Originally posted by fenistil Lotro WAS until f2p.
Why? What did fundamentally change since Freemium?
Epic quests, world design and book authenticity hasn't really suffered. They introduced more grind. But they already had this for 2 years into Moria... It was even worse back then with no small-scale possibility to gain end-game gear.
And they did it, because people DEMANDED it. People were complaining left and right during SoA and Helegrod raids that there was not enough endgame content to burn through. So they introduced guilds, rep-grind and gated content. Again, yeeears before Freemium.
So for me, it hasn't changed a bit. I sitll pay my 15 bucks a month and get everything... even more, mothly points bought me Riders of Rohan right off the bat.
M
Yeah design changed as well, but you're right it was changins since Moria, but they just enormously pushed it with f2p.
Also I could not stand cash shop ruining my immersion. Not to mention things like dools with shop clothes.
It was not an money issue I had ~7000 TP when I left, most of which I got from bonus for long-term players when going f2p.
Anyway that's not a topic for Lotro. This game convinced me I will never even look at freemium / f2p mmorpg again.
Eh, nothing of true value was lost. LotRO was a shoddy WoW clone at its best. So many things wrong with that game. So little reason to play it.
WAR and SWTOR were massive failures trying to copycat one of the best MMO's ever created.
Fixed this for you.
You not liking a MMORPG doesn't make it bad. WoW is the most successful MMO of all times for now, and there are many good reasons why so many players enjoy(ed) that game. And commercially, it's definitely still the best.
A game which maintained millions of subscribers for 8 years is definitely one of the best games ever, and that would be true even if I don't like the game.
Sadly, the above mentionned clones completely failed where WoW succeeded.
So what? If WOW never had been released the MMO market would still consist of quality games. I take DAOC quality with 200k players over WOW (aka hello kitty online) with 10-15 million players. WOW made cartoon graphics and lackluster combat the norm and standard of MMO's, companys saw the big $$$ signs and started trying to mimic it.
GW2 has alot of the old school gamers/creators of DAOC in their team, I will be playing this game for a long long time. At last a game that requires situational awareness and REAL skill to succeed in pvp. It's like DAOC with a great combat mechanic. Loving it.
Don't bother responding to him, WoW fanboys can't seem to ever say why their game is good they just say "dur it sold a lot!" and ignore the fact that the sales were largely due to it being the first MMO with a year long marketing campaign aimed at non MMO gamers by a big name company.
I bought Guild Wars 2 because I thought I'd enjoy running around and seeing the sights, but I don't actually play it. I tried to. I like goals. I like increased power from gear and time played so that there is only a slight illusion of skill in end game pvp. I don't mind zerg versus zerg sometimes as long as it isn't all of the time. I like tab target high fantasy mmorpg's and hope for more of them. I hated Wow because I didn't like the graphics.
I still play WAR: Age of Reckoning, and as an old die hard fan of Titan Quest (Beyond a 1000 hours making hardcore characters) I will say that WAR is good enough right now to make me feel like buying Torchlight 2 would be silly. That is saying something. I love loot grinders. I played at least 40 hours or more of the first Torchlight game. I don't really like the theme or graphics of the Diablo games.
My advice to developers is to think inside the box and make another one of what people like and put some money into it. It isn't worn out yet. Loot grinder-ish. It would be cool if everyone wasn't the same in the end though, gear wise and available skill wise.
LOTRO comes to my mind (before Turbine ruined the lore with flashy classes and turned it into the most awful pay 2 win model of the industry, of course), a good game, but not on my top list.
Yet it is still one of the best the F2P models in the industry.
If you're really into "pay to win", if that's your thing, sure... keep in mind that in LOTRO, the best gear with the best stats can only be obtained using the cash shop. Want the best legendary weapon? You NEED the cash shop. Also, want to compete in monster play? You will NEED the cash shop for your monster.
So please define "best", because from the player's point of view, it's definitely one of the worse.
I do not Pvmp, so I don't know what you are talking about. I haven't bought very many items at all and I don't struggle to kill anything that I want to kill, so all is good for me.
LOTRO comes to my mind (before Turbine ruined the lore with flashy classes and turned it into the most awful pay 2 win model of the industry, of course), a good game, but not on my top list.
Yet it is still one of the best the F2P models in the industry.
If you're really into "pay to win", if that's your thing, sure... keep in mind that in LOTRO, the best gear with the best stats can only be obtained using the cash shop. Want the best legendary weapon? You NEED the cash shop. Also, want to compete in monster play? You will NEED the cash shop for your monster.
So please define "best", because from the player's point of view, it's definitely one of the worse.
I do not Pvmp, so I don't know what you are talking about. I haven't bought very many items at all and I don't struggle to kill anything that I want to kill, so all is good for me.
I am no Turbine Fan (no pointing to puns) but I call BS on that "pay to win" comment in PvE lotro land.
Unless you mean that free players need to buy instances from the cash shop you are really confused on what is Pay-To-Win gear. You just need to run raids/instances to get the "best" gear and with a willing party / good group even someone with chump gear can raid for the tokens or drops to get the "best" gear in the game. Since there no longer is radiance based gating mechanics for instances.
And as far PvMP goes, it must be pay-to-win if only you play it that way. Or are you "playing it wrong"? This is coming from a 80% fulltime creepside player who has played on servers with both variants of 100% freep domination as well as a strong creep domination. And I have yet to buy a SINGLE pay-to-win skill OR cash shop brand / potion for my creep. Since I dont play PvMP to pamper my ego I dont feel the need to splurge on the cash shop simply because I can hit the P2W button if I wished to.
And I (kinda) agree with the previous poster (not the original poster spouting rancid BS) that LotRO has the best "freemium" model. Everything but freep moorplay can be bought by a f2p player who hasnt spent a single dime just by playing the game (over and over) to collect Turbine Points earned in the game. Few other games give the option to earn cash shop currency in such a convenient way.
Proud Member of the A.F-D-A. [Anti Fanboy-Defense-Army]Association for a Better Tomorrow or [A.F-D-A.]AfaBT, in short.
I wasn't even sure if this thread was serious, but it's serious..
Same for me. I laughed pretty hard over the title then ... lost a little hope for humanity when finding out the thread was serious.
When I made this pole for TSW a lot of these same people said 25% was terrible, and told me I was "trying to hard" when I said 1 out of 4 people think it's the best, and that's pretty damn good.
I will say I am suprised that GW2 did not get more than 25% when during BWE's it seemed like atleast 75% of the people on this forum thought it was already the best. Maybe 25% just talked a lot, either that or something happened post launch.
I wasn't even sure if this thread was serious, but it's serious..
Same for me. I laughed pretty hard over the title then ... lost a little hope for humanity when finding out the thread was serious.
When I made this pole for TSW a lot of these same people said 25% was terrible, and told me I was "trying to hard" when I said 1 out of 4 people think it's the best, and that's pretty damn good.
I will say I am suprised that GW2 did not get more than 25% when during BWE's it seemed like atleast 75% of the people on this forum thought it was already the best. Maybe 25% just talked a lot, either that or something happened post launch.
Your TSW thread was on TSW's own forum, not to mention is didn't get 25% IIRC and it was made before GW2 / MOP came out. And yes, you are trying too hard, because this whole TSW vs. GW2 crusade is stupid and pointless.
Also, as dozens of people pointed out already, "excellent" doesn't mean "the best".
LOTRO comes to my mind (before Turbine ruined the lore with flashy classes and turned it into the most awful pay 2 win model of the industry, of course), a good game, but not on my top list.
Yet it is still one of the best the F2P models in the industry.
If you're really into "pay to win", if that's your thing, sure... keep in mind that in LOTRO, the best gear with the best stats can only be obtained using the cash shop. Want the best legendary weapon? You NEED the cash shop. Also, want to compete in monster play? You will NEED the cash shop for your monster.
So please define "best", because from the player's point of view, it's definitely one of the worse.
I do not Pvmp, so I don't know what you are talking about. I haven't bought very many items at all and I don't struggle to kill anything that I want to kill, so all is good for me.
I am no Turbine Fan (no pointing to puns) but I call BS on that "pay to win" comment in PvE lotro land.
Unless you mean that free players need to buy instances from the cash shop you are really confused on what is Pay-To-Win gear. You just need to run raids/instances to get the "best" gear and with a willing party / good group even someone with chump gear can raid for the tokens or drops to get the "best" gear in the game. Since there no longer is radiance based gating mechanics for instances.
And as far PvMP goes, it must be pay-to-win if only you play it that way. Or are you "playing it wrong"? This is coming from a 80% fulltime creepside player who has played on servers with both variants of 100% freep domination as well as a strong creep domination. And I have yet to buy a SINGLE pay-to-win skill OR cash shop brand / potion for my creep. Since I dont play PvMP to pamper my ego I dont feel the need to splurge on the cash shop simply because I can hit the P2W button if I wished to.
And I (kinda) agree with the previous poster (not the original poster spouting rancid BS) that LotRO has the best "freemium" model. Everything but freep moorplay can be bought by a f2p player who hasnt spent a single dime just by playing the game (over and over) to collect Turbine Points earned in the game. Few other games give the option to earn cash shop currency in such a convenient way.
When I check what's on sale at the Turbine store I see:
Healing potions (with NO cooldown)
Mana potions (again with NO cooldown)
Damage boosts.
Any kind of resistance boosts.
Now please tell me how those items are not pay to win.
Originally posted by fanglo SInce I utterly hated GW2 this is easy, every MMO is better. Even the ones that died like tabula rasa.
I REALLY liked Tabula Rasa, it was one of the most decent sci-fi MMO's but with Richard Garriot in space and out of touch with the devs on the ground, NCSoft decided to cut it short with him and he filed a lawsuit on that when he returned home. It would've lasted longer if NCSoft didn't do that.
Originally posted by azmundai I played Rift, and War much longer than I played GW2. I even played SWTOR longer than I played GW2 .. though that had mostly to do with the fact that a LOT of my friends are raving sw lunatics .. but I love em anyway. Even still Swtor was better in some ways because it had at least some community goals. GW2 is just too solo .. which is the same thing I felt about SWTOR. GW2 is worse in that respect imo. At least SWTOR had group content to do. It was crappy content .. but at least it was there. GW2 has a few dungeons and a ton of faceroll zergs .. not very fun.I actually like the idea that everyone gets credit for everything .. but it also completely removes the need to actually socialize at all.I know Rift has been talking about systems over content .. etc. Sounds like a smart idea, but what killed rift for me was the complete lack of replayability. Im not in favor of more 1-60 zones necessarily .. but some other way to progress I think it essential. I got 2 toons to 60 (or w/e cap is) and the second one was like pulling teeth. Was the most boring thing ive ever done. I quit because I had 2 fairly maxed toons and there was absolutely no way I was going to put myself through the hell of those boring quests again ... that and I absolutely hate LFDs.Anyway .. im sufficiently OT now.
I'm still liking GW2, the world vs world pvp is insane, and I still do structure pvp once in a while (the flood of FOTM thieves ruin it atm though), and man going through ALL the zones trying to discover things that aren't documented on the map and I'm loving the necromancer class. With SWTOR, it was alright for the first month or so, but going through the SAME planets again with alts but patch 1.2 is what pissed me off, and then patch 1.3 just made it worse with the lowered TTK making it a gibfest in pvp- pvp was junk in SWTOR and grinding for Battlemaster before 1.2 was a pain and then they added Champion and then added War Hero, it's always a dangling carrot you gotta chase and that's not for me.
I really don't feel GW2 is a proper MMORPG as tradtionally defined, they've tossed out/changed to much so that it really is almost in a classification by itself, more of a MMOAPG (action or adventure) than anything else.
So can't really compare it to other titles as the OP's has asked.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran I really don't feel GW2 is a proper MMORPG as tradtionally defined, they've tossed out/changed to much so that it really is almost in a classification by itself, more of a MMOAPG (action or adventure) than anything else.So can't really compare it to other titles as the OP's has asked.
GW2 is an MMORPG, why must it have certain things to make it a MMORPG?
Nothing worth playing since the 2004 releases of WoW, Everquest 2, Lineage 2 and Guild Wars. Afther that the genre starting sinking and it still is today.
GW2 is an MMORPG, why must it have certain things to make it a MMORPG?
You realise that's a different answer, subjectively, for every player alive, right?
Part of the crisis that the industry is currently going through, the players aren't rookies any more.
Thus we have mmorpg.com; players expecting different features, unhappy with the genre as a whole because no company is producing exactly what they expect.
The expectations don't change. We expect the industry to change to produce games to meet individual desires.
Since that can't happen... A lot of habitually unhappy people.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That really depends on what you're looking for in a MMORPG. There are so many different kinds of MMORPG's released since 2005 including fantasy, sci-fi, modern, post-apocolyptic, super-heroes etc. There's also sandboxes, themeparks, sandbox/themepark hybrids. Other things to consider is if the game is P2P, B2P, F2P, or a hybrid pay system; open worlds or heavily instanced; the degree of character customization you prefer before and after character select; the degree of character progression offered and the variety of character progression; and of course class-based or skill-based progression systems.
There's many more things to consider than what I said above, such as the types of PvP preferred if any and the types of PvE preferred etc.
In other words, you've given us no basis to make a comparison, thus you'll get a variety of responses based on a persons own personal biases of what they prefer in a MMORPG.
Comments
Eh, nothing of true value was lost. LotRO was a shoddy WoW clone at its best. So many things wrong with that game. So little reason to play it.
Don't bother responding to him, WoW fanboys can't seem to ever say why their game is good they just say "dur it sold a lot!" and ignore the fact that the sales were largely due to it being the first MMO with a year long marketing campaign aimed at non MMO gamers by a big name company.
WoW is average at best. And that's pushing it.
I bought Guild Wars 2 because I thought I'd enjoy running around and seeing the sights, but I don't actually play it. I tried to. I like goals. I like increased power from gear and time played so that there is only a slight illusion of skill in end game pvp. I don't mind zerg versus zerg sometimes as long as it isn't all of the time. I like tab target high fantasy mmorpg's and hope for more of them. I hated Wow because I didn't like the graphics.
I still play WAR: Age of Reckoning, and as an old die hard fan of Titan Quest (Beyond a 1000 hours making hardcore characters) I will say that WAR is good enough right now to make me feel like buying Torchlight 2 would be silly. That is saying something. I love loot grinders. I played at least 40 hours or more of the first Torchlight game. I don't really like the theme or graphics of the Diablo games.
My advice to developers is to think inside the box and make another one of what people like and put some money into it. It isn't worn out yet. Loot grinder-ish. It would be cool if everyone wasn't the same in the end though, gear wise and available skill wise.
I do not Pvmp, so I don't know what you are talking about. I haven't bought very many items at all and I don't struggle to kill anything that I want to kill, so all is good for me.
I am no Turbine Fan (no pointing to puns) but I call BS on that "pay to win" comment in PvE lotro land.
Unless you mean that free players need to buy instances from the cash shop you are really confused on what is Pay-To-Win gear. You just need to run raids/instances to get the "best" gear and with a willing party / good group even someone with chump gear can raid for the tokens or drops to get the "best" gear in the game. Since there no longer is radiance based gating mechanics for instances.
And as far PvMP goes, it must be pay-to-win if only you play it that way. Or are you "playing it wrong"? This is coming from a 80% fulltime creepside player who has played on servers with both variants of 100% freep domination as well as a strong creep domination. And I have yet to buy a SINGLE pay-to-win skill OR cash shop brand / potion for my creep. Since I dont play PvMP to pamper my ego I dont feel the need to splurge on the cash shop simply because I can hit the P2W button if I wished to.
And I (kinda) agree with the previous poster (not the original poster spouting rancid BS) that LotRO has the best "freemium" model. Everything but freep moorplay can be bought by a f2p player who hasnt spent a single dime just by playing the game (over and over) to collect Turbine Points earned in the game. Few other games give the option to earn cash shop currency in such a convenient way.
Proud Member of the A.F-D-A. [Anti Fanboy-Defense-Army]Association for a Better Tomorrow or [A.F-D-A.]AfaBT, in short.
I wasn't even sure if this thread was serious, but it's serious..
Same for me. I laughed pretty hard over the title then ... lost a little hope for humanity when finding out the thread was serious.
You stay sassy!
When I made this pole for TSW a lot of these same people said 25% was terrible, and told me I was "trying to hard" when I said 1 out of 4 people think it's the best, and that's pretty damn good.
I will say I am suprised that GW2 did not get more than 25% when during BWE's it seemed like atleast 75% of the people on this forum thought it was already the best. Maybe 25% just talked a lot, either that or something happened post launch.
Your TSW thread was on TSW's own forum, not to mention is didn't get 25% IIRC and it was made before GW2 / MOP came out. And yes, you are trying too hard, because this whole TSW vs. GW2 crusade is stupid and pointless.
Also, as dozens of people pointed out already, "excellent" doesn't mean "the best".
Define "best".
To you ? Maybe.
To me ? Not at all. GW2 already bores me when I even read the concept.
Same as GW1 then. GW1 was also pretty bugfree. So what ? Didnt helped with it being boring.
LotRO for me is 'Better', in that it's got a little more polish and a little more history...
But there's 'Better' and then there's 'absorbing' and right now? GW2 counts as the most absorbing MMO I've played!
When I check what's on sale at the Turbine store I see:
Healing potions (with NO cooldown)
Mana potions (again with NO cooldown)
Damage boosts.
Any kind of resistance boosts.
Now please tell me how those items are not pay to win.
Wait....you cant find any exploration in gw2??.../boggle
Compared to a game like Vanguard, nope i can't find any exploration in Guild Bores 2.
I really don't feel GW2 is a proper MMORPG as tradtionally defined, they've tossed out/changed to much so that it really is almost in a classification by itself, more of a MMOAPG (action or adventure) than anything else.
So can't really compare it to other titles as the OP's has asked.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You realise that's a different answer, subjectively, for every player alive, right?
Part of the crisis that the industry is currently going through, the players aren't rookies any more.
Thus we have mmorpg.com; players expecting different features, unhappy with the genre as a whole because no company is producing exactly what they expect.
The expectations don't change. We expect the industry to change to produce games to meet individual desires.
Since that can't happen... A lot of habitually unhappy people.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That really depends on what you're looking for in a MMORPG. There are so many different kinds of MMORPG's released since 2005 including fantasy, sci-fi, modern, post-apocolyptic, super-heroes etc. There's also sandboxes, themeparks, sandbox/themepark hybrids. Other things to consider is if the game is P2P, B2P, F2P, or a hybrid pay system; open worlds or heavily instanced; the degree of character customization you prefer before and after character select; the degree of character progression offered and the variety of character progression; and of course class-based or skill-based progression systems.
There's many more things to consider than what I said above, such as the types of PvP preferred if any and the types of PvE preferred etc.
In other words, you've given us no basis to make a comparison, thus you'll get a variety of responses based on a persons own personal biases of what they prefer in a MMORPG.