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The Hilarious Myth of "True Skill" in PvP.

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  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by f0dell54
    Originally posted by Bathnor
    image      "True skill" lol.

    Probably the best and most accurate post in this whole thread.

    lol

    image and a scarily accurate graphical representation no doubt image

    Unless they play Eve of course, in which case i guarantee they are all ruggedly handsome.. even the male players image

  • stayontargetstayontarget Tacoma, WAPosts: 6,068Member Uncommon
    True Skill is trying to find a game that you really like.

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Spennet
    I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

    Problem is that your equation is only accurate to a certain point, because at a certain point, you simply can't become better even if you spend all time in the world due to certain talent being required. 

    Agree. This is especially true in FPS games, since they rely the most on twitch skill and reflexes.

    Yes you can develop and improve your skill / reflexes over time, but everyone has a limit or plateau to how far they will get. Ive played with people who are playing an FPS for several hours a day every day for months on end, who still suck at the game because they lack the quick thinking and reflexes needed. Then I run into other people who pick up that same game, have been playing for a week and just kick the shit out of me regularly. Everyone has a different skill / learning curve.

    I had a guy like this in my clan on Ghost Recon 2. Ran into the guy his 3rd day playing the game. At the time I was #1 ranked in kills in the entire game as well as holding #1 rank in score in 2 out of 3 game modes, and was leading a clan full of other top 10 spot holders and we were ranked #1 on the gamebattles ladders and on our way to the semifinals of a tournament. Dude comes into the lobby we were in, playing the opposite team as me. Everywhere I went I was dropping people in my way, and here is this guy sitting back picking me off nearly every time with a single shot to the head. Ran into him a few more times over that week and he just consistently kept it up. Ended up recruiting him to the clan and he became  one of our most valuable assets in large maps allowing him to snipe. He was very sneaky / great at hiding & using terrain, and had a crazy headshot skill. Awesome thing is, this guy also went on to get a job at Redstorm and worked on Ghost Recon Future Soldier as a level designer.

    Other people have the talent to be exceptional players, but it takes them longer to develop.

    Like the story above, there was another clanmate of mine from Rainbow Six 3 (before GR2) who fit this to a T. He had been playing about a month when he ran into me for the 1st time. I normally ran uneven matches, me or me + 1 vs everyone else, with me using just a silenced 9 MM pistol and them running whatever they want. At first you could tell he was kind of frustrated cause I was just kicking the crap out of his team over and over. But we got along OK and ended up friending eachother in game. I admit, he was pretty bad at the game at that time. Over the next few weeks he kept coming into my matches, but was always on the other side. One day I asked him "Why dont you ever join my team" and he said "Because you will kill them all anyway and I will just do nothing and keep sucking. I would rather fight against you and learn how to beat you so I can get better". Which he very much did. He spent 90% of his time playing opposite me, andif nobody else was around we would spend hours just 1 v 1 against eachother and I would give him advice. After about 3 months of playing with me & my clan regularly, he finally felt he was good enough and asked if he could join us. We put him through our usual series of pass/fail tests to see if he had what it takes, and he passed with flying colors and got accepted. He changed his name, added our clan tag, etc. The next day I go online, hop into a match, and when seeing my tag people start asking "Hey arent you in the same clan as that Reservoir guy?" Im like "Yeah. Why?" and they all start talking about how he was in there a couple hours ago just stomping the shit out of everyone nonstop and how the host at the time got pissed off and kicked him from their server. After that I kept hearing his name a lot when I joined other people's matches, and most people who knew us refused to play if me and him were on the same team together. He also came to GR2 with us, and it took him a bit longer to adjust to the game, but eventually he started moving up in the ranks and caught up with the rest of us.

    It always took him longer, but because of the similar limits all of my clanmates shared, when he hit that plateau he was just about as good as any of us. It didnt matter which of us was better faster, because we all hit the top of our game at some point, and some of us played a lot more than others. Time spent playing became irrelevant once we were all at that point.

    TLDR version: Some people develop their skills very quickly, almost instantly. Others take a lot of time and work to develop their skills. But regardless of which type you are, everyone has a point where they have reached the "peak" of their abilities. You might get slightly better with more time afte rthat point, but it is very tiny increases. That peak is different for everyone, and some players will wind up being better than others in the end. But that peak exists for all of us.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    People ask me why I don't want to join a PVP server. This is exactly  why lol. Bickering who is the best and the leetest and coolest and haz da most skillz. I don't see this in PVE.

    If chest-thumping and swagger get on your nerves, you just won't be able to stomach any pvp forum for very long.  :shrug:

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,757Member Uncommon

    "There are desperate housewives who play WoW, who are so much better than you (and me)"

    If you know any, be a pal and do the introductions. :)

     

    Of course games require skill, this is a thread about what skill is and it does not mean the same thing to all people. I regard a FPS shooter as taking more skill than a typical MMO. But that "skill" may be just finding a good hiding place to snip from or upgrading your weapon so you can shine a flashlight in someone’s eyes and bind them in daylight (B3). Alternatively it may be good marksmanship; both types of "skill" are to be found.

    MMO’s tend to rely on memory more than a FPS, you need to know how to do things more than practice them to be perfect. Not so much as being able to do something in game better, but knowing the best way to attack, to even shop!

    But in life you will find some people are better at some things, that’s the way it goes. Being great in games wins kudos from your mates. Being great in business, science or art will take you much further. So I suggest you get your “skills” spruced up in those rather than just games.

     

  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member
    ^Actually this is a thread for the OP to vent a bout my defintions of true skill in another thread (or most likely). And again, I'll state, skill required in video games is a joke compared to any real sport, my own passion is in motorsports on 2 wheels. In video games you don't have to worry about dying lol
  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    "There are desperate housewives who play WoW, who are so much better than you (and me)"

    If you know any, be a pal and do the introductions. :)

     

    Of course games require skill, this is a thread about what skill is and it does not mean the same thing to all people. I regard a FPS shooter as taking more skill than a typical MMO. But that "skill" may be just finding a good hiding place to snip from or upgrading your weapon so you can shine a flashlight in someone’s eyes and bind them in daylight (B3). Alternatively it may be good marksmanship; both types of "skill" are to be found.

    MMO’s tend to rely on memory more than a FPS, you need to know how to do things more than practice them to be perfect. Not so much as being able to do something in game better, but knowing the best way to attack, to even shop!

    But in life you will find some people are better at some things, that’s the way it goes. Being great in games wins kudos from your mates. Being great in business, science or art will take you much further. So I suggest you get your “skills” spruced up in those rather than just games.

     

    I agree. But that also brings us back around to something which, I know, is  a bit of a different topic, and pretty sure has been debated on these forums in the past:

    How do your "skills" in a game transfer into the real world. Especially when it comes to children playing games, and developing certain skills that may help them in the future. And what types of games can help develop which skills?

    Some are pretty obvious, like:

    RPGs (at least ones with lots of min/maxing and tweaking builds, major economics, lots of calculations, etc such as DDO or EVE) helping improve math skills.

    RPGs with lots of story in the form of text improving reading skills.

    FPS and to an extent RTS games improving quick thinking / reflex, and coordination / precision.

    What about some other things though?

    Does playing MMOs and interacting with people the way we do, especially in games with lots of political stuff in them help or hinder social skills in children? Do these things help or hinder not just normal social skills, but social skills as it applies to the business world and managing / leading a company or department?

    What about overall application of logic & problem solving skills?

     

     

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by kaiser3282

    People are e-peen measuring asshats regardless of type of game. 

    You had me at "Asshats"...

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kaiser3282
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Spennet
    I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

    Problem is that your equation is only accurate to a certain point, because at a certain point, you simply can't become better even if you spend all time in the world due to certain talent being required. 

    Yes you can develop and improve your skill / reflexes over time, but everyone has a limit or plateau to how far they will get. Ive played with people who are playing an FPS for several hours a day every day for months on end, who still suck at the game because they lack the quick thinking and reflexes needed. Then I run into other people who pick up that same game, have been playing for a week and just kick the shit out of me regularly. Everyone has a different skill / learning curve.

    I

    Just one point here.  Actually what most studies have found is that you cannot train reflexes.  The biggest delay in reflexes is the cognitive component, the ability for the person to realize what is happening, understand it and make a decision.  The rest is simply speed of neural abilities.

    When people appear to get get at reflexes all that is happeneing is they are in a situation that is familliar to them, aka they allready have a schema developed for this situation or a situation like this.  Here they are bypassing a huge portion of the cognitive component, they are predicting what is going to happen and getting various responses ready. 

    When placed in a new situation that they do not have a schema for the response times are normally the same.   

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member
    ^You sure? Stunting is reflex based. Please don't tell me you don't know what stunting or gymkhana means
  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    If everyone is given the same gear/stats/consumeables, then I could see skill being a factor in an MMO.  Classes may not always be evenly matched 1v1, but knowing your weaknesses is just as important as knowing your strengths.

    The problems I see are when people sit there claiming to be more skilled than someone else, without recognizing the fact that they have much better gear.  If you bring that little point up, then they say something like "I put in the time for this gear" which has nothing to do with skill.

    You make me like charity

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lienhart
    ^You sure? Stunting is reflex based. Please don't tell me you don't know what stunting or gymkhana means

     Yep definately.  Both those activites are completely reflex the first time, however over time you develop pattern recognition and can predict what to do.  The course may change but the object of jumping, or 180/360 turns on their own or around objects are not significnatly different from each other as to require a completely new new pattern of thought process or muscular recruitment.  So they saw the what was required, they allready have a plan in place for how to do it, they now execute the plan. 

    The persons reflexes did not get better, their ability to process and respond to new information did not change.  What did change was their ability to predict based on pattern recognition.

    A completely new act, with objects/activities that are not similar to old ones that requires a new thought pattern and pattern of motor recruitment would be reflex based. 

    For those who don't know:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkhana_(motorsport)

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stunting

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22

    If everyone is given the same gear/stats/consumeables, then I could see skill being a factor in an MMO.  Classes may not always be evenly matched 1v1, but knowing your weaknesses is just as important as knowing your strengths.

    The problems I see are when people sit there claiming to be more skilled than someone else, without recognizing the fact that they have much better gear.  If you bring that little point up, then they say something like "I put in the time for this gear" which has nothing to do with skill.

    I agree that thepart in red is always a factor. Poor balancing in classes can be a major factor. But as you mentioned, knowledge of both yours and your enemy's strengths and weaknesses would be where "skill" in the form of wisdom and experience comes in.

    You run into this in games like WAR a lot. Several years later, and they still havent managed to balance classes even remotely in some cases. But I typically like to play an underdog, so I also tend to roll the current "gimp" class ofen just to prove the point that even an inferior class can still win if you learn how to use it properly.

     I used to also do stuff like go into T4 RvR zones at level 32 / RR 60ish just to fight level 40s with much higher RR than me. Just found a lot of the fights vs people in the same tier as me very dull since it usually took several enemies + me making a lot of mistakes for me to actually lose fights.  Kiting RR90+ tanks to death with my level 34 SW was lots of fun. Took forever, but it was entertaining watching them run in circles trying to catch me because their too stupid to just cut me off instead of following me around in a loop. Same fun with a 35 WH ganking 90+ healers because theyre too slow / stupid to use their detaunt on me instead of trying to heal immediately.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by defector1968
    true skill in MMOs is to find which class is the OP and play with it all the time

    you have things backwards..

    did you ever play Street Fighters?

    The skilled people played DAN... the Underpowered character to test their skill.

    Thats what skilled people play. they play the underpowered and gimp classes. the better you do as that class, the more awesome it feel.

     

    Ever play a Ret Paladin in TBC WoW? What about a Druid in Rift? so much fun when you beat others.

    image

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by kaiser3282

    I agree with a lot of what the OP and a few others are saying.

    For those who seem to be getting confused by a whole lot of text, here is a simplified version.

    There is not 1 type of game that is the only type that requires "true skill" to play. Playing and being good at 1 type does not magically mean you have "true skill" and people who play another type of game arent as skilled as you.

    They require being good at completely different skillsets, but all of them require at least bits of what it takes to excel in other types.

    For example:

    MMOs typically revolve more around things like min/maxing builds (and understanding the mathematics behind everyting), understanding, memorizing,  and executing the best sequence of skills for each situation. Many games also require a lot of memorizing / being aware of your surroundings and knowing how to use the terrain to your advantage (like to break LoS when getting focused by several people and fool them into coming around at you 1 at a time). MMORPGS focus less in "twitch" skill or fast reflexes, however they do play small part. The guys who are slower to react, move around when needed, pop off quick heals when they are most crucial, etc will typically die a lot. They also require you knwoing your enemy's capabilities and being able to predict and counter what they might use against you.

    FPS games focus a lot more on twitch skills, reflexes, accuracy, etc. But they do also require some of what MMORPGs require. Memorizing maps, utilizing terrain for hiding / ambushin, setting up strategic choke points, etc. Though they may not require actual min/maxing of stats, you do still need to be very aware of things like which types of weapons are best suited for certain types of maps & situations, the accuracy, firing speed, etc. You'll see a lot of people who dont understand these things running around using every gun like a noob cannon, just firing off entire clips of ammo and barely managing to kill 1 person, or trying to use fast firing automatic weapons set to full auto trying to pick off people at long range. Then you'll see those guys dong things like taking a silenced pistol charging in and murdering the guy trying to unload a clip on him and not getting hit in the process, or a "weak" rifle with low firepower just sitting back in the distance popping off 1 round at a time taking someone down with a headshot 3/4 or more of the time. These are the guys who understand their weapon, and the enemy's weapons very well. They know how to maximize their killing power while conserving ammo, avoid getting hit by the enemies while in a hail of gunfire, and are able to easily pick up on habits and predict where the enemy will go and what they will do so they can pick off moving targets with a single shot.

    Not going to go into the whole RTS thing, enough ranting already. But point is, all types of games require similar types of skills throughout them, but obviously excelling in one skillset gives you more of an advantage in a particular type. It doesnt mean you're "more skilled" than anyone in any other type of game, just that you have more skill in the particular area being emphasized in that game.

    Some of us are fortunate enough to be quite well balanced and capable of performing all skillsets quite well. Might not be the best in an individual aspect but good enough in all of them that the combination makes you better overall. Those are the guys you will see who just kick the shit out of their competition on a daily basis wether it be fps, rts, or MMO. The guys who just hop into a new game and master it very quickly. Not the guys who are all like 'Im so much more skilled than you." then you say "OK come fight me in my game" and all of a sudden theyre like "But thats not my game that Im awesome at. Its unfair". The really skilled people will kick your ass regardless of game once they get the basics down.

    Quoted for Truth

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member

    Skill comes in different shapes and forms. Someone can be skilled in SC2 but stink in Counterstrike.  Saying that one type is more valid than another is to say that Eddie VanHalen isn't skilled because he can't play the trombone. (Actually, he probably can but you get the idea).

     

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • SirFubarSirFubar SeoulPosts: 397Member

    There's no "True Skill" IMHO. What kaiser3282 said is entirely true. You need differents skillsets in every game type. Some skills will transfert from one game to another but usually not with the same emphasis. But to say that "There is no difference in "player skill" in a game like Counterstrike or Starcraft than any other video game." is just plain wrong IMO. You know what skill ceiling is?? Games like Counter-Strike and Starcraft have such a high skill ceiling that the "player skill" will make the difference between a good and a decent player. Also playing  at a high level in a game that have a high skill ceiling with a large number of good players will improve the "player skill" A LOT more than playing a game with low skill ceiling with a small amount of good players. As someone who played a lot of CS 1.6 in the past, I can tell you there's a big difference in "player skill" in CS compared to Call of Duty. So its completely true to say that someone who played high skill ceiling games at a high level will be better than someone who doesn't. Its also true to say that someone who played high skill ceiling games at a high level will play better and develop his "player skill" faster than someone who don't play a high skill ceiling game. I've yet to see the day that someone who's good at call of duty will be able to beat me in CS or even in QuakeLive, because the skill ceiling in CoD isn't the same as CS or Quake.

     

    edit : Its like saying you're better than me in CS just because you're one of the top player of a random shooter that nearly no one plays. I really really doubt it could happen, but the other way around is plausible. Someone who played a high skill ceiling shooter will usually have no problem at all to master a low skill ceiling game in no time, but someone who is not used to play high skill ceiling shooter will have a really hard time to master it.

  • ExpiredLifeExpiredLife Montgomery, TXPosts: 20Member
    "True skill" isn't just excelling at one game - that's called practice - it's being able to go and play multiple games and be good at them.
    I consider myself to be in a top tier of gamers, no epeen intended, but definitely not on esports level, I don't have the time to dedicate to that. "Skill" to me is more than 'zomg 360 no scope headshot' and more along the lines of theory crafting, being able to take things that weren't meant for that purpose and utilize them effectively, etc. Its also knowing your limits and knowing when to turn tail and run, I see too many people in shooters online go kamikaze for a single kill and brag "see that, it was me against the entire other team and I still killed one" when they could have been more effective by falling back and waiting for them to separate.
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

    I dunno, "true skill" sounds like a buzzword to differ the game you do best against other games.

    Skill exist of course and in MMO it is skill, gear and level that usually matter but "true" just seems to be bullocks.

    There are different types of skill indeed, some people have natural abilities that makes them good from the start while others have to train a lot to be good (Kasparov have both).

    Indeed, the old "true x" argument really is rather ridiculous.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member

    In the context of PvP Eve Online (presuming one has sufficient skill points to live in null sec):

     

    Time you are willing to 'invest'  >  'true skill'  >  skill points

     

    The biggest problem with the best games is that they can waste a huge amount of your time - particularly if you want to be any good at them.

  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

    I dunno, "true skill" sounds like a buzzword to differ the game you do best against other games.

    Skill exist of course and in MMO it is skill, gear and level that usually matter but "true" just seems to be bullocks.

    There are different types of skill indeed, some people have natural abilities that makes them good from the start while others have to train a lot to be good (Kasparov have both).

    Indeed, the old "true x" argument really is rather ridiculous.

    So you're saying that Counter-Strike and StarCraft do not take more skill to play well than MMO PvP? And that both of those aren't outclassed completely by any real life sport, or in my case, stunting?

    Sounds pretty ridiculous lol

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Lienhart
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Robokapp
     

    Indeed, the old "true x" argument really is rather ridiculous.

    So you're saying that Counter-Strike and StarCraft do not take more skill to play well than MMO PvP? And that both of those aren't outclassed completely by any real life sport, or in my case, stunting?

    Sounds pretty ridiculous lol

    You do realise there is a difference between "true" which is what I pointed out as being ridiculous and "more"  which is what you are responding with right?

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • drakaenadrakaena Posts: 488Member Uncommon
    Anything in life that involves large numbers of people competiting on an even playing field, to rise to the top and standout amongst peers, requires skill.

    WTF is true skill? How is that defined? Twitch, memory, strategy, etc.

    Different games require a different skill set.
  • goblagobla somewherePosts: 1,411Member
    Originally posted by Mors.Magne

    In the context of PvP Eve Online (presuming one has sufficient skill points to live in null sec):

     

    Organisation & Friends >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Time you are willing to 'invest'  >  'true skill'  >  skill points

     

    The biggest problem with the best games is that they can waste a huge amount of your time - particularly if you want to be any good at them.

    Fixed that for you.

    Being able to call on allies and fleet members in an organised manner is what wins battles in EvE.

    If you play only an hour a day, or even less, but during that hour fill the role of a competent FC you will be able to attract enough friends to fight, scout and give assistance for you to stand a very good chance at winning against any fleet you wish to engage and avoiding any fleet you do not wish to engage.

    Even filling another role within your alliance of corporation that's needed, regardless of actual time investment, will likely get you enough respect from your fellow pilots for them to assist you in your battles and stand a much better chance at winning.

    We are the bunny.
    Resistance is futile.
    ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
    ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
    (")("),,(")("),(")(")

  • XzitoXzito UtrechtPosts: 43Member

    reaction time is what needed in a fps followed by eye hand cordination to move your mouse , the one whose better at those 2. should come out ahead.

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