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Biowares f2p model, bringing segregation back!

135

Comments

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zhylaw

    F2P is sopposed to mean you get to play the entire game...for free. But you will be unable to enjoy certain conviences, new content or vanity type stuff without either paying for it or subscribing depending on whether the game has a secondary sub model or just a cash shop.

     

    ...

     

    This is not F2P, this is Freemium, and an excellent example of how how NOT to implement it at that.

    There is no standard to advertising a game as F2P.  If you're getting bent out of shape after years of companies doing this, you're in for a long ride.

     

    No one is going to advertise a game as Fremium.  That's just a term players in the genre use.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,928Member Uncommon

    It's pretty clear why they chose this model.

     

    1) It's pretty much the easiest to implement.  Just limit players access to instanced content

    2) They believe that they will get a decent retention rate of players trying the game for the first time that will choose to subscribe

     

    I personally don't believe that failed subscription games find success by going F2P to the cap and then expecting people to pay subs.  There's a reason why the game failed with a sub based model, it's because players didn't think it was worth a sub. 

     

    It baffles me that companies keep clinging to the idea that every MMO is worth $15 a month.  They need to start looking at alternative forms of payment, such as cash shops or permanent unlocks for a single payment.

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by Po_gg

    As a few posters already stated, this model is basically for us, players who waited for a KotOR 3 :) or, if you like to see that way, a trial to lvl50.

    When they announced the f2p matrix I wrote the same, I loved the story, but didn't wanted to pay a monthly fee just to play all the classes over (and I wasn't interested the crappy mmo-like part of ToR). With this model EA only 'fixing' their mistake, and allowing us to finish the rest of the classes, without subscription, like any other decent single player rpg games.

    Limited flashpoints, and no operations? Who cares? :)

    It sounds good on paper, but EA is really pushing "free" players to convert to subscriptions by making their overall experience as miserable as possible... even if someone just wants to do stories.  Some limits were mentioned earlier, like Not being able to sell on the GTN (Interview with Gabe).  How about also reduced inventory, reduced bank space, slower XP (more grindy) for freemium players?

     

    You will be crying for Space Combat, flashpoints, and warzones, after you grind mobs day in and day out, having run out of quests..  yup rails Space Combat will actually be craved, eventually.  The grind will be even worse with limited access to decent gear, like from flashpoints.

     

    Community Q&A: Free-to-Play Edition

    http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-free-play-edition

     

    Several players asked: Can you give us more detail about the restrictions on Free-to-Play members? If not, when can we expect more details?

    Damion Schubert: Giving more information about these limitations is a core part of our communication efforts over the next few weeks. Our goal is to allow Free-to-Play members to play the game from levels 1 to 50 and encounter most of the class and world content along the way. However, it is equally important to us that the subscription members will have access to a significant number of convenience features that make the game easier to play - leveling speed, bank access, inventory size are all good examples. Once these details are published, I think that most players familiar with the game as it is now will agree that while Free-to-Play members will be getting a good experience and the subscription members will be getting a substantially improved gameplay experience.

     

    Comments like these by Damion Schubert is what is contributing to an awkwardly bad taste with gamers.  I expect a lot of poor and disgruntled "free" players as they find it very difficult to level and earn enough money to train heh.  Then there is the travel restrictions .. oh boy.

     

    The problem many have is that the game wasn't worth a subscription fee in it's current state, so why would this change? /puzzled ... all they had to do (IMO) was release something amazingly awesome like a variety of competitive mini games, and freeroam space exploration / combat / trading etc.  Build something epic and addictingly fun and people will come....  Such a waste :/

     

    ps - I have no idea what is meant that free players get most of the class content, and most of the world content along the way (in the blue quote, underlined).  Up for grabs .. maybe limited world quests too (can't finish the chains as a freemium? .. maybe limited class content means no romance .. /shrug

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Maplewood, NJPosts: 1,099Member Uncommon

    I'm still waiting for them to announce which races are free for all and which ones are for paying players only.

    I swear, if I am limited to humans and cyborgs, I will kiss any future playings with this game goodbye.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    good for a 1-50 trial.. useless after that.
  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Po_gg

    As a few posters already stated, this model is basically for us, players who waited for a KotOR 3 :) or, if you like to see that way, a trial to lvl50.

    When they announced the f2p matrix I wrote the same, I loved the story, but didn't wanted to pay a monthly fee just to play all the classes over (and I wasn't interested the crappy mmo-like part of ToR). With this model EA only 'fixing' their mistake, and allowing us to finish the rest of the classes, without subscription, like any other decent single player rpg games.

    Limited flashpoints, and no operations? Who cares? :)

    See I point at this and go how true.  So many folks are going to log on get to 50, finish up then leave again.   EA hope folks log in and like the game enough and force them to sub up, I think they got another form of reality thats going to kick in.  The freeloader who has no intention of paying up any more money.  Quite frankly I could care less to finish my 3 alts left on the republic side. 

     

  • RyowulfRyowulf Greensburg, PAPosts: 668Member
    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    I'm still waiting for them to announce which races are free for all and which ones are for paying players only.

    I swear, if I am limited to humans and cyborgs, I will kiss any future playings with this game goodbye.

    All the races are human(skin color & jewelry notwithstanding) so what are you concenred about?

    Its not like there are wookies, jawa and droids.

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Kitchener, ONPosts: 1,974Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by william0532

    So I was looking at their f2p model and really had to laugh. According to their differences between subs and f2p players chart http://www.swtor.com/free/features you can see that their will be two distinct classes of players. The freemium players won't be able to compete in pvp(with one warzone a day limit you will never have warhero gear), meaning you will be garbage in pvp. "Thats ok, I'm a raider" you say? Well, you are not allowed to do any raids.

    This means that subscription players will not let you into their guild, and why should they, you would be utterly worthless. So basically their new model is going to create a population of bums floating around the galaxy? Maybe they will allow pan handling at starports for cartel coins?

    if I come off as trashing free to play, players, or subscription players, I really am not trying to accomplish that. I'm just pointing out the segregation in community that this system will create.

     

    Did I mention that free players have limited auction house usuge? Congratulations on being broke.(see pan handling comment above)

    Limited travel options? Awesome, so maybe TOR will be the first game to have hitchhiking? ###, gas, or grass?

    I usually don't argue for one system or another and usually judge game's by whether or not they are fun; However I'm seriously confused by this model, wouldn't it be better to just announce that free to play is instead a free trial in an attempt to move boxs instead of coming up with this half witted attempt? Both would rake in some needed cash, but the system they are implementing just seems horrible. Am I missing something?

    I think if I played the game so much that I wanted to dedicate a lot of time to PvP or raiding then I would likely feel it is worth subbing. . since it would be my main game.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member

    The leveling is the only reason to play this game...

    I will gladly play a class for the story to 50 and leave the game.

    The people that will be paying 15 bucks a month for SWTOR endgame raiding and pvp are chumps imo...

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • nightfallrobnightfallrob Prescott Valley, AZPosts: 167Member
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    At least the F2P will allow you to pretend it is Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 like they said it was prior to launch. Drop in play the stories and drop back out.

     

    That is if they let you complete the story quests on F2P.

    The problem with this is that you can't complete the story quests without completing heroics and flashpoints or participating in PvP. The storyline quests don't pay out enough XP to level to the point you can defeat the bosses on the way, and they aren't saying whether or not the zone side quests will be available. So it looks like you'll have to pay to get the side quests, heoric missions, and flashpoints if you want to play the story all the way through. While free to play is never truly free, it's usually not quite such a blatant bait-and-switch operation as this will be. Once again, EA demonstrates how little they think of their customers.

  • Sevenstar61Sevenstar61 Centreville, VAPosts: 1,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nightfallrob
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    At least the F2P will allow you to pretend it is Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 like they said it was prior to launch. Drop in play the stories and drop back out.

     

    That is if they let you complete the story quests on F2P.

    The problem with this is that you can't complete the story quests without completing heroics and flashpoints or participating in PvP. The storyline quests don't pay out enough XP to level to the point you can defeat the bosses on the way, and they aren't saying whether or not the zone side quests will be available. So it looks like you'll have to pay to get the side quests, heoric missions, and flashpoints if you want to play the story all the way through. While free to play is never truly free, it's usually not quite such a blatant bait-and-switch operation as this will be. Once again, EA demonstrates how little they think of their customers.

    F2P will have access to flashpoint and PvPs, but they will have weekly limit. We do not know what a limit will be.

    image
    Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
    Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
    Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by Sevenstar61
    Originally posted by nightfallrob
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    At least the F2P will allow you to pretend it is Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 like they said it was prior to launch. Drop in play the stories and drop back out.

     

    That is if they let you complete the story quests on F2P.

    The problem with this is that you can't complete the story quests without completing heroics and flashpoints or participating in PvP. The storyline quests don't pay out enough XP to level to the point you can defeat the bosses on the way, and they aren't saying whether or not the zone side quests will be available. So it looks like you'll have to pay to get the side quests, heoric missions, and flashpoints if you want to play the story all the way through. While free to play is never truly free, it's usually not quite such a blatant bait-and-switch operation as this will be. Once again, EA demonstrates how little they think of their customers.

    F2P will have access to flashpoint and PvPs, but they will have weekly limit. We do not know what a limit will be.

    Well we do know a ballpark limit, from an interview with Gabe Amatangelo.

     

    GamesCom 2012: Interview with Gabe Amatangelo

    http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/21321-gamescom-2012-interview-with-gabe-amatangelo

     

    Ok, that covers the first question. Second thing which was a huge thing on the internet was free-to-play, and so, with F2P on the horizon, what limitations are there for F2P players concerning PVP?

    Sure, they’re only going to be able to do like one Warzone a day or something like that. We’re still sort of hammering out the specifics on what is restricted for that F2P option. With the F2P option, you can get to level 50 but you can only do some content like, it’d be like some of the older operations, maybe just Eternity Vault, and we’ll give you a taste of Warzones, like you can play one a day or something like that. Flashpoints, maybe one a week, two a week, I don’t know.

     

    While it is stated that they are still working out the details, if the numbers are this low, then I wouldn't suddenly expect many FP's per week, or many Warzones per day, etc.  These are the numbers EA is thinking about, and they are not appealing, honestly.  Set in stone? Nope .. Ballpark values, you betcha.

     

    He does drop a note that EV might be available as a freebie.

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member
    Originally posted by Vannor
    good for a 1-50 trial.. useless after that.

    So it's no different than before F2P then.

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • I was looking forward to F2P, but these restrictions are rediculous.

     

    My prediction, either folks will just play the 1-50 story then quit, or not bother at all after knowing the limits placed. How this helps the game, which clearly isn't good enough to maintain an acceptable core of subscribers, is a mystery to me.

  • Sevenstar61Sevenstar61 Centreville, VAPosts: 1,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Khur

    I was looking forward to F2P, but these restrictions are rediculous.

     

    My prediction, either folks will just play the 1-50 story then quit, or not bother at all after knowing the limits placed. How this helps the game, which clearly isn't good enough to maintain an acceptable core of subscribers, is a mystery to me.

    So how the game would retain subscriptions if F2P would give folks the same or almost the same stuff. Everybody would move to F2P. That would certainly not help the game.

     

    image
    Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
    Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
    Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by Po_gg

    As a few posters already stated, this model is basically for us, players who waited for a KotOR 3 :) or, if you like to see that way, a trial to lvl50.

    When they announced the f2p matrix I wrote the same, I loved the story, but didn't wanted to pay a monthly fee just to play all the classes over (and I wasn't interested the crappy mmo-like part of ToR). With this model EA only 'fixing' their mistake, and allowing us to finish the rest of the classes, without subscription, like any other decent single player rpg games.

    Limited flashpoints, and no operations? Who cares? :)

    It sounds good on paper, but EA is really pushing "free" players to convert to subscriptions by making their overall experience as miserable as possible... even if someone just wants to do stories.  Some limits were mentioned earlier, like Not being able to sell on the GTN (Interview with Gabe).  How about also reduced inventory, reduced bank space, slower XP (more grindy) for freemium players?

     

    You will be crying for Space Combat, flashpoints, and warzones, after you grind mobs day in and day out, having run out of quests..  yup rails Space Combat will actually be craved, eventually.  The grind will be even worse with limited access to decent gear, like from flashpoints.

     

    Community Q&A: Free-to-Play Edition

    http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-free-play-edition

     

    Several players asked: Can you give us more detail about the restrictions on Free-to-Play members? If not, when can we expect more details?

    Damion Schubert: Giving more information about these limitations is a core part of our communication efforts over the next few weeks. Our goal is to allow Free-to-Play members to play the game from levels 1 to 50 and encounter most of the class and world content along the way. However, it is equally important to us that the subscription members will have access to a significant number of convenience features that make the game easier to play - leveling speed, bank access, inventory size are all good examples. Once these details are published, I think that most players familiar with the game as it is now will agree that while Free-to-Play members will be getting a good experience and the subscription members will be getting a substantially improved gameplay experience.

     

    Comments like these by Damion Schubert is what is contributing to an awkwardly bad taste with gamers.  I expect a lot of poor and disgruntled "free" players as they find it very difficult to level and earn enough money to train heh.  Then there is the travel restrictions .. oh boy.

     

    The problem many have is that the game wasn't worth a subscription fee in it's current state, so why would this change? /puzzled ... all they had to do (IMO) was release something amazingly awesome like a variety of competitive mini games, and freeroam space exploration / combat / trading etc.  Build something epic and addictingly fun and people will come....  Such a waste :/

     

    ps - I have no idea what is meant that free players get most of the class content, and most of the world content along the way (in the blue quote, underlined).  Up for grabs .. maybe limited world quests too (can't finish the chains as a freemium? .. maybe limited class content means no romance .. /shrug

     

    I'm not sure it stated that the leveling of F2P players will be slower than it currently is.  Maybe sub players just get a boost over what's there currently?  That's the only major issue I foresee.

     

    I'd wait to see the actual implementation before getting up in arms.

  • JobeArthurJobeArthur seattle, WAPosts: 38Member

    One of the things I remember coming up was the limited access to speeders. I was LMAO as it was mentioned about not letting FTP players buy speeders at all, I could only imagine how many new subs the game would get with a FTP player having to run all around Hoth and other large planets to unlock the taxi speeders. On PVP server the fail would be epic as the gankers just go on patrol between a few bases and lock the noobs out of content as they have to spawn back at the base they started the death run from and try over and over till they rage uninstall..

    Just for the humor aspect i still hope thats the plan, but surely they cannot be that stupid and let the FTPs at least buy the first tier of speeder as it will still be very annoying getting knocked off by every single rat in game.

    But its is EA so we know its going to be bad we just need to see how bad. Should be entertaining to say the least.

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,705Member Uncommon
    That's the standard western F2P, nothing new there...............absolutely rubbish
  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by william0532
    Originally posted by SuperDonk

    At least the F2P will allow you to pretend it is Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 like they said it was prior to launch. Drop in play the stories and drop back out.

     

    That is if they let you complete the story quests on F2P.

    They do let you play to level 50 which are the end's of the main story quests. Which is kind of why I wondered why they didn't just do a free trial to level 50 model instead of this f2p setup.

    Because they couldnt nickel and dime subscribers in the process.

    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

    Yes you are missing, free is not free.

    In fact many "Free" games make more money than when they were subscription. That is why they when "Free" to begin with.

    To answer your more specific questions. You will probably get limited access to the things you discribe-- unless you pay for it. If you want to have more access to PVP then you will have to pay. If you want premium classes then you will have to pay. 

    A subscription is when you pay a single price and get what you pay for .

    Free to play is when you get nickel and dimed by the company until you realize you spent more money on "Free" than you would have with a subscription.

    But hey, Free to play is the wave of the future... Yay?

    There are great freemium models, Turbine got it quite right with LOTRO and DDO.

    But then there are bad ones like EQ2 and SWTOR.

    SWTOR "F2P" is designed to nickel and dime subscribers. They have to snatch every dime from fanbois until they leave.

    "Details are coming" but it seems that EA can only use bad examples and cant learn anything. Its usually called retarded.

    Originally posted by Sevenstar61

    Compare EQ2 F2P LOTRO F2P and SWTOR F2P

    Click on image to enlarge

    EQ2

    image

    LOTRO

    image

    SWTOR

    image

     

    Also, VERY important tomention is that in LOTRO/DOO you get Turbine points by just playing the game and those are same as bought ones, so you CAN play game completely free and lots of perks that automatically unlock by subscribing just 1 month remain after you cancel subscription (bags, virtue//trait slots, riding skill, swift travel unlocks...)

    In other 2 games thats not possible and true.

    And before someone jumps in, yes, i know people that unlocked almost "whole" (well, what they considered wirthy unlocking with hard earnet TPs) game without paying a dime. Its a huge grind, but it IS doable.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,719Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by erictlewis
    Originally posted by Po_gg

    As a few posters already stated, this model is basically for us, players who waited for a KotOR 3 :) or, if you like to see that way, a trial to lvl50.

    When they announced the f2p matrix I wrote the same, I loved the story, but didn't wanted to pay a monthly fee just to play all the classes over (and I wasn't interested the crappy mmo-like part of ToR). With this model EA only 'fixing' their mistake, and allowing us to finish the rest of the classes, without subscription, like any other decent single player rpg games.

    Limited flashpoints, and no operations? Who cares? :)

    See I point at this and go how true.  So many folks are going to log on get to 50, finish up then leave again.   EA hope folks log in and like the game enough and force them to sub up, I think they got another form of reality thats going to kick in.  The freeloader who has no intention of paying up any more money.  Quite frankly I could care less to finish my 3 alts left on the republic side. 

     

    I think EA don't hope that, they're hoping they can lure in new players, and maybe these new ones will subscribe. It's pretty obvious, that former players won't sub :) you wrote yourself: "Quite frankly I could care less to finish my 3 alts left", and that's pretty much the same I got from my buddies. Those who loved the story part are coming back for 1-50 and then planning to leave, and those who were into ToR as an SW mmo... they don't even plan to come back.

    And it's reasonable, I guess. They spacebar'd the animations in the first place, levelled up to 50, and then quit swearing "never touch this **** again"... why would they come back for the limited endgame content, which is pretty much the same it was 6months ago?

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by william0532

    So I was looking at their f2p model and really had to laugh. According to their differences between subs and f2p players chart http://www.swtor.com/free/features you can see that their will be two distinct classes of players. The freemium players won't be able to compete in pvp(with one warzone a day limit you will never have warhero gear), meaning you will be garbage in pvp. "Thats ok, I'm a raider" you say? Well, you are not allowed to do any raids.

    This means that subscription players will not let you into their guild, and why should they, you would be utterly worthless. So basically their new model is going to create a population of bums floating around the galaxy? Maybe they will allow pan handling at starports for cartel coins?

    if I come off as trashing free to play, players, or subscription players, I really am not trying to accomplish that. I'm just pointing out the segregation in community that this system will create.

     

    Did I mention that free players have limited auction house usuge? Congratulations on being broke.(see pan handling comment above)

    Limited travel options? Awesome, so maybe TOR will be the first game to have hitchhiking? ###, gas, or grass?

    I usually don't argue for one system or another and usually judge game's by whether or not they are fun; However I'm seriously confused by this model, wouldn't it be better to just announce that free to play is instead a free trial in an attempt to move boxs instead of coming up with this half witted attempt? Both would rake in some needed cash, but the system they are implementing just seems horrible. Am I missing something?

    Wait what are you complaining about... they are going hey if you want to play for free you can but you cant do as many things.. they are not going to give you everything for nothing..

     

    This system makes the most sense..

     

     

    Not that ill be playing it anyway as the game is horrible but i still dont get this current generation expecting everything for nothing...

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by william0532

    So basically their new model is going to create a population of bums floating around the galaxy? Maybe they will allow pan handling at starports for cartel coins?

     

    Well, it wouldn't take much RP from the average F2P supporter at least.

  • IndromeIndrome NortheimPosts: 292Member

    Oh right, THAT was why I initially dropped my plan to go back to this cesspool of "featurelessness" again when F2P hits.

    Limiting a game that had a very limited breadth of features to begin with even more just seems a little too obviously money-grabbing to me. I can't really in good conscience support something like this.

    Too bad, really. I quite enjoyed the game while it "lasted". I miss my sith assassin tank.

    image

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon
    Seems to me they're giving away the best part of the game for free.  The raids and PvP were beyond subpar.
  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sevenstar61
    Originally posted by Khur

    I was looking forward to F2P, but these restrictions are rediculous.

     

    My prediction, either folks will just play the 1-50 story then quit, or not bother at all after knowing the limits placed. How this helps the game, which clearly isn't good enough to maintain an acceptable core of subscribers, is a mystery to me.

    So how the game would retain subscriptions if F2P would give folks the same or almost the same stuff. Everybody would move to F2P. That would certainly not help the game.

     

    I think a lot will move to F2P, as existing subbers should get enough Cartel coins to carry them through.

    All I care about is the 1-50 story, so will just play that all for free. There are better multiplayer Star Wars games out there, like Battlefront 2

    They need to add stuff that makes you want to keep subscribing, the current stuff is not adequate

    If people were not willing to pay when P2P, they will not be willing to pay for the same things in F2P.

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