I was looking at my map and noticed that many of the zones in GW2 are simply boxed-in rectangles. This seems kinda lame for a AAA MMO in 2012. More like something I would expect from an old NES game.
Show me any MMO that doesn't have the game space contained in rectangles. They all do. Whether the game is contained in a single box, (very rare, not even Vanilla WoW was a single box), a handful of large boxes, or each zone is contained in a box, they are all designed that way.
It's obvious looking at the map because the zones fit together edge to eadge, rather than being isolated pockets of a larger world. They don't look or feel rectangular when you are playing. The zones are huge and though the absolute boundary may be contained within a rectangular box, the geography hides that fact extremely well.
I was looking at my map and noticed that many of the zones in GW2 are simply boxed-in rectangles. This seems kinda lame for a AAA MMO in 2012. More like something I would expect from an old NES game.
Show me any MMO that doesn't have the game space contained in rectangles. They all do. Whether the game is contained in a single box, (very rare, not even Vanilla WoW was a single box), a handful of large boxes, or each zone is contained in a box, they are all designed that way.
It's obvious looking at the map because the zones fit together edge to eadge, rather than being isolated pockets of a larger world. They don't look or feel rectangular when you are playing. The zones are huge and though the absolute boundary may be contained within a rectangular box, the geography hides that fact extremely well.
But isn't the whole problem as far as i can see, that GW2 came out with a map that show it like this. I have the feeling that a little more work with the map and especial what you see when you scroll in and out , could have gone a very long way to avoid this feeling of rectangularness. I agree the zones doesn't feel like rectangular when playing them. But the map simply feels like it doesn't do the job of hidding a mechanic that could have been hidden , namely that a zone is something place in a rectangular area.
I minor issue , but i would really have loved if the map had hidden this better.
as you said you have 100% map completetion please explain how the zones don't feel nautral in how they are setup? each one has some sort of natural or man-made structure to segregate the zones.. each one has a transition effect of the enviornemnt that progressively changes as you move to the next region.. just trying to understand your point but I don't see it. The zones are not linear, are very spread open, very few invisible walls, offer many paths to move around the zone and offer sensable barriers and transitions between the zones.
I find it pretty obvious when wandering around most of the maps that I am essentially wandering through a big, rectangular, walled off area. Whenever I pop world map to fast travel (on the odd occassion I don't Heart of the Mist it up), that sense of parcelled off zones is further enforced.
As for it being non linear... Well I could wander around in a haphazard way within the confines of any games maps, but the hearts are guided through the map and they for the main part reveal a quite blatant and highly structured "flow". Am I saying every other game does it better? Nope.
With regards to "few" invisible walls, well it really depends on what you are used to, but there is a great deal of impassable terrain within each map. Your character has issues getting up gradients which Stephen Hawking could probably manage.
The barriers between zones, well yes they are incredible "sensible", but they also seem very OTT as well.
You feel differently, great. Regardless as to the underlying mechanics, peoples subjective feelings are different. You happen to think it feels very open and non linear, and from time to time it feels the same way to me. But for a great deal of the time that simply isn't the case. That doesn't mean I think you are wrong, it's just that in my opinion the mechanics don't promote that feeling in me. Such is life. But don't assume that I haven't played the game extensively just because my view on the subject differs from yours.
Look from my perspective it really isn't a big deal as (I said before) I wasn't looking to this game to provide a big old world feeling. But it is quite clear that the physical features within the world map which surround the zones look pretty darn unatural. Some have zero issue with it, some notice it.
If people are using it as a major deal in order to bash the game then, well that's odd. If though people are coming out and trying to say it looks natural, it couldn't have been done better, or that anyone who even picks up on it is nitpicking and some kind of "hater", well then they are also wrong.
There are numerous mechanical/gameplay reasons to justify exactly why ANET have done it this way. There is also the simple, subjective "it feels like a game world to me and the map doesn't effect that" argument. All of them are legitimate. But some of the ones we have seen in this thread are terribad. Planets are spherical, my house is square, maps are drawn on square paper, people confusing grid line sections with physical features. You really could not make it up.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
as you said you have 100% map completetion please explain how the zones don't feel nautral in how they are setup? each one has some sort of natural or man-made structure to segregate the zones.. each one has a transition effect of the enviornemnt that progressively changes as you move to the next region.. just trying to understand your point but I don't see it. The zones are not linear, are very spread open, very few invisible walls, offer many paths to move around the zone and offer sensable barriers and transitions between the zones.
I find it pretty obvious when wandering around most of the maps that I am essentially wandering through a big, rectangular, walled off area. Whenever I pop world map to fast travel (on the odd occassion I don't Heart of the Mist it up), that sense of parcelled off zones is further enforced.
As for it being non linear... Well I could wander around in a haphazard way within the confines of any games maps, but the hearts are guided through the map and they for the main part reveal a quite blatant and highly structured "flow". Am I saying every other game does it better? Nope.
With regards to "few" invisible walls, well it really depends on what you are used to, but there is a great deal of impassable terrain within each map. Your character has issues getting up gradients which Stephen Hawking could probably manage.
The barriers between zones, well yes they are incredible "sensible", but they also seem very OTT as well.
You feel differently, great. Regardless as to the underlying mechanics, peoples subjective feelings are different. You happen to think it feels very open and non linear, and from time to time it feels the same way to me. But for a great deal of the time that simply isn't the case. That doesn't mean I think you are wrong, it's just that in my opinion the mechanics don't promote that feeling in me. Such is life. But don't assume that I haven't played the game extensively just because my view on the subject differs from yours.
Look from my perspective it really isn't a big deal as (I said before) I wasn't looking to this game to provide a big old world feeling. But it is quite clear that the physical features within the world map which surround the zones look pretty darn unatural. Some have zero issue with it, some notice it.
If people are using it as a major deal in order to bash the game then, well that's odd. If though people are coming out and trying to say it looks natural, it couldn't have been done better, or that anyone who even picks up on it is nitpicking and some kind of "hater", well then they are also wrong.
There are numerous mechanical/gameplay reasons to justify exactly why ANET have done it this way. There is also the simple, subjective "it feels like a game world to me and the map doesn't effect that" argument. All of them are legitimate. But some of the ones we have seen in this thread are terribad. Planets are spherical, my house is square, maps are drawn on square paper, people confusing grid line sections with physical features. You really could not make it up.
While I agree with a lot of what youre saying, we also have to keep something in mind: MMOs just arent what they used to be, and theyre not built for the same crowd.
Perfect example, since you mentioned it: Hearts.
The hearts didnt even exist until late in development. They were added in because of things like people whining that they have no idea where to go, what to do, etc. Even with the addition of hearts, as well as vistas and POIs VERY clearly marked on maps, I still constantly see people asking "where do i go for X level" "OMG this Vista / POI is so hard, how do you get it" (after spending a whopping 30 seconds trying to figure it out), etc. Hell, you even get things from new players like "Im at this Vista thing on the map but I dont see anything. How do I use it". It simply never even occured to them to pan their camera up to see it.
Could you imagine sticking those people into maps that werent simplified by making them squares? Just think of your average person nowadays IRL. Ask someone for directions to somewhere and they likely dont have the slightest clue without looking it up. Im surprised more of them dont get lost int heir own neighborhoods.... though sadly some do. I actually know someone who couldnt find her own house, and she lives in a gated community which consists of a whole 2 streets. She had to call her mom. She is about 35 years old. Its pathetic, i know.
Some of the things they did work for them, because it caters to making things easier for many, which brings in masses of players. For Anet and the overall playerbase its a good thing because it means more sales and more players.
For those looking for a "harder" experience or more immersion / realism in their environment, its a bad thing.
While I agree with a lot of what youre saying, we also have to keep something in mind: MMOs just arent what they used to be, and theyre not built for the same crowd.
Perfect example, since you mentioned it: Hearts.
The hearts didnt even exist until late in development. They were added in because of things like people whining that they have no idea where to go, what to do, etc. Even with the addition of hearts, as well as vistas and POIs VERY clearly marked on maps, I still constantly see people asking "where do i go for X level" "OMG this Vista / POI is so hard, how do you get it" (after spending a whopping 30 seconds trying to figure it out), etc. Hell, you even get things from new players like "Im at this Vista thing on the map but I dont see anything. How do I use it". It simply never even occured to them to pan their camera up to see it.
Could you imagine sticking those people into maps that werent simplified by making them squares? Just think of your average person nowadays IRL. Ask someone for directions to somewhere and they likely dont have the slightest clue without looking it up. Im surprised more of them dont get lost int heir own neighborhoods.... though sadly some do. I actually know someone who couldnt find her own house, and she lives in a gated community which consists of a whole 2 streets. She had to call her mom. She is about 35 years old. Its pathetic, i know.
Some of the things they did work for them, because it caters to making things easier for many, which brings in masses of players. For Anet and the overall playerbase its a good thing because it means more sales and more players.
For those looking for a "harder" experience or more immersion / realism in their environment, its a bad thing.
They could have also made an extensive interactive tutorial since what they are trying to teach isn't precisely rocket science, but they went with heart quests instead:/.
While I agree with a lot of what youre saying, we also have to keep something in mind: MMOs just arent what they used to be, and theyre not built for the same crowd.
Perfect example, since you mentioned it: Hearts.
The hearts didnt even exist until late in development. They were added in because of things like people whining that they have no idea where to go, what to do, etc. Even with the addition of hearts, as well as vistas and POIs VERY clearly marked on maps, I still constantly see people asking "where do i go for X level" "OMG this Vista / POI is so hard, how do you get it" (after spending a whopping 30 seconds trying to figure it out), etc. Hell, you even get things from new players like "Im at this Vista thing on the map but I dont see anything. How do I use it". It simply never even occured to them to pan their camera up to see it.
Could you imagine sticking those people into maps that werent simplified by making them squares? Just think of your average person nowadays IRL. Ask someone for directions to somewhere and they likely dont have the slightest clue without looking it up. Im surprised more of them dont get lost int heir own neighborhoods.... though sadly some do. I actually know someone who couldnt find her own house, and she lives in a gated community which consists of a whole 2 streets. She had to call her mom. She is about 35 years old. Its pathetic, i know.
Some of the things they did work for them, because it caters to making things easier for many, which brings in masses of players. For Anet and the overall playerbase its a good thing because it means more sales and more players.
For those looking for a "harder" experience or more immersion / realism in their environment, its a bad thing.
They could have also made an extensive interactive tutorial since what they are trying to teach isn't precisely rocket science, but they went with heart quests instead:/.
A tutorial wouldnt have helped the people im talking about. We're talking people who simply either lack the common sense or the desire to do something as simple as exploring around and looking for things suitable for your level range. Without some form of "quests" and stuff clearly marked on their map for them, theyre completely lost in the world. The same type of people who havent experienced any game pre-WoW, and who if they have ever tried a game that doesnt mark everything to do clearly with a big ! or ? believe that there couldnt possibly be anything to do there.
A tutorial wouldnt have helped the people im talking about. We're talking people who simply either lack the common sense or the desire to do something as simple as exploring around and looking for things suitable for your level range. Without some form of "quests" and stuff clearly marked on their map for them, theyre completely lost in the world. The same type of people who havent experienced any game pre-WoW, and who if they have ever tried a game that doesnt mark everything to do clearly with a big ! or ? believe that there couldnt possibly be anything to do there.
I call those the "fast food gamer generation". Everything needs to be handed to them. It's because of them that our MMORPGs nowadays are plagued with quest helpers and stuff like that, and that the games are actually designed to be that way so you can't just disable them.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I was looking at my map and noticed that many of the zones in GW2 are simply boxed-in rectangles. This seems kinda lame for a AAA MMO in 2012. More like something I would expect from an old NES game.
That is the baseline... sorta like easier to find everything.. you leave whats out of that rectangle thou around the edge there is circular land moutain hills most of the time you cant even go to the end of it.... Unless their is a path leading in the middle of the rectangle... What is kinda lame is that you didnt notice that and left that out all together... 0.o
While I agree with a lot of what youre saying, we also have to keep something in mind: MMOs just arent what they used to be, and theyre not built for the same crowd.
Perfect example, since you mentioned it: Hearts.
The hearts didnt even exist until late in development. They were added in because of things like people whining that they have no idea where to go, what to do, etc. Even with the addition of hearts, as well as vistas and POIs VERY clearly marked on maps, I still constantly see people asking "where do i go for X level" "OMG this Vista / POI is so hard, how do you get it" (after spending a whopping 30 seconds trying to figure it out), etc. Hell, you even get things from new players like "Im at this Vista thing on the map but I dont see anything. How do I use it". It simply never even occured to them to pan their camera up to see it.
Could you imagine sticking those people into maps that werent simplified by making them squares? Just think of your average person nowadays IRL. Ask someone for directions to somewhere and they likely dont have the slightest clue without looking it up. Im surprised more of them dont get lost int heir own neighborhoods.... though sadly some do. I actually know someone who couldnt find her own house, and she lives in a gated community which consists of a whole 2 streets. She had to call her mom. She is about 35 years old. Its pathetic, i know.
Some of the things they did work for them, because it caters to making things easier for many, which brings in masses of players. For Anet and the overall playerbase its a good thing because it means more sales and more players.
For those looking for a "harder" experience or more immersion / realism in their environment, its a bad thing.
They could have also made an extensive interactive tutorial since what they are trying to teach isn't precisely rocket science, but they went with heart quests instead:/.
A tutorial wouldnt have helped the people im talking about. We're talking people who simply either lack the common sense or the desire to do something as simple as exploring around and looking for things suitable for your level range. Without some form of "quests" and stuff clearly marked on their map for them, theyre completely lost in the world. The same type of people who havent experienced any game pre-WoW, and who if they have ever tried a game that doesnt mark everything to do clearly with a big ! or ? believe that there couldnt possibly be anything to do there.
You are trying to make GW2 look more complex than it really is. GW2 doesn't need tutorial before everything is self explanatory. One just needs to open the map and events are marked with big circles on your map. You will even see big arrows pointing to those events. To start chain events all you have to do is talk to the NPC with big circle over his head. And other NPC just run to you right in your face and offer you events. How hard is it to miss that?
Almost everyone explores because completion of maps gives good rewards and while doing that you come across these events marked on your map. POI, Vistas everything is shown on your maps. So GW2 maked sure to guide people so that they are not lost.
You are trying to make GW2 look more complex than it relly is. GW2 doesn't need tutorial before everything is self explanatory. One just needs to open the map and events are marked with big circles on your map. You will even see big arrows pointing to those events. To start chain events all you have to do is talk to the NPC with big circle over his head. And other NPC just run to you right in your face and offer you events. How hard is it to miss that?
Almost everyone explores because completion of maps gives good rewards and while doing that you come across these events marked on your map. POI, Vistas everything is shown on your maps. So GW2 maked sure to guide people so that they are not lost.
There is absolutely no need for tutorial in GW2.
yet every single day we see threads by people who don't understand basic concepts of the game and ingame I constantly see similar questions in map chat on the same topics.. you honestly are giving many gamers more credit than they deserve these days. I do agree no tutorial is needed though people should be able to figure this stuff out but alas that's obviously not the case.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You are trying to make GW2 look more complex than it relly is. GW2 doesn't need tutorial before everything is self explanatory. One just needs to open the map and events are marked with big circles on your map. You will even see big arrows pointing to those events. To start chain events all you have to do is talk to the NPC with big circle over his head. And other NPC just run to you right in your face and offer you events. How hard is it to miss that?
Almost everyone explores because completion of maps gives good rewards and while doing that you come across these events marked on your map. POI, Vistas everything is shown on your maps. So GW2 maked sure to guide people so that they are not lost.
There is absolutely no need for tutorial in GW2.
yet every single day we see threads by people who don't understand basic concepts of the game and ingame I constantly see similar questions in map chat on the same topics.. you honestly are giving many gamers more credit than they deserve these days. I do agree no tutorial is needed though people should be able to figure this stuff out but alas that's obviously not the case.
Yes i always give gamers credit and i believe that GW2 is very self explanatory and guides and explain players quite sufficently through maps and event markers etc. I don't know how much more can be done because there is hardly anythign left to explain.
Events, hearts, POI etc are all right there in front of your face thanks to the map and markers. However, i also believe that a lot of non MMO players are tryign to get into GW2 so problem is not that they are all ex WOW players but that they are new to MMO genre.
A tutorial wouldnt have helped the people im talking about. We're talking people who simply either lack the common sense or the desire to do something as simple as exploring around and looking for things suitable for your level range. Without some form of "quests" and stuff clearly marked on their map for them, theyre completely lost in the world. The same type of people who havent experienced any game pre-WoW, and who if they have ever tried a game that doesnt mark everything to do clearly with a big ! or ? believe that there couldnt possibly be anything to do there.
I call those the "fast food gamer generation". Everything needs to be handed to them. It's because of them that our MMORPGs nowadays are plagued with quest helpers and stuff like that, and that the games are actually designed to be that way so you can't just disable them.
Ehhh fan of fast food game like GW2 calling others fast food generation? In case you don't know or ignoring the fact that Mike O brian wants to beat WOW in sales and you can only do that if you make a MMO for masses and water it down so that anyone can get into it. You are confusing GW2 with some niche title like EVE. Take out the quests however 'helpers' are still there. it is a themepark MMO designed to sell millions after all.
Sorry, sorta on topic though brief here. Funny enough, as critical as I can be on the game and all, I never really thought about the fact the maps are all long rectangles. Its kinda funny how they decided to make it really feel that way. Its instanced, mind you, but they could of done a lot more to make the zones feel more like 'shaped' areas instead. Minor thing really and nothing I can see myself really sticking against the game, but its still kinda funny thinking about it.
While I agree with a lot of what youre saying, we also have to keep something in mind: MMOs just arent what they used to be, and theyre not built for the same crowd.
Perfect example, since you mentioned it: Hearts.
The hearts didnt even exist until late in development. They were added in because of things like people whining that they have no idea where to go, what to do, etc. Even with the addition of hearts, as well as vistas and POIs VERY clearly marked on maps, I still constantly see people asking "where do i go for X level" "OMG this Vista / POI is so hard, how do you get it" (after spending a whopping 30 seconds trying to figure it out), etc. Hell, you even get things from new players like "Im at this Vista thing on the map but I dont see anything. How do I use it". It simply never even occured to them to pan their camera up to see it.
Could you imagine sticking those people into maps that werent simplified by making them squares? Just think of your average person nowadays IRL. Ask someone for directions to somewhere and they likely dont have the slightest clue without looking it up. Im surprised more of them dont get lost int heir own neighborhoods.... though sadly some do. I actually know someone who couldnt find her own house, and she lives in a gated community which consists of a whole 2 streets. She had to call her mom. She is about 35 years old. Its pathetic, i know.
Some of the things they did work for them, because it caters to making things easier for many, which brings in masses of players. For Anet and the overall playerbase its a good thing because it means more sales and more players.
For those looking for a "harder" experience or more immersion / realism in their environment, its a bad thing.
They could have also made an extensive interactive tutorial since what they are trying to teach isn't precisely rocket science, but they went with heart quests instead:/.
A tutorial wouldnt have helped the people im talking about. We're talking people who simply either lack the common sense or the desire to do something as simple as exploring around and looking for things suitable for your level range. Without some form of "quests" and stuff clearly marked on their map for them, theyre completely lost in the world. The same type of people who havent experienced any game pre-WoW, and who if they have ever tried a game that doesnt mark everything to do clearly with a big ! or ? believe that there couldnt possibly be anything to do there.
You are trying to make GW2 look more complex than it really is. GW2 doesn't need tutorial before everything is self explanatory. One just needs to open the map and events are marked with big circles on your map. You will even see big arrows pointing to those events. To start chain events all you have to do is talk to the NPC with big circle over his head. And other NPC just run to you right in your face and offer you events. How hard is it to miss that?
Almost everyone explores because completion of maps gives good rewards and while doing that you come across these events marked on your map. POI, Vistas everything is shown on your maps. So GW2 maked sure to guide people so that they are not lost.
There is absolutely no need for tutorial in GW2.
Youre not getting it. Im not trying to make GW2 look complex at all. I personally dont think it was.. But I also have a high IQ, and realize also that what is simple to some of us, is very complex to some. As sad as it is, the fact that people couldnt figure out where to go is one of the main reasons they added hearts. Just look at how many people jump into a game like EVE and then quit because the game is "too hard" to figure out.
I see people ask some of the things they ask in games and I think "You have got to be kidding me. Are people really that stupid?". Yes they are sometimes.
I didnt need a tutorial, and I agree it's a very easy game to figure out. But maybe you missed all of the crying about the fact that there isn't a built in tutorial when GW2 launched. That was another one of those moments where I was just like "Really? You're that stupid?".
Its a very simple game, but I think you're also giving a huge portion of players a lot more credit than you should. I even have a RL friend that my brother and I play with on our TS who gives both of us a ton of those "You've got to be kidding" moments, even in GW2. He has been playing MMOs with us for a few years and still has trouble with some pretty common sense stuff. We mess with him all the time because of it.
Not everyone explores like you think. They dont actually explore. Some do, but there are more of a 2nd group of people. They just run from point A to point B clearly marked on the map, then come on the forums and complain that there is no exploration and everything is marked on the map because they didnt bother to do any real exploring for themselves. The best part about it though is seeing some of those same people who complained about things not being marked on the map for them in beta, coming back after launch and complaining that now everything is marked on the map.
You are trying to make GW2 look more complex than it relly is. GW2 doesn't need tutorial before everything is self explanatory. One just needs to open the map and events are marked with big circles on your map. You will even see big arrows pointing to those events. To start chain events all you have to do is talk to the NPC with big circle over his head. And other NPC just run to you right in your face and offer you events. How hard is it to miss that?
Almost everyone explores because completion of maps gives good rewards and while doing that you come across these events marked on your map. POI, Vistas everything is shown on your maps. So GW2 maked sure to guide people so that they are not lost.
There is absolutely no need for tutorial in GW2.
yet every single day we see threads by people who don't understand basic concepts of the game and ingame I constantly see similar questions in map chat on the same topics.. you honestly are giving many gamers more credit than they deserve these days. I do agree no tutorial is needed though people should be able to figure this stuff out but alas that's obviously not the case.
Yes i always give gamers credit and i believe that GW2 is very self explanatory and guides and explain players quite sufficently through maps and event markers etc. I don't know how much more can be done because there is hardly anythign left to explain.
Events, hearts, POI etc are all right there in front of your face thanks to the map and markers. However, i also believe that a lot of non MMO players are tryign to get into GW2 so problem is not that they are all ex WOW players but that they are new to MMO genre.
I think youre still continuing to completely overlook the part where it was said they added some of those things in, like hearts, BECAUSE people couldnt figure out where to go. The hearts were added in pretty close to launch.
Yes DEs show up on your map, but most of them only when you're fairly close to them. Hearts work the same way, except hearts are always there, a DE might not always be there. Without the hearts guiding people to an area and basically saying "Hey there is stuff to do around this spot. You should stick around here" a lot of people who belong to the whole "I need to have my hand held and be guided everywhere" group complained they didnt know where to go and couldnt find anything to do.
I take it you didnt follow the game very closely before launch or you would be aware of it.
While I agree with a lot of what youre saying, we also have to keep something in mind: MMOs just arent what they used to be, and theyre not built for the same crowd.
Perfect example, since you mentioned it: Hearts.
The hearts didnt even exist until late in development. They were added in because of things like people whining that they have no idea where to go, what to do, etc. Even with the addition of hearts, as well as vistas and POIs VERY clearly marked on maps, I still constantly see people asking "where do i go for X level" "OMG this Vista / POI is so hard, how do you get it" (after spending a whopping 30 seconds trying to figure it out), etc. Hell, you even get things from new players like "Im at this Vista thing on the map but I dont see anything. How do I use it". It simply never even occured to them to pan their camera up to see it.
Could you imagine sticking those people into maps that werent simplified by making them squares? Just think of your average person nowadays IRL. Ask someone for directions to somewhere and they likely dont have the slightest clue without looking it up. Im surprised more of them dont get lost int heir own neighborhoods.... though sadly some do. I actually know someone who couldnt find her own house, and she lives in a gated community which consists of a whole 2 streets. She had to call her mom. She is about 35 years old. Its pathetic, i know.
Some of the things they did work for them, because it caters to making things easier for many, which brings in masses of players. For Anet and the overall playerbase its a good thing because it means more sales and more players.
For those looking for a "harder" experience or more immersion / realism in their environment, its a bad thing.
They could have also made an extensive interactive tutorial since what they are trying to teach isn't precisely rocket science, but they went with heart quests instead:/.
A tutorial wouldnt have helped the people im talking about. We're talking people who simply either lack the common sense or the desire to do something as simple as exploring around and looking for things suitable for your level range. Without some form of "quests" and stuff clearly marked on their map for them, theyre completely lost in the world. The same type of people who havent experienced any game pre-WoW, and who if they have ever tried a game that doesnt mark everything to do clearly with a big ! or ? believe that there couldnt possibly be anything to do there.
You are trying to make GW2 look more complex than it really is. GW2 doesn't need tutorial before everything is self explanatory. One just needs to open the map and events are marked with big circles on your map. You will even see big arrows pointing to those events. To start chain events all you have to do is talk to the NPC with big circle over his head. And other NPC just run to you right in your face and offer you events. How hard is it to miss that?
Almost everyone explores because completion of maps gives good rewards and while doing that you come across these events marked on your map. POI, Vistas everything is shown on your maps. So GW2 maked sure to guide people so that they are not lost.
There is absolutely no need for tutorial in GW2.
Youre not getting it. Im not trying to make GW2 look complex at all. I personally dont think it was.. But I also have a high IQ, and realize also that what is simple to some of us, is very complex to some. As sad as it is, the fact that people couldnt figure out where to go is one of the main reasons they added hearts. Just look at how many people jump into a game like EVE and then quit because the game is "too hard" to figure out.
I see people ask some of the things they ask in games and I think "You have got to be kidding me. Are people really that stupid?". Yes they are sometimes.
I didnt need a tutorial, and I agree it's a very easy game to figure out. But maybe you missed all of the crying about the fact that there isn't a built in tutorial when GW2 launched. That was another one of those moments where I was just like "Really? You're that stupid?".
Its a very simple game, but I think you're also giving a huge portion of players a lot more credit than you should. I even have a RL friend that my brother and I play with on our TS who gives both of us a ton of those "You've got to be kidding" moments, even in GW2. He has been playing MMOs with us for a few years and still has trouble with some pretty common sense stuff. We mess with him all the time because of it.
Not everyone explores like you think. They dont actually explore. Some do, but there are more of a 2nd group of people. They just run from point A to point B clearly marked on the map, then come on the forums and complain that there is no exploration and everything is marked on the map because they didnt bother to do any real exploring for themselves. The best part about it though is seeing some of those same people who complained about things not being marked on the map for them in beta, coming back after launch and complaining that now everything is marked on the map.
I agree. But just remember, having a high IQ and common sense do not always go together. Take most Mensans I have met - they lack common sense but always tell people how smart they are.
I agree. But just remember, having a high IQ and common sense do not always go together. Take most Mensans I have met - they lack common sense but always tell people how smart they are.
Mensans lol - what a farce mensa has become - give us money and take this online test here's your membership. Lol
I can't tell you how many engineers I've interviewed who had "Mensa member" on their resumes and they turned out to be complete tools.
another tip - a sign of true intelligence is realizing how little you know.
So true - after my Ph.D. defense I thought, I don't know it all how can this be. "The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know. -- Socrates"
I was looking at my map and noticed that many of the zones in GW2 are simply boxed-in rectangles. This seems kinda lame for a AAA MMO in 2012. More like something I would expect from an old NES game.
Show me any MMO that doesn't have the game space contained in rectangles. They all do. Whether the game is contained in a single box, (very rare, not even Vanilla WoW was a single box), a handful of large boxes, or each zone is contained in a box, they are all designed that way.
It's obvious looking at the map because the zones fit together edge to eadge, rather than being isolated pockets of a larger world. They don't look or feel rectangular when you are playing. The zones are huge and though the absolute boundary may be contained within a rectangular box, the geography hides that fact extremely well.
But isn't the whole problem as far as i can see, that GW2 came out with a map that show it like this. I have the feeling that a little more work with the map and especial what you see when you scroll in and out , could have gone a very long way to avoid this feeling of rectangularness. I agree the zones doesn't feel like rectangular when playing them. But the map simply feels like it doesn't do the job of hidding a mechanic that could have been hidden , namely that a zone is something place in a rectangular area.
I minor issue , but i would really have loved if the map had hidden this better.
The world map originally didn't have the obvious rectangular borders. It seems that effect was added so that players could more easily see where each zone was on the map. Even with the map as it is now, It's not uncommon to see a Skill Point Challenge or some other PoI on the map and think it's with in the current zone, rather than the next zone over.
Maybe a toggle for red, dash line border demarkation would have been better? So that when toggleed off there would be no way to clearly determine the expanse of each zone on the map? Or maybe even a border line demarcation that actually follows the contour lines of the explorable area of each zone, rather than the strait lines?
The most important thing is that it doesn't feel like the zones are boxy when you are in the game and playing.
Are we seriously complaining about zone shapes now?
Maybe they should have used a map of the USA and each zone is the shape of a state.
ill be honest for me unless a zone is a convex polytope i get very upset.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
In another thread someone asked atleast talk about something new instead of repeating the same no endgame etc etc things.
Well folk here the new topic "why are my maps rectangles"
Lets keep this new material coming.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Comments
Show me any MMO that doesn't have the game space contained in rectangles. They all do. Whether the game is contained in a single box, (very rare, not even Vanilla WoW was a single box), a handful of large boxes, or each zone is contained in a box, they are all designed that way.
It's obvious looking at the map because the zones fit together edge to eadge, rather than being isolated pockets of a larger world. They don't look or feel rectangular when you are playing. The zones are huge and though the absolute boundary may be contained within a rectangular box, the geography hides that fact extremely well.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
But isn't the whole problem as far as i can see, that GW2 came out with a map that show it like this. I have the feeling that a little more work with the map and especial what you see when you scroll in and out , could have gone a very long way to avoid this feeling of rectangularness. I agree the zones doesn't feel like rectangular when playing them. But the map simply feels like it doesn't do the job of hidding a mechanic that could have been hidden , namely that a zone is something place in a rectangular area.
I minor issue , but i would really have loved if the map had hidden this better.
You know what's fun about chaos? I do, but I won't tell.
I find it pretty obvious when wandering around most of the maps that I am essentially wandering through a big, rectangular, walled off area. Whenever I pop world map to fast travel (on the odd occassion I don't Heart of the Mist it up), that sense of parcelled off zones is further enforced.
As for it being non linear... Well I could wander around in a haphazard way within the confines of any games maps, but the hearts are guided through the map and they for the main part reveal a quite blatant and highly structured "flow". Am I saying every other game does it better? Nope.
With regards to "few" invisible walls, well it really depends on what you are used to, but there is a great deal of impassable terrain within each map. Your character has issues getting up gradients which Stephen Hawking could probably manage.
The barriers between zones, well yes they are incredible "sensible", but they also seem very OTT as well.
You feel differently, great. Regardless as to the underlying mechanics, peoples subjective feelings are different. You happen to think it feels very open and non linear, and from time to time it feels the same way to me. But for a great deal of the time that simply isn't the case. That doesn't mean I think you are wrong, it's just that in my opinion the mechanics don't promote that feeling in me. Such is life. But don't assume that I haven't played the game extensively just because my view on the subject differs from yours.
Look from my perspective it really isn't a big deal as (I said before) I wasn't looking to this game to provide a big old world feeling. But it is quite clear that the physical features within the world map which surround the zones look pretty darn unatural. Some have zero issue with it, some notice it.
If people are using it as a major deal in order to bash the game then, well that's odd. If though people are coming out and trying to say it looks natural, it couldn't have been done better, or that anyone who even picks up on it is nitpicking and some kind of "hater", well then they are also wrong.
There are numerous mechanical/gameplay reasons to justify exactly why ANET have done it this way. There is also the simple, subjective "it feels like a game world to me and the map doesn't effect that" argument. All of them are legitimate. But some of the ones we have seen in this thread are terribad. Planets are spherical, my house is square, maps are drawn on square paper, people confusing grid line sections with physical features. You really could not make it up.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
While I agree with a lot of what youre saying, we also have to keep something in mind: MMOs just arent what they used to be, and theyre not built for the same crowd.
Perfect example, since you mentioned it: Hearts.
The hearts didnt even exist until late in development. They were added in because of things like people whining that they have no idea where to go, what to do, etc. Even with the addition of hearts, as well as vistas and POIs VERY clearly marked on maps, I still constantly see people asking "where do i go for X level" "OMG this Vista / POI is so hard, how do you get it" (after spending a whopping 30 seconds trying to figure it out), etc. Hell, you even get things from new players like "Im at this Vista thing on the map but I dont see anything. How do I use it". It simply never even occured to them to pan their camera up to see it.
Could you imagine sticking those people into maps that werent simplified by making them squares? Just think of your average person nowadays IRL. Ask someone for directions to somewhere and they likely dont have the slightest clue without looking it up. Im surprised more of them dont get lost int heir own neighborhoods.... though sadly some do. I actually know someone who couldnt find her own house, and she lives in a gated community which consists of a whole 2 streets. She had to call her mom. She is about 35 years old. Its pathetic, i know.
Some of the things they did work for them, because it caters to making things easier for many, which brings in masses of players. For Anet and the overall playerbase its a good thing because it means more sales and more players.
For those looking for a "harder" experience or more immersion / realism in their environment, its a bad thing.
They could have also made an extensive interactive tutorial since what they are trying to teach isn't precisely rocket science, but they went with heart quests instead:/.
A tutorial wouldnt have helped the people im talking about. We're talking people who simply either lack the common sense or the desire to do something as simple as exploring around and looking for things suitable for your level range. Without some form of "quests" and stuff clearly marked on their map for them, theyre completely lost in the world. The same type of people who havent experienced any game pre-WoW, and who if they have ever tried a game that doesnt mark everything to do clearly with a big ! or ? believe that there couldnt possibly be anything to do there.
I call those the "fast food gamer generation". Everything needs to be handed to them. It's because of them that our MMORPGs nowadays are plagued with quest helpers and stuff like that, and that the games are actually designed to be that way so you can't just disable them.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
That is the baseline... sorta like easier to find everything.. you leave whats out of that rectangle thou around the edge there is circular land moutain hills most of the time you cant even go to the end of it.... Unless their is a path leading in the middle of the rectangle... What is kinda lame is that you didnt notice that and left that out all together... 0.o
You are trying to make GW2 look more complex than it really is. GW2 doesn't need tutorial before everything is self explanatory. One just needs to open the map and events are marked with big circles on your map. You will even see big arrows pointing to those events. To start chain events all you have to do is talk to the NPC with big circle over his head. And other NPC just run to you right in your face and offer you events. How hard is it to miss that?
Almost everyone explores because completion of maps gives good rewards and while doing that you come across these events marked on your map. POI, Vistas everything is shown on your maps. So GW2 maked sure to guide people so that they are not lost.
There is absolutely no need for tutorial in GW2.
yet every single day we see threads by people who don't understand basic concepts of the game and ingame I constantly see similar questions in map chat on the same topics.. you honestly are giving many gamers more credit than they deserve these days. I do agree no tutorial is needed though people should be able to figure this stuff out but alas that's obviously not the case.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Yes i always give gamers credit and i believe that GW2 is very self explanatory and guides and explain players quite sufficently through maps and event markers etc. I don't know how much more can be done because there is hardly anythign left to explain.
Events, hearts, POI etc are all right there in front of your face thanks to the map and markers. However, i also believe that a lot of non MMO players are tryign to get into GW2 so problem is not that they are all ex WOW players but that they are new to MMO genre.
Ehhh fan of fast food game like GW2 calling others fast food generation? In case you don't know or ignoring the fact that Mike O brian wants to beat WOW in sales and you can only do that if you make a MMO for masses and water it down so that anyone can get into it. You are confusing GW2 with some niche title like EVE. Take out the quests however 'helpers' are still there. it is a themepark MMO designed to sell millions after all.
Youre not getting it. Im not trying to make GW2 look complex at all. I personally dont think it was.. But I also have a high IQ, and realize also that what is simple to some of us, is very complex to some. As sad as it is, the fact that people couldnt figure out where to go is one of the main reasons they added hearts. Just look at how many people jump into a game like EVE and then quit because the game is "too hard" to figure out.
I see people ask some of the things they ask in games and I think "You have got to be kidding me. Are people really that stupid?". Yes they are sometimes.
I didnt need a tutorial, and I agree it's a very easy game to figure out. But maybe you missed all of the crying about the fact that there isn't a built in tutorial when GW2 launched. That was another one of those moments where I was just like "Really? You're that stupid?".
Its a very simple game, but I think you're also giving a huge portion of players a lot more credit than you should. I even have a RL friend that my brother and I play with on our TS who gives both of us a ton of those "You've got to be kidding" moments, even in GW2. He has been playing MMOs with us for a few years and still has trouble with some pretty common sense stuff. We mess with him all the time because of it.
Not everyone explores like you think. They dont actually explore. Some do, but there are more of a 2nd group of people. They just run from point A to point B clearly marked on the map, then come on the forums and complain that there is no exploration and everything is marked on the map because they didnt bother to do any real exploring for themselves. The best part about it though is seeing some of those same people who complained about things not being marked on the map for them in beta, coming back after launch and complaining that now everything is marked on the map.
I think youre still continuing to completely overlook the part where it was said they added some of those things in, like hearts, BECAUSE people couldnt figure out where to go. The hearts were added in pretty close to launch.
Yes DEs show up on your map, but most of them only when you're fairly close to them. Hearts work the same way, except hearts are always there, a DE might not always be there. Without the hearts guiding people to an area and basically saying "Hey there is stuff to do around this spot. You should stick around here" a lot of people who belong to the whole "I need to have my hand held and be guided everywhere" group complained they didnt know where to go and couldnt find anything to do.
I take it you didnt follow the game very closely before launch or you would be aware of it.
I agree. But just remember, having a high IQ and common sense do not always go together. Take most Mensans I have met - they lack common sense but always tell people how smart they are.
So true - after my Ph.D. defense I thought, I don't know it all how can this be. "The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know. -- Socrates"
The world map originally didn't have the obvious rectangular borders. It seems that effect was added so that players could more easily see where each zone was on the map. Even with the map as it is now, It's not uncommon to see a Skill Point Challenge or some other PoI on the map and think it's with in the current zone, rather than the next zone over.
Maybe a toggle for red, dash line border demarkation would have been better? So that when toggleed off there would be no way to clearly determine the expanse of each zone on the map? Or maybe even a border line demarcation that actually follows the contour lines of the explorable area of each zone, rather than the strait lines?
The most important thing is that it doesn't feel like the zones are boxy when you are in the game and playing.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Are we seriously complaining about zone shapes now?
Maybe they should have used a map of the USA and each zone is the shape of a state.
ill be honest for me unless a zone is a convex polytope i get very upset.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
In another thread someone asked atleast talk about something new instead of repeating the same no endgame etc etc things.
Well folk here the new topic "why are my maps rectangles"
Lets keep this new material coming.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-