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[General Article] World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria: Review in Progress – Part Two

2

Comments

  • KareliaKarelia HeraklionPosts: 668Member
    Originally posted by stefanakisgr

    I really didnt expect much from Mists of Pandaria , and I was pleasently surprised . No other world ever felt as alive as Pandaria .Open spaces feel like orient in every way , flora , fauna and landmarks alike . The farming subquest/minigame is fun , never tedious , and adds another layer to cooking . Which is embedded well into pandarien lore . The quests are well thought story wise , humorous when appropriate , and fun all around as well . Critter fights are fun as well . There's a million little improvements I also like , the ability to join in a quest boss fight and get credit , the revamped silver/rare mobs (that most of the time have a deadly special attack in pandaria ) , faster queu's , etc .

    If there is one thing I dont like , thats the talent revamp . Dont get me wrong , in the state they were , removing the illusion of choice was a good thing , but I expected a step in the opposite direction , more choice . Now its not even close to a character defining trait , more like a couple of optional abilities . 

     

    All in all I make the bold claim that this is the best expansion to Wow yet . For me at least . And a big surprise , as most of the guys here , when I heard panda's I thought that this might be the end of wow . It sounded ridiculous . Boy I was wrong . It is as much about implementation as anything else . The more I see , the more I like . 

    very well said. agree 100%

  • roo67roo67 londonPosts: 402Member

    This will be the first expansion I've not brought within three months of release . The whole Panda thing just leaves me cold . I've been playing WoW for maybe a couple of months every year since I gave up playing it on a regular basis about 4 years ago . In that time the quality of WoW has gone downhill . I may eventually get MoP when I see it on offer but it will have to be a very low price . I'll also play when theres the welcome back offers . But for me theres better gameplay to be had elsewhere now days .

     

    Rift offers most of what WoW has lost .I can customise my class there . The game looks tons better than WoW and with the expansion the game world will be three times the size ( something like WoW was circa burning crusade ) .A couple of the Warfronts are similar to WoWs but I don't mind that .  

     

    Guild Wars 2 offer far more challenging PVE and dynamic events and the PVPs a lot of fun.On top of that theres no subscription ( also WarZ and Planetside 2 are out soon too as buy to play ) . All three of these games are totally different to WoW but offer amazing gameplay concepts .

     

    Theres a whole range of free to play titles that are fun to play casually . Lotro I'm finding offers far more challenging questing than WoW . The character animations arn't very good though .

     

    Why anyone would want to confine themselves to WoW anymore is beyond me .

     
     
     
  • GaborikGaborik Roseville, MNPosts: 251Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    What was the point of this review update?
    Just to say how much you dislike the new talent system and how you were able to complete the Pandaren starter zone?
    A review is just the opinion of one person but a good reviewer tries to be as objective as possible. The section on the new talent system clearly illustrates that this is not the case here. There was no attempt to discuss the pros and cons of the new talent system.
    Does MMORPG.com even care about the integrity of their reviews anymore? Considering that this was written by the same guy that did the GW2 review, the answer is a definitive "No".

     

    MMORPG.com has lost a lot of credibility because of this. When GW2 came out its was fanboi nation on here many people I know were banned multiple times by "mmorpg staff" for expressing their issues with GW2. Its apparent this "reviewer" himself is a fanboi of GW2.
  • KareliaKarelia HeraklionPosts: 668Member
    Originally posted by Gaborik
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    What was the point of this review update?


    Just to say how much you dislike the new talent system and how you were able to complete the Pandaren starter zone?


    A review is just the opinion of one person but a good reviewer tries to be as objective as possible. The section on the new talent system clearly illustrates that this is not the case here. There was no attempt to discuss the pros and cons of the new talent system.


    Does MMORPG.com even care about the integrity of their reviews anymore? Considering that this was written by the same guy that did the GW2 review, the answer is a definitive "No".

     

    MMORPG.com has lost a lot of credibility because of this. When GW2 came out its was fanboi nation on here many people I know were banned multiple times by "mmorpg staff" for expressing their issues with GW2. Its apparent this "reviewer" himself is a fanboi of GW2.

    true 100%. this really suck!

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member
    Originally posted by Gaborik
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    What was the point of this review update?


    Just to say how much you dislike the new talent system and how you were able to complete the Pandaren starter zone?


    A review is just the opinion of one person but a good reviewer tries to be as objective as possible. The section on the new talent system clearly illustrates that this is not the case here. There was no attempt to discuss the pros and cons of the new talent system.


    Does MMORPG.com even care about the integrity of their reviews anymore? Considering that this was written by the same guy that did the GW2 review, the answer is a definitive "No".

     

    MMORPG.com has lost a lot of credibility because of this. When GW2 came out its was fanboi nation on here many people I know were banned multiple times by "mmorpg staff" for expressing their issues with GW2. Its apparent this "reviewer" himself is a fanboi of GW2.

    Anyone that comes to this site and expects to find anything from 99% of the posters or the staff that is constructive about WoW is crazy.  This is not the place to come and talk about WoW.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,183Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ausare
    Originally posted by Gaborik
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    What was the point of this review update?


    Just to say how much you dislike the new talent system and how you were able to complete the Pandaren starter zone?


    A review is just the opinion of one person but a good reviewer tries to be as objective as possible. The section on the new talent system clearly illustrates that this is not the case here. There was no attempt to discuss the pros and cons of the new talent system.


    Does MMORPG.com even care about the integrity of their reviews anymore? Considering that this was written by the same guy that did the GW2 review, the answer is a definitive "No".

     

    MMORPG.com has lost a lot of credibility because of this. When GW2 came out its was fanboi nation on here many people I know were banned multiple times by "mmorpg staff" for expressing their issues with GW2. Its apparent this "reviewer" himself is a fanboi of GW2.

    Anyone that comes to this site and expects to find anything from 99% of the posters or the staff that is constructive about WoW is crazy.  This is not the place to come and talk about WoW.

    Seriously, if you want to  talk constructively about Wow, lets start with the fact that it is consistently made much easier with every expansion.    I just do not understand Blizzard's need to remove all challenges from the game.  The game is to the point now, that you don't even have to think, leveling just flies by.  Wow was a much better game at release and just gets progressively worse as time goes on.  For many of us, a game with little challenge is just boring and no fun.  MMORPG and it's posters have every right to criticize the game and Blizzard for the bad direction it has taken.

  • expressoexpresso mePosts: 2,183Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozmodan
     

    Seriously, if you want to  talk constructively about Wow, lets start with the fact that it is consistently made much easier with every expansion.    I just do not understand Blizzard's need to remove all challenges from the game.  The game is to the point now, that you don't even have to think, leveling just flies by.  Wow was a much better game at release and just gets progressively worse as time goes on.  For many of us, a game with little challenge is just boring and no fun.  MMORPG and it's posters have every right to criticize the game and Blizzard for the bad direction it has taken.

    But everything you wrote was CLOSED opinon how can we be constructive about that?

     

    On topic, It appears like no one at MMORPG want to review MOP and that is fine -- and if that is the case then don't review it at all rather than botching together a few loose comments at the 11th hour and saying done.

     

    MMORPG would be doing a service taking these "in progress" reviews down and leaving it there... I've seen youtube reviews with more substance and that is saying something.

     

    Incase you all think we're whinning over nothing, take this snippet from the "review".

    "Instead of a talent point to spend every level after 10, you know only get a talent point every 15 levels.  This means you’ll pick six talents by the time you hit level 90.  No more min-maxing.  The idea was to solve the “you need this build” problem plaguing WoW’s PVE.  It didn’t do that.  You’re still going to have people saying you need such and such builds for healing, tanking, and so forth.  All it really did is make leveling more of a chore in a game that’s getting quite long in the tooth.  How? When it used to be that every other level or so you’d get a new skill or spell, now you only get one very sparingly."

    Shows the reviewer knows nothing about the new system, whats he's is implying is you only get new skills and abilities very 15 levels.... pfft no you get new spells and abilities every few levels as you did before but every 15th level you get to flavour one of the abilities using a talent point.  Did the reviewer play the game? I have to wonder?

  • SvarcanumSvarcanum SthlmPosts: 341Member Uncommon
    The talent revamp is glorious. Maybe not when leveling upp but when at max level. I switched talents for every boss in MoguShan. They finally got rid of cookie cutter in a sense. Now there are cookie cutter builds based on what boss you're facing rather than what spec you play. I really like it.
  • roo67roo67 londonPosts: 402Member
    Originally posted by papardelios
    Originally posted by Gaborik
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    What was the point of this review update?


    Just to say how much you dislike the new talent system and how you were able to complete the Pandaren starter zone?


    A review is just the opinion of one person but a good reviewer tries to be as objective as possible. The section on the new talent system clearly illustrates that this is not the case here. There was no attempt to discuss the pros and cons of the new talent system.


    Does MMORPG.com even care about the integrity of their reviews anymore? Considering that this was written by the same guy that did the GW2 review, the answer is a definitive "No".

     

    MMORPG.com has lost a lot of credibility because of this. When GW2 came out its was fanboi nation on here many people I know were banned multiple times by "mmorpg staff" for expressing their issues with GW2. Its apparent this "reviewer" himself is a fanboi of GW2.

    true 100%. this really suck!

    I think they are fed up like the rest of us with WoW fanboys trying to destroy every mmo upon release . Its not good for the mmo industry and short sighted because todays fanboys may get bored of WoW or grow out of it and want to play another mmo in the future .But the more mmos that are released only to savaged by trolls the less likly it will be companys will invest in making new mmos .

     

    Its funny how many WoW fans automatically loved D3 simply because it was by Blizzard . The same game had it been released by another company proberbly would have been savaged by the same people that praised it .

     

    Loyalty to a games company is pretty pathetic but it does come with being young . I was loyal to Marvel Comics from when I was 7 till my mid teens . I didn't grow out of enjoying comics but I did grow out of the make mine marvel mentality and moved on to many wonderful comics like Sin City, Watchmen, the Walking dead  . Hopefully todays younger Blizzard fans may do a similar thing with mmos.

     

    If they gave the games out there a real chance I think the majority would enjoy them .

     
     
  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,183Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by expresso
    Originally posted by Ozmodan
     

    Seriously, if you want to  talk constructively about Wow, lets start with the fact that it is consistently made much easier with every expansion.    I just do not understand Blizzard's need to remove all challenges from the game.  The game is to the point now, that you don't even have to think, leveling just flies by.  Wow was a much better game at release and just gets progressively worse as time goes on.  For many of us, a game with little challenge is just boring and no fun.  MMORPG and it's posters have every right to criticize the game and Blizzard for the bad direction it has taken.

    But everything you wrote was CLOSED opinon how can we be constructive about that?

     

    On topic, It appears like no one at MMORPG want to review MOP and that is fine -- and if that is the case then don't review it at all rather than botching together a few loose comments at the 11th hour and saying done.

     

    MMORPG would be doing a service taking these "in progress" reviews down and leaving it there... I've seen youtube reviews with more substance and that is saying something.

     

    Incase you all think we're whinning over nothing, take this snippet from the "review".

    "Instead of a talent point to spend every level after 10, you know only get a talent point every 15 levels.  This means you’ll pick six talents by the time you hit level 90.  No more min-maxing.  The idea was to solve the “you need this build” problem plaguing WoW’s PVE.  It didn’t do that.  You’re still going to have people saying you need such and such builds for healing, tanking, and so forth.  All it really did is make leveling more of a chore in a game that’s getting quite long in the tooth.  How? When it used to be that every other level or so you’d get a new skill or spell, now you only get one very sparingly."

    Shows the reviewer knows nothing about the new system, whats he's is implying is you only get new skills and abilities very 15 levels.... pfft no you get new spells and abilities every few levels as you did before but every 15th level you get to flavour one of the abilities using a talent point.  Did the reviewer play the game? I have to wonder?

    You obviously have a reading problem.  The review was spot on.  You used to get skills and talent points leveling far more frequently than you do now.    There are a lot of sites that don't even bother writing critical reviews, at least this site does so. If you want a "fanboy" review there are plenty of other sites that just mindlessly spout drivel to please their adoring fanbase.  You won't have to read an honest review at those sites.

    Unless you were in a heavy raiding guild no one every cared what talents you chose.  So the need to solve the build problem was nonexistent.  Blizzard redesigned the talent system for the few people who raid.  What you are left with is poor substitute for the only method in the game of customizing your avatar.  Blizzard deservers the criticism for still catering to the small raider segment.

  • SvarcanumSvarcanum SthlmPosts: 341Member Uncommon
    "Blizzard deservers the criticism for still catering to the small raider segment." WoW's superior raiding scene is what makes the game stay on top. If you don't like raiding, pretty much any MMO out there will be playable for you. Lately, GW2 for example. Casual gamers don't have as high demands. Most of them simply will play whatever works on their dated computer, which is why WoW is bigger than GW2 in that segment as well. Plus most casuals don't like to be challenged, and WoW's gameplay outside of raids and arenas is definitely quite easy compared to newer games like TSW and GW2. Blizzard catering to raiders is logical. Raiders make up the serious community, the community that produce content outside the game, the community that makes it so fiendishly hard to leave WoW for a techincally superior game. Were WoW to lose the raiders, the rest of the gamers would not be far behind.
     
    PS
    By "casual" I mean someone who plays game as something to pass the time. Not someone who is hardcore but do not have the time anymore to be a top dog. I play MMOs like a second job, because I enjoy working hard for things. 
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by expresso

    Cannot help but feel MMORPG.COM have made little effort to really look at MOP and have just thrown something together at the last minute to keep up appearences.  The game has been out 3 weeks and you cannot manage a full review? you've completed the starter area and the first zone of the new 85-90 content in that time?

     

    Not to comment on the content of these "in progress" reviews cus well there is little content and it's mostly inacurrate and full of supposition (see the first in-progress article about the jade forrest).

     

    Not to say I can do better but then again my job is not to review games, but if it was I would hope to do a much better job than what I have seen thus far.

     

    Just my little rant.

     

    Here are some video reviews worth watching for a rounded review of MOP.

    http://uk.ign.com/videos/2012/10/04/world-of-warcraft-mists-of-pandaria-review

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/reviews/6389-World-of-Warcraft-Mists-of-Pandaria-Video-Review?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=videos

     

     
     
     

    This review obviously isnt for players such as yourself who pre-ordered the expansion and rushed through the content. It is for people on the fence who want an opinion about all facets of the expansion, including the new starter experience.

  • expressoexpresso mePosts: 2,183Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    This review obviously isnt for players such as yourself who pre-ordered the expansion and rushed through the content. It is for people on the fence who want an opinion about all facets of the expansion, including the new starter experience.

    I hit 89 on my one and only character last night, hardly call that rushing would you?

    But quickly on to your last point cus the last few posts have started to get off topic.  This "review" does not explain the "facets" of the expansions, it attempts to explain the new talent system but end us being a whine about how it's different, here is how I would explain the new talent system in an impartial and informative way.

    MOP TALENT SYSTEM

    The Talent system in MOP has again been changed, as with all changes this will not go down too well some some players but might delight others.  At level one as you did with Cataylsm you pick one of three specs for your chosen class and doing so gives you spec specific skils and abilities.   As you level up every few levels you unlock new spells and abilities, the classic ones you're used to, some have been changed a little and there are a few new ones thrown in at high level - there is also no need to visit a skill trainner to get these they're instantly avaliable to you to use.  

    Here comes the big change, you no longer earn a talent point every other level and have to build a talent tree, which is how things have been since the vanilla, instead every 15 levels you get to put a point into a specific skill that will augment the skill in one of three ways, for example at level 15 the Hunter class get to augment his Disengage ability, he has three options to choose from;

     

    • Posthaste: Your Disengage frees you from all movement impairing effects and increases your movement speed by 60% for 8 sec.
    • Narrow Escape:  When you disengage, you also activate a web trap which encases all targets within 8 yards in sticky webs, preventing movement for 8 seconds.
    • Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera:  Reduces the cooldown of Disengage by 10 sec, and the cooldown of Deterrence by 60 sec.
    Each of these flavour the disengage ability, but don't nessesarily make one better than the other in all situations.
     
    Some would say this new system takes away customisation and they could right but as any seasoned WoW player knows you had to dump a lot of points into filler talents that gave passive 1% increases to skill before we got to stuff we we're really interested in.
     
    This new system though very different could have done with a choice every 10 levels rather than 15 and maybe cookie cutter builds will still rule the roost. But it's good to see Blizzard trying to solve the issue of cookie builds even if not every one agree's there was a problem to solve in the first place.
  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Managing Editor Berea, OHPosts: 2,356MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

    Hey guys,

    I dislike the new talent system, but I enjoyed the class as a whole.  Mind you, for this week's column while Garrett was in GDC, I was asked to write my opinion on these facets of the expansion.  It's not an official review, it's not the final review of the expansion... it's just my thoughts on these features.  You can disagree, but that doesn't make my complaints any less valid.  

    Leveling a new character in the post MoP world is a LOT less interesting because "new" changes to your character come far less often than they used to.  It's something I don't like about the expansion, but nowhere in my review does it say I think the whole thing is bad because of this.  In fact, thematically, it's probably the best in years.  But that doesn't mean I have to like all of the changes to the core systems.  

    In theory, I love the new talent system's IDEA.  I just think that one every 15 levels is too few.  One every five would make leveling more interesting, and give more variety in the process.  I understand that the old system was bloated with far too many "percents" and so forth.  But I feel this new system swung the pendulum too far back in the other direction.

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by expresso

    Cannot help but feel MMORPG.COM have made little effort to really look at MOP and have just thrown something together at the last minute to keep up appearences.  The game has been out 3 weeks and you cannot manage a full review? you've completed the starter area and the first zone of the new 85-90 content in that time?

     

    Not to comment on the content of these "in progress" reviews cus well there is little content and it's mostly inacurrate and full of supposition (see the first in-progress article about the jade forrest).

     

    Not to say I can do better but then again my job is not to review games, but if it was I would hope to do a much better job than what I have seen thus far.

     

    Just my little rant.

     

    Here are some video reviews worth watching for a rounded review of MOP.

    http://uk.ign.com/videos/2012/10/04/world-of-warcraft-mists-of-pandaria-review

    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/reviews/6389-World-of-Warcraft-Mists-of-Pandaria-Video-Review?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=videos

     

     
     

    Should give you an idea of how little most of us on this forum care about WOW anymore... /shrug

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Hey guys,I dislike the new talent system, but I enjoyed the class as a whole.  Mind you, for this week's column while Garrett was in GDC, I was asked to write my opinion on these facets of the expansion.  It's not an official review, it's not the final review of the expansion... it's just my thoughts on these features.  You can disagree, but that doesn't make my complaints any less valid.  Leveling a new character in the post MoP world is a LOT less interesting because "new" changes to your character come far less often than they used to.  It's something I don't like about the expansion, but nowhere in my review does it say I think the whole thing is bad because of this.  In fact, thematically, it's probably the best in years.  But that doesn't mean I have to like all of the changes to the core systems.  In theory, I love the new talent system's IDEA.  I just think that one every 15 levels is too few.  One every five would make leveling more interesting, and give more variety in the process.  I understand that the old system was bloated with far too many "percents" and so forth.  But I feel this new system swung the pendulum too far back in the other direction.
    So, your entire basis for not liking the new talent system is not having something new every level while leveling?


    You dont like the new talent system because it makes WoW LESS of a Skinner Box? Really?!


    So, because you dont get that food pellet disguised as a +1% crit chance or Shadowbolt VIII the new system is "not as fun".


    Is it really hard to wonder that people think MMORPGs are dying when a reviewer for MMORPG.com is mad that MMORPGs doesnt treat him like an animal?

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Managing Editor Berea, OHPosts: 2,356MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

    No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle.

    But go ahead and keep putting words in my mouth and insulting me if it makes your own opinion more valid.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by BillMurphy

    No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle.

    But go ahead and keep putting words in my mouth and insulting me if it makes your own opinion more valid.

    pretty much summed up more than half the arguments that go on, on these boards:)

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 583Member Uncommon

    Just fanboys unable to handle any criticism of their game.

     

    That said, I think it may be worth doing a f2p account and twinking out at level 20.  Nothing but the same old grind at higher levels, so may as well stick with twinked pvp.

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle.But go ahead and keep putting words in my mouth and insulting me if it makes your own opinion more valid.
    In your review and your previous post your main criticism with the new talent system is that it made leveling less interesting and more of a chore.


    Now you are saying that you dont like it only because it limits character customization.


    You dont need me changing what you say, you're doing a fine job on your own.


    Also, if you want YOUR opinion to be more valid then choose one. Dont say one thing then say something different when someone criticizes your first argument.


  • moguy2moguy2 Saint Peters, MOPosts: 337Member

    The game has been dumbed down. Bill hit it right on the head. And all the people butt hurt because he nailed the facts need to  log back into the game and troll /trade a little more. Seriously, it has become more accesible to the 9-12 year old range so every kid can moan to their parent to play the omg flashy and omg easy WoW game. Sure you can raid at the end-but from start to 90 is cake.

    Btw I havent got a warning in a while- if anyone has the time out to report me please. 

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Managing Editor Berea, OHPosts: 2,356MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

    @Xiaoki:

    Perhaps you should read my comments and column again? I really think you've not quite seen my point.

    • In the column: "The problem is that in theory it’s entirely sound.  In practice… it takes away customization and the fun of leveling in many ways."
    • Also in column: "By reducing the number of talents in this new system, the game has pretty much taken most of the choice out of raising your character and building him or her to your liking."
    • In the comments: "In theory, I love the new talent system's IDEA.  I just think that one every 15 levels is too few.  One every five would make leveling more interesting, and give more variety in the process.  I understand that the old system was bloated with far too many "percents" and so forth.  But I feel this new system swung the pendulum too far back in the other direction."
    • In comments again: "No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle."

    These are all in line with each other. Also, please don't take the negative sides of a critique to mean I dislike World of Warcraft if that's what is upsetting you.  Quite the contrary, I'm one of the game's many fans.  But I'd hardly be doing my job if I didn't bring up the positives and negatives when writing a "Review in Progress" column.  

    Edited for mistaken double-quote of the column.

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    @Xiaoki:

    Perhaps you should read my comments and column again? I really think you've not quite seen my point.

    • In the column: "The problem is that in theory it’s entirely sound.  In practice… it takes away customization and the fun of leveling in many ways." Also in column: "By reducing the number of talents in this new system, the game has pretty much taken most of the choice out of raising your character and building him or her to your liking." In the comments: "In theory, I love the new talent system's IDEA.  I just think that one every 15 levels is too few.  One every five would make leveling more interesting, and give more variety in the process.  I understand that the old system was bloated with far too many "percents" and so forth.  But I feel this new system swung the pendulum too far back in the other direction." In comments again: "No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle."
    These are all in line with each other. Also, please don't take the negative sides of a critique to mean I dislike World of Warcraft if that's what is upsetting you.  Quite the contrary, I'm one of the game's many fans.  But I'd hardly be doing my job if I didn't bring up the positives and negatives when writing a "Review in Progress" column.  

    Edited for mistaken double-quote of the column.


    The quote game is fun.


    Leveling:
    "it takes away customization and the fun of leveling in many ways"
    "Instead of a talent point to spend every level after 10, you know only get a talent point every 15 levels."
    "All it really did is make leveling more of a chore"
    "When it used to be that every other level"
    "Leveling, though faster than ever becomes a chore"
    "Leveling a new character in the post MoP world is a LOT less interesting "
    "I just think that one every 15 levels is too few."


    And now customization:
    "it takes away customization"
    "the game has pretty much taken most of the choice out of raising your character"
    "I dislike the talent system because it limits customization"
    "massive steps back the game has taken in the character customization department."


    What I take issue with are the people that immediately dismiss the new talent system when comparing it to the old talent tree system.


    You say its because you want choice and customization. But wheres the choice in a +% crit talent? Even in the review you call this a useless "stat boost" talent. So, you're angry that Blizzard took away the talents you yourself have deemed useless?


    If you were to actually go back and look at the old talent trees and remove all of the useless "stat boost" talents you end with 4 or 5 talents that would give you a new ability. So, upwards of 5 new abilities with the old talent trees is more customization than upwards of 6 with the new one. Um ....yeah.


    Lastly, I would like to ask, how many buttons do you want? Classes already have around 30 abilities at level 90 to deal with. My Death Knight tank has 10 defensive cooldowns. Yes, thats right, 10! But for some reason this isnt enough? Will having upwards of 50 abilities be enough customization for you? 100? 200? How much customization is too much?

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Managing Editor Berea, OHPosts: 2,356MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     

    Lastly, I would like to ask, how many buttons do you want? Classes already have around 30 abilities at level 90 to deal with. My Death Knight tank has 10 defensive cooldowns. Yes, thats right, 10! But for some reason this isnt enough? Will having upwards of 50 abilities be enough customization for you? 100? 200? How much customization is too much?

    Fair enough sir, we disagree.  I think the old trees had gotten too convoluted.  But I also think this new system is too simplistic. I loved, regardless of how "pointless" some spending of points was, making a choice every level with my talents.  Then it was even more seldom, and now it's few and far between.  

    I remember when WoW allowed players to allocate their stats back in beta, a feature that was quickly removed because it was "too easy to ruin your stats".  But that same system was present in the Diablo games and it was heralded as one of its best points.  

    For a very long time now, Blizzard has been taking a lot of choice away from character development in favor of balance and accessibility.  I'm not saying that's wrong.  I mean, hell they have over 10 million subscribers.  I'm just saying it's not my cup of tea.  

    You ask how much custmization is too much? I'm not sure, for me, there is a limit.  But how little customization is too little (again for me)? This new talent system.

    Edit: Oh, and I do see your point about the old trees.  Again, I'm not saying they were "the bestest".  But another poster in this  thread put it well.  You used to have something every level that made your character yours. If you wanted to raid, chances are you had to follow certain "builds".  But for me, I was playing my characters my way, and the simply act of choosing how my character grew every level is gone now.  It's something that I enjoyed, even if it was faulted.  But now, it's just not there.

    I'm not trying to prove you wrong, Xiaoki.  I'm just laying out my point of view in hopes that you can understand it even if you disagree.  Because, you know... disagreement is okay.  :)

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by Xiaoki   Lastly, I would like to ask, how many buttons do you want? Classes already have around 30 abilities at level 90 to deal with. My Death Knight tank has 10 defensive cooldowns. Yes, thats right, 10! But for some reason this isnt enough? Will having upwards of 50 abilities be enough customization for you? 100? 200? How much customization is too much?
    Fair enough sir, we disagree.  I think the old trees had gotten too convoluted.  But I also think this new system is too simplistic. I loved, regardless of how "pointless" some spending of points was, making a choice every level with my talents.  Then it was even more seldom, and now it's few and far between.  

    I remember when WoW allowed players to allocate their stats back in beta, a feature that was quickly removed because it was "too easy to ruin your stats".  But that same system was present in the Diablo games and it was heralded as one of its best points.  

    For a very long time now, Blizzard has been taking a lot of choice away from character development in favor of balance and accessibility.  I'm not saying that's wrong.  I mean, hell they have over 10 million subscribers.  I'm just saying it's not my cup of tea.  

    You ask how much custmization is too much? I'm not sure, for me, there is a limit.  But how little customization is too little (again for me)? This new talent system.

    Edit: Oh, and I do see your point about the old trees.  Again, I'm not saying they were "the bestest".  But another poster in this  thread put it well.  You used to have something every level that made your character yours. If you wanted to raid, chances are you had to follow certain "builds".  But for me, I was playing my characters my way, and the simply act of choosing how my character grew every level is gone now.  It's something that I enjoyed, even if it was faulted.  But now, it's just not there.

    I'm not trying to prove you wrong, Xiaoki.  I'm just laying out my point of view in hopes that you can understand it even if you disagree.  Because, you know... disagreement is okay.  :)



    So, you liked spending the talent points every level even though you knew that most of your decisions were pointless or for talents that were useless?


    "you have the illusion of choice"
    - George Carlin


    I just hope this personal bias doesnt influence the final review. But we'll see.

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