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Originally posted by Rimmersman Originally posted by Phry Originally posted by Rimmersman Originally posted by Yamota Wasn't Smedley the guy who was responsible for transforming SWG to ThemePark from Sandbox which lead to it's eventual failure? If so I would not believe one word from this guy in regards to sandbox.
Yes he did but it's old news and water under the bridge, did you play SWG or are you just going on what you have heard.
The order was given and Smed acted.
And as much as SWG was an open MMO it was not a complete sandbox MMO.
SWG pre cu was about as sandboxy as its possible to be. the things they broke by trying to make it a themepark are, too numerous to list, but introducing levels, introducing 'professions' are just a couple of the main ones. and it may be in the past, but its far from 'under the bridge' maybe in another 10 years, people will have forgotten how epic fail SOE were over SWG.. but don't hold your breath..
Sorry mate but it was not as sandboxy as can be, very open ended but not a full sanbox MMO.
Then you probably don't consider Eve online to be a full sandbox either, because i can't think of any particular category where SWG didnt class as a sandbox game.
Originally posted by Zeppelin4 Breaking News just in Blizzard announces their new MMO will be even a bigger Sandbox than EQNext. Let the battle begin :P
SoE may be still reeling a bit from the last round (EQ2 and WoW opening a week apart). But I doubt it.
If Blizzard turns around and suddenly shows what Titan is...I wouldn't be terribly surprised.
But that ^ kind of cynical, I'm really not.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Istavaan Originally posted by Fearum So when this one fails, what excuse will sandbox fans blame it on?
They will say it wasn't a real sandbox like always. whatever that means.
We're full of cynical expectations here this morning, yes indeed.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Zeppelin4 Breaking News just in Blizzard announces their new MMO will be even a bigger Sandbox than EQNext. Let the battle begin :P
i see it now
SOE: we have the world largest sandbox !
Blizzard: we have the worlds most polished sandbox !
Kickstarter: Stuff I'm supporting
"New way to deliver content players have never seen before." (paraphrased)
1. All the quests are episodic and you have to buy them for 99c each like iTunes store?
2. Quests are all delivered through facebook/twitter integration?
3. EQNext will feature EQ2 Dungeon Maker type content creation system for quests and dungeons, developer content delivered in same way as player content. See #1 for business model.
My question, does Smedley know that sandboxes are NOT about content consumption but rather content creation via systems and feature sets leading to emergant/dynamic gameplay?
Originally posted by BadSpock "New way to deliver content players have never seen before." (paraphrased) Speculations? 1. All the quests are episodic and you have to buy them for 99c each like iTunes store? 2. Quests are all delivered through facebook/twitter integration? 3. EQNext will feature EQ2 Dungeon Maker type content creation system for quests and dungeons, developer content delivered in same way as player content. See #1 for business model. My question, does Smedley know that sandboxes are NOT about content consumption but rather content creation via systems and feature sets leading to emergant/dynamic gameplay?
Well hardly fair to post your speculations and then pose questions 'if Smedly knows what sandboxes are all about'.
Originally posted by Rimmersman Originally posted by Yamota Wasn't Smedley the guy who was responsible for transforming SWG to ThemePark from Sandbox which lead to it's eventual failure? If so I would not believe one word from this guy in regards to sandbox.
Complete sandbox or not it was ways, ways more sandbox than the ThemeParks we have seen in the last five years or so. So anything resembling a ThemePark would be a welcome change...
Originally posted by Nadia Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Zeppelin4 Breaking News just in Blizzard announces their new MMO will be even a bigger Sandbox than EQNext. Let the battle begin :P
when did blizzard ever do anything original..titan will be a themepark, probably world of starcraft.
God, I hope you are wrong!... but I wouldn't put it past them.
Originally posted by BadSpock My question, does Smedley know that sandboxes are NOT about content consumption but rather content creation via systems and feature sets leading to emergant/dynamic gameplay?
dont forget player studio - players designing marketplace items
I am an EQ fan, but im wary of Smed
Originally posted by Nadia Originally posted by BadSpock My question, does Smedley know that sandboxes are NOT about content consumption but rather content creation via systems and feature sets leading to emergant/dynamic gameplay?
dont forget player studio - players designing marketplace items
Well, that would be a pretty interesting idea to completely and fully combine a Dungeon/Quest creation studio with the player studio for objects/armor/set pieces/characters etc.
Would definitely be a sandbox in terms of "player created content" but you wouldn't really be able to do it open-world without very, very, very strict controls and quality checks if you don't want it to become Second Life: Everquest Edition.
Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by Apraxis The themepark vs. sandbox discussion is as old as the UO vs. EQ discussion. And it was one arguement to seperate both design patterns.. but basicly it may even go back to MUDs.. but i dont know 100%. EQ is the traditional Themepark, and back then as WoW was released, WoW was labeled an EQ clone for a reason. And in contrary to a sandbox you cant build up/destroy stuff in the persistent environment. In a themepark everything remains the same.. the spot of goblins will be a spot of goblins now and a year later.
WoW was nothing like EQ, did you play EQ?
WoW is completely based on quest progression, EQ is completely based on grind progression.
Everquest had almost no quests, WoW is chock full of quests.
WOW allows you to solo on every class, EQ allows you to only solo on very few select classes.
WoW is completely on rails, EQ opens up a whole world with many choices the minute you leave your starting city.
WoW guides you to every zone, EQ didn't tell you where to go whatsoever.
WoW doesn't used static camps like EQ does.
People who claim EQ is like WoW never played EQ1, you can stop pretending.
Did WoW take some elements of EQ? Sure, is WoW comparable to EQ in terms of gameplay? No, not at all.
Vanguard is the only game I know that cames somewhat close to EQ but it's still miles from what EQ is like, WoW is a different game altogether.
And since when do you need to be able to destroy things for a game to qualify as a sandbox.
I don't care if you want to say EQ is a sandbox or a themepark, but stop comparing EQ and WoW like they are similar games, they were and are completely different games, anyone who says they are clones has never played EQ.
Ok.. and from a today standpoint is correct.
But lets look from another standpoint. Take UO and EQ as two games from the first generation. And lets put in WoW as third game.
So, if you compare those three games. What do you think was WoW influenced most?
And just to name a few similarities:
- Level progression. You start with level 1 and go further to level 2, as will go the mobs to higher levels.
True for EQ. Not true for UO.
- Gear progression. With better levels, better gear will be available. Level tiered gear progression and beyond.
And i could go on with this list. Point is, the development team from WoW took a lot from EQ in the very basics of game design, how a mmorpg have to be. Of course, they expanded on it, casualized on it and so on. But they were going the EQ route of world and game design. Not the UO route of things. And in the very basics, this is the difference between Themepark and Sandbox game design.
Ok, from a standpoint from now. Almost every game(or lets just say every game) is build up like EQ in the basics. You got different levels, you got different gears for different levels, you got different zones for different levels. All that basic stuff.
You can even take that down to the old DikuMUD System, form which EQ was based of. And here a link for your to read more about it, if you are interested.
And no offense intended. And of course if you look at it from now.. EQ and WoW is extremely different, with the added Quests and Quest Hubs and instances and all that shit. But the basics remain the same.
Edit/PS: And yes.. i played EQ. Or better, i tested it. Because tried it twice(EQ Vanilla, Release and a few month later), and both time never played very long, i couldnt stand it, and returned to UO. DAoC was the first themepark, which catched me a little bit longer. And even in DAoC i stopped playing with lvl18, and started 6month later again to hold out for 2 years, because the good RvR system. Lvl1-lvl50 from DAoC were seriously EQish at least in my mind.
That will happen if they take a game based on ThemePark, throw in some sandbox concepts, and then call it a sandbox. An MMORPG has to be fundamentally be designed as a sandbox to be a sandbox. You can turn a sandbox into a themepark, just add some quest hubs and remove all of any sandbox elements such as being able to create houses etc. But to turn a themepark into sandbox is not possible short of redesigning the world.
Originally posted by Istavaan when did blizzard ever do anything original..titan will be a themepark, probably world of starcraft.
I guess that would depend on how many ex-SWG developers Blizzard 'won' in the hiring pool lottery, wouldn't it?
:shrug: Smed didn't let them all go, surely. Else we'd not be announcing a sudden sandy shift.
"We have completely blown up the design of EverQuest Next." "It will be the largest sandbox-style MMO ever designed. The same exciting content delivered in a new way."
Too much marketing spiel. *waves rolex*
Originally posted by MumboJumbo Too much marketing spiel. *waves rolex*
We're about to see if a AAA developer can 'do a sandbox right'. AAA Sandbox, the fabled land of myth.
The results may (or may not) be: Careful what you wish for.
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Originally posted by Rimmersman Originally posted by bunnyhopper Sounds too good to be true and given it's SOE we are talking about here, it probably is too good to be true.
They will put all their might behind EQNext, i for one am seriously excited, perhaps this time i really will be returning home unlike EQ2.
Smeds post must be taken with a grain of salt (make that a salt quarry), but I too am very hopfull that someone in the industry F I N A L L Y gets it. As for EQ1 being a themepark, this may be partly true today; but at launch it was not; lots of quests did exist but they were hard to find, understand, complete, and the rewards were paltry.
keeping fingers crossed that $oe finally gets it.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by JeroKane Originally posted by Ripostethis Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by Ripostethis Not enough funding to make it a big theme park mmo like Everquest 2 was. Will be something like GW2 , sounds like it will suck and be boring if you are into PVE, but will be based on pvp.
Haha what? How did you reach this conclusion?
Not enough funding? SoE is one of the most successful MMO companies out there. They had the funds to develop Planetside 2's engine from scratch (and it is an AMAZING engine). And how will it be like sandbox? GW2 is the opposite of a sanbox.
And why does sandbox mean PvP? SWG was PvE oriented, as was Asheron's Call.
I know the guy who is an accountant for SOE. They had their budget cut by $10 million for EQ2 next. Original budget was somewhere around $25 million, cut down to <$15 million and had to lay off a bunch of developers.
And GW2 is a Sandbox mmo, there is only one major quest line, everything else is from live events, and you roaming the world to find more. They mentioned it will be more based on PVP, and less on PVE. It's going to be a game focusing more so on open world pvp, and less focused on quest lines like the previous 2 Everquests were.
WoW and Everquest 2 are theme park mmos. This is supposed to be a "reimaging" of the Everquest franchise, and they are saying all this fancy talk because the budget isn't there for Everquest like it was before.
And so is GW2 a themepark. Come on now. Just because they abandoned the questsystem and replaced it with someone even more boring and repetitive, doesn't make it a themepark.
GW2 is a strict class / level based progression game! That alone goes against the very definition of sandbox!
GW2 is all things to everyone because the fanboys say so.
I thought everyone knew that.
Smedley knows better than anyone what SWG was and what happened to it, and what the market is saturated with. This is a smart move, and it is going to pay off. Others will be heading the same way.
Honestly I am ecstatic that the Sandbox age is finally upon us. My only complaint is that they did not see this pattern sooner and devote to this design since day 1. At least they are getting it right. I can't wait.