featured in F2P MMOs. Since that is their one and only F2P source of revenues and B2P games recoup their development costs and make a tidy profit off the original sale (just like single player stand-alone games do) the difference in cash shop content makes sense.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So you are angry that they are ensuring that not a single perosn can freeload? Maybe they are doing it well then, I didn't think they were honestly.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Oh my god do I wish for a DAOC RvRvR remake lol. All the crazy mixtures of classes and races...
-(
This is a prime example of people using their own perspective as a rule.
Some people prefer FTP.
Some people hate FTP and want a monthly sub.
Not everyone is the same and there is enough room for both models if they are done correctly and are a food product.
--John Ruskin
This is a single assessment on MMO Business models, not including all or Hybrids, just some of the major ones. Nothing anyone says, including myself is written in stone, however this is how MMO Business models have played out in my experience as a gamer and viewpoint of a "business person"
Buy 2 Play + Cash shop: The beauty behind this is that the developers then have active incentive to continue creating content at a faster pace, not trash either since if they push out junk it wont sell (in theory) so they will also have to push out timely content with a solid quality to sell.
Buy 2 Play + Subscriptions: The subscription model was great in theory, but so is communism...The company was making its money regularly and has no incentive to push out regular and quality content, or barely even fix issues in a quick manner. The subscription companies would only work harder when they were threatened by competition or losing revenue, effectively milking the system until they cant anymore. Not only that most subscription companies take it a step further and add in virtual item stores even though subscribers are paying alot of money per month. I used to love the sub model until I took a good look and compared it to the others.
The only subscription that would be worth its value in todays markets would be if a large portion of the profits went towards active game/dungeon masters to make a dynamic and live world since then you would be paying for a professional admin to enhance the game with living NPCs, on demand customer service, or an army of programmers to push out content with rapid frequency. The whole server costs excuse is definitely no longer relevant for monthly fees.
Free 2 Play : The problem with complete F2P is that there is no initial revenue to float the company on release and they then have to nickel and dime players to make decent revenue streams. This usually leads to buy to win systems when the company needs big boost in revenues since this method of sales appeals to casual gamers who dont care for vanity items but will buy things to make their gaming more effective. There are times when it balances out, but when the Buy to win comes into play, even if it is a negligble advantage (Especially in PVP content), gamers have a knee jerk reaction...rightfully so imo as one of those gamers.
IMO B2P like ANET system is the realistically the most fair for gamers AND companies, subscriptions are completely fine but are mishandled by companies due to greed and customer complacency. Basically the B2P model is the closest thing to a free market business model for MMOs, demand for content will drive incentive to sell as long as the quality is there. The other models currently have their priorities in the wrong places such as B2P+Sub places "level grinds and.or gear treadmills" as content substitutes to extend subscriptions, or buy 2 win to highly incentivize cash shops for Free to Play games that cannot stabilize their cash shop for consistent revenue.
Also I love Roxtarr's sig, it shows a bit of how our MMO Gamer community argues on payment models and the mutual distaste for anything that isnt completely free AND AAA content
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Blizzard is run by buffoons.
What a joke post by the OP:
Paying subs is the cheapest way to play a game these days; Well that is if you wan't to play the actual game and not just a mindless subset with no value.
People are starting to realise that , paying gets better quality and actually costs less. As the F2P games are getting weaker and weaker the bubble will busrst and the mindless hopefuilly will stay with the trash.
And the Employed and Educated will pay improving both the game and player quality.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Disagree. Some of the most popular MMOs out there are still subscriber only.
Sub model works great for sandboxes and core MMORPGs.
It doesn't work well for themeparks/aka WoW clones.
Wait...wait...wait. Then how do they eat each other's fleas in a suit coat like that!?
Hat's off man...hat's off....
Lol no. First, I'm not angry and second I only object to characterizing something as "Free" when it isn't...capice?
"Shareware" is a much more honest way of characterizing a crippled product--and that is still the term used for non-gaming programs to distinguish them from truly free...which, btw, exist in large quantities out there.
For example. "Gimp," is a full-featured photo editing pprogram that rivals the $600+ Photoshop. It was originally developed in Gnu but is now available for any OS including Windows... if you consider Gimp users freeloaders then I don't know what to say to you.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That would be find for a single player game like Morrowind or the craptastic game of what's it called? "Arrow to the knee." But for a constant bandwidth, constant up game like an MMO...nah. Even if such thing would be possible, I wouldn't go to support it.
You obviously don't play FPS or Sports games... you pay for the program and then play online forever for free if you want... but hey, it's your money. Spend it as you like.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
+1
Asheron's Call has been monthly sub since release and 10+ years later is fine.
DFO has been running on monthly sub basis and is fine.
WoW
DAoC
etc...
There are plenty that have been and will do fine.
People are linking money to content, which is only half the story...
I hand over my money every month, and yeh after a while I would like some more content, expecially if I had to pay for the original game. But I also expect much more ~ that the game is kept in a playable state, the servers to be kept stable, bugs fixed, scammers banned, hackers banned, trolls banned, etc etc. Some of the sub games I have played have delivered (most, if not all) these things, so I happily payed my sub every month. If they fail to do these things (some sub games have failed badly in some of these areas) I cancel my sub and take my money elsewhere ~ its an ongoing relationship, sub/service. If you keep your subbies happy, you get rich...if you piss them off, you go bankrupt.
In F2P games, you can expect these things all you want, but you sure as hell wont get them. You are playing a game for free, the developers owe you nothing. I find it hilarious to see people flame about game quality/bugs/lag/exploits/trolls in a game they have contributed nothing towards...why the hell should they fix these things for you? You mean nothing to them...
And I really dont understand the hype about B2P. B2P is possibly the worst (not in the case of gw2, before you start fan-boying) system imagainable. You hand over a lump of money for a game that relies on ongoing servers/updates/fixes/etc, yet form no ongoing relationship with the developers. They have given you initial content, and owe you nothing beyond this ~ so just like F2P they are under no obligation to deliver anything to you in the way of maintenance/updates. At least in F2P you didnt spend any money...B2P they front load money and can easily just firetruck off. If you are lucky, they will throw you a bone a few weeks before they want to sell you an update, they disapear again.
Sub is the better system, hands down. As many people have already said, its all in the delivery.
You would be probably asking a console gamer or someone who's gone F2P mmo their entire meager existences. When they've upped to the quality of a real MMO...I'd doubt they'd have that view or change it very quickly.
The "little guy" has no firm foundation here...this is a MMO haven.
MMO's must go FTP to survive 'cause ppl aren't prepared to pay a sub?
Games should go FTP since ppl aren't prepared to pay for them ...
See what i did there?
People are always prepared to pay for quality, and i have no problems paying for a good service. As for a FTP model Hellgate has actually hit a rather decent balance. As soon as people mention FTP i start thinking of 2000+ Zynga-games ... *shivers*
No, i much rather pay a sub than having to buy health potions for real cash or a xp/stat-boost to be able to play at a realistic level.
/Y