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The Hilarious Myth of "True Skill" in PvP.

135

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    The only time ive seen true skill in a player v player video game is Game X.

    So typical of 'true skill' posts. 

    "Only Game X players have ever had any true skill."

    "No wai, game X is ezsauce, game Y was totally hard."

    (goto 10:Infinite loop error.)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Dominisi

    It is apparent that there are two factors at play here:

    #1 The OP likely just got wrecked in some pvp encounter. His opponient probably started boasting about how he has skill and the OP was terrible.

    #2 The OP doesn't have a grasp of the english language and understand what skill means. Let me define it for you:

    the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well

     

    By that definition, and your long rant afterwards about how dedicated hours and hours to a video game and its mechanics isn't skill, you defined it AS skill. Maybe if you would have spent the past 10 years learning something instead of rushing home from work/school to play video games that would get you no where due to your lack of time to dedicate to them, you would understand basic words in the english language.

    It is very unfortunate that your arrogance has blinded you to how ironic your comments truly are.

     

    The first accusation, is simply irrational. I already stated I win far more than I ever lose, often topping charts. Even with a team loss, I typically do the best on my team, and feel great about my abilities. You must not read very well, as this was stated clearly in the OP.

    The second accusation is where the irony floods in. You claim I do not have a grasp of the english language or the definition of "skill", yet never for a moment do I deny there is skill in video games, or that Time Played * Other Factors = Skill.

     

    The heavy amount of irony is in the simple fact we are talking about other's definitions of "True Skill", which is defined by them to be strictly opposite of "Skill" or "Regular Skill" to the point of "Skill" losing its definition entirely. "You don't know True Skill unless you win CS1.6 or Starcraft tournaments."

    Perhaps in your long, arrogant attempt to discredit me, you lost your ability to comprehend any part of the english language. It is actually quite scary that people like you exist, who sit at a computer screen, fail to read any part of the OP, lose any ability to understand the topic or meaning of the thread, and then insist that someone else fails understanding the definition of a word which they never spoke of directly...all with an arrogance so heavy that you probably gave yourself a pat on the back with a mischivious smirk, "My ability to debate absolutely destroyed him!"

    If you were able to comprehend any part of the english language, you would readily see that I claim to possess SKILL, but do not believe "TRUE SKILL" exists, nor does "TRUE" Skill have any greater meaning than "SKILL" or "Regular Skill". How could I deny Skill exists or dispute the definition fo Skill, if I am claiming to possess said Skill and my only opinion is that Skill is Skill, and one Skill is no more "True" or meaningful than another?

    True Skill > Skill? No, because True Skill doesn't exist. There is only Skill.

    I would savor the delicious irony, except that the arrogance and excessive amount make it take bitter; Almost disgusting.

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

    This is about as on target as you can get.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    The only time ive seen true skill in a player v player video game is Game X.

    So typical of 'true skill' posts. 

    "Only Game X players have ever had any true skill."

    "No wai, game X is ezsauce, game Y was totally hard."

    (goto 10:Infinite loop error.)

    It is almost sickening as it is disappointing that people say these things, in a thread topic defining these very people, and why they are irrational.

     

    OP: People who drink Zomberry Juice are Zombies, because Zomberry Juice turns them into a Zombie.

    Forum Zombies: Urrrrrrrrrgh! You're wrrrrrronngggggg! Type Type Type. Brains!!! What? There are none here?

    Zomboy: The only real Zombies are those who eat at least 3 humans. You don't even KNOW what it means to be a Zombie if you haven't eaten 3 humans.

     

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Yizle
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

    This is about as on target as you can get.

    Would you care to explain why? Validating other's thoughts isn't very informative to others unless you specify why you agree. You might as well just not post if you do not want to share your own thoughts.

     

    Administrator: Einstein gives a lecture on Quantumy Science, and sits down. Yizle, would you like to present your lecture on Quantumy Science?

    Yizle: What he said. I agree. Exactly what he said. *sits down, expecting a reward*

    *4 hours later*

    Yizle: Why did Einstein get cookies and not me? My lecture was epic.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I don't feel like posting more Quake or unreal videos but those games are where the skill is,RPG's offer VERY little to the skill field of pvp.

    Someone please knock me out...

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9

     (word up G home slice bacon bits!)  

    I laughed so hard at this i almost spit out my tea at the monitor LOL!!!

    Do I believe I have "true skill"? Only if I can stop laughing at the idea of someone claiming "true skill" in a video game...lol...

    Coming from someone who has been there, done that, and come home with a collection of forced rage quitting enemies and top player wins, I can honestly tell you: There is no difference in "player skill" in a game like Counterstrike or Starcraft than any other video game. In fact, most people will probably brag about those two simply for the fact they were so popular.

    It's true it's about the same as claiming there's skill involved in the heavily mod'ed heavily macro'd modified by armor stats PVP we see in games like WoW. Just doesn't exist really. I can see that and I don't even pvp....:)

    It kindof takes the fun out of competitive play, when you realize you only won due to the person being younger than you, or only lost due to them having hundreds of hours more free time to play their game. 

    Exactly, sorta brings perspective to the PVE epeens as well, there's alot of this nonsense about how awesome someone is just because they had more time and less of a real life to spend gathering all the assundry nonsense to put together a legendary. smh

     

     

    LOL, thank you. I appreciate intelligent people, especially when confronted with so much the opposite.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Bathnor
    image      "True skill" lol.

    roflmao...thank you for the laugh.

  • Oracle_FefeOracle_Fefe N/A, NYPosts: 221Member

    Could you elaborate more on this "True Skill" belief? When I read it I think of 'random talent' that players get from playing other games and I know that is not the correct assumption.

     

    Or are you stating that just because a person is good in CS, DotA, or some other game, doesn't mean they are good in new game X, Y, or Z?

  • GorweGorwe ZagrebPosts: 2,472Member Uncommon

    I'll tell you my experiences. They'll be coming from LoL and HoN.

    The point about speed is a valid one. When I play Amun Ra/Salforis/Gemini in HoN or Jarvan/TF/Gragas in LoL I have substantially higher APM than otherwise(higher than 110). It is especially visible when compared to characters that don't suit me personally and I end up with low APM(sub 75). The result? I tend to have scores that look Like 14/5/20 or 10/3/8 with High APM characters and scores such as 5/5/20 or 3/7/8 with low APM characters.

    The point about computer Knowledge I'll refute because I feel Like that's the same as Deck Stacking skills in poker. Both are valid, but prohibited(even forbidden).

    But truth be told? B-ball is a skill. Fencing is a skill. Gardening is a skill. Playing games? I guess it COULD be CONSIDERED a skill, but it is not truly a skill. And why not? Because it is just pressing keys! It requires minimal finesse and close to no Dexterity/Strength(or such things which are outright necessary for some hobbies). The only thing it requires is the ability to learn(which in itself is made out of two things: Willingness to learn and IQ) and time and a bit of finesse(or as you call it: Speed). Seeing how time spent doing something=experience, it is the primary resource of gaming. And you can't call that unemployed, ugly bloke Down the street exactly skillful, now can ya? If he were skilled he wouldn't be living in his parent's cellar. And don't even make me talk about "t3h pr0" gaming(because everyone can learn to use common Sense/common mathemagical skills, but not everone is born to be Shaquille or Jordan or Jeter or Ovechkin)-therefore the VERY definition of pro gaming is destroyed.

    Then there's "True" skill. How can we talk about parts of a voided system(mathemagics speak)? It does not make Sense. If there is no, or close to no, skill involved-how can then "True" skill exist? Lol! Pray tell...

    Then there is Psychollogy. Some people are naturally more competitive than others. Those who are more competitive have larger Abilities to learn how to hurt/harm/best other human. Others are cooperative. Mind you, both should be present in quality(this being the keyword) PvP. But if you aren't exactly competitive(I am not) and you end up with 0 Teamwork(because you are in solo-q in MOBA) and therefore receive 0 cooperation-the Odds are stacked in favour of the individual getting mad/furious/exasperated/bitter/sad. And those are not exactly quality of Life feelings, now are they?

    In cooperative setting I shine Like no other(me being a support or tank mostly). Take that element away and the only way for me to win is to take inherently OP/roflstomp character and just, well, roflstomp. But that's neither fun nor satisfying and most certainly not a skill. 

    But take that with a fistful of salt because I don't exactly like PvP(me being ESAK on Bartle's test just proves this{XNFP by Jung does not help either}[and Pisces-I lol at competitive Pisces-does that even exist lol?->me being Pisces]. One could be observant and say that Nature has made me not Like PvP. Keep in mind-I don't suck. I just don't derive pleasure from beating/hurting/harming other humans, neither do I wish to be "famous"(that thing brings Bad LUKK) nor compare myself to anyone.

    There you have it! My Tower of Text! 

    Cheers Mate!

  • CoatedCoated Woodside, CAPosts: 339Member Uncommon

    In terms of skill needed -

    Starcraft>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LoL,HoN,DoTA,MMORPG's.

    Anyways, you still need a certain amount of skill to be good, but the skill required is much much less. The average monkey behind a keyboard could do well at the latter, but not everyone can do well with the former.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,538Member Uncommon

    I consider reaction time, tactical thinking, anticipating, surrounding awareness and knowledge as skills . These can be applied (partly) to any situation. Including games.

    That some of these (like game knowledge) are only applicable in that specific game, is besides the point. It is still a skill in that you can measure yourself against someone else's skill in that field. For the definition of the word skill, it doesn't matter if it is about games or something more 'serious'. 

    The problem usually lies in what specific skill people are discussing. Often it is not even explained and ppl just end up discussing different kinds of skill.

    As for 'True skill'. That just doesn't make sense apart from just using it as silly hyperbole. You are either comparing skills or not. There is no need to classify certain skills. It is besides the point.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,538Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Coated

    In terms of skill needed -

    Starcraft>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LoL,HoN,DoTA,MMORPG's.

    Anyways, you still need a certain amount of skill to be good, but the skill required is much much less. The average monkey behind a keyboard could do well at the latter, but not everyone can do well with the former.

    This is what I mean. What this poster wrote doesn't even make sense. Classic apples vs oranges. Comparing fps with rts is useless if you are talking about skills. Both require different sets of skills. If you are great at starcraft you can still suck at a fps and the other way around. This should be obvious lol.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    Originally posted by Coated

    In terms of skill needed -

    Starcraft>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LoL,HoN,DoTA,MMORPG's.

    Anyways, you still need a certain amount of skill to be good, but the skill required is much much less. The average monkey behind a keyboard could do well at the latter, but not everyone can do well with the former.

    This is what I mean. What this poster wrote doesn't even make sense. Classic apples vs oranges. Comparing fps with rts is useless if you are talking about skills. Both require different sets of skills. If you are great at starcraft you can still suck at a fps and the other way around. This should be obvious lol.

    It doesn't make sense?

    Exactly. This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. The entire OP is ABOUT people like "Coated".

     

    CS1.6 or Starcraft? You have TRUE SKILL!

    Play other games? You don't even KNOW what true skill is!

     

    This is the "True Skill" that I am stating doesn't exist. This guy is the epitome of the OP. The epitome of the Hilarious Myth. The epitome of "True Skill".

  • f0dell54f0dell54 Des Moines, IAPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by Bathnor
    image      "True skill" lol.

    Probably the best and most accurate post in this whole thread.

    lol

  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member

    lol this likely refers to the topic I made.

    To expand on what I meant: I was referring to the skill cap.

    StarCraft and most of the Counter-Strikes have extremely high individual skill caps. League of Legends, DoTA and mobas in general do not but have extremely high team skill caps.

    It's really hard to define as the concept is abstract but it's why MMO PvP will never be taken seriously (no matter how hard Blizzard tires to push it or pay ppl to take it).

    But you know what, I could have said something that made a lot more sense: true skill and balls are involved in knee dragging at 120km/h on a Fireblade; not in the virtual world. However, I assume that nerds like me are extremely rare and that most are going to Google wtf is a Fireblade is. Mentioning that would be out of context...which I just did.

    EDIT: Oops, knee drag on highway ramps, what I said was probably not explicit enough for the non-riders to understand.

  • Odinthedark1Odinthedark1 Linden, NJPosts: 330Member
    i agree with the OP slightly the only difference i would say in opinion is that everyone has their limit and no amount of practice will ever get you past that limit, and what i believe decides that limitation are both Reflex and IQ to be able to quickly adapt to any situation is obviously important but the split seconds to react and ability within those seconds to choose the best possible course of action can make a huge difference.
  • n3v3rriv3rn3v3rriv3r NowherePosts: 349Member Uncommon

    Nice post OP.

    I would like to offer a piece of wisdom to all claiming to have "True Skill" tm in any game:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

    p.s. yes, yes I know this aplies to everyone but you

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by OSF8759
    Do not try to pwn the n00b. That's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth. There is no n00b. Then you'll see, that it is not the n00b that is pwnd, it is only yourself.
    lol

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

    I dunno, "true skill" sounds like a buzzword to differ the game you do best against other games.

    Skill exist of course and in MMO it is skill, gear and level that usually matter but "true" just seems to be bullocks.

    There are different types of skill indeed, some people have natural abilities that makes them good from the start while others have to train a lot to be good (Kasparov have both).

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon

    I agree with a lot of what the OP and a few others are saying.

    For those who seem to be getting confused by a whole lot of text, here is a simplified version.

    There is not 1 type of game that is the only type that requires "true skill" to play. Playing and being good at 1 type does not magically mean you have "true skill" and people who play another type of game arent as skilled as you.

    They require being good at completely different skillsets, but all of them require at least bits of what it takes to excel in other types.

    For example:

    MMOs typically revolve more around things like min/maxing builds (and understanding the mathematics behind everyting), understanding, memorizing,  and executing the best sequence of skills for each situation. Many games also require a lot of memorizing / being aware of your surroundings and knowing how to use the terrain to your advantage (like to break LoS when getting focused by several people and fool them into coming around at you 1 at a time). MMORPGS focus less in "twitch" skill or fast reflexes, however they do play small part. The guys who are slower to react, move around when needed, pop off quick heals when they are most crucial, etc will typically die a lot. They also require you knwoing your enemy's capabilities and being able to predict and counter what they might use against you.

    FPS games focus a lot more on twitch skills, reflexes, accuracy, etc. But they do also require some of what MMORPGs require. Memorizing maps, utilizing terrain for hiding / ambushin, setting up strategic choke points, etc. Though they may not require actual min/maxing of stats, you do still need to be very aware of things like which types of weapons are best suited for certain types of maps & situations, the accuracy, firing speed, etc. You'll see a lot of people who dont understand these things running around using every gun like a noob cannon, just firing off entire clips of ammo and barely managing to kill 1 person, or trying to use fast firing automatic weapons set to full auto trying to pick off people at long range. Then you'll see those guys dong things like taking a silenced pistol charging in and murdering the guy trying to unload a clip on him and not getting hit in the process, or a "weak" rifle with low firepower just sitting back in the distance popping off 1 round at a time taking someone down with a headshot 3/4 or more of the time. These are the guys who understand their weapon, and the enemy's weapons very well. They know how to maximize their killing power while conserving ammo, avoid getting hit by the enemies while in a hail of gunfire, and are able to easily pick up on habits and predict where the enemy will go and what they will do so they can pick off moving targets with a single shot.

    Not going to go into the whole RTS thing, enough ranting already. But point is, all types of games require similar types of skills throughout them, but obviously excelling in one skillset gives you more of an advantage in a particular type. It doesnt mean you're "more skilled" than anyone in any other type of game, just that you have more skill in the particular area being emphasized in that game.

    Some of us are fortunate enough to be quite well balanced and capable of performing all skillsets quite well. Might not be the best in an individual aspect but good enough in all of them that the combination makes you better overall. Those are the guys you will see who just kick the shit out of their competition on a daily basis wether it be fps, rts, or MMO. The guys who just hop into a new game and master it very quickly. Not the guys who are all like 'Im so much more skilled than you." then you say "OK come fight me in my game" and all of a sudden theyre like "But thats not my game that Im awesome at. Its unfair". The really skilled people will kick your ass regardless of game once they get the basics down.

  • WaterlilyWaterlily parisPosts: 2,973Member Uncommon
    People ask me why I don't want to join a PVP server. This is exactly  why lol. Bickering who is the best and the leetest and coolest and haz da most skillz. I don't see this in PVE.
  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    People ask me why I don't want to join a PVP server. This is exactly  why lol. Bickering who is the best and the leetest and coolest and haz da most skillz. I don't see this in PVE.

    Really?

    "OMG your GS isnt over 9000! U R such a n00b. You suck so bad"

    or

    "OMG you couldnt solo that boss in epic gear? I owned him in 5 seconds completely naked with a broken stick. L2P n00b!"

    People are e-peen measuring asshats regardless of type of game. 

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kaiser3282
    Originally posted by Waterlily
    People ask me why I don't want to join a PVP server. This is exactly  why lol. Bickering who is the best and the leetest and coolest and haz da most skillz. I don't see this in PVE.

    Really?

    "OMG your GS isnt over 9000! U R such a n00b. You suck so bad"

    or

    "OMG you couldnt solo that boss in epic gear? I owned him in 5 seconds completely naked with a broken stick. L2P n00b!"

    People are e-peen measuring asshats regardless of type of game. 

     Yes but pvp servers still have arguing about gear score, epics and bosses as well as people bickering over "skills"  :).

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    Originally posted by Spennet
    I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

    Problem is that your equation is only accurate to a certain point, because at a certain point, you simply can't become better even if you spend all time in the world due to certain talent being required. 

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