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Biowares f2p model, bringing segregation back!

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Comments

  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon

    I just love to see people whining that you don't get everything for F2P; Something for nothing great concept but then reality kicks in. Is this thread really necessary.

    I think everyone supporting F2P should come work for me for free.

    I will trhrow in a  coffee machine , with free water. Bland but it will keep you alive , but then you will have a choice of 20 flavoursome drinks which will all cost.

    While you are working for me for free feel free to buy a drink. Thats if you have any money to buy it with !!!!

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Isane

    I just love to see people whining that you don't get everything for F2P; Something for nothing great concept but then reality kicks in. Is this thread really necessary.

    I think everyone supporting F2P should come work for me for free.

    I will trhrow in a  coffee machine , with free water. Bland but it will keep you alive , but then you will have a choice of 20 flavoursome drinks which will all cost.

    While you are working for me for free feel free to buy a drink. Thats if you have any money to buy it with !!!!

    Then you dont call it F2P.

    Of all the games that "converted" only Aion and LOTRO/DDO can be called F2P, others are just expanded free trials.

  • Insane666Insane666 gdanskPosts: 66Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
    Originally posted by william0532

    So I was looking at their f2p model and really had to laugh. According to their differences between subs and f2p players chart http://www.swtor.com/free/features you can see that their will be two distinct classes of players. The freemium players won't be able to compete in pvp(with one warzone a day limit you will never have warhero gear), meaning you will be garbage in pvp. "Thats ok, I'm a raider" you say? Well, you are not allowed to do any raids.

    This means that subscription players will not let you into their guild, and why should they, you would be utterly worthless. So basically their new model is going to create a population of bums floating around the galaxy? Maybe they will allow pan handling at starports for cartel coins?

    if I come off as trashing free to play, players, or subscription players, I really am not trying to accomplish that. I'm just pointing out the segregation in community that this system will create.

     

    Did I mention that free players have limited auction house usuge? Congratulations on being broke.(see pan handling comment above)

    Limited travel options? Awesome, so maybe TOR will be the first game to have hitchhiking? ###, gas, or grass?

    I usually don't argue for one system or another and usually judge game's by whether or not they are fun; However I'm seriously confused by this model, wouldn't it be better to just announce that free to play is instead a free trial in an attempt to move boxs instead of coming up with this half witted attempt? Both would rake in some needed cash, but the system they are implementing just seems horrible. Am I missing something?

    Yes you are missing, free is not free.

    In fact many "Free" games make more money than when they were subscription. That is why they when "Free" to begin with.

    To answer your more specific questions. You will probably get limited access to the things you discribe-- unless you pay for it. If you want to have more access to PVP then you will have to pay. If you want premium classes then you will have to pay. 

    A subscription is when you pay a single price and get what you pay for .

    Free to play is when you get nickel and dimed by the company until you realize you spent more money on "Free" than you would have with a subscription.

    But hey, Free to play is the wave of the future... Yay?

     

    youre mistaken,,

     

    there are true f2p games, that give you 100% or close access to the games content for free,,, ussually the main incentive to pay is trough lower xp/drop rates for f2p players, lately limitting f2p players access to global chat channels is in fashion ( my favorite examples would be Fallen Earth and Aion,  but theres more )

    on the other hand we got a "freemium" model wich youve mistaken for real f2p: you get only partial access to games content w.o either subscribing or buying out parts of content from the ingame shop ( ie. Age of Conan, loads of others, and now propably the worst freemium model implementation to date: swfailtor )

     

    freemium sucks, f2p rocks

    Games previously played: AO, AoC, Aion, AoW, Eve, SWTor, WaR, STO, TSW, DCUO, FE, BP, ProjectEntropia, FootballSuperstars!

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    In a nutshell, a true FTP system has you buying perks to improve your toon, Freeium (unless you subscribe) has you paying to just barely catch up. Worst case scenario, you find ot that your FTP is actually Freemium, and your Freemium has just opened a cash shop which is P2W.
  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member

    Its not going f2p.

    fp2 is a buzzword that has become known to reflect any game that offers a period of time where paying is optional.

    I see f2p as games that are free from lv1 to max with an item mall to support itself.

    I see most of these p2p to f2p games as pay per content OR an extremely generous free trial.  Aion and L2 are the only games i can think of that have actually gone f2p from a p2p state.

    This game still has a sub and still heavily restricts free access.  its still a p2p game, you will need to pay to play it at some point.

     

    this mmorpg community seems extremely receptive to marketing bs and seems to bite on a select few buzzwords blindly, not sure what makes everyone so gullible here, however its got to be a fantastic time to be in marketing for a game developer.

  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nightfallrob
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    At least the F2P will allow you to pretend it is Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 like they said it was prior to launch. Drop in play the stories and drop back out.

     

    That is if they let you complete the story quests on F2P.

    The problem with this is that you can't complete the story quests without completing heroics and flashpoints or participating in PvP. The storyline quests don't pay out enough XP to level to the point you can defeat the bosses on the way, and they aren't saying whether or not the zone side quests will be available. So it looks like you'll have to pay to get the side quests, heoric missions, and flashpoints if you want to play the story all the way through. While free to play is never truly free, it's usually not quite such a blatant bait-and-switch operation as this will be. Once again, EA demonstrates how little they think of their customers.

     

    This is simply NOT true. I have leveled 3 characters to 50. Only one of those did anything beyond the storyline quests and that was because I grouped with that character whereas I almost never grouped with the others. I am currently leveling up 5 more characters that have NEVER done any Flashpoints or PvP or Space. They are all level 45 to 32 and they are all 2 to 3 levels ABOVE the quests I am doing. If you think you have to do those things, you have done something horribly wrong.

    As to the subject at hand, f2p is NOT free. Seems that this thread is realising that but some want everything for "free". There is not a single f2p title out there that allows you to get everything for free...it just whille not ever happen.

     

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    Originally posted by Gruug
    Originally posted by nightfallrob

    The problem with this is that you can't complete the story quests without completing heroics and flashpoints or participating in PvP. The storyline quests don't pay out enough XP to level to the point you can defeat the bosses on the way, and they aren't saying whether or not the zone side quests will be available. 

    This is simply NOT true.

    This. My Imperial Agent never done a flashpoint, I played it completely solo since my Bounty Hunter was exclusively duo with a friend. I had to skip a few planet quests even, or I'd be a level or two above the content. That's without the Legacy XP bonus, even.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,722Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Draron
    Originally posted by Gruug
    Originally posted by nightfallrob

    The problem with this is that you can't complete the story quests without completing heroics and flashpoints or participating in PvP. The storyline quests don't pay out enough XP to level to the point you can defeat the bosses on the way, and they aren't saying whether or not the zone side quests will be available. 

    This is simply NOT true.

    This. My Imperial Agent never done a flashpoint, I played it completely solo since my Bounty Hunter was exclusively duo with a friend. I had to skip a few planet quests even, or I'd be a level or two above the content. That's without the Legacy XP bonus, even.

    This +1. No flashpoint, no pvp, simple levelling fun only by doing the story. I made some heroics here and there just for the fun, but even those I made with my companion. Fully solo experience. That's why I keep saying ToR is a singleplayer game to me :)

    (I like to skip the first 1-2 months of frenzy at start, so when I played, my buddies were at 50 or already left, just as the majority of the players. Actually I rarely saw more than 10 people online ever. Again, singleplayer game - sorry MikeB :) )

  • DrolkinDrolkin Palio, NBPosts: 242Member
    I wouldn't play TOR for free or pay for it, why bother?  It's done.
  • MoulsMouls ububuaPosts: 90Member

    Can you unlock the raids and warzone limit in CS? for a resonable price?

    if this the case nothing wrong whatever if you are forced to sub to use those features f2p is just a extended trial.

  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    Originally posted by Mouls

    Can you unlock the raids and warzone limit in CS? for a resonable price?

    if this the case nothing wrong whatever if you are forced to sub to use those features f2p is just a extended trial.

    They confirmed you can unlock extra WZ's and OP's in the cash shop. No idea on pricing, though.

    Most P2P going F2P these days just mean an extended trial, yea.

    There was an article on Massively not too long ago on how Bioware is making a bad decision giving the best of it's game for free, and I gotta agree - that's a lot of content for nothing.

  • SeariasSearias Edmonton, ABPosts: 712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zhylaw

    Are you channeling the spirit of segregation with this post?

     

    F2P is sopposed to mean you get to play the entire game...for free. But you will be unable to enjoy certain conviences, new content or vanity type stuff without either paying for it or subscribing depending on whether the game has a secondary sub model or just a cash shop.

     

    Even ripoff F2P games that try to squeeeze you into using the shop do so by making it harder and harder to level or stay competitve without the use of the shop, but it is still techinically possible to do so.

     

    DDO lets f2p players enjoy the entire game, you buy new modules as desired. But if your really dedicated you can even earn the points to buy them without money.

     

    Bioware is literally slicing off hunks of the game and telling F2P people that cant touch it, period; without paying for the right.

     

    This is not F2P, this is Freemium, and an excellent example of how how NOT to implement it at that.

    I really don't get it giving people the ability to play the game without having to pay for anything doesn't make sense at all. How are the developers supposed to make money that way? The way SWTOR is doing F2P is fine, you get to play content from 1 to 50 for free and you can pay few dollars here and there to increase the amount of Warzones and Dungeons you get to play or sub for the game to lift all the restrictions.

    I think developers should just get rid of the F2P model and just go back the the P2P (Subscription model) again, I believe this should be the way MMOs are supposed to be played as, $15 a month is nothing in today's standard.

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  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    Originally posted by Searias

    I think developers should just get rid of the F2P model and just go back the the P2P (Subscription model) again, I believe this should be the way MMOs are supposed to be played as, $15 a month is nothing in today's standard.

    I agree with this completely. But you just opened up a can of worms there. Hope you have your flameshield ready.

    IMO the unlimited trial to a certain level would've been the best way to go like WoW does (and what SWTOR does currently). Bioware should have just ran a dev team that was sustainable off the subs they can hold and cater to them. I can only think a lot of dev time is being missed out on while making the transition to F2P.

  • SeariasSearias Edmonton, ABPosts: 712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Draron
    Originally posted by Searias

    I think developers should just get rid of the F2P model and just go back the the P2P (Subscription model) again, I believe this should be the way MMOs are supposed to be played as, $15 a month is nothing in today's standard.

    I agree with this completely. But you just opened up a can of worms there. Hope you have your flameshield ready.

    Hehe, what I am trying to say is that all these complains about what to get and what not to get etc, happens because of the F2P model. If we only had the P2P model where everyone gets the same treatment, the world of MMOs would be a better place and developers can actually focus on spending their time on actually developing content for the games we love rather than wasting time on creating items for the cashshops and coming up with ways for people to spend money them :P.

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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,931Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Indrome

    Oh right, THAT was why I initially dropped my plan to go back to this cesspool of "featurelessness" again when F2P hits.

    Limiting a game that had a very limited breadth of features to begin with even more just seems a little too obviously money-grabbing to me. I can't really in good conscience support something like this.

    Too bad, really. I quite enjoyed the game while it "lasted". I miss my sith assassin tank.

    I don't get this.  I honestly don't.

     

    They are giving away free access to the best part of their game.  It's basically a free trial to the release level cap.  That's all I expect from a F2P MMO and something that the much lauded LOTRO F2P system doesn't provide without a LOT of grinding.

     

    Now if SWTOR ends up requiring grinding to reach the level cap unless you buy EXP potions in the store, then yes I will agree.  But it will still be as bad as the LOTRO model if all you want to do is level characters.

     

     

  • Random_mageRandom_mage Puyallup, WAPosts: 1,093Member Uncommon
    Sad really.. Just a money grab for something they cant charge for.. it really sucks for those that didnt raid or do much pvp..

    Currently playing Real Life..

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  • eddieg50eddieg50 Tolland, CTPosts: 1,614Member Uncommon
       Looks like a good option, F2P should be enough to interest you in the game, depending on how much you play will determine wether you stick with F2P and buy a few premiums items or sub
  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by Indrome

    Oh right, THAT was why I initially dropped my plan to go back to this cesspool of "featurelessness" again when F2P hits.

    Limiting a game that had a very limited breadth of features to begin with even more just seems a little too obviously money-grabbing to me. I can't really in good conscience support something like this.

    Too bad, really. I quite enjoyed the game while it "lasted". I miss my sith assassin tank.

    I don't get this.  I honestly don't.

     

    They are giving away free access to the best part of their game.  It's basically a free trial to the release level cap.  That's all I expect from a F2P MMO and something that the much lauded LOTRO F2P system doesn't provide without a LOT of grinding.

     

    Now if SWTOR ends up requiring grinding to reach the level cap unless you buy EXP potions in the store, then yes I will agree.  But it will still be as bad as the LOTRO model if all you want to do is level characters.

     

     

    People bitch and moan about the SoE model too, people dont understand the whole 'well let you play 95% of the content for free but we would like you to sub to see the top 5% of it' mentality.

     

    SoE model and SWG model arent about nickel and diming, at all.  Theyll take your money if you want to give it, but its pretty obvious that the intent is for you to sub if you like the game.

     

    The Turbine model is much more nickel and dime, as you have to pay for almost all of the content (or grind the same boring shit over and over and over and over and over and over to unlock your next zone's quests...this is also designed to make you want to pay...you get drawn in with the concept of free points, but you quickly realize it just isnt worth it to grind em)

  • NasherUKNasherUK Secret cavePosts: 476Member Common

    The "F2P" option is just an extension of the current one, just with the level cap removed.  If you wan't to actually do anything at level 50 (the actual MMO parts, like Ops and pvp) you will still have to subscribe.

    Which is good tbh, because there will be no real change for current players. Subbing as before will still give you access to everything.

  • JobeArthurJobeArthur seattle, WAPosts: 38Member

    This is not all true. If its nothing more than an extended trial, then why the cash shop?

    Imo its not the extended trial as you call it that will hurt the game, its the cash shop. They are still counting on a player paying a sub for the main source of revenue, and sure there will be items for them to nickle and dime the FTPers, but i am willing to bet that majority items are going to be there to get even more money out of players paying a sub as the way most freemium games work. 

    The game sould go BTP with cash shop filled with boosters, legacy perks for cash but still grindable, skin jobs for armor weapons, and account options such as server transfers, or more char slots. Even a true unrestricted FTP like AION could be good, then they could create a variety of fluff items, and utility items.

    Freemium is designed to milk an already paying player base for even more. Sure you will get some cartel coins every month but it wont be enough, as its basically a dealer only giving you enough to get hooked on the product.

    Sooner or later depending on the failure or success of the conversion has, It will go PTW.

  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by JobeArthur

    This is not all true. If its nothing more than an extended trial, then why the cash shop?

    Imo its not the extended trial as you call it that will hurt the game, its the cash shop. They are still counting on a player paying a sub for the main source of revenue, and sure there will be items for them to nickle and dime the FTPers, but i am willing to bet that majority items are going to be there to get even more money out of players paying a sub as the way most freemium games work. 

    The game sould go BTP with cash shop filled with boosters, legacy perks for cash but still grindable, skin jobs for armor weapons, and account options such as server transfers, or more char slots. Even a true unrestricted FTP like AION could be good, then they could create a variety of fluff items, and utility items.

    Freemium is designed to milk an already paying player base for even more. Sure you will get some cartel coins every month but it wont be enough, as its basically a dealer only giving you enough to get hooked on the product.

    Sooner or later depending on the failure or success of the conversion has, It will go PTW.

    I think you are probably right.

    The FTP aspect is priarily an extended trial to 50. One has to ask, after over 2 million people of your core target market has already paid to try the game, who is it they are hoping to sell the game to?

    As you pointed out, a FTP player will have nearly no involvment with endgame. FTP players have laughably little access to Warzones, so they will just be canon fodder. They will have very limited access to Flashpoints, subbers will unikely want to group with them since FTP'ers will be so under-geared. FTP'ers have no access to Operations. (Further gimping their gear-progresion.)

    The only way to narrow the gear disparity for FTP'ers is to sell gear in the cash shop, which would make the game P2W.

    The FTP aspect of the relaunch is just a sideshow. The main event wlll be the cash shop. That cash shop's primary function will be to sell items not to the FTP'ers, but the subscribers themselves. It starts with vanity items, then lock boxes, then gear, then, etc., P2W.

    As greedy as that may sound, even that is not the primary reason for SWTOR's transition to Freemium. The main EA motivation for FTP is to be able to stop reporting on subscription numbers which ampers their stock price. The FTP move is to disguise the fact that they created another WAR.

    Again all my opinion, but does anyone think that a FTP player is going to either spend gobs of money or decide to subscribe?

    The endless trial to level 15 did not entice many new subscribers. The target market has already come and gone. If someone does play FTP because they don't want to spend $15 on a sub, why would they spend close to that to compete with subbers. What is it in the new Freemium sysytem whch encourages FTP and sub players to play together?

    As a side note of SWTOR already not following LOTRO's model of switching to freemium; apparently only players with an active subscription will be eligible for cartel coin sub rewards. In LOTRO, players who had an account whether or not they were actively subbed were eligible for coin rewards because LOTRO was looking to bring their ex-players back. SWTOR apparently is writting off thos 2 million plus pople who already played the game. Seems like a final cash grab to intimidate their current subbers to stay subbed.

    All in all the Freemium system seems like a final whimper from EA. Remember, even after the layoffs, EA said they needed the revenue equivalent of 500,000 players a month to break even. They also said they expect half of their revenue to come from the cash shop. That's $3,750,000 a month from the cash shop. If you use Zynga's rule of thumb that only 5% of FTP players purchase from the cash shop, and (on the very high side) assume FTP players will only spend about $10 a month, you would need 7,500,000 new ftp players and 250,000 subscribers to break even.

    The cash shop is going to be targeted at the subscribers, the FTP players are a tiny icing on the cake.

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Phoenix, AZPosts: 823Member Uncommon

    Their game, they get to set the rules. Plain and simple. If you don't like what they are offering for free and feel it's somehow wrong , don't play.  You have no right to complain about a free offering.  If you like it and want to experience the whole game pay the $15/mo , and then complain about the things you don't like. Honestly this such a childish discussion .

    Ah, the sense of entitlement some people feel. Nothing,absolutely nothing in life is free, It's all accompanied by a cost.  Learn that lesson folks.

    image
  • tiefighter25tiefighter25 Winchester, MAPosts: 937Member
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk

    Their game, they get to set the rules. Plain and simple. If you don't like what they are offering for free and feel it's somehow wrong , don't play.  You have no right to complain about a free offering.  If you like it and want to experience the whole game pay the $15/mo , and then complain about the things you don't like. Honestly this such a childish discussion .

    Ah, the sense of entitlement some people feel. Nothing,absolutely nothing in life is free, It's all accompanied by a cost.  Learn that lesson folks.

    "P2P is an outdated model. Today's gamers prefer and expect a FTP system which in the long term, vastly increase the playerbase and  will be much more profitable for game developers."

    "If you don't like what they are offering for free and feel it's somehow wrong , don't play.  You have no right to complain about a free offering.  If you like it and want to experience the whole game pay the $15/mo , and then complain about the things you don't like."

    These two statements don't jibe.

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Phoenix, AZPosts: 823Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tiefighter25
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk

    Their game, they get to set the rules. Plain and simple. If you don't like what they are offering for free and feel it's somehow wrong , don't play.  You have no right to complain about a free offering.  If you like it and want to experience the whole game pay the $15/mo , and then complain about the things you don't like. Honestly this such a childish discussion .

    Ah, the sense of entitlement some people feel. Nothing,absolutely nothing in life is free, It's all accompanied by a cost.  Learn that lesson folks.

    "P2P is an outdated model. Today's gamers prefer and expect a FTP system which in the long term, vastly increase the playerbase and  will be much more profitable for game developers."

    "If you don't like what they are offering for free and feel it's somehow wrong , don't play.  You have no right to complain about a free offering.  If you like it and want to experience the whole game pay the $15/mo , and then complain about the things you don't like."

    These two statements don't jibe.

     Yup , they do . Basically only a paying customer has the right to complain , and obviously a paying customer would pay if he likes aspects of the game .  I never played a game and paid a sub for a game I didn't enjoy . Did I enjoy every aspect ? No , but obviously enough to pay the sub. My God , why would you pay for a game you weren't playing or didn't enjoy ?

    As for P2P being outdated, bull ! If true please explain WoW and EvE .  The things encouraging F2P are quality and an outdated financial model that forces devs to charge an unrealisticly low sub rate based on inflation and operating cost. This requires huge numbers for a breakeven point and to maintain .

    image
  • dead2soondead2soon phoenix, AZPosts: 149Member
    Should this suprise you. SWTOR as a whole was not very thought out.
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