I'll never understand it. So many people play WoW, a game that looks bad, but people say the gameplay matters (going to avoid the argument that WoW's gameplay is even worse than the graphics)... but come on... MMORPGs are almost never at the cutting edge of graphics, much less indie MMOs.
You can expect motion captured impressive graphics with bad gameplay and no soul. Or... you can sacrifice graphics for a great MMO. Minecraft anyone?
Why would I be kidding? If you check out his blog he talks extensively about MMO design, he really knows his stuff.
MMO are created by people who know programming, physics, art design, sound and advertising.
I think the reason almost all of these "MMO" fail is because there is more to making an MMO than knowing MMO.
Everyone on this forum here knows MMO, but very few have the technical skills to actually make one.
20 technically skilled people where only one of them knows what an MMO is could make an amazing MMO.
But 20 people who know MMO and only 1 person who is technically skilled would fail miserably.
All those projects where a bunch of people who "like MMO" come together and try to make one tend to fail miserably, because playing MMO doesn't make you technically skilled. You can know tons about baseball, but that doesn't mean you're a good baseball player does it.
Uhh.... this MMO already has a working engine, and the person leading the team has worked on at least 3 other MMOs. Did you not see the veteran bit?
And your anology is pretty weak. Knowing a lot about baseball theory would make someone a pretty great baseball coach, which is more analagous to being a developer.
This "working engine" is as dated as Asherons Call's engine. And i'd be damned to play an inferior "indie" MMO with shitty graphics when I could go back to the mother of all great MMO's with shitty graphics.
Until their engine comes around to the 21st century I am firmly not following.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Originally posted by DavisFlightWhy would I be kidding? If you check out his blog he talks extensively about MMO design, he really knows his stuff. MMO are created by people who know programming, physics, art design, sound and advertising.I think the reason almost all of these "MMO" fail is because there is more to making an MMO than knowing MMO.Everyone on this forum here knows MMO, but very few have the technical skills to actually make one.20 technically skilled people where only one of them knows what an MMO is could make an amazing MMO.But 20 people who know MMO and only 1 person who is technically skilled would fail miserably.All those projects where a bunch of people who "like MMO" come together and try to make one tend to fail miserably, because playing MMO doesn't make you technically skilled. You can know tons about baseball, but that doesn't mean you're a good baseball player does it.
I think most of the people on this forum know a 'thing or two' about MMO's .. we certainly argue about them enough.. but if we all got together to make an MMO.. ... ...
If youre on fire and near a lake, jump in the lake to put the fire out! This part really is something I wondered about in most games, it should be easy to implement... And why doesnt the weather affect spells for that matter? One would think that fire and electrical spells would work better a warm sunny summer day than a rainy autumn day.
On what basis do you believe that would be "easy to implement"?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
No thanks lol, I've already donated to a game this year, no more.(I only donated since it gives me the game lol, so its more of a preorder than a kickstarter)
Because people with an ounce of common sense realize that many of the kickstarter projects are total scams. Anyone with half a brain would know you don't fund a buisness by asking for donations on the internet. You work your ass off getting loans and investors to get your startup capital. Not asking for handouts from gammers. The whole kickstarter thing reeks almost as bad as the people that call from india telling you they want to pay you to deposit money in your bank account.
No thanks lol, I've already donated to a game this year, no more.(I only donated since it gives me the game lol, so its more of a preorder than a kickstarter)
Not really. You can get your money back from a pre-order.
Yeah, you can only get your money back from roberts, if they don't make their goal(which they will). Either way, it looks a million times better than anything I've seen on kickstarter.
Originally posted by ragz45 Originally posted by DavisFlightWhy is no one discussing Project Gorgon?
Because people with an ounce of common sense realize that many of the kickstarter projects are total scams. Anyone with half a brain would know you don't fund a buisness by asking for donations on the internet. You work your ass off getting loans and investors to get your startup capital. Not asking for handouts from gammers. The whole kickstarter thing reeks almost as bad as the people that call from india telling you they want to pay you to deposit money in your bank account.
I was only thinking about this today, Apparently investors have safety nets like ceos need disclose truthful information, but Donators basicly get no rights?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Every game has associated risks, by getting crowdfunding, you are getting essentialy unrefundable preorders and generally are giving big incentives for people to do it. In the midst of planning an IndieGoGo campaign, so this thread has been insightful.
Why would I be kidding? If you check out his blog he talks extensively about MMO design, he really knows his stuff.
MMO are created by people who know programming, physics, art design, sound and advertising.
I think the reason almost all of these "MMO" fail is because there is more to making an MMO than knowing MMO.
Everyone on this forum here knows MMO, but very few have the technical skills to actually make one.
20 technically skilled people where only one of them knows what an MMO is could make an amazing MMO.
But 20 people who know MMO and only 1 person who is technically skilled would fail miserably.
All those projects where a bunch of people who "like MMO" come together and try to make one tend to fail miserably, because playing MMO doesn't make you technically skilled. You can know tons about baseball, but that doesn't mean you're a good baseball player does it.
Uhh.... this MMO already has a working engine, and the person leading the team has worked on at least 3 other MMOs. Did you not see the veteran bit?
And your anology is pretty weak. Knowing a lot about baseball theory would make someone a pretty great baseball coach, which is more analagous to being a developer.
This "working engine" is as dated as Asherons Call's engine. And i'd be damned to play an inferior "indie" MMO with shitty graphics when I could go back to the mother of all great MMO's with shitty graphics.
Until their engine comes around to the 21st century I am firmly not following.
Except that most of the things that made AC good are gone. And its easy to see just from the pre alpha videos that the graphics are miles ahead of AC1.
And are you people really so dense that you just went "herp derp" and clicked the video diary without seeing what the Kickstarter is for?
I'll help you.
THE KICKSTARTER IS SPECIFICALLY FOR ART ASSETS. THE GAME ENGINE IS FUNCTIONAL BUT ITS ALL PLACEHOLDER ART.
Originally posted by Kaynos1972 1995 graphics wont cut it, even with the best game designs, sorry.
Tell that to Dwarf Fortress fans.
If you seriously value graphics over good gameplay, then I guess good MMOs aren't for you.
And 1995? Come on, a little less with the hyperbole, people might take you a bit seriously. The graphics are easily more advanced than WoW's graphics, and people seem to like that. AND its pre alpha.
Because people with an ounce of common sense realize that many of the kickstarter projects are total scams. Anyone with half a brain would know you don't fund a buisness by asking for donations on the internet. You work your ass off getting loans and investors to get your startup capital. Not asking for handouts from gammers. The whole kickstarter thing reeks almost as bad as the people that call from india telling you they want to pay you to deposit money in your bank account.
Thanks for demonstrating you have absolutely no clue what Kickstarter is. Bravo sir.
Several games have already been funded and released through Kickstarter. People who get money from it are legally required to produce the product or they get sued to hell and back.
And what's the difference between getting funding from a publisher vs funding from people who are actually interested in the game?
One difference, mainly. Crowd funding means the devs are free to make a good game, instead of making WoW 1.2.
Originally posted by DavisFlightWhy is no one discussing Project Gorgon?
Because people with an ounce of common sense realize that many of the kickstarter projects are total scams. Anyone with half a brain would know you don't fund a buisness by asking for donations on the internet. You work your ass off getting loans and investors to get your startup capital. Not asking for handouts from gammers. The whole kickstarter thing reeks almost as bad as the people that call from india telling you they want to pay you to deposit money in your bank account.
I was only thinking about this today, Apparently investors have safety nets like ceos need disclose truthful information, but Donators basicly get no rights?
That's how it works. When you "donate" somethng, you are basically saying "Here, have some free money I no longer need."
The most you might be able to do is bring a small claims suit against them if say, they promise you a "copy of the game" but the game is never made. But if they send you a burned CD with alpha code on it, they have fulfilled their promise of giving you your "copy of the game".
The laws that can protect you by applying to "donations" such as to non-profits like churches, shelters, Salvation army, etc., that turn out to be fraudulant scams do not apply to "donations" made to a for-profit company.
This is why I find it absolutely ludicrous that people will just throw money at strangers for "promises" that have a very good chance of never appearing.
Now say, a company goes on Kickstarter and say "Look, we have investment capital of $5 million dollars. Here's a list of the investors. We are however short about $200k to get packaging and distribution finalized, so we have turned to Kickstarter to complete the process and get the game out.", I would be inclined to donate a small sum.
Why? Because I can check out those investors, I can even contact them for confirmation that the guy is legit. And I know that if he managed to get $5 million, he had to have at least something there. Sure, he could just be another Curt Schilling, but at least it wouldn't be throwing my money away out of completely blind faith.
Take for example Obsidian Entertainment. Most definitely a "legit" company. But would I give them any funds toward their Kickstarter project? No.
Why? Because they are in a panic after the release of their last project. They could find noone to hire them for another project in the AAA world. They are literally grasping at straws to stay in business. So they suddenly decided to beg for money to make their "own" project.
So you have a company that has very little operating capital, and is most well known for making buggy and broken games even with "AAA" budgets funding them.
So no, I won't touch their project with a ten foot pole.
One could think that your 15$ are the equivalent of the total GNP of the USA the way you would disect the investors and projects.
Because people with an ounce of common sense realize that many of the kickstarter projects are total scams. Anyone with half a brain would know you don't fund a buisness by asking for donations on the internet. You work your ass off getting loans and investors to get your startup capital. Not asking for handouts from gammers. The whole kickstarter thing reeks almost as bad as the people that call from india telling you they want to pay you to deposit money in your bank account.
Thanks for demonstrating you have absolutely no clue what Kickstarter is. Bravo sir.
Several games have already been funded and released through Kickstarter. People who get money from it are legally required to produce the product or they get sued to hell and back.
And what's the difference between getting funding from a publisher vs funding from people who are actually interested in the game?
One difference, mainly. Crowd funding means the devs are free to make a good game, instead of making WoW 1.2.
Imagine how good WAR would have been without EA?
Kickstarter is great idea overally. Of course it has some faults like everything but still.
I am waiting for Wasteland 2 and Project:Eternity + observing 2 more games from there and I am happy that they are created.
Still for mmorpg? Not enough funds for mmoprg I would presonally like to play. Biggest amount fromn KS for game was 4 mln $, second bit over 3 mln $.
Not enough for mmoprg with support, graphics, etc I want. Even without big publishers putting big overhead, messing with productions and spending alot on marketting and with medium graphics I doubt that any mmorpg with quality level and features I would want could be done for less than 15-20 mln $.
Warhammer without EA. Yeah could be much better, thing is it would have to be other big company that could put millions upon millions in this project.
Remember UO was funded by EA and SWG by Sony & Lucas.
Middle Earth Online second project that eventually turned into Lotro that you sometimes quote was done by Turbine and Vivendi (huge company now owner of majority shares in Acti-Blizz) until Vivendi got kick in the arse and so on.
Kickstarter is just not enough for mmoprg, unless we talk about low-budget one like Salem or Mortal Online at best. Or 2D with graphics like Ultima Online in 1997. Still great thing for single and to lesser extent multiplayer games.
Originally posted by Zefire you are kidding right?
Why would I be kidding? If you check out his blog he talks extensively about MMO design, he really knows his stuff. He even has a whole post about the pros and cons of a harsh death penalty. He's doing some really interesting things.
Are there still people out there that don't believe that Kickstarter is legit? Like those people who were afraid to use credit cards online?
Because it doesn't even look remotely like its professional.
Ultima Online was on a shoestring budget with barely any devs.
Dark Age of Camelot was funded from Mythic's experience with MUDs.
EverQuest was entirely self funded.
Eve started from nothing and grew to be the second most successful MMO on the market.
The point is, if the game is good, and the people making it are smart and experienced, it will grow. Minecraft started off as a browser based alpha game. Word of mouth helped turned it into what it is, and it was made by ONE person.
This is indeed a modest sum to make an MMO out of, but almost all the good MMOs were made on modest sums. The game is getting made either way, the Kickstarter is just to make better.
Originally posted by Zefire you are kidding right?
Why would I be kidding? If you check out his blog he talks extensively about MMO design, he really knows his stuff. He even has a whole post about the pros and cons of a harsh death penalty. He's doing some really interesting things.
Are there still people out there that don't believe that Kickstarter is legit? Like those people who were afraid to use credit cards online?
Because it doesn't even look remotely like its professional.
Heck you or I could do as good as that.
Considering I don't have the decades of game design and engine coding experience that the folks behind this game have then no, no I could not. And unless you've secretly worked on Asheron's Call or Dark Age of Camelot or something, I doubt you could.
For fks sake I wish someone would actually read what the game is instead of just jumping right to the video. You'd realize it's far better thought out/professional than most of the garbage we've been shoveled by 100 million dollar ad campaigns in the post WoW era.
Originally posted by Kaynos1972 1995 graphics wont cut it, even with the best game designs, sorry.
Talk about melodramatic. Your opinion will be better expressed without gross exagerations.
Yes the game is lower poly and stock textures compared to todays AAA releases. If looked at closely though the npcs have much higher poly counts than Wow which was released in 2005. Pre-alpha also will not have any advanced graphics layered on top of it's base textures. A very few advanced affects make a hell of a difference.
Let's not kid ourselves though, it would never be amazing even if it ever gets released. Indie games are either something you support or don't. Spending money is entirely a personal decision. I personally find many who worry about how other people are spending their money to be are broke and should worry about themselves more than others. They should also realize that many of the old school games that became very popular were indie projects later picked up by larger distributors. This how the industry used to work. It is like the movie business. Many of the most amazing movies every made were indie-projects. They screen at festivals and hope to be picked up by distributors. There are also mega-corp movie companies that make movies in house.
Sadly now we see many huge companies pumping out templated games with sequel after sequel designed for money earnings only and little originality. To not nurture indie-developing means a continued stream of genre games copy and pasted between companies. The very sad thing about indie-gaming though is that the mega-corps are now dominating the market, eating up indie-companies and leaving little room for self-developement and distribution. Indie-development in gaming is nowhere near as healthy as indie-film making. Conventions and gaming website/magazines are so totally dominated by big company money that the system for indie-gaming has been pushed to the shadows. The cost for floor space in todays biggest conventions is higher than some indie-game budgets or they now get the smallest floor space tucked back and away. Companies like EA and Activision want this.
Yet we still can see games like Minecraft take off. It is rare but sometimes gameplay simply trumps graphics. Juveniles won't understand this though and will continue posting rediculous replies thinking they are saving face by sticking with the masses.
Ultima Online was on a shoestring budget with barely any devs.
Dark Age of Camelot was funded from Mythic's experience with MUDs.
EverQuest was entirely self funded.
Eve started from nothing and grew to be the second most successful MMO on the market.
The point is, if the game is good, and the people making it are smart and experienced, it will grow. Minecraft started off as a browser based alpha game. Word of mouth helped turned it into what it is, and it was made by ONE person.
This is indeed a modest sum to make an MMO out of, but almost all the good MMOs were made on modest sums. The game is getting made either way, the Kickstarter is just to make better.
Your point is essentially correct. Most good games started out smaller and grew, however how small is debatable, many good games started out huge and fell to more realisic populations. A couple clarifiers though. I don't know who made UO or Daoc (meaning if there was a parent company) but EQ was made by 989 studios later called verant which always a subsidiary of Sony Computer Entertainment America later called SOE.
Eve is played on a world market, yes even in China on Serinity. As it's on the world market it should be compared to other games on the world market. It is not 2nd most successfull MMO on the market, not by a long shot.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
[mod edit]
I'll never understand it. So many people play WoW, a game that looks bad, but people say the gameplay matters (going to avoid the argument that WoW's gameplay is even worse than the graphics)... but come on... MMORPGs are almost never at the cutting edge of graphics, much less indie MMOs.
You can expect motion captured impressive graphics with bad gameplay and no soul. Or... you can sacrifice graphics for a great MMO. Minecraft anyone?
Asheron's Call/Wurm/Witcher quests = Win
Combine with CCP's Carbon Engine for Physics and Euclideon for graphics.
Then add a couple mill behind it for mass marketing so it doesn't get ignored like half the indie games.
Yea
This game simply must be made!
Only epic games have:
Man eating cow.
You stay sassy!
So many refreshing ideas... I hadn't seen that one. Mant his stuff is great.
Bumping once more because I got to this... I don't know how much more I can explain it other than... this guy GETS it.
http://www.eldergame.com/2012/06/what-it-means-to-be-undead/
This "working engine" is as dated as Asherons Call's engine. And i'd be damned to play an inferior "indie" MMO with shitty graphics when I could go back to the mother of all great MMO's with shitty graphics.
Until their engine comes around to the 21st century I am firmly not following.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
[quote]Originally posted by Phry
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/366934
Just say'n..
On what basis do you believe that would be "easy to implement"?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Rift
No thanks lol, I've already donated to a game this year, no more.(I only donated since it gives me the game lol, so its more of a preorder than a kickstarter)
http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
Because people with an ounce of common sense realize that many of the kickstarter projects are total scams. Anyone with half a brain would know you don't fund a buisness by asking for donations on the internet. You work your ass off getting loans and investors to get your startup capital. Not asking for handouts from gammers. The whole kickstarter thing reeks almost as bad as the people that call from india telling you they want to pay you to deposit money in your bank account.
Yeah, you can only get your money back from roberts, if they don't make their goal(which they will). Either way, it looks a million times better than anything I've seen on kickstarter.
Because people with an ounce of common sense realize that many of the kickstarter projects are total scams. Anyone with half a brain would know you don't fund a buisness by asking for donations on the internet. You work your ass off getting loans and investors to get your startup capital. Not asking for handouts from gammers. The whole kickstarter thing reeks almost as bad as the people that call from india telling you they want to pay you to deposit money in your bank account.
I was only thinking about this today, Apparently investors have safety nets like ceos need disclose truthful information, but Donators basicly get no rights?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
Except that most of the things that made AC good are gone. And its easy to see just from the pre alpha videos that the graphics are miles ahead of AC1.
And are you people really so dense that you just went "herp derp" and clicked the video diary without seeing what the Kickstarter is for?
I'll help you.
THE KICKSTARTER IS SPECIFICALLY FOR ART ASSETS. THE GAME ENGINE IS FUNCTIONAL BUT ITS ALL PLACEHOLDER ART.
Tell that to Dwarf Fortress fans.
If you seriously value graphics over good gameplay, then I guess good MMOs aren't for you.
And 1995? Come on, a little less with the hyperbole, people might take you a bit seriously. The graphics are easily more advanced than WoW's graphics, and people seem to like that. AND its pre alpha.
Thanks for demonstrating you have absolutely no clue what Kickstarter is. Bravo sir.
Several games have already been funded and released through Kickstarter. People who get money from it are legally required to produce the product or they get sued to hell and back.
And what's the difference between getting funding from a publisher vs funding from people who are actually interested in the game?
One difference, mainly. Crowd funding means the devs are free to make a good game, instead of making WoW 1.2.
Imagine how good WAR would have been without EA?
One could think that your 15$ are the equivalent of the total GNP of the USA the way you would disect the investors and projects.
Its called disposable income for a reason.
Kickstarter is great idea overally. Of course it has some faults like everything but still.
I am waiting for Wasteland 2 and Project:Eternity + observing 2 more games from there and I am happy that they are created.
Still for mmorpg? Not enough funds for mmoprg I would presonally like to play. Biggest amount fromn KS for game was 4 mln $, second bit over 3 mln $.
Not enough for mmoprg with support, graphics, etc I want. Even without big publishers putting big overhead, messing with productions and spending alot on marketting and with medium graphics I doubt that any mmorpg with quality level and features I would want could be done for less than 15-20 mln $.
Warhammer without EA. Yeah could be much better, thing is it would have to be other big company that could put millions upon millions in this project.
Remember UO was funded by EA and SWG by Sony & Lucas.
Middle Earth Online second project that eventually turned into Lotro that you sometimes quote was done by Turbine and Vivendi (huge company now owner of majority shares in Acti-Blizz) until Vivendi got kick in the arse and so on.
Kickstarter is just not enough for mmoprg, unless we talk about low-budget one like Salem or Mortal Online at best. Or 2D with graphics like Ultima Online in 1997. Still great thing for single and to lesser extent multiplayer games.
Because it doesn't even look remotely like its professional.
Heck you or I could do as good as that.
Almost all the best MMOs started small and grew.
Ultima Online was on a shoestring budget with barely any devs.
Dark Age of Camelot was funded from Mythic's experience with MUDs.
EverQuest was entirely self funded.
Eve started from nothing and grew to be the second most successful MMO on the market.
The point is, if the game is good, and the people making it are smart and experienced, it will grow. Minecraft started off as a browser based alpha game. Word of mouth helped turned it into what it is, and it was made by ONE person.
This is indeed a modest sum to make an MMO out of, but almost all the good MMOs were made on modest sums. The game is getting made either way, the Kickstarter is just to make better.
Considering I don't have the decades of game design and engine coding experience that the folks behind this game have then no, no I could not. And unless you've secretly worked on Asheron's Call or Dark Age of Camelot or something, I doubt you could.
For fks sake I wish someone would actually read what the game is instead of just jumping right to the video. You'd realize it's far better thought out/professional than most of the garbage we've been shoveled by 100 million dollar ad campaigns in the post WoW era.
Talk about melodramatic. Your opinion will be better expressed without gross exagerations.
Yes the game is lower poly and stock textures compared to todays AAA releases. If looked at closely though the npcs have much higher poly counts than Wow which was released in 2005. Pre-alpha also will not have any advanced graphics layered on top of it's base textures. A very few advanced affects make a hell of a difference.
Let's not kid ourselves though, it would never be amazing even if it ever gets released. Indie games are either something you support or don't. Spending money is entirely a personal decision. I personally find many who worry about how other people are spending their money to be are broke and should worry about themselves more than others. They should also realize that many of the old school games that became very popular were indie projects later picked up by larger distributors. This how the industry used to work. It is like the movie business. Many of the most amazing movies every made were indie-projects. They screen at festivals and hope to be picked up by distributors. There are also mega-corp movie companies that make movies in house.
Sadly now we see many huge companies pumping out templated games with sequel after sequel designed for money earnings only and little originality. To not nurture indie-developing means a continued stream of genre games copy and pasted between companies. The very sad thing about indie-gaming though is that the mega-corps are now dominating the market, eating up indie-companies and leaving little room for self-developement and distribution. Indie-development in gaming is nowhere near as healthy as indie-film making. Conventions and gaming website/magazines are so totally dominated by big company money that the system for indie-gaming has been pushed to the shadows. The cost for floor space in todays biggest conventions is higher than some indie-game budgets or they now get the smallest floor space tucked back and away. Companies like EA and Activision want this.
Yet we still can see games like Minecraft take off. It is rare but sometimes gameplay simply trumps graphics. Juveniles won't understand this though and will continue posting rediculous replies thinking they are saving face by sticking with the masses.
You stay sassy!
Your point is essentially correct. Most good games started out smaller and grew, however how small is debatable, many good games started out huge and fell to more realisic populations. A couple clarifiers though. I don't know who made UO or Daoc (meaning if there was a parent company) but EQ was made by 989 studios later called verant which always a subsidiary of Sony Computer Entertainment America later called SOE.
Eve is played on a world market, yes even in China on Serinity. As it's on the world market it should be compared to other games on the world market. It is not 2nd most successfull MMO on the market, not by a long shot.