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Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Razimus Originally posted by Auzy Gonna have to disagree and say its combat....
I will say PvP is #2, or 'Combat', but without Non-Instanced-Housing I won't waste my time and money on any MMORPG no matter how great the combat is.
And i don't care about non-instanced housing. I won't waste my time on games without good combat, and i don't care about non-instanced housing if the combat is fun.
You do realise non instanced housing can greatly add to combat right?
Not really to combat no. But it gives objectives. Actyally, scratch that, you can have those same objectives without housing.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It's an MMO(RPG) right?
#1 most imporatant thing
Interdependent Game Design
Originally posted by Bladestrom It's a great idea in theory, but it would have to be indestructible to avoid obvious grieving and only be allowed in certain area or you will just get property sprawl that would destroy performance and immersion. If you limit to certain areas without instancing then space is limited, and if you don't limit space and don't instance you hit performance issues. Its a good idea but can only work in games that have small populations, ie if a game is good with housing it's catch 22 it can't cope.
That's pretty much how UO did it when I played, you could only place your house in certain areas.
Aion has residental areas in certain areas of the world (with the vast majority of houses being in a village especially made for players to live in).
Of course the obvious downside to both of those is... expect to pay a LOT if you want a house because there is only so much space to go around, and once it's all gone and in player hands expect them to be greedy and charge a fortune for properties.
Aion gives everyone an instanced appartment as a starting home to get past the above problem, but once you want to upgrade to a real house... yeah...
Originally posted by Gravarg It depends on what you like really. For me it's all about story and lore. If it doesn't have a good story like daoc, wow, lotro, ffxi or rift, I don't want to play it. Everyone has thier own thing they have to have though.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Feel free to send me a message if you want a guest pass to try Black Desert Online as well!
Just to point out... back in the late 90's and early 2000's we were having 100 vs 100 battles surrounded by houses and all the items inside those houses in UO and this was on dial up.
With that being possible durring that time period and on that kind of connection I have serious trouble ever buying into the "it can't cope" type of arguement. Sure, graphics have come a long way but so has the technology that we rely on for these kinds of games and if graphics really do prove to be the limiting factor then there is a simple solution. Give us the game play even if it reduces the overall graphics because it's the game play that matters most.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Razimus Originally posted by Auzy
Players can put down "housing" in very creative ways which offer objectives and combat situations you would not otherwise see to anywhere near the same extent. Furthermore fighting over a fixed objective for "points" is nothing at all like fighting for your own guilds player city. Or wiping out an enemy guilds recently placed pvp base.
It is not going to have an impact upon explicit mechanics, but it offers combat situations and an investment which are not really found without them, hence the overall "combat" has been improved.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by Apraxis Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Razimus Originally posted by Auzy Gonna have to disagree and say its combat....
Ok.. then you should play The War of Roses, because in that game combat is fun. Well.. it doesnt have anything else, but the combat is fun.
I probably will check that out. May be after i finished dishonored. Dishonored's stealth "combat" is also fun too although it is definitely not suitable for a MMO.
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Only sounds good on paper. Is there an example of such game play?
Originally posted by RazimusI will say this,those who don't have Non-Instanced-Housing in their top 10 requirements for an MMO, or top 5 or 3 even, have likely never fully experienced it, there's nothing else like it, there is no comparison, it's like comparing a laser death ray weapon to throwing a rock, there's no comparison.
Combat is 75-90% of games today, so for me it is combat mechanics. Which sucks because I try to avoid combat as much as possible. I enjoy simple combat using strategy over twitch-type mechanics. The best combat I have experienced in a game was Wizard101. Turn based strategy does it for me, like the Pen and Paper games of yester-yore. After all, whether you are mashing 1 button or 2, or even 50, you are still mashing buttons. I guess I am just too s-l-o-w for these "young" game players these days (he says, shaking his walking cane )
That being said, there truly are many aspects that go into making a game fun and interesting. It really boils down to how these aspects are meshed together.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Mannish For me a game has to have a heavy social aspect where you have to talk and work with other people to get things done. I hate mmos where you spend 99% of the time running around solo and never have to say anything to anybody.
This. I like to group and work with other players.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Sure, i'll give and example.
There are a few games which have offered that, but here i'll just mention SWG. Now I am not going to start rose tinting about the game as others are wont to do, because it had major, major issues. Before anyone cites popularity and the fact the game tanked and died, well let's be honest with ourselves here, the housing system didn't cause that it is that kind of content which stopped the game from dying on it's arse earlier.
I clearly remember being involved in highly enjoyable player city and player base pvp in that game. We used to have 3 or 4 major pvp guilds on the server who would lay out their guild cities to be pvp centres. We would form alliances with other guilds and raid these player cities. It generated a great deal of content for the players from the combat aspect, through to the social aspect.
Other times we would drop factional bases within out cities and challenge others to try come and take them down. Player cities became a hotbed for pvp, from mass warfare to mini raids, to bragging rights. Guilds would go and try and lock off other guilds shuttle ports, people would drop houses and big old statues to funnel attackers etc.
I remember clearly our guild city being attacked out of the blue, gradually more and more guilds came to attack it and defend it. After several hours the pvp with masses of players on either side, ended up moving from player city, to starport, to other player cities before taking in points of interest. Just one massive running war which all came about from a small scale player city raid.
The thing is, that was all in a consensual pvp game with what was a fairly piss poor combat system, that is also without destroyable player buildings. And yet is still provided the best combat/pvp that went on in that game and some of the most memorable pvp I have had in mmos (and i've had alot!). Imagine what could be done now, but alas, it is just seen as "fluff".
Imagine that with destroyable player deployed content, with more focus on the combat side of player housing and the importance of them as pvp hubs (as well as the usual social features they add). Player towns which control game world areas, guilds making castles (space ports/whatever) and other people putting down houses near the castles for safety, whilst other guilds attack them. It is as clear as day that non instanced housing can offer a great deal.
All of that before you consider the social aspect of player housing, the importance to guilds and small player communities, the personal investment of the player within the game world, a direct connection which gives a sense of permanency and persistency.
But as you say, for the main part now that is on paper, which for me as a sad thing. It is such a shame that so many people and seemingly so many dev teams only consider houses as instanced, fluff spaces for people to put furniture they have got from a cash shop. It really can (and has before) offered so much more. Sadly exactly the same can be said of the genre as a whole.
I'd have to agree with the posters saying Community is #1.
For me, community covers a lot of different things. Player generated content, fully functioning guilds/guild interface, content that allows large groups of people to participate i.e. not restricting numbers to 25 for raids like most of todays MMO's because 25 just isn't Massively Multiplayer. True MMO's should cater for hundreds of players to participate together in activities.
It can also include non instanced housing like we had in SWG, although it's not a particularly important aspect for me personally. I did appreciate the fact that as a guild you could create your own town but my own house was pretty empty apart from a crafting station and a few bits of armour I'd collected.
Yes, you expect your MMO to have decent combat and good graphics and balance etc but if the community sucks or you can spend all your time solo you may as well just play a single player game.
Originally posted by Razimus The #1 most important thing in an MMORPG What I consider to be the clear and defining line, defining the bad from the great: Non-Instanced-Housing If the MMO that I'm playing doesn't have it, if the developers don't even know what it is, if the community have never experienced it. Only few, and by few I mean I can only name 2 MMORPGs that have ever even boasted Non-Instanced-Housing, knowing it's rare I'll explain to those who have not experienced it. It is when your house in the game is not a decoration, it is terrain, it directly impacts other players as not only can they see it but they are forced to walk around it, it is as real as the rest of the terrain in the entire game, when you open the door you are *NOT* transported to an imaginary place that only you and invited friends can see, for ALL CAN SEE AT ALL TIMES, NON-INSTANCED-HOUSING defines whether an MMORPG is worth dedicating the time to stay in or not, because most don't have it most aren't worth wasting time on. The entire game changes with Non-Instanced-Housing, bad neighborhoods, turf wars, good neighborhoods, alliances, wars, battles, it becomes more than a place to store your crap, it becomes the game itself, property value, real estate, economy, there are so many factors I can't list them all, but when an MMORPG has Non-Instanced-Housing instead of Lame Instanced-Housing, or no housing at all, that game you know is going to be serious, you know a game with Non-Instanced-Housing is going to be kick ass. For those who haven't experienced it are missing A LOT.
From what I've experience in different MMORPG's, I'd say that you are spot on, just the world, having real terrain, no zone borders that 'magically' you cannot pass everywhere.
Non instanced housing and open worlds I consider to be the main generator of a good community, good lore, and fun combat, and everything in between. It creates an explorable world that does not feel like a small isolated landscape that is not connected to the next 'area' you enter, and I think this in it self is biggest factor in successfully having a game that feels worth playing, because it opens so many other opportunites to the developers, now if they'd get there collective asses together and put all these great features together...
AC has real housing since 2001, basic housing non the least, with being able to put sweet loots on hooks or an infamously epic quest to show off your deeds, and fountains and scarecrows (edit and snowmans!). But no actual changability to the structures and materials and terrain which I enjoy in...
Wurm, another game that you can actually get lost in the giant world and immersed, think Minecraft on crack with a content and learnable knowledge on par with EVE.
As an old time player of UO, I agree to a certain point. Non-instanced housing really makes the game feel alive and it really immersed you into the game. However unless done correctly, this feature will most likely result in a "first come first win" competition. This will deter newer players from playing and that is not good for the game. If you suggest to remove housing of inactive players, then inactive players will not want to come back to the game. Again it's not good for the game.
While there are many benefits to non-instanced housing (I personally love it), I can see why dev avoids it. It simply is more trouble than it's worth.
I need to modify my previous answer. You can't pick just 1 and wing the rest.
1) fluid, responsive, fast and fun combat - this is non negotiable
2) A+ art direction - can be stylized or realistic
3) Interesting lore and storytelling - this isn't an FPS
4) Easy to find groups for PVE/PVP content
5) character progression at the level cap - cosmetic only doesn't cut it
How many mmo's have had non-instanced housing?
Does UO count?
I'm just trying to figure out which game the OP played that made this his one deal-breaker.
I'm hedging my bets on SWG.
Originally posted by MannishFor me a game has to have a heavy social aspect where you have to talk and work with other people to get things done. I hate mmos where you spend 99% of the time running around solo and never have to say anything to anybody.
Yes exactly. Nothing feels less online than a bunch of strangers passing each other without a word being said. That's like entering a chat room with 50 people where no one is typing anything.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Noninstanced. Full stop.
None. If a game has no instances its usually an indicator that it'll be a good MMO being run by people that actually understand what an MMO is.
None instanced housing is a nice feature in a MMO but the most important thing in an MMO is socializing.
The only thing really unique to MMOs is the massive social game between a huge amount of players, without it none instanced housing is nothing and neither is good combat.
If you want good combat or just to build a really cool house there are single player and regular multiplayer game doing a lot better job, like Mount & blade and Minecraft.
The social MMO game on the other hand is priceless, as I see it are none instanced player housing just a small part of that thing, and far from the most important.
Originally posted by Loke666 None instanced housing is a nice feature in a MMO but the most important thing in an MMO is socializing. The only thing really unique to MMOs is the massive social game between a huge amount of players, without it none instanced housing is nothing and neither is good combat. If you want good combat or just to build a really cool house there are single player and regular multiplayer game doing a lot better job, like Mount & blade and Minecraft. The social MMO game on the other hand is priceless, as I see it are none instanced player housing just a small part of that thing, and far from the most important.
Open worlds encourage and create better social aspects.
Then say in wow where everyone feels like a hobo, is only worried about Killsteal, ect. Social doesn't make community, a good game does.
E: the real key is does the game create a social enviroment, and if the game has the ability to implement non instanced housing in their world, not wether they implement it, but the idea that the game is expanding and changable. I'm afraid you missed the point.
That's the thing though, non instanced housing was rather a large component of the social scene of mmorpgs. As the genre chops out these mechanics, it chops up the community aspects unique to the mmo space.
It just seems that people are saying "community" or "combat" without realising that actually, that community and that combat is being lessened because of the removal of all these mechanics that some seem to consider to be fluff.
PVP combat (open) and the community/social aspect are the two most important cornerstones as far as I am concerned with mmos. If someone says what's the most important thing in an mmo I don't say "houses, houses everywhere". But it is stuff like non instanced player housing that drives the depth and uniqueness of these two features. It is not about just building a house in a game world, it is about putting down player communities, social hubs, combat hotspots.
Gameplay is the #1 thing in MMOs. A lackluster game will never develop the core playerbase it needs to build a community and support ongoing development of the game. People can overlook outmoded graphics and animations (looking at you, EQ), boring story and lore, even technical limitations that mar the experience. If the game doesn't have cohesive, fun systems to engage the player it's got no hope of success.
As for housing, there's nothing inherently better about non-instanced versus instanced. In the grand old days dungeons were open world which brought some good and bad aspects. The move to making them instanced did not suddenly make the latter worthless. The reason why non-instanced housing is so lauded is that games took advantage of housing in the world by building compelling systems around them. Territorial control, PvP, player cities, etc. The reality is that developers have not yet had the creativity and/or ambition to put the same effort into surrounding instanced housing with interesting metagame to make it more than just a place to decorate and put your stuff. It's only a matter of time, though, before someone takes things to the next level.
I disagree with the OP.
Community is the most important thing in a MMO
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by Loke666 None instanced housing is a nice feature in a MMO but the most important thing in an MMO is socializing. The only thing really unique to MMOs is the massive social game between a huge amount of players, without it none instanced housing is nothing and neither is good combat. If you want good combat or just to build a really cool house there are single player and regular multiplayer game doing a lot better job, like Mount & blade and Minecraft. The social MMO game on the other hand is priceless, as I see it are none instanced player housing just a small part of that thing, and far from the most important.