Yes, I did. There wasn't an illusion,either. You HAD a choice in the old system. It was up to you to pick what you wanted, even if some were miniscule in their effect. The old system was still the act of choosing what you wanted your character to be on a far more frequent basis. That is gone in the new system, and it makes for a far lesser game in my book. As stated before, I like the intent of the new system. It's the execution that's lacking.
As for the "personal bias" comment though? You do know that a review includes personal bias at its very core. It's up to the reviewer to determine whether a game's content a.) functions b.) is entertaining and c.) does both well.
Even if I loved everything else about Mists of Pandaria, were I writing the final review the simple fact that I dislike the changes to talents would influence the final score. Because I deem the new system less than desirable. It would be a strike against the game, because I believe it's a step backwards (admittedly while trying to take a step forward). That's how these things work. Just as you would rate new talents high on the list of pros, I would place it on the list of cons.
A review is merely a detailed critique from one person's point of view on the subject matter. The same subject matter is going to receive a range of different critiques, and there will be a lot of agreement and disagreement along that line.
And that's okay. Different strokes, different folks, and all that.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
I enjoyed the old system, especially pre cata. I liked how I could do like 10 or 11 in combat then put a few in assassin. I use to raid, and could raid well with like 6 different specs. Heck, we had 6 different rogues that didn't have the same spec, and a couple of those I probably wouldn't use.
Even raiding you didn't need to min/max, as long as you contributed well. Didn't like the change to cata where I had to stay in one field until 31 points spent, but figured oh well, not too bad, little less customization but still decent. Now? lol, please. Can only be 1 of 3 now, instead of mixing and tweaking specs. Oh and I get to pick a "talent" every 15 levels, most of which I probably will rarely use and the ones that I would use, well pretty much it is the real only one to pick. Also a lot of these talents are the same for every class, further diluting the customization of your character.
The new talents would have been fine, if they added it to the previous skill points talents. This talent system is like EQ2, which alone would have sucked, but they have the AA system which brings a lot more customization. This kind of talent system is more of an addon, a hmm, cool I get something extra, not a main customization.
I love progression in my mmorpgs, customizing my character. If the game doesn't have enough of it for me, then it isn't worth playing.
Originally posted by BillMurphy As for the "personal bias" comment though? You do know that a review includes personal bias at its very core. It's up to the reviewer to determine whether a game's content a.) functions b.) is entertaining and c.) does both well. Even if I loved everything else about Mists of Pandaria, were I writing the final review the simple fact that I dislike the changes to talents would influence the final score. Because I deem the new system less than desirable. It would be a strike against the game, because I believe it's a step backwards (admittedly while trying to take a step forward). That's how these things work. Just as you would rate new talents high on the list of pros, I would place it on the list of cons. A review is merely a detailed critique from one person's point of view on the subject matter. The same subject matter is going to receive a range of different critiques, and there will be a lot of agreement and disagreement along that line.And that's okay. Different strokes, different folks, and all that.
Going to quote from my first post in this topic.
"A review is just the opinion of one person but a good reviewer tries to be as objective as possible."
You admit that you will let your personal bias influence the final score of your review. So, how can we trust your review when we already know it will be tainted?
To make a review about WoW without touching its endgame content, specifically raiding, is like making a review of Big Mac based on the soda you bought with it without giving the burger a bite. The type of players who would play WoW based on its leveling alone are so casual, they don't visit sites like these. Most of them don't even know MoP released (Blizzard has said it in the past).
WoW's meat is the raiding. There's no other MMO on the market that offers the huge raiding community, challenging heroic encounters, and variety that WoW does. Not even Rift, which is the second closest in my mind. WoW is not easy. Saying so based on leveling alone is like saying that Big Mac combo had no calories at all just because you bought diet coke. There's a reason why a huge "hardcore" community of players exist around WoW's heroic raiding progression, that doesn't exist around, say, GW2's 5 man dungeons. And this expansion is proving to be excellent in terms of that. There's a reason why WoW keeps a steady 10k+ viewers on streaming sites while games like GW2 only has about 500 or less. One word, hardcore progression raiding.
But then again, I guess that's what we've come to expect from MMORPG.com in terms of WoW, right? After all, there's so many sites exclusively about WoW where people can go, sites like these inevitably tend to focus on other MMOs who don't have such big community.
He said "his opinion". YOU are the one with the opinion that his opinion is tainted. Are you that un-able to see what he is saying? It's not that hard. You like it, he doesn't. Done.
Hey Bill thanks for speaking up, just so you know my comments were more on the content on this "in-progress" review and not on you as a person, infact I didn't even look to see who the reviewer was.
But that does not escape my opinion that your explaination of the new Talent system was not complete, you gave an impression to readers who might be on the fence about jumping into MOP that you only get new skills and abilities every 15 levels. Now I too think 15 levels is not ideal I would have liked a choice every 10, I think every 5 as you suggest would mean we go back to the +1% increases nonsense, but every 15 means you do get a meaningful choice and blizzard can build some nice flavours without repetition and filler abilities.
I would like to see an update that focuses on the new questing in MOP, especially four winds the journey to brew the best beer in Pandaria you take with Chen Stormstout and his Neice Li Li is some of the best questing in WoW and probably and MMO.
Can you realy post a positive revieuw when the game we played 8 years ago turned into a hello kitty island adventure ?
Dumbed down mmo is dumbed down, offcourse you get negative revieuws. Wait untill people get tired of the daily grinds and how MoP is just another xpac to milk the playerbase some more.
laughing realy hard at fanboys trying ot nuke down GW2 and defend WoW when its not even a shadow of what it used to be.
I am playing Panda as a secondary game at the moment. GW2, for me, was a fun walk in the theme park for a week or two, but after that I moved on. Panda is a good secondary game, because Blizz streamlined everything to the point where the game now has a simplicity to it that means you can casually dip into all the content. Yes, it is like eating a bag of popcorn, junk food that likely isn't that good for you, but as a game there is now a lot of content there, and it is very easy to PvP or raid in it. As a secondary mmo, Panda is good. As a primary mmo the streamlined junk food feel of the game will make you feel sick all to soon I think.
I for one love the talent revamp.. But I think out it should be called something else..
maybe "Specialization +"... All in all its the first expac that have felt so well thought out and comforting.. Bc felt more grindy, LK was too gloomy looking and Cata was a bit too demanding.. This expac strikes a good balance between LK and Cata...
I think the review was spot on ! I detest the new talent tree - there is less individuality than before (same with nerfing the hunter pets and there's less options for choice there). I think any Pandarian class should have started at 55 as long as you have a level 90 something (or I can pay $25 to change the race, ya, ya). This is not something wonderful, new and hard to learn - I had a monk in EQ. Once you know your spells, you're good. Pandaria should have been big enough to do levels 1-90 in or at least go back for level 20, level 30, level 40, etc so you get to go home once in a while. Will I keep playing - yes, I enjoy the game.
I suspect the reason for delaying the final review is because it won't get the brilliant score to which WoW is accustomed to getting. The delay is a way of showing respect to a well loved franchise.
I think what you said under the title "The Rough Spots" expresses the main disappointments players like me have about the direction WoW has been taking, and where it's at now.
The sales figures for MoP say that not even 1/3 of the subscriber base I last saw figures for have bought it. If that isn't a wake-up call, I don't know what is. You simply can not continue to dumb-down a game for seasoned veteran players and expect them to remain satisfied. They need more content, and that doesn't mean all they need is hard-core or Heroic level versions of raids.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
Left WoW at the beginning of cata due to the a complete lack of solo pve challenge. Have they figured out a way to make solo pve even mildly interesting?
Originally posted by XiaokiLastly, I would like to ask, how many buttons do you want? Classes already have around 30 abilities at level 90 to deal with. My Death Knight tank has 10 defensive cooldowns. Yes, thats right, 10! But for some reason this isnt enough? Will having upwards of 50 abilities be enough customization for you? 100? 200? How much customization is too much?
Fair enough sir, we disagree. I think the old trees had gotten too convoluted. But I also think this new system is too simplistic. I loved, regardless of how "pointless" some spending of points was, making a choice every level with my talents. Then it was even more seldom, and now it's few and far between.
I remember when WoW allowed players to allocate their stats back in beta, a feature that was quickly removed because it was "too easy to ruin your stats". But that same system was present in the Diablo games and it was heralded as one of its best points.
For a very long time now, Blizzard has been taking a lot of choice away from character development in favor of balance and accessibility. I'm not saying that's wrong. I mean, hell they have over 10 million subscribers. I'm just saying it's not my cup of tea.
You ask how much custmization is too much? I'm not sure, for me, there is a limit. But how little customization is too little (again for me)? This new talent system.
Edit: Oh, and I do see your point about the old trees. Again, I'm not saying they were "the bestest". But another poster in this thread put it well. You used to have something every level that made your character yours. If you wanted to raid, chances are you had to follow certain "builds". But for me, I was playing my characters my way, and the simply act of choosing how my character grew every level is gone now. It's something that I enjoyed, even if it was faulted. But now, it's just not there.
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, Xiaoki. I'm just laying out my point of view in hopes that you can understand it even if you disagree. Because, you know... disagreement is okay.
So, you liked spending the talent points every level even though you knew that most of your decisions were pointless or for talents that were useless?
"you have the illusion of choice" - George Carlin
I just hope this personal bias doesnt influence the final review. But we'll see.
Illusion of choice is a huge factor and removing any, let me repeat "ANY" sembalance of choice is a big negative.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
i played this expansion for about two weeks and have already cancelled my account again. This expansion has beautiful art style and really added a lot of flavor to the game , but with that being said this was nothing more then a money grab to milk its player base even harder and you can see with sales they are losing subs once again. All this expansion boils down to is weak 7 heroics for 463 gear and 3 raids on a raid sch. Hundreds of daily quests and majority of the players I talk to hate them and avoid the bug quests. This expansion offers absolutely nothing to make wow better at all and actually probably hurts it more then helps. The grind to 90 is a chore , same exact phasing long quest chains as lich king and cata and nothing innovative at all. I hate to trump other games here with wow but honestly for being a wow clone Rift is doing it about 1000x better then wow with storm legion and the game in general , to bad its a clone otherwise it would have a larger player base.
This is just personal opinion of course but everyone in the guild im in currently have just about stopped logging in once again and i highly douht this expansion is going to stop the bleeding of subs because blizzard just seems to not get why people are leaving or just dont care one of the two.
I live for the reviews of WoW nowdays. Every next one that comes out and expansion etc makes me glad i left the game years ago and happy to be able to look down on those who still play it. The 6 customizable talents for 80 or so levels sounds brilliant as is Blizzards style to pander to the 6-10age demographic. Not sure about all the complaining on MMORPG's review of this. I dont see alot of content at this point to really write something new about.
Comments
Yes, I did. There wasn't an illusion,either. You HAD a choice in the old system. It was up to you to pick what you wanted, even if some were miniscule in their effect. The old system was still the act of choosing what you wanted your character to be on a far more frequent basis. That is gone in the new system, and it makes for a far lesser game in my book. As stated before, I like the intent of the new system. It's the execution that's lacking.
As for the "personal bias" comment though? You do know that a review includes personal bias at its very core. It's up to the reviewer to determine whether a game's content a.) functions b.) is entertaining and c.) does both well.
Even if I loved everything else about Mists of Pandaria, were I writing the final review the simple fact that I dislike the changes to talents would influence the final score. Because I deem the new system less than desirable. It would be a strike against the game, because I believe it's a step backwards (admittedly while trying to take a step forward). That's how these things work. Just as you would rate new talents high on the list of pros, I would place it on the list of cons.
A review is merely a detailed critique from one person's point of view on the subject matter. The same subject matter is going to receive a range of different critiques, and there will be a lot of agreement and disagreement along that line.
And that's okay. Different strokes, different folks, and all that.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
My Review Manifesto
Follow me on Twitter if you dare.
I enjoyed the old system, especially pre cata. I liked how I could do like 10 or 11 in combat then put a few in assassin. I use to raid, and could raid well with like 6 different specs. Heck, we had 6 different rogues that didn't have the same spec, and a couple of those I probably wouldn't use.
Even raiding you didn't need to min/max, as long as you contributed well. Didn't like the change to cata where I had to stay in one field until 31 points spent, but figured oh well, not too bad, little less customization but still decent. Now? lol, please. Can only be 1 of 3 now, instead of mixing and tweaking specs. Oh and I get to pick a "talent" every 15 levels, most of which I probably will rarely use and the ones that I would use, well pretty much it is the real only one to pick. Also a lot of these talents are the same for every class, further diluting the customization of your character.
The new talents would have been fine, if they added it to the previous skill points talents. This talent system is like EQ2, which alone would have sucked, but they have the AA system which brings a lot more customization. This kind of talent system is more of an addon, a hmm, cool I get something extra, not a main customization.
I love progression in my mmorpgs, customizing my character. If the game doesn't have enough of it for me, then it isn't worth playing.
"A review is just the opinion of one person but a good reviewer tries to be as objective as possible."
You admit that you will let your personal bias influence the final score of your review. So, how can we trust your review when we already know it will be tainted?
Hey Bill -
You're right - Pandaren aren't serious. Say this out loud "Fighting Panda People". I don't think badass artwork can escape their nature.
Remember - this is the world of gnomes dancing to 'sex bomb' and goat-people from outer space.
That said. My Panda is badass.
To make a review about WoW without touching its endgame content, specifically raiding, is like making a review of Big Mac based on the soda you bought with it without giving the burger a bite. The type of players who would play WoW based on its leveling alone are so casual, they don't visit sites like these. Most of them don't even know MoP released (Blizzard has said it in the past).
WoW's meat is the raiding. There's no other MMO on the market that offers the huge raiding community, challenging heroic encounters, and variety that WoW does. Not even Rift, which is the second closest in my mind. WoW is not easy. Saying so based on leveling alone is like saying that Big Mac combo had no calories at all just because you bought diet coke. There's a reason why a huge "hardcore" community of players exist around WoW's heroic raiding progression, that doesn't exist around, say, GW2's 5 man dungeons. And this expansion is proving to be excellent in terms of that. There's a reason why WoW keeps a steady 10k+ viewers on streaming sites while games like GW2 only has about 500 or less. One word, hardcore progression raiding.
But then again, I guess that's what we've come to expect from MMORPG.com in terms of WoW, right? After all, there's so many sites exclusively about WoW where people can go, sites like these inevitably tend to focus on other MMOs who don't have such big community.
@Aegis
This is part 2, not a final review. Knee -jerk much? PS- What raids are released right now? LOL
@Xia
He said "his opinion". YOU are the one with the opinion that his opinion is tainted. Are you that un-able to see what he is saying? It's not that hard. You like it, he doesn't. Done.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Hey Bill thanks for speaking up, just so you know my comments were more on the content on this "in-progress" review and not on you as a person, infact I didn't even look to see who the reviewer was.
But that does not escape my opinion that your explaination of the new Talent system was not complete, you gave an impression to readers who might be on the fence about jumping into MOP that you only get new skills and abilities every 15 levels. Now I too think 15 levels is not ideal I would have liked a choice every 10, I think every 5 as you suggest would mean we go back to the +1% increases nonsense, but every 15 means you do get a meaningful choice and blizzard can build some nice flavours without repetition and filler abilities.
I would like to see an update that focuses on the new questing in MOP, especially four winds the journey to brew the best beer in Pandaria you take with Chen Stormstout and his Neice Li Li is some of the best questing in WoW and probably and MMO.
Can you realy post a positive revieuw when the game we played 8 years ago turned into a hello kitty island adventure ?
Dumbed down mmo is dumbed down, offcourse you get negative revieuws.
Wait untill people get tired of the daily grinds and how MoP is just another xpac to milk the playerbase some more.
laughing realy hard at fanboys trying ot nuke down GW2 and defend WoW when its not even a shadow of what it used to be.
maybe "Specialization +"... All in all its the first expac that have felt so well thought out and comforting.. Bc felt more grindy, LK was too gloomy looking and Cata was a bit too demanding..
This expac strikes a good balance between LK and Cata...
I think what you said under the title "The Rough Spots" expresses the main disappointments players like me have about the direction WoW has been taking, and where it's at now.
The sales figures for MoP say that not even 1/3 of the subscriber base I last saw figures for have bought it. If that isn't a wake-up call, I don't know what is. You simply can not continue to dumb-down a game for seasoned veteran players and expect them to remain satisfied. They need more content, and that doesn't mean all they need is hard-core or Heroic level versions of raids.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
Illusion of choice is a huge factor and removing any, let me repeat "ANY" sembalance of choice is a big negative.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
i played this expansion for about two weeks and have already cancelled my account again. This expansion has beautiful art style and really added a lot of flavor to the game , but with that being said this was nothing more then a money grab to milk its player base even harder and you can see with sales they are losing subs once again. All this expansion boils down to is weak 7 heroics for 463 gear and 3 raids on a raid sch. Hundreds of daily quests and majority of the players I talk to hate them and avoid the bug quests. This expansion offers absolutely nothing to make wow better at all and actually probably hurts it more then helps. The grind to 90 is a chore , same exact phasing long quest chains as lich king and cata and nothing innovative at all. I hate to trump other games here with wow but honestly for being a wow clone Rift is doing it about 1000x better then wow with storm legion and the game in general , to bad its a clone otherwise it would have a larger player base.
This is just personal opinion of course but everyone in the guild im in currently have just about stopped logging in once again and i highly douht this expansion is going to stop the bleeding of subs because blizzard just seems to not get why people are leaving or just dont care one of the two.