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Zenimax Online has crippled ESOs core player base

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  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

    1. Hero Engine Debacle

    When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

    Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

    2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

    Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

    3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

    So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

    But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

    The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

    In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

    So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

    Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

    Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

    First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

    And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

    Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

    Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

     

    In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

     

    No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

    The numbers deceive you.

    2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

    250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

    Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

    Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

    Even at the time of ESO's inception, Oblivion outsold DAOC's peak numbers on PC by over double.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

    1. Hero Engine Debacle

    When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

    Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

    2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

    Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

    3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

    So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

    But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

    The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

    In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

    So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

    Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

    Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

    First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

    And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

    Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

    Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

     

    In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

     

    No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

    The numbers deceive you.

    2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

    250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

    Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

    Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

    7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

     

    DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

    1. Hero Engine Debacle

    When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

    Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

    2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

    Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

    3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

    So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

    But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

    The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

    In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

    So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

    Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

    Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

    First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

    And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

    Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

    Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

     

    In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

     

    No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

    The numbers deceive you.

    2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

    250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

    Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

    Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

    7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

     

    DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

    No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

    Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

    You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

    At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

    Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

    In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

    Good luck with that.

    PS: even with all 250,000, 7.5 years to break even.  Not a good timeframe.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

    Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

    LOL no it is not using a heavily modified version of the Skyrim engine, NOWHERE does it say that.  They built their own engine from scratch after the Hero engine was used as a prototyping system.

    Of the 11 million Skyrim sales to date, approximately 2.5 million of those were on the PC.  That's more users than any MMO has ever launched with.  SWTOR came close at 2.1 million.

    Also, the move to add Mac support will allow many console gamers, who might have a Mac instead of a PC, to connect as well.

    There is no solid dividing line between PC and console gamers, I have a PC, a 360 and a PS3.  My girlfriend has a Wii so that completes the console trifecta in our household.  PC is my main gaming platform, but I have the other consoles for exclusives I might want to try.  There is a lot of cross-pollination and many people who bought Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 might have had a computer that could run it, but didn't bother because they prefer the controller, the couch and/or the big-screen tv.

    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    I could care less what TES fans think or believe.  As a fan of RvR content, and open world PvE freedom of exploration style content I coudlnt be happier.  IMO they have the best of both worlds in TES and DAoC while culling the stuff that sucked.  Like DAoC's grind centric camp spawning PvE and TES FPS combat and boring and archaic combat.

    As I said before, this is not a core userbase, this is roughly 500 people who will come to this game just for the RvR.  How many people still play DAOC?  If it was that amazing, trumping all other issues, it would have kept that audience, but it's not, it's actually rather boring after about a month, becuase there's nothing dynamic, it is the same boring game of tug-of-war over and over.

    The OP's assessment is fair, their core userbase is/was TES fans and they utterly squandered it.  What do they have left: 250,000 or so MMO nomads who will go back to WoW once they've reached max level and 500-1000 hardcore RvR nutjobs who hang out in Cyrodiil the whole time.

    Hope and wishful thinking doesnt mean nothing whne talking of statistics.  Any and every poll about DAoC has always claimed it to be one of the greatest MMO's in the history of the genre and any poll taken today will show alot of old school vets want a rebirth of DAoC.  What better way then with a reconizable IP.  Where did you come up with this scientific number of 500 [eople anyway?  You do realize that MMORPG.com is not the only MMO forum right?  There are potentially millions of gamers that want something like this.  I also pulled that number out of my ass but unlike you, I have history, an d countless forums posts to back it up.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

    Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

    LOL no it is not using a heavily modified version of the Skyrim engine, NOWHERE does it say that.  They built their own engine from scratch after the Hero engine was used as a prototyping system.

    Of the 11 million Skyrim sales to date, approximately 2.5 million of those were on the PC.  That's more users than any MMO has ever launched with.  SWTOR came close at 2.1 million.

    Also, the move to add Mac support will allow many console gamers, who might have a Mac instead of a PC, to connect as well.

    There is no solid dividing line between PC and console gamers, I have a PC, a 360 and a PS3.  My girlfriend has a Wii so that completes the console trifecta in our household.  PC is my main gaming platform, but I have the other consoles for exclusives I might want to try.  There is a lot of cross-pollination and many people who bought Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 might have had a computer that could run it, but didn't bother because they prefer the controller, the couch and/or the big-screen tv.

    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    I could care less what TES fans think or believe.  As a fan of RvR content, and open world PvE freedom of exploration style content I coudlnt be happier.  IMO they have the best of both worlds in TES and DAoC while culling the stuff that sucked.  Like DAoC's grind centric camp spawning PvE and TES FPS combat and boring and archaic combat.

    As I said before, this is not a core userbase, this is roughly 500 people who will come to this game just for the RvR.  How many people still play DAOC?  If it was that amazing, trumping all other issues, it would have kept that audience, but it's not, it's actually rather boring after about a month, becuase there's nothing dynamic, it is the same boring game of tug-of-war over and over.

    The OP's assessment is fair, their core userbase is/was TES fans and they utterly squandered it.  What do they have left: 250,000 or so MMO nomads who will go back to WoW once they've reached max level and 500-1000 hardcore RvR nutjobs who hang out in Cyrodiil the whole time.

    Hope and wishful thinking doesnt mean nothing whne talking of statistics.  Any and every poll about DAoC has always claimed it to be one of the greatest MMO's in the history of the genre and any poll taken today will show alot of old school vets want a rebirth of DAoC.  What better way then with a reconizable IP.  Where did you come up with this scientific number of 500 [eople anyway?  You do realize that MMORPG.com is not the only MMO forum right?  There are potentially millions of gamers that want something like this.  I also pulled that number out of my ass but unlike you, I have history, an d countless forums posts to back it up.

    Please, I emplore you, show me one of these "polls."

    Also, I gave you a much more generous sampling above, enjoy, ;)

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

    1. Hero Engine Debacle

    When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

    Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

    2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

    Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

    3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

    So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

    But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

    The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

    In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

    So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

    Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

    Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

    First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

    And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

    Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

    Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

     

    In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

     

    No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

    The numbers deceive you.

    2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

    250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

    Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

    Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

    7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

     

    DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

    No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

    Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

    You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

    At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

    Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

    In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

    Good luck with that.

    Again you are dismissing the fact that the MMO market is hundreds, if not thousands of times greater then it was in 2002.  I can also scientifically prove using statistics that is 250k players (out of the 1million of that time) liked and consider DAoC to be one of the best MMO's on the market in 2002, it isnt out of the realm of impossiblity to extrapolate that number into todays market share.  Say 20 million MMO players today (and thats being very conservative) out of that, 25% will play TESO.  Those are astronomically high numbe rs of potential players.  Now I am not saying TESO will have a playerbase of 5 million but it sure as hell will have alot more then 250K just by using common sense and reasoning quatifiable by statistics.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

    Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

    LOL no it is not using a heavily modified version of the Skyrim engine, NOWHERE does it say that.  They built their own engine from scratch after the Hero engine was used as a prototyping system.

    Of the 11 million Skyrim sales to date, approximately 2.5 million of those were on the PC.  That's more users than any MMO has ever launched with.  SWTOR came close at 2.1 million.

    Also, the move to add Mac support will allow many console gamers, who might have a Mac instead of a PC, to connect as well.

    There is no solid dividing line between PC and console gamers, I have a PC, a 360 and a PS3.  My girlfriend has a Wii so that completes the console trifecta in our household.  PC is my main gaming platform, but I have the other consoles for exclusives I might want to try.  There is a lot of cross-pollination and many people who bought Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 might have had a computer that could run it, but didn't bother because they prefer the controller, the couch and/or the big-screen tv.

    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    I could care less what TES fans think or believe.  As a fan of RvR content, and open world PvE freedom of exploration style content I coudlnt be happier.  IMO they have the best of both worlds in TES and DAoC while culling the stuff that sucked.  Like DAoC's grind centric camp spawning PvE and TES FPS combat and boring and archaic combat.

    As I said before, this is not a core userbase, this is roughly 500 people who will come to this game just for the RvR.  How many people still play DAOC?  If it was that amazing, trumping all other issues, it would have kept that audience, but it's not, it's actually rather boring after about a month, becuase there's nothing dynamic, it is the same boring game of tug-of-war over and over.

    The OP's assessment is fair, their core userbase is/was TES fans and they utterly squandered it.  What do they have left: 250,000 or so MMO nomads who will go back to WoW once they've reached max level and 500-1000 hardcore RvR nutjobs who hang out in Cyrodiil the whole time.

    Hope and wishful thinking doesnt mean nothing whne talking of statistics.  Any and every poll about DAoC has always claimed it to be one of the greatest MMO's in the history of the genre and any poll taken today will show alot of old school vets want a rebirth of DAoC.  What better way then with a reconizable IP.  Where did you come up with this scientific number of 500 [eople anyway?  You do realize that MMORPG.com is not the only MMO forum right?  There are potentially millions of gamers that want something like this.  I also pulled that number out of my ass but unlike you, I have history, an d countless forums posts to back it up.

    Please, I emplore you, show me one of these "polls."

    Also, I gave you a much more generous sampling above, enjoy, ;)

    Google best MMO of all time, usually DAoC falls within the top 10 of every gaming website.

     

    http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=toolbar-instant&hl=en&ion=1&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4GZAB_enUS449US449#hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4GZAB_enUS449US449&sclient=psy-ab&q=greatest%20MMO%20of%20all%20time&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=9dac06e9a9126a6e&bpcl=35277026&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1676&bih=765

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

    1. Hero Engine Debacle

    When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

    Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

    2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

    Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

    3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

    So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

    But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

    The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

    In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

    So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

    Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

    Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

    First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

    And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

    Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

    Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

     

    In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

     

    No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

    The numbers deceive you.

    2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

    250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

    Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

    Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

    7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

     

    DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

    No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

    Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

    You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

    At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

    Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

    In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

    Good luck with that.

    Again you are dismissing the fact that the MMO market is hundreds, if not thousands of times greater then it was in 2002.  I can also scientifically prove using statistics that is 250k players (out of the 1million of that time) liked and consider DAoC to be one of the best MMO's on the market in 2002, it isnt out of the realm of impossiblity to extrapolate that number into todays market share.  Say 20 million MMO players today (and thats being very conservative) out of that, 25% will play TESO.  Those are astronomically high numbe rs of potential players.  Now I am not saying TESO will have a playerbase of 5 million but it sure as hell will have alot more then 250K just by using common sense and reasoning quatifiable by statistics.

    Let me spell this out for you very specifically, because you do not understand how this works:

    THE. ONLY. PEOPLE. WHO. CAN. LONG. FOR. DAOC'S. RVR. ARE. PEOPLE. WHO. PLAYED. DAOC.

    THAT. IS. 250,000. PEOPLE.

    Those people do not "inflate" in some way, no extrapolation possible.  No one who hasn't played DAOC longs for DAOC's RvR.  There is no expansion of their people.

    Again, link the polls, link that so-called proof.  If you can show me 20 million votes, or 250,000, or even 25,000, I'll even accept 2,500 voting for RvR in a poll that includes RvR, FFA, and Instanced PvP then I will concede.

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 390Member Uncommon

    Of all the available IPs, the Elder Scrolls world was the one that seemed tailor made for a sandbox type of game.  All of the single player Elder Scroll games are basically sandbox type games especially when you include player mods.

    The lore was all there ready to go and you would have had one sandbow MMO game that people would platy for two reasons.  One, because it is a sandbox game and every other triple A MMO is a themepark game, and two because it is Elder Scrolls.

    They basically shot themselves in the both feet, pissing off the MMO crowd who are not going to play yet another themepark WOW clone.  And they piss off Elder Scrolls fans because the game has ZERO to do with any core feature of any Elder Scrolls game.

    And to top it off, this game will baically block the Elder Scrolls IP for about 8 years or so, just like TOR will block any other attempt to make another Star Wars MMO because they do not want competition.

    This game was the worst received MMO I have ever seen.  The day the first news of the features of the game hit, there was not one single person on the forums who was looking forward to the game.

     

    All they are really trying to do is make another DAOC game.  Why screw up the Elder Scrolls lore....who knows.

     

    The only good thing to come out of this is that the single player Elder Scrolls games will continue.  This MMO will tank so hard it will make TOR look like a mass success.

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

    Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

    The Elder Scrolls  world was first released on PC not a console.

    image

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

    1. Hero Engine Debacle

    When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

    Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

    2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

    Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

    3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

    So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

    But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

    The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

    In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

    So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

    Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

    Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

    First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

    And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

    Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

    Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

     

    In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

     

    No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

    The numbers deceive you.

    2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

    250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

    Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

    Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

    7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

     

    DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

    No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

    Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

    You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

    At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

    Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

    In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

    Good luck with that.

    Again you are dismissing the fact that the MMO market is hundreds, if not thousands of times greater then it was in 2002.  I can also scientifically prove using statistics that is 250k players (out of the 1million of that time) liked and consider DAoC to be one of the best MMO's on the market in 2002, it isnt out of the realm of impossiblity to extrapolate that number into todays market share.  Say 20 million MMO players today (and thats being very conservative) out of that, 25% will play TESO.  Those are astronomically high numbe rs of potential players.  Now I am not saying TESO will have a playerbase of 5 million but it sure as hell will have alot more then 250K just by using common sense and reasoning quatifiable by statistics.

    Let me spell this out for you very specifically, because you do not understand how this works:

    THE. ONLY. PEOPLE. WHO. CAN. LONG. FOR. DAOC'S. RVR. ARE. PEOPLE. WHO. PLAYED. DAOC.

    THAT. IS. 250,000. PEOPLE.

    Those people do not "inflate" in some way, no extrapolation possible.  No one who hasn't played DAOC longs for DAOC's RvR.  There is no expansion of their people.

    Again, link the polls, link that so-called proof.  If you can show me 20 million votes, or 250,000, or even 25,000, I'll even accept 2,500 voting for RvR in a poll that includes RvR, FFA, and Instanced PvP then I will concede.

    You honestly believe Zenimax is developing a game with a top end population of 250k players?

     

    Delusional much?  It doesnt take a rocket scientist to use stats of potential players to reason they think alot of players will want to play.  From the TES single player gamers, to the MMO vets.

     

    Again google Top MMO's of all time, DAoC is in the top 10 of just about every list.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    Of all the available IPs, the Elder Scrolls world was the one that seemed tailor made for a sandbox type of game.  All of the single player Elder Scroll games are basically sandbox type games especially when you include player mods.

    The lore was all there ready to go and you would have had one sandbow MMO game that people would platy for two reasons.  One, because it is a sandbox game and every other triple A MMO is a themepark game, and two because it is Elder Scrolls.

    They basically shot themselves in the both feet, pissing off the MMO crowd who are not going to play yet another themepark WOW clone.  And they piss off Elder Scrolls fans because the game has ZERO to do with any core feature of any Elder Scrolls game.

    And to top it off, this game will baically block the Elder Scrolls IP for about 8 years or so, just like TOR will block any other attempt to make another Star Wars MMO because they do not want competition.

    This game was the worst received MMO I have ever seen.  The day the first news of the features of the game hit, there was not one single person on the forums who was looking forward to the game.

     

    All they are really trying to do is make another DAOC game.  Why screw up the Elder Scrolls lore....who knows.

     

    The only good thing to come out of this is that the single player Elder Scrolls games will continue.  This MMO will tank so hard it will make TOR look like a mass success.

    Where do you get your information in saying that TESO will be a thempark game.  There own FAQ says the game world will be open, and hence elder scrolls like.  I suggest you read http://tamrielfoundry.com/development-faq/  You might be pleasently suprised.

     

    The only feature missing I dont agree with is player housing, but they do say it will come at a later time.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
     

    You honestly believe Zenimax is developing a game with a top end population of 250k players?

     

    Delusional much?  It doesnt take a rocket scientist to use stats of potential players to reason they think alot of players will want to play.  From the TES single player gamers, to the MMO vets.

    I don't see any polls you promised, just empty conjecture.

    What I "believe" is that they began development in 2007, when the MMOG horizon was a gold rush of WoW-clones.  Now, after five years of development in one direction, that direction is now turning on them, and they will either adapt or die.

    As their potetnial audience, we have only to wait and watch, and in the mean time to discuss to our heart's content.  Personally, I love train-wrecks, the slower, the better.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

    1. Hero Engine Debacle

    When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

    Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

    2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

    Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

    3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

    So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

    But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

    The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

    In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

    So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

    Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

    Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

    First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

    And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

    Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

    Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

     

    In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

     

    No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

    The numbers deceive you.

    2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

    250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

    Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

    Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

    7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

     

    DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

    No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

    Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

    You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

    At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

    Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

    In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

    Good luck with that.

    Again you are dismissing the fact that the MMO market is hundreds, if not thousands of times greater then it was in 2002.  I can also scientifically prove using statistics that is 250k players (out of the 1million of that time) liked and consider DAoC to be one of the best MMO's on the market in 2002, it isnt out of the realm of impossiblity to extrapolate that number into todays market share.  Say 20 million MMO players today (and thats being very conservative) out of that, 25% will play TESO.  Those are astronomically high numbe rs of potential players.  Now I am not saying TESO will have a playerbase of 5 million but it sure as hell will have alot more then 250K just by using common sense and reasoning quatifiable by statistics.

     

    Again, link the polls, link that so-called proof.  If you can show me 20 million votes, or 250,000, or even 25,000, I'll even accept 2,500 voting for RvR in a poll that includes RvR, FFA, and Instanced PvP then I will concede.

    1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
    2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 8.16%

    7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 10.20%

    14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 16.33%

    17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
     

    You honestly believe Zenimax is developing a game with a top end population of 250k players?

     

    Delusional much?  It doesnt take a rocket scientist to use stats of potential players to reason they think alot of players will want to play.  From the TES single player gamers, to the MMO vets.

    I don't see any polls you promised, just empty conjecture.

    What I "believe" is that they began development in 2007, when the MMOG horizon was a gold rush of WoW-clones.  Now, after five years of development in one direction, that direction is now turning on them, and they will either adapt or die.

    As their potetnial audience, we have only to wait and watch, and in the mean time to discuss to our heart's content.  Personally, I love train-wrecks, the slower, the better.

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/80808

     

     

    PvP has become a central part of any good MMOG. In fact, there are many players who play PvP almost exclusively as compared to the PvE content of the game world. My only comment is: who can blame them? The thrill of ganking some unsuspecting player fills me with joy. I know it's wrong, but I can't help it. Even though I enjoy raiding and exploring as much as the next person, there is something special about beating another player. There are few things better than knowing you are better than someone else, and it is even better when you get to laugh at them and dance on their poor weak-skilled dead bodies. But with so many pay-to-play MMOGs out there, which ones are the best for ultimate pwnage? Submitted for your approval is my list of the top ten PvP MMOGs.

     

     

     

    10.Lord of the Rings Online
    Lord of The Rings Onlineintroduced a new form of PvP, called PvM (Player vs Monster). The idea here is that players would not fight other players in a Lord of The Rings setting, so the developers had to find some way to let players face each other. Their answer was to allow players to create monsters that could fight players in certain areas. Monsters are not as strong as player characters, but players can strengthen them with Infamy and Destiny points, which they gain by killing players. While not a complex system, it's an interesting take on PvP, and one that works with the lore of the game. Plus, who doesn’t want to be a monster?

    9.Age of Conan
    Decapitations! That's all I should have to say here. You can decapitate enemy players. Let me say that again, "You can decapitate enemy players!" Great combination moves, stealth, mounted combat, and a robust combat system makes Conan a real treat for PvP. Blood actually splatters across your screen as it erupts from the necks of your foes. You can't ask for more than that. (Oh, and did I mention decapitations?) However, ranged classes sometimes have an advantage due to fewer keys to push for those awesome combo moves. (By Crom, the dev who thought that differing amounts of keystrokes for different classes was ok should be punished for eternity!) If it wasn’t for the button pushing imbalance, I would have ranked AOC higher on my list. Decapitations!

    8.Guild Wars
    Guild Wars has a fun and lighthearted PvP system. While lighthearted is seldom linked with PvP, it does work here. Players can enter PvP zones and participate in several different types of PvP. From gladiator style arena fights, to full alliance battles that shape the borders of the world, Guild Warsprovides fun and interesting PvP for players of all skill levels.

    7.Lineage 2
    Lineage 2 was built on PvP. Almost everything in the game relies on what happens with PvP. Lineage uses a Karma system to reward and punish players for their actions. Kill someone and you gain Karma; gain enough Karma and you turn red, meaning other players can kill you without consequences. The only way to work off your Karma is to get out there and kill mobs. So it's a constant balancing act of deciding who to attack, and making sure you can work off your Karma. Or learn how to run real fast!

     

     

     

    6.Aion
    Aiontook PvP in a new and interesting direction by adding in PvPvE. In Aion, players fight each other over fortress and map locations in the Abyss. This is your basic PvP fare, much like you’ll find in many other games out there. What Aiondoes that is unique, though, is add a third computer controlled faction into the mix. When one side takes a location, not only will enemy players defend it, but monsters under the control of AI will also attack, making the point harder to hold onto. This adds a twist for players who will now find it more difficult to hold a location than it was to take it.

    5.Warhammer Online
    Warhammer Online is a PvP dream. Few other games give you the ability to advance entirely through PvP. WAR breaks down the PvP by areas to keep veterans from ganking newbs, but outside of that, you can PvP to your heart’s content. With keeps to capture, scenarios to play, and cities to besiege, Warhammer Onlinegives players several different ways to get their PvP fix. There’s no better sight than to see snotty High Elves and Dwarves fleeing in terror from your mighty Orc rage! I love PvP in WAR, but I had to list it at number five since PvP in the later tiers (mainly tier 4) isn’t as fun as in the earlier tiers. Plus, crowd control becomes a huge issue as you progress through the tiers.

    4.Planetside
    Take a great First Person Shooter, mix it with an MMOG, and what do you get? Planetside!Planetsideis one of those games you just can't help but keep coming back to every few months; it never gets old. Running around, hopping in tanks and planes, and blowing the crap out of each other, is just great fun. No“go out and collect10 toe nail” quests here. Just killing, and proving your skill over your opponents. It is simply a fun game that matches you up against hundreds of other players to see who gets bragging rights. Why quest when you can be killing?

    3.Darkfall
    This one is for you old school Ultima Online fans. If you love the rush of stabbing someone in the back as they fight mobs, or love the thrill of always having to watch for that guy trying to stab you in the back while you fight mobs, then Darkfallis a game you must check out. Unlike PvP in many other games, in Darkfall, you can attack another player almost anywhere. It is one of the most open PvP systems out there, and you better have thick skin, and some mad skills to hang with the players here. With that said, it can be quite rewarding to drop that bastard who attacked you from behind believing you were an easy kill. If you want a hardcore PvP game, Darkfallis hard to beat. If you can’t handle the constant tension, I suggest you play the Care Bear Snuggly Happy Forest MMOG coming out soon. The only thing to fear there is hugs.

    2. Eve Online
    This one isn't for amateurs. Eve Onlineis one seriously bad ass PvP game. With an open sand box style, players must rely on their corporations (guilds) for survival. Where the player-driven economy is such a driving force that corporations fight tooth and nail for control over resources, you better always be looking over your shoulder. Eve does this so well it is one of the very few MMOGs that continue to gain new subscribers as time goes on. I put Eve Onlineat number two due to the fact that the sand box style open PvP nature of the game really rocks. Player driven corporations really drive the action in this game, with the constant fighting over resources. Plus, you can’t beat spaceship combat!

    1.Dark Age of Camelot
    Perhaps the finest example of PvP in an MMOG to date. Dark Age of Camelotgives you what most other games with PvP don't--a reason to do it. With their keep sieges, and relic captures that provide bonuses to the side that captures them, DAOC gives you a tangible reward for PvP. Between this, their 3 faction system that helps make sure one side does not dominate a server, and their siege weapons that are deployable anywhere in the PvP zones, Dark Age still reigns supreme in PvP. This is PvP done right! I am frankly stunned that no other company has used DAOC’s template for 3 faction PvP to keep players engaged on their server and to cut down on server migration of characters.

    Conclusion
    Well, there you have it folks. The top ten PvP MMOGs on the market today. When you get tired of doing that same raid for the 50th time, and you want to try something really challenging, grab one of these games and give it a go. I’ll be waiting to gank you...I mean help you when you get there.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • DeserttFoxxDeserttFoxx North York, ONPosts: 2,360Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

    Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

    You think the elder scrolls is a console game? Let me guess, you havent actually played any elder scrolls game beyond skyrim right?

     

     

    Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy

    Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman

    Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
     
    1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
    2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 8.16%

    7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 10.20%

    14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 16.33%

    17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

    However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

    Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

    2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

    The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

    Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

    I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

    Where is this from, and when?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

    Also, the tentonhammer link I will dismiss, considering that it is one person's opinion, not a poll or sampling of any kind.  That person will probably be very excited for TESO just as you are.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

    Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

    You think the elder scrolls is a console game? Let me guess, you havent actually played any elder scrolls game beyond skyrim right?

     

     

    75% Of skyrims sales is from console so yes the console is the core audience.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
     
    1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
    2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 8.16%

    7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 10.20%

    14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 16.33%

    17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

    However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

    Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

    2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

    The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

    Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

    I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

    Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

    A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
     
    1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
    2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 8.16%

    7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 10.20%

    14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 16.33%

    17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

    However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

    Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

    2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

    The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

    Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

    I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

    Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

    A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

    I edited, but I'll repeat.

    The TenTonHammer piece is one man's opinion, not a poll or sampling, therefore it is dismissed.

    This one puts DAOC at number 5: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/best-p2p-pvp-mmorpgs

    This guy puts it at #3:

    These personal bests are irrelevant.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
     
    1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
    2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 8.16%

    7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 10.20%

    14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 16.33%

    17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

    However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

    Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

    2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

    The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

    Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

    I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

    Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

    A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

    I edited, but I'll repeat.

    The TenTonHammer piece is one man's opinion, not a poll or sampling, therefore it is dismissed.

    This one puts DAOC at number 5: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/best-p2p-pvp-mmorpgs

    This guy puts it at #3:

    These personal bests are irrelevant.

    I'm done with this, I proved conclusively that DAoC was a superb and well recieved game, anyone who played knows so.  The biggest fans of the TES MMO are also ex-DAoC vets.  Nothing more for me to prove but to wait on its release.  Will I think it be a huge success?  Prolly not but it will sell well and do good based on its own merits and not because its a Skyrim (or any other TES) clone.  I and many thousands of fans are looking forward to it so at the end of the day that is all that counts. image

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
     
    1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
    2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 12.24%

    5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 8.16%

    7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 10.20%

    14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 2.04%

    15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 6.12%

    16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 16.33%

    17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

      Percentage of vote: 0.00%

    19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

      Percentage of vote: 4.08%

    20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

    However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

    Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

    2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

    The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

    Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

    I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

    Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

    A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

    I edited, but I'll repeat.

    The TenTonHammer piece is one man's opinion, not a poll or sampling, therefore it is dismissed.

    This one puts DAOC at number 5: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/best-p2p-pvp-mmorpgs

    This guy puts it at #3:

    These personal bests are irrelevant.

    I'm done with this, I proved conclusively that DAoC was a superb and well recieved game, anyone who played knows so.  The biggest fans of the TES MMO are also ex-DAoC vets.  Nothing more for me to prove but to wait on its release.  Will I think it be a huge success?  Prolly not but it will sell well and do good based on its own merits and not because its a Skyrim (or any other TES) clone.  I and many thousands of fans are looking forward to it so at the end of the day that is all that counts. image

    Go ahead and concede defeat, that's fine, as you have proven exactly nothing.

    DAOC was a good game, no one is refuting that, what we are refuting is that its fanbase is a worthy focal fanbase from a marketing standpoint and I have conclusively proven that is is not.

    The only hope for success that TESO has is on the back of the TES brand.  Sadly, as the OP pointed out, they squandered that with their initial barrage of marketing and misinformation.

     

    PS: I saw your "best MMOs" thread, even posted my own top ten.  Sadly DAOC only got 3, maybe 4 mentions out of 3 pages of top tens.  Good try though.

  • Radar11xRadar11x Kansas City, MOPosts: 114Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

    Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

    lol its using the hero engine like SWTOR.

  • SicaeSicae LulePosts: 110Member
    Originally posted by Radar11x
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

    Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

    lol its using the hero engine like SWTOR.

    Its not........and you would know that if you read the OP. In fact your post is proof that he is correct about the hero engine debacle hurting ESO

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,698Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

    Pretty much this

    Zenimax is absolutly clueless regarding TESO

    They are killing  one of the best gaming IP for the sake of few extra box sales, ignoring the long term appeal of the game and therefore the lack of subscription after the first month.

    Zenimax keep saying that some things cannot be done, but that's absolutely bullshit, this kind of mentality is always a recipe for mediocre games.

2
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