Back to the drawing board?

Galadourn · October 2012

Do you think the negative reaction of the MMO community at the announcement of TESO has forced Zenimax back to the drawing board to redesign core aspects of the game? It's been 4 months of almost complete radio silence.

karmath · October 2012

Originally posted by Galadourn
Do you think the negative reaction of the MMO community at the announcement of TESO has forced Zenimax back to the drawing board to redesign core aspects of the game? It's been 4 months of almost complete radio silence.

Its been in development for far too long for any massive sweeping changes. Before the release of skyrim and in the height of the oblivion modding scene everyone was asking/talking about a TES MMO but at every turn we were flat out lied to.

If they actually worked with the community instead of keeping it a secret and lying about it, the game would have been met with nothing but praise. Myself and many other oblivion modders would have glady donated our time and skills to the game, cutting down their costs or working on things that are apparently 'too hard' for their dev team like player housing and sandbox features.

shamus252 · October 2012

Doubt it.

dariuszp · October 2012

Nope, it's business. No one will throw away 5 years of work. They will end up like TOR. 5 years, hundreds of millions and game went down after 2 months and end up as F2P in less than a year while they were saying over and over that it's not an option for quite some time.

Zylaxx · October 2012

Nope, I think TESo will be an amazing game and quite possibly a sleeper hit. Alot of elements make sense and are stuff that gamers ahve been asking for, for a long time.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/development-faq/

Deivos · October 2012

I'm genrally with others in assuming it will hit an initial box sale swell and then it's playerbase will rapidly fall off.

They aren't overly likely to be changing the game itself drastically, but they are probably reconsidering their marketing at the moment and waiting until they have more solid elements to show for pulling people in.

Zylaxx · October 2012

Originally posted by Deivos
I'm genrally with others in assuming it will hit an initial box sale swell and then it's playerbase will rapidly fall off.

They aren't overly likely to be changing the game itself drastically, but they are probably reconsidering their marketing at the moment and waiting until they have more solid elements to show for pulling people in.

What makes you think the playerbase will fall off? Other then the fact that every MMO has this problem except WoW? You could very well be right but I would like to know your reasoning for it.

I wont possibly attempt to see int othe future to determine anything about the game excpet for how I feel. Which is I love pretty much every design choice so far, and if they can deliver a solid gamign experience with plenty of innovation and emergent gameplay then im in.

Deivos · October 2012

Generally it's player perception of what one is receiving. I commented to you before briefly on the similarity of GW2 in an overall if not specific sense, and I see that as one of the things that may affect players valuing this game.Essentially, the niche has been taken for such people.

The next thing that would cause faloff would the people doing a blind test of the game. Those that come from outside expereince with the title series and simply won't agree with what they are playing due to difference in preferences.

You also have the crowd that will try a game regardless and that's as far as they go.

All in all though I just perceive it that the audience they are garnering is a mix of those who have been spoken for, those that only have a nebulous theory of what they want, and a more generalist crowd. Overall what it feels to me is that the audience they are targeting is some of the more finicky types.

Add to that the very real trend that most have faced over time and that they are selling a major part of this game on it's title at the moment until they have concrete things to show off, and you have a game that's designed at it's base to sell copies without any mention of how many they are likely to retain.

The retention is more speculative as it's a subject matter og the game's content with is generally just described and not experienced yet, but I personally have not favored what I've been told and I see plenty of groups that do not favor it but are quite likely to give it a whirl based on it's name only to be turned off later as it's just not the game they were expecting or the kind of game they enjoy.

EDIT: I guess that's an aspect worth noting. You read the game description and like it. I read it and don't. That's going to itself slant our opinion towards or against the title.

Galadourn · October 2012

Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Deivos
I'm genrally with others in assuming it will hit an initial box sale swell and then it's playerbase will rapidly fall off.

They aren't overly likely to be changing the game itself drastically, but they are probably reconsidering their marketing at the moment and waiting until they have more solid elements to show for pulling people in.

What makes you think the playerbase will fall off? Other then the fact that every MMO has this problem except WoW? You could very well be right but I would like to know your reasoning for it.

I wont possibly attempt to see int othe future to determine anything about the game excpet for how I feel. Which is I love pretty much every design choice so far, and if they can deliver a solid gamign experience with plenty of innovation and emergent gameplay then im in.

I believe that's the main concern, that the features list is too 'been there done that' so far...

Methos12 · October 2012

I doubt it, but considering their grand reveal was pretty much "we stole the story presentation from TOR and everything else from GW2, but divorced the game from everything signature TES" I'd like them to go back to the drawing. Hell, if Mortal Online with a team of amateur devs can pull off first person real-time combat than I don't see why Zenimax can't with god knows how many millions of dollars backing them up. There's not one thing about TESO that has me interested at the moment.

xmenty · October 2012

This is my personal opinion from observation of TESO info.

I do not really feel excited about it.

Firstly they make Hero Engines as a guideline for their MMO.

You could see from the game graphics look more dated than Skyrim.

2013 launch day and there is still not a single gameplay video yet?

The vibes from Dev video, seems to me that they lack confident and excitement at their own product.

I just felt that they had fk it up and trying to salvage a lot of stuff hence the silence.

Hence, they had to bring in Todd Howard to salvage the mess they had make.

Zylaxx · October 2012

Originally posted by Deivos
Generally it's player perception of what one is receiving. I commented to you before briefly on the similarity of GW2 in an overall if not specific sense, and I see that as one of the things that may affect players valuing this game.Essentially, the niche has been taken for such people.

The next thing that would cause faloff would the people doing a blind test of the game. Those that come from outside expereince with the title series and simply won't agree with what they are playing due to difference in preferences.

You also have the crowd that will try a game regardless and that's as far as they go.

All in all though I just perceive it that the audience they are garnering is a mix of those who have been spoken for, those that only have a nebulous theory of what they want, and a more generalist crowd. Overall what it feels to me is that the audience they are targeting is some of the more finicky types.

Add to that the very real trend that most have faced over time and that they are selling a major part of this game on it's title at the moment until they have concrete things to show off, and you have a game that's designed at it's base to sell copies without any mention of how many they are likely to retain.

The retention is more speculative as it's a subject matter og the game's content with is generally just described and not experienced yet, but I personally have not favored what I've been told and I see plenty of groups that do not favor it but are quite likely to give it a whirl based on it's name only to be turned off later as it's just not the game they were expecting or the kind of game they enjoy.

EDIT: I guess that's an aspect worth noting. You read the game description and like it. I read it and don't. That's going to itself slant our opinion towards or against the title.

I can agree with that assessment somewhat. Thanks for sharing. Maybe the fan in me belives that the newness of something fresh (non-WoW clone) will be cause for my assessment of it being a sleeper hit. I could be wrong though, but just as much as I think you could be wrong. Time will tell.

Zylaxx · October 2012

Originally posted by Methos12
I doubt it, but considering their grand reveal was pretty much "we stole the story presentation from TOR and everything else from GW2, but divorced the game from everything signature TES" I'd like them to go back to the drawing. Hell, if Mortal Online with a team of amateur devs can pull off first person real-time combat than I don't see why Zenimax can't with god knows how many millions of dollars backing them up. There's not one thing about TESO that has me interested at the moment.

As ive stated before First Person perspective is a niche audience. The TESO devs have stated you will be able to play in that perspective but it wont be as good as 3rd person. Same thing Todd Howard said about Skyrim. I was so excited to hear that Skyrim can be played in 3rd person but in practice, it failed. Which was greatly dissapointing. As an MMO fan first and foremost, I am and will always remain partial to 3rd person and it was one of two reasons why I never finished Skyrim. The other being the combat sucked. I just like having abilities on a hotbar to use. I feel its more intuitive and exciting to being able to execute an attack anility from a hotbar as opposed to side strafing for a counter attack, or sprinting toward the enemey for a power attack. Personal preference only.

kaiser3282 · October 2012

Originally posted by xmenty
This is my personal opinion from observation of TESO info.

I do not really feel excited about it.

Firstly they make Hero Engines as a guideline for their MMO.

You could see from the game graphics look more dated than Skyrim.

2013 launch day and there is still not a single gameplay video yet?

The vibes from Dev video, seems to me that they lack confident and excitement at their own product.

I just felt that they had fk it up and trying to salvage a lot of stuff hence the silence.

Hence, they had to bring in Todd Howard to salvage the mess they had make.

Just want to point out that

a) This game has been in development since before Skyrim even began development. So yes, the game is technically more dated anyway.

b) its not being made by the same people who made Skyrim, or any of the TES games. Of course its not going to look the same

c) Its an MMO, not a single player game. When have you ever seen an MMO that has better graphics than some of the best looking single player games created around the same time? Theres technical reasons for this. If you want an MMO that is unplayable when more than a few people are together, then yeah they could make MMOs that look as good as Skyrim.

d) We're not even in 2013. It could be a full year + away. Plenty of games dont have gameplay vids yet when still over a year away from launch. Some of you seem to interpret a launch in 2013 as "its launching at the beggining of 2013"

Zylaxx · October 2012

Originally posted by Galadourn
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Deivos
I'm genrally with others in assuming it will hit an initial box sale swell and then it's playerbase will rapidly fall off.

They aren't overly likely to be changing the game itself drastically, but they are probably reconsidering their marketing at the moment and waiting until they have more solid elements to show for pulling people in.

What makes you think the playerbase will fall off? Other then the fact that every MMO has this problem except WoW? You could very well be right but I would like to know your reasoning for it.

I wont possibly attempt to see int othe future to determine anything about the game excpet for how I feel. Which is I love pretty much every design choice so far, and if they can deliver a solid gamign experience with plenty of innovation and emergent gameplay then im in.

I believe that's the main concern, that the features list is too 'been there done that' so far...

Whats been there and done that about the feature list? I see plenty, like almost everything different from anything else ever done to see a clone in there. It has plenty of elements of DAoC and GW2 but those are 2 MMO's that are so unlike anything ever created before. Its a million times better then having a WoW clone. I would rather have elements of GW2 and DAoC then soemthing that has been done in every MMO since 2005.

kaiser3282 · October 2012

Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Methos12
I doubt it, but considering their grand reveal was pretty much "we stole the story presentation from TOR and everything else from GW2, but divorced the game from everything signature TES" I'd like them to go back to the drawing. Hell, if Mortal Online with a team of amateur devs can pull off first person real-time combat than I don't see why Zenimax can't with god knows how many millions of dollars backing them up. There's not one thing about TESO that has me interested at the moment.

As ive stated before First Person perspective is a niche audience. The TESO devs have stated you will be able to play in that perspective but it wont be as good as 3rd person. Same thing Todd Howard said about Skyrim. I was so excited to hear that Skyrim can be played in 3rd person but in practice, it failed. Which was greatly dissapointing. As an MMO fan first and foremost, I am and will always remain partial to 3rd person and it was one of two reasons why I never finished Skyrim. The other being the combat sucked. I just like having abilities on a hotbar to use. I feel its more intuitive and exciting to being able to execute an attack anility from a hotbar as opposed to side strafing for a counter attack, or sprinting toward the enemey for a power attack. Personal preference only.

The millions and millions of people who buy & play FPS games as well as TES, Fallout, and similar games arent exactly a "niche audience".

The fact that the option to play in 1st person exists is kind of ridiculous. Yes the option is there. But we dont need them to tell us its not as "good" as 3rd personin a tab target / non twitch game. We know from every MMO that allows for both 3rd and 1st person that people in 3rd person have a huge advantage for obvious reasons. Some of those reasons include things like 3rd person MMOs do not require aim so there is no purpose to being in 1st person for accuracy, and 3rd person gives a much larger field of view allowing you to see around and behind you which prevents people from sneaking up on you. Playing in 1st personw hile everyone else is in 3rd is gimping yourself in these types of games.

Comparing the 2 in the same game is pointless. You need to compare 2 completely different games. One which is developed around 1st person gameplay vs one developed around 3rd person gameplay. Its not a simple matter of being able to see in 1st person that people are unhappy with. Its the twitch style gameplay that goes along with it vs tab targetting.

AdamTM · October 2012

Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Methos12
I doubt it, but considering their grand reveal was pretty much "we stole the story presentation from TOR and everything else from GW2, but divorced the game from everything signature TES" I'd like them to go back to the drawing. Hell, if Mortal Online with a team of amateur devs can pull off first person real-time combat than I don't see why Zenimax can't with god knows how many millions of dollars backing them up. There's not one thing about TESO that has me interested at the moment.

As ive stated before First Person perspective is a niche audience. The TESO devs have stated you will be able to play in that perspective but it wont be as good as 3rd person. Same thing Todd Howard said about Skyrim. I was so excited to hear that Skyrim can be played in 3rd person but in practice, it failed. Which was greatly dissapointing. As an MMO fan first and foremost, I am and will always remain partial to 3rd person and it was one of two reasons why I never finished Skyrim. The other being the combat sucked. I just like having abilities on a hotbar to use. I feel its more intuitive and exciting to being able to execute an attack anility from a hotbar as opposed to side strafing for a counter attack, or sprinting toward the enemey for a power attack. Personal preference only.

The millions and millions of people who buy & play FPS games as well as TES, Fallout, and similar games arent exactly a "niche audience".

The fact that the option to play in 1st person exists is kind of ridiculous. Yes the option is there. But we dont need them to tell us its not as "good" as 3rd personin a tab target / non twitch game. We know from every MMO that allows for both 3rd and 1st person that people in 3rd person have a huge advantage for obvious reasons. Some of those reasons include things like 3rd person MMOs do not require aim so there is no purpose to being in 1st person for accuracy, and 3rd person gives a much larger field of view allowing you to see around and behind you which prevents people from sneaking up on you. Playing in 1st personw hile everyone else is in 3rd is gimping yourself in these types of games.

Comparing the 2 in the same game is pointless. You need to compare 2 completely different games. One which is developed around 1st person gameplay vs one developed around 3rd person gameplay. Its not a simple matter of being able to see in 1st person that people are unhappy with. Its the twitch style gameplay that goes along with it vs tab targetting.

The funny thing is, every gameplay presentation of every TES game to date from Bethesda shows heavy emphasis for FPP play, not TPP.

If Bethesda wanted to promote a TPP playstyle, they would actually show the gameplay in TPP, but they know that the immersion and the uniqueness of TES is the FP perspective.

RPGs don't tend to be played in FPP (Deus Ex and Vampire Bloodlines are two games that do, but they are modern FPS settings), thats why TES's fantasy niche owns this kind of gameplay.

JWTuna · October 2012

I just got back from the future, and TES mmo is amazing!

...What do you mean time travel is impossible?

...O, then I guess I just based that comment on jacksht, because I, like everyone else know nothing/very little about this game so shouldnt be passing judgement on something that may not even be out for another year.

We get it already...Its not the same people making this game, its not going to be the same as past titles because its an mmo, its using this engine, wait no its using that engine...The grass in that screen shot appeared to be 2 shades lighter than in oblivion. I saw two crows fly past my window at 3.24 yesterday afternoon, that proves that 3 months after launch initial subscriptions will decline by 23.7%.

Give it a rest already. If i was developing this game id be pulling my hair out..."Theres no sample gameplay, they must be hiding something!". But if they released some, then it would be "crap, im not going near it" because you'd convieniently forgot its STILL IN DEVELOPMENT.

If you are excited about it, great! If you are not, nobody cares!

Zylaxx · October 2012

Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Methos12
I doubt it, but considering their grand reveal was pretty much "we stole the story presentation from TOR and everything else from GW2, but divorced the game from everything signature TES" I'd like them to go back to the drawing. Hell, if Mortal Online with a team of amateur devs can pull off first person real-time combat than I don't see why Zenimax can't with god knows how many millions of dollars backing them up. There's not one thing about TESO that has me interested at the moment.

As ive stated before First Person perspective is a niche audience. The TESO devs have stated you will be able to play in that perspective but it wont be as good as 3rd person. Same thing Todd Howard said about Skyrim. I was so excited to hear that Skyrim can be played in 3rd person but in practice, it failed. Which was greatly dissapointing. As an MMO fan first and foremost, I am and will always remain partial to 3rd person and it was one of two reasons why I never finished Skyrim. The other being the combat sucked. I just like having abilities on a hotbar to use. I feel its more intuitive and exciting to being able to execute an attack anility from a hotbar as opposed to side strafing for a counter attack, or sprinting toward the enemey for a power attack. Personal preference only.

The millions and millions of people who buy & play FPS games as well as TES, Fallout, and similar games arent exactly a "niche audience".

The fact that the option to play in 1st person exists is kind of ridiculous. Yes the option is there. But we dont need them to tell us its not as "good" as 3rd personin a tab target / non twitch game. We know from every MMO that allows for both 3rd and 1st person that people in 3rd person have a huge advantage for obvious reasons. Some of those reasons include things like 3rd person MMOs do not require aim so there is no purpose to being in 1st person for accuracy, and 3rd person gives a much larger field of view allowing you to see around and behind you which prevents people from sneaking up on you. Playing in 1st personw hile everyone else is in 3rd is gimping yourself in these types of games.

Comparing the 2 in the same game is pointless. You need to compare 2 completely different games. One which is developed around 1st person gameplay vs one developed around 3rd person gameplay. Its not a simple matter of being able to see in 1st person that people are unhappy with. Its the twitch style gameplay that goes along with it vs tab targetting.

Ok let me say it like this: In the MMO universe, First Person and people who prefer first person combat is niche. The vast majority of gamers in the MMO genre prefer 3rd person combat. 1st person is the purview of FPS and certain single player RPG's. Jsut like Isometric view is the purview of Action Games and RTS's.

The option to play 1st person is available, but as stated by the devs, it isnt optimal. So at least you have the option. I dont have the option to play Call of Duty in 3rd person since that is the perspective I enjoy the most so feel thankful you at least get the option.

xmenty · October 2012

Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by xmenty
This is my personal opinion from observation of TESO info.

I do not really feel excited about it.

Firstly they make Hero Engines as a guideline for their MMO.

You could see from the game graphics look more dated than Skyrim.

2013 launch day and there is still not a single gameplay video yet?

The vibes from Dev video, seems to me that they lack confident and excitement at their own product.

I just felt that they had fk it up and trying to salvage a lot of stuff hence the silence.

Hence, they had to bring in Todd Howard to salvage the mess they had make.

Just want to point out that

a) This game has been in development since before Skyrim even began development. So yes, the game is technically more dated anyway.

Then Archeage and Blade & Soul should have the same dated graphics like TESO?

b) its not being made by the same people who made Skyrim, or any of the TES games. Of course its not going to look the same

Doesn't matter who make the game. The only thing matter whether did they employ the right person to do the job.

c) Its an MMO, not a single player game. When have you ever seen an MMO that has better graphics than some of the best looking single player games created around the same time? Theres technical reasons for this. If you want an MMO that is unplayable when more than a few people are together, then yeah they could make MMOs that look as good as Skyrim.

Have you seen the difference graphic update by the game that are going to launch in 2013 yet? This game is not made by some unknown indie company. They have the budget to push the tech to be better than GW2, Archeage or Blade & Soul.

d) We're not even in 2013. It could be a full year + away. Plenty of games dont have gameplay vids yet when still over a year away from launch. Some of you seem to interpret a launch in 2013 as "its launching at the beggining of 2013"

Gamescom 2010: Guild Wars 2 Presentation gameplay video on 21 Aug 2010 - Launched date 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VLpW8DCXbo

Archeage gameplay preview 9 Jul 2010 - Launch date 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ARqR4nftHA

You need to have confident in your products.

Mike-McQueen · October 2012

They probably had a lot they were gonna roll out after announcement but pulled back to regroup after the poor initial response they recieved. They are likely scrambling for some hook to reel all us fish in. Although sink or swim, let's face it they already have our money.

kaiser3282 · October 2012

Originally posted by xmenty
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by xmenty
This is my personal opinion from observation of TESO info.

I do not really feel excited about it.

Firstly they make Hero Engines as a guideline for their MMO.

You could see from the game graphics look more dated than Skyrim.

2013 launch day and there is still not a single gameplay video yet?

The vibes from Dev video, seems to me that they lack confident and excitement at their own product.

I just felt that they had fk it up and trying to salvage a lot of stuff hence the silence.

Hence, they had to bring in Todd Howard to salvage the mess they had make.

Just want to point out that

a) This game has been in development since before Skyrim even began development. So yes, the game is technically more dated anyway.

Then Archeage and Blade & Soul should have the same dated graphics like TESO?

Completely different engines. Different engine = different looks.

b) its not being made by the same people who made Skyrim, or any of the TES games. Of course its not going to look the same

Doesn't matter who make the game. The only thing matter whether did they employ the right person to do the job.

Does a car made by one company look exactly like a car made by a different company? No. Does that mean one of those cars is bad and the engineers / designers didnt do their job?

c) Its an MMO, not a single player game. When have you ever seen an MMO that has better graphics than some of the best looking single player games created around the same time? Theres technical reasons for this. If you want an MMO that is unplayable when more than a few people are together, then yeah they could make MMOs that look as good as Skyrim.

Have you seen the difference graphic update by the game that are going to launch in 2013 yet? This game is not made by some unknown indie company. They have the budget to push the tech to be better than GW2, Archeage or Blade & Soul.

Again this comes down to different engines running the games. If TESO used the same engine of either of those, it would look just as good. Just like there are some games coming out soon that look amazing, others dont look so great. Does that make them bad games? Only if you think graphics are everything. There have always been games that look amazing, but play like complete crap. Id rather have gameplay over graphics.

d) We're not even in 2013. It could be a full year + away. Plenty of games dont have gameplay vids yet when still over a year away from launch. Some of you seem to interpret a launch in 2013 as "its launching at the beggining of 2013"

Gamescom 2010: Guild Wars 2 Presentation gameplay video on 21 Aug 2010 - Launched date 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VLpW8DCXbo

Archeage gameplay preview 9 Jul 2010 - Launch date 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ARqR4nftHA

I didnt say no game ever has released gameplay videos ahead of time. Just that there are plenty of games that dont release them until very close to release, like in beta stage. Thats a simple fact. Not every company operates the same way. in GW2's case, the gameplay itself was already pretty much completed, the time between those videos and release was adding new features and making some tweaks to the game. in TESOs case, we dont really know what stage theyre at in development yet. Perhaps they dont have the engine and gameplay mechanics fully functioning yet. It isnt even in alpha as far as we know, and there has been no mention of one coming anytime soon. What would be the point of releasing gameplay videos from a game pre-alpha that for all we know could change drastically.

You need to have confident in your products.

I agree. They seemed to be confident at first, but not so much anymore. Hopefully that means theyre reconsidering at least a few changes and dont want to show one thing, then wind up coming out with another.

fenistil · October 2012

They are developing this game for years and it is in late production stage. So it is almost certain that they are not going to change game core design. They may change some things, but not game fundaments.

ShakyMo · October 2012

Having fps quality graphics in a mmo a.d the associated minimum system requirements limits your population on a mmo. Just ask funcom or bluehole.

Galadourn · October 2012

I'd bet most of those 5 years in development were spent on the game engine and designing the world. They still have time to re-do even basic concepts of the game, if they see that the market is getting saturated; which, now with the launch of GW2, is...

SEANMCAD · October 2012

Originally posted by Galadourn
Do you think the negative reaction of the MMO community at the announcement of TESO has forced Zenimax back to the drawing board to redesign core aspects of the game? It's been 4 months of almost complete radio silence.

yes but two things to keep in mind.

1. they will try to patch it and the features they try to patch may or may not work. I have seen FPV view done by modding community on Neverwinter and it really wasnt any good, expect something like that.

2. they have demonstrated that they will never do what is ultimatly best for business which is admit they did wrong and explictly state they will do al they can to make it right, they will instead approach it like a poltician and say things like 'what? no we never said that we here is FPV view isnt it cool?"

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