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The Hilarious Myth of "True Skill" in PvP.

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  • negativf4kknegativf4kk WorthingPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    true skill!!!! ROFL

    All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

    "True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

    your chess skills must be impressive. poker too.

    My chess skill average. Online porker too. But if u will sit next to me in poker game, u r likely to loose all ur money. Card dealling, shuffling, cuts. Lets say i know how to deal the cards. But it has nothing to do with the skill. Its call cheating.

    [mod edit]

    Unfortunetly got very bad spelling in three languages i speak. Glad u got the "skill" to understand ))))

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  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    What a bunch of drivel, ofcourse you can have skill in playing a video game, much like you can have skills in cooking, carpeting, dancing or whatever which requires some action on your part.
  • negativf4kknegativf4kk WorthingPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota
    What a bunch of drivel, ofcourse you can have skill in playing a video game, much like you can have skills in cooking, carpeting, dancing or whatever which requires some action on your part.

    Cook, carpenter and a dancer waiting in lobby to hand in their applications, to add their discipline for olympic games committee. Gamer comes in, looks at them and presses Esc.
     

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by negativf4kk
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    true skill!!!! ROFL

    All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

    "True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

    your chess skills must be impressive. poker too.

    My chess skill average. Online porker too. But if u will sit next to me in poker game, u r likely to loose all ur money. Card dealling, shuffling, cuts. Lets say i know how to deal the cards. But it has nothing to do with the skill. Its call cheating.

    [mod edit]

    Unfortunetly got very bad spelling in three languages i speak. Glad u got the "skill" to understand ))))

    interestingly my 3 languages have far better grammar than that.

     

    well at least 2 of the 3. I haven't uused my french for video game forums yet.

    image

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,447Member Uncommon

    I don't feel like posting more Quake or unreal videos but those games are where the skill is,RPG's offer VERY little to the skill field of pvp.For one thing it is to ophard to manage 30/40/50 spells/askills/abilities,it is actually impossible with a fast paced pvp encounter.So the usual deciding factor is gear/levels reallyu nothing that is truly skillful.

    A skilled player in Unreal or Quake would embarrass a new player, or even one with a few months gameplay under his belt.

    First of all you need a skillful map,one that offers various choices for movement and weapon choices.RPG's NEVER offer  this and even the newer MOBA style games offer nothing but a bland map.

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • negativf4kknegativf4kk WorthingPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    true skill!!!! ROFL

    All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

    "True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

    your chess skills must be impressive. poker too.

    My chess skill average. Online porker too. But if u will sit next to me in poker game, u r likely to loose all ur money. Card dealling, shuffling, cuts. Lets say i know how to deal the cards. But it has nothing to do with the skill. Its call cheating.

    I assume grammar skills also qualify as "lol"...

    Unfortunetly got very bad spelling in three languages i speak. Glad u got the "skill" to understand ))))

    interestingly my 3 languages have far better grammar than that.

     

    well at least 2 of the 3. I haven't uused my french for video game forums yet.

    Oh stop))) its enought about me))) 

    So what u think about "true skill" in pvp?

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    Oh stop))) its enought about me))) 

    So what u think about "true skill" in pvp?

    I think the ability to make split-second decisions that change the outcome of the battle when odds are against you and the traditional routes would lead to failure is a sign of skill.

     

    or, perhaps of Talent, I should say.

    image

  • negativf4kknegativf4kk WorthingPosts: 377Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    Oh stop))) its enought about me))) 

    So what u think about "true skill" in pvp?

    I think the ability to make split-second decisions that change the outcome of the battle when odds are against you and the traditional routes would lead to failure is a sign of skill.

     

    or, perhaps of Talent, I should say.

    I agree, but unfortunetly none of modern MMO caters for ur understanding of "true skill". There r some old ones.....but

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  • VidirVidir GothenburgPosts: 944Member Uncommon
    True pvp skill is daring to play the real pvp games and not dragging this into our fantasy games.
  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9

     (word up G home slice bacon bits!)  

    I laughed so hard at this i almost spit out my tea at the monitor LOL!!!

    Do I believe I have "true skill"? Only if I can stop laughing at the idea of someone claiming "true skill" in a video game...lol...

    Coming from someone who has been there, done that, and come home with a collection of forced rage quitting enemies and top player wins, I can honestly tell you: There is no difference in "player skill" in a game like Counterstrike or Starcraft than any other video game. In fact, most people will probably brag about those two simply for the fact they were so popular.

    It's true it's about the same as claiming there's skill involved in the heavily mod'ed heavily macro'd modified by armor stats PVP we see in games like WoW. Just doesn't exist really. I can see that and I don't even pvp....:)

    It kindof takes the fun out of competitive play, when you realize you only won due to the person being younger than you, or only lost due to them having hundreds of hours more free time to play their game. 

    Exactly, sorta brings perspective to the PVE epeens as well, there's alot of this nonsense about how awesome someone is just because they had more time and less of a real life to spend gathering all the assundry nonsense to put together a legendary. smh

     

     

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by negativf4kk
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    Oh stop))) its enought about me))) 

    So what u think about "true skill" in pvp?

    I think the ability to make split-second decisions that change the outcome of the battle when odds are against you and the traditional routes would lead to failure is a sign of skill.

     

    or, perhaps of Talent, I should say.

    I agree, but unfortunetly none of modern MMO caters for ur understanding of "true skill". There r some old ones.....but

    GW2 does that just fine, just because the types of pvp are in protest does not discount the fact that there are no special armors or special gears that enhance a players ability to own another player in pvp in GW2, it provides the environment for true skill to occur just fine.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    You can demonstrate "skill" within any game genre, or indeed within any game which provides the ability to directly compete with or otherwise compare yourself to another player.

     

    That said, some games/mechanics place more emphasis upon player driven differences over and above character driven differences.

     

    The usual comment with regards to FPS/RTS et al games in comparison is that at the end of the day, we start with the same stuff and when you die, I have outplayed you. In a progression based game, when you die, I may have also outplayed you, but it may also be the case that I have better character stats/items/skills or some other form of non player specific mechanic disparity (i.e. a level 40 whacking a level 4).

     

    You then also have to consider individual mechanics. Consider TAB target vs twitch aim. On a level playing field we may both have the same knowledge of the game, but a twitch system allows the user with that additional skill/proficiency to overcome the opponent.

     

    Ultimately though, regardless as to what you are playing, you will encounted "goods" and "bads".

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    I give 1/10 -> pretty weak.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • BathnorBathnor Standish, MEPosts: 136Member
    image      "True skill" lol.
  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member

    Sorry OP, but some people are always going to be better gamers than others.  Just like some people are smarter than others.  Using yourself an proof is hardly any way to make a point. 

    The fact of the matter is that some people are able to multitask better than others; others are better at hand-eye coordination; others are smarter at noticing how well certain moves work against opponents; some players just have all of the aptitudes for gaming while others only have a few. 

    What is hilarious is for someone to claim that skill is not a factor in any mental or physical sport...

     

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    true skill!!!! ROFL

    All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

    "True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

    Well.. in mmos it often comes down to that. Not so true in other games. In UT(the first one) you really needed a good hand eye coordination.. and fast reflexes. Knowing the game alone didnt help you, there.

  • stuxstux Lake Forest, ILPosts: 462Member

    Like any other game (RL, computer, board game, etc.) it does take skill from a combination of intellect, coordination, quick thinking, practice, knowledge, etc.

     

    Come play darkfall and lets see how good you really are.

     

    EDIT

     

     

    skill

    1    [skil] Show IPA

     

    noun

    1.
    the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.

     

    2.

    competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.

     

    3.

    a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.

     

    4.

    Obsolete . understanding; discernment.

     

    5.

    Obsolete . reason; cause.

     

    source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skill

     

     
  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9

    It has to deal with people who believe "true skill" is found in specific games, but not in other games. That somehow Counterstrike is more "serious" than Call of Duty or Tribes. That somehow MOBA games are more involved with player skill than Supreme Commander or Age of Empires 2. That somehow Ultima Online PKing is more serious of a competition than WoW tournaments.

    Why do you even mention me at all? Why waste your time replying in an off-topic format, completing ignoring the reality of the topic?

    But, it is partially true. As example. The original UT and Quake3 were a lot faster as lets say CS or BF or almost all modern shooter. It required a lot more quickness(hand eye coordinationes and reflexes).. but is that skill? Well, in some way yes.

    In MMOs, where you got in most games a Global Cooldown of above 1 sec. everything is more or less super slow and you dont need a lot of hand eye coordiation or reflexe.. because almost all are capable of handling that. Then it becomes more about knowledge of the game, or imbalances within, or team play or whatever.

    But your thesis about "true skill" is right. Different games require different qualifications.. and the most of it can be learned over time from almost everyone. And the last 1% is skill, or better said, physical advantage. In some games it is less in other more, but in almost all the greater share is time spent.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,439Member Uncommon

    Sometimes I play in a way that makes it more fun for other players even if I loose.

    I call it a skill.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Spennet
    I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

    Exactly.

    Except for many people here claim...

     

    1) If you play Counter-Strike or Starcraft, your skill is "true" while other games make your skill (I can only assume...) "untrue".

    2) If I speak about PvP in any fashion, it MUST have been because I lost, am angry at losing, and am frustrating with my inability to play correctly. If you "dis" PvP in any regard, it MUST be because you suck at it.

    3) Other irrational claims not based in reality.

     

    The primary point of the OP is that playing a specific game, such as Counter-Strike or Starcraft, doesn't make your "skill" any more "true" than if you were playing a different video game.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

    If I beat the person, why would it be "true skill"?

    If I lose to the person, ask why, and they state that they have hundreds, even thousands of more hours in the game than me, how is their skill truer than someone who doesn't play Counterstrike, Starcraft, or Chess- and instead plays a less popular FPS, RTS, or board game?

     

    The concept of "True Skill" is laughable, because of the implication of it being "True" as compared to other Skills of equal competency.

     

    I'm sorry, but I refuse to recognize Counter-Strike players as having "True Skill" while people who play Tribes don't know what "True Skill" is.

     

    Either Skill is "True" anywhere it is found, or there is no such thing as "True Skill". Since the very semantics of "True Skill" is to differentiate "True Skill" from "Skill" or "Regular Skill" with an emphasis on "Skill" not being actual Skill and demeaning it of its definition...I propose that "True Skill" is a myth.

    Of course, I MUST suck at Counter-Strike, Starcraft, and Chess. How else would I come to this conclusion that "True Skill" is a myth? Why else would I not worship tournament winners and pro gamers, as if they're better than other players who could beat them but do NOT enter tournaments? I must be blind to "True Skill" since I am unable to recognize it in players who score thousands of hours in a single video game. I mean, it's not like the best of the best isn't some 12 year old Chinese prodigy gamer who never enters tournaments but can headshot you with an unscoped sniper rifle from 1000m away.

     

    I believe the argument here, and especially those who vehemently disagree with me to the point of feeling a desire to attempt to attack my perspective or insult me personally, is mostly about the definition of "True Skill". I am often amazed at how people can disagree with one another without even first agreeing on what they're discussing.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    true skill!!!! ROFL

    All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

    "True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

    Exactly. Yet so many here believe skill is not only real in video games, but it is TRUE or "more true" in one video game over the next.

    You will find these quotes to be commonplace among gamers:

     

    "WoW Arena 5v5 is the only Arena that actually matters." (It matters? It matters more than other forms of competitive play? It matters more than PvE?)

    "You don't know what true skill is, until you play in CS1.6 or Starcraft tournaments and win."

    "It's not REAL PvP unless it's FFA PvP."

    "If you're complaining, speaking ill of competitive play, or insulting my game idealogy, it MUST be because suck. There is no other reasoning to be speaking right now." (Paraphrase Interpretation of Trollspeak)

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by bubaluba
    I would rather say OP is posting that thread because he got pawned in pvp from fps to rts. Dude we all know that  psychology  game because we are old gamers and you can show that to small children and not to us.  Wen people get pawned they are angry on all gaming comunity and post like this one is last hope to get some attention. You can try something in real world if you want some harder challenge, for example try  boxing, running, cycling, archery if  gaming is to easy for you.  9-1 yea sure, maybe was my grandpa playing CS

    For the sake and sanity of the human race, I hope to God you are not serious and this is not a real paragraph.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Greenthingg

    There are people that are more skilled than others at video games.  Even after years of practice, some people never learn.

     

    I used to be a friggin beast at Street fighter vs Capcom arcade games, back in the days at the old underground arcade, where you'd be PvPing people with nowhere to hide, where respect was earned with real proof in the pudding.

    I used to care for my reputation and was really dead serious about that game at the arcade, because there was a real sense of competition.  Nowadays, in MMOs, there's nothing close to it.  The only real fun i've had in MMO PvP was in Warhammer, where my guild group would farm PuG zergs with a 6-12 man, but that was just like what the OP's saying, clubbing baby seals with our decked out characters full of the best IWIN items (most of them duped and exploited, well, I never duped, but people I know gave me all the best stuff lawl, thanks to the terrible Mythic coders).  It was fun, but nowhere near 'skilled PvP' as most would be claiming.

    In GW2, there might be a true 'skill' cap for sPvP, the best teams playing to win games, having fantastic strategies to do that, but IMO, the sPvP isn't fun.  It's capture points objectives just dosen't seem appealing to me, since I play to PvP and not to cap flags faster than my ennemy, that's just boring, and I just simply can't get really serious about it.  People can get really good at avoiding fights to cap objectives, and that irritates the shit out of me when I pull a team together to play tournaments.  We killed more, but lost the fight, yeah cool game there Anet.  Some might disagree, but to each their own, I respect that everyone can have different tastes.

     

    What I dislike about people claiming to be more skilled than others in MMOs, is the class imbalances and the EPEENERY it creates, and the FOTM classes imbalancing the metagame, and the rinse repeat endless cycle of nerfs and buffs.  Due to those facts, hard to judge real 'skill'.  Same can be said about street fighter games though, they always have imbalance problems.

     

    So in short, yes, there are truely more 'skilled' players, but it's hard to meter in MMOs.

    Great post, full of intelligent thought and actual experience.

    It's easy to tell good players (you) from the rest (drivel).

     

    Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    There is skill in every game.

     

    I used to be a "lan / tournament gamer". I've won cash, towers, CPUs, GPUs, xBox 360, high-end media, etc. In fact, I used some of the money I won to purchase an engagement ring (long time ago).

     

    It's obvious that hand-eye coordination is less important in a MMO. However, speed is still very important. Proper hardware and keybindings is a must, e.g., binding all hotbar keys to keystrokes and mouse buttons. You should never have to click on a hotbar. The ability to render frames faster than normal is important, too. The game might not look pretty, but the performance boost with low detail or without shadows allows faster reaction time.

    Having the setup is only half the battle. The other half is using your brain - knowing when, what, and where to attack and/or counter-attack.

    True Skill in gaming is Speed.

    No need to provide links, what you say is entirely believable simply for its accuracy.

     

    It is great to know that other gamers who are excellent at video games believe the same thing.

    I'd have to say, this is entirely accurate. If I were to give three reasons why I am typically better than most players, it would have to be

    1) Speed. Hands down, this is why. I am pretty sure the reason I cast off 4-5 abilities by the time someone does a single 1, is because of speed. There's few other reasons I see me being better than simply being able to click, key, or mouse faster.

    2) Experience & Knowledge of gaming in general. Knowing that whenever your enemy goes around a wall expecting you, simply reversing where someone would normally go is almost always a guaranteed win in casual play. Even among good players, my experience playing lets me KNOW where to go or what to do. You learn not only to predict casual players, but even to predict people you know are trying to predict you (better players). Knowing the best order to use your abilities, knowledge of the game mechanics as to what is OP and gimped, what should be saved, and how to counter what most newbs complain about and say is an OP ez-mode ability. (Ex. I never had a problem with Frenzy in GW2, as my build was OP, and the first good player to use it on me was shot down by me reading how to counter it-- which is super easy.)

    3) Hardware, Software Computer Knowledge, etc. (Especially in an MMORPG, this naga mouse is epic ez-mode, lol. In SWTOR PvP, I even had one character who literally just spammed a SINGLE button. In other games, I sometimes create scripts to be lazy.) If anyone even uses the mouse to CLICK an ability, I instantly laugh at them. It's like someone claiming to be good at FPS games while using a Controller (as opposed to a mouse+keyboard).

     

    By far though, it's speed. Knowledge of the game, hardware or computer knowledge, accuracy, coordination-- nothing compared to Speed. (Hardware counts when it comes to giving you better Speed, but since it's NOT an option for me to NOT use some form of superior input config, my #3 is separate from #1.)

     

    While I am no expert in RTS games, my competitive experiences and research into pro play indicates that Speed has a significant importance in these games. Otherwise, people wouldn't be so obsessed with clicks per minute.

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