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Originally posted by znaiika Originally posted by ShakyMo The game will probably have ffa servers too. I don't see why not, its heavily influenced by daoc and that as well as core servers also had a ffa pvp server called mordred and a coop pve server.
Two different servers, one for pvp and one coop pve?
Why not? that will bring more subs, more subs better maintaining as a whole.
I am not against of having two servers.
I am holding out hope this happens at the very least, but it is very doubtful, since this has been proven to fracture player-bases and that is very bad for an MMO community. Now they just have to fix the combat and make it like TES.
why would WOW players vote RvR?
WOW doesnt have RVR
Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.
TESO is a DAoC remake with aspects of other modern Themepark MMOS thown in, all packaged up in an Elder Scrolls wrapper.
Savior of MMOs? LMAO....hardly.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFTPlaying: SkyrimFollowing: The RepopulationI want a Virtual World, not just a Game.ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Originally posted by PyrateLV TESO is a DAoC remake with aspects of other modern Themepark MMOS thown in, all packaged up in an Elder Scrolls wrapper. Savior of MMOs? LMAO....hardly.
Exactly. How is a minimal amount of innovation going to save MMO's? As though they need saving anyways. Just because you don't like the games doesn't mean they aren't good. There are a few companies who make good money in this industry.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
Originally posted by Fagmod Originally posted by ShakyMo why would WOW players vote RvR? WOW doesnt have RVR
Then what would you call Horde vs Alliance? FFAPvP?
Wow has BGs they don't have any RvR. Also 3 factions makes a huge difference.
saviour of mmos is in the eye of the beholder.
For me it is gw2 .
What mmo is the saviour of mmos for u guys? ^.^
Looking forward to EQL and EQN.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Well, on the PvP servers its almost FFA, without any full-loot systems. It's actually the only real fun to be had in WoW, and they killed that with the flying mounts usable everywhere.
But it's also not RvR, it's more just instanced battlegrounds and arenas. PvP in WoW, unless you're on a PvP server, is about as simple and tame as it gets.
Originally posted by deamian I don't need a savior for any of the 6+ mmo's I currently have installed and play, they all have good qualities and good variety, and none of them have "KILLED" one another.. *gasp*
It would be interesting to know which 6 they are, and if they have a subscription or are F2P.
My currently installed MMOs are:
Darkfall (even though it's going to be wiped soon, it's still tons of fun, sub-based)
Planetside 2 (Beta, f2p but I did drop 40$ on alpha squad because it is an incredibly fun game)
SWG (Emulated pre-NGE server, tons of fun, also has a wipe upcoming, totally free)
Fallen Earth (Freemium - I am not paying any money but it is fun to RP and explore in)
Originally posted by jiveturkey12 Originally posted by MercArcher RvR is a persistent PvP battle between multiple faction over open worl objectives such as forts, towers, ect. WoW has never had this. The closest they had to it was the vault control event that happened like ever 4 hours.
Pretty sure he's not trolling, pretty sure he's employed by Zenimax Online Studios.
Originally posted by Fagmod Originally posted by znaiika Do you consider your self as pvper?
Look, you obviously have zero knowledge about this, so I'll enlighten you. There's 3 factions, each with their own large area that other factions can't enter. Whether you're a PvPer or not means nothing, you can't enter other factions areas. Only way to explore whole gameworld is if you make at least two alts.
I thought pvpers don't like to be hand held?
Here is the link.
Can I play alone?
Yes, The Elder Scrolls Online can be played solo, together with friends, or in large guilds and alliances.
Who is the hero?
You are the hero! Creat a character by choosing from the nine classic Elder Scrolls races. Then advanture throught the far reaches of Tamriel against hordes of undead, uncover evil plots, and confront your destiny that will change the world.
Multiplayer is an important part of our player versus player (PvP) option as well.
Those, Three Alliances face off in an epic battle over Tamriel's throne in the Imperial City, are for pvp purpose, and it is an option to choose.
Yes, you can explore the whole world of Tamriel without making extra toons.
Personal attacks are completely uncalled for. I've reported your post.
There haven't been many AAA mmos that have made their own engine, and Bethesda is known for making amazing engines so this is a huge positive.
If you think RvR is something other that what I described then you do not know what RvR is.
A for my 24 post count I don't normally post here and I'm regretting starting because the entire community seems to be full of trolls th just brand everything wow clones even when they are nothing like wow.
Originally posted by znaiika Yes, you can explore the whole world of Tamriel without making extra toons.
Doesn't actually say that, and it was confirmed from their official twitter that you cannot go into other faction territory, just your own two or three provinces and cyrodiil (for PvP). They were very clear.
Originally posted by MercArcher
LMFAO accusing someone of trolling is not a personal attack. Especially when you turn around and accurse the ENTIRE COMMUNITY of being FULL OF TROLLS.
Maybe I should report your post.
Or perhaps you are right, you should leave, and find somehwere that logic and common sense do not invade.
In response to your content:
Amazing engines? You mean they "made" Gamebryo? (they didn't) And that Gamebryo was "amazing?" (It isn't) Aside from how buggy and unoptimized their licensed engines are, and often the games, as a result (keep in mind I am a huge fan of TES) Bethesda is not the developer of TESO, just the publisher. Publishers do not make engines. This is why people might think you're trolling. The utter seemingly willful ignorance, paired with incredulous and utterly untrue assertions, makes it plausible that you might be trolling.
RVR is a very specific type of gameplay, unlike others I don't find it to be very vague and I think your assessment of it is about right, which is weird, becuase that's about the only thing you seem to understand.
Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2, ESO, FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...
Originally posted by Fagmod Originally posted by MercArcher Originally posted by Fagmod Originally posted by ShakyMo why would WOW players vote RvR? WOW doesnt have RVR
I'm no expert on WoW, but I'm pretty sure that at least one point they had some sort of open world PvP where you could attack only the opposing faction. Same goes for BGs. That is RvR, it may be a dumbed down version of DaOC RvR, but it is still RvR.
The number of factions is outside of this particular conversation.
No that is not RvR. That is PvP. There is a difference.
RvR is a specific term coined by the creators of DAOC which applies to specific things which were present in DAOC, and which a couple of games have used since. RvR, in terms of MMORPGs, is not used for the literal definition of realm vs realm.
To put it bluntly, a game does not simply "have RvR", a game IS RvR.
The core of the game is designed around that aspect, not designed around other things with RvR added in as a secondary factor. RvR also has certain other things such as territory / objective control in an open setting along with other goals and a focus on team based combat.
DAOC and WAR are RvR games. Even GW2 could be considered at least semi-RvR, if not for 1 or 2 things it would be full on RvR like DAOC. WoW, and games with similar design are not RvR games. They are games that offer PvP. PvP is simply Player vs Player combat which is a part of RvR, but not the whole.
Originally posted by Fagmod Originally posted by Zylaxx Originally posted by Fagmod Originally posted by Zylaxx So your an expert on how big the 3 different factions zones are? Where the fuck did I say anything like that? When you stated you were locked out of 2 of the 3 factions zones, implying that the world will be small. I'm not asking what you think I was implying. Now, pay attention, where the fuck did I say anything about the world size? Then what is your argument if not size, when you are locked out of 2 of the 3 factions areas? Cause I sure as hell dont understand what your saying. OK let me try it like this, you want to be able to explore all 3 factions areas right? regardless of size this isnt feasible in a 3 faction RvR game. The whole notion of restricting players from seeing other factions in the PvE world is a trademark of the DAoC RvR system. Listen I understand you dont like it, but you cant have cooperation or open world ganking PvP in that system because of unintended consequences. Still They could eventually move to a Mordred/Andred style system but I wouldnt count on it because Open World PvP is and always will remain a niche target audience. Or what is the best PvP system? Just as much of an expert as OP, or you Take a poll of which type of PvP prefer and it will ALWAYS return an overwhelming favorite to RvR. Your dellusional to think that open world or FFA PvP is anything but niche. Sure, if you ask that question from your average MMO gamer, WoW players alone will vote what is epitome of every feature. But if you ask that same question from people who play MMOs primarily for PvP, RvR is not on top of the list. But this is really beside the point. I was merely expressing my opinion about OPs ludicrous statement. Then you havnt asked the right audience. Sure WoW players will enjoy WoW features but I think we can all safely agree WoW clones dont do well. TESO sint a WoW clone, it is trying to parlay a massive audience and since we have already demonstrated that WoW clone doesnt work the only logical conclusion is to target another audience, that being either a Open World FFA PvP ruleset (which I will add would make more sense in a TES world) or some other form of content. Seeing as the head of the studio is a former Mythic employee, its not out of the realm of impossiblity to think he is thinking of DAoC model which was both popular and downright one of the highest populated MMO's prior to WoW. Again I understand you may not liek this decision but I would much prefer this version over a true port of Skyrim/Morrowind/Oblivian. I hear Darkfall is releasing a new title which might be up your ally. Fact of the matter is DAoC had 3 factions and 2 of the factions zones were locked out for you and there was ZERO open world PvP. DAoC was one of the higest critically acclaimed MMO's so now it is not one of the worst ideas ever to copy alot of its prevelant elements. At the cost of restricting about half (rough estimate) of the game world from any character? It most certainly is one of the worst ideas ever. Remember that getting to explore Tamriel is a huge selling point for TESO, the fact that people need to make alts to do it is big turn-off for many people. See there you go again implying just because you cant visit a certain starting zone then the game is small, or at the very least a bad idea. Says who? You? Just because it is a bad idea TO YOU doesnt make it a bad idea TO ME. Stop using the word 'implying'. You suck at it. I said half of the world is a rough estimate, I didn't say anything about any size. I REALLY would LOVE to hear you explain the good points in restricting characters from a large portion of the game world. And while you're at it, go find me a pure PvE player who agrees with you. Ok I'll forget size, however I dont understand your argument from a non-size implication. Restricting the player from 2 of the 3 factions zones is about what then? You yourself even mention "large Portion" so in my comprehsension I see size! Ok barring the use of size, the reasons why you restrict this is to create a safe area for PvE, its simple to comprehend, you either restrict or open up. If you open up the other zones then you either need to have open PvP (bad and niche) or cooperation (which doesnt promote unity and community among the factions. Something tells me you have never played DAoC and you defenitly dont understand the reasons for restricting access. You can still have a large world size in the DAoC model while restricting access so size is irrellevant. You also move all PvP to a zone or zones where PvP is consentual and you split the PvE and PvP crowd without having to have seperate servers (like WoW) or relying on isntanced battleground style PvP. The whole argument for 3 faction RvR is first to promote cooperation, unity and community amongst the factions and give them a goal to work for. The 3rd faction is there to limit the overopoulated size from having an indefinite population advantage whereby 2 factions (the lower populated factions) can routinely hit the highest populated faction creating a quasi-partnership. There are plenty of Open World PvP games for you to play, there has only been 2, COUNT IT: 2, multi faction specific RvR games, TESO is not a PvP game, it is an RvR so get it throguh your head please. Again, where the fuck did I say TESO is a PvP game? Do you even read before you start answering? Do you even read what you write? here again are your words: Seriously, instead of this stupid faction thing, why not just allow guilds to handle the whole thing. Let Cyrodiil be the PvP area, but let people choose the side (guild) they belong to. This way whole Tamriel would stay open to everyone. I would buy this game. See those things in green are highlights to your word so again I stand by my assertion, you want TESO to be a PvP game, it is not so leave it, it is an RvR game so quit changing it to something its trying not to be. Again there are plenty of games you may like but TESO is not the type you want it to be Do you suffer from dyslexia? Or are you high? I explained, quite clearly IMO, that the PvP area would remain the same as it is now (Cyrodiil only), but instead of factions, there would be guilds. Nothing else would need to change. Well, other than this would open the whole world for every character to explore, no need to grind alts. I'll express my opinion about games as much as I want, that's what these forums are here for. If you can't handle it, go somewhere else. Now go hone your reading skills, or lay down the pipe. I'll forgo the condenscencion and obvious breech of MMORPG's TOS and not report you because I want to have an honest and open debate. With that being said, could you do a TES game like what you describe and have guilds be the ad-hoc factions? Of course, but then the game would suffer as a result because of all the issues with community and unity that a faction specific game can convey and in the long run, this style turns into nothing more then a WoW clone be default. In the long run a former DAoC dev decided to implement a clone of DAoC and not of WoW. Something that the RvR community has been waiting on for a very very long time. Now I am sure alot of fans of TES are pissed, but I dont really care, and not to sound brash or condenscending, I think this isa good thing. Could Zenimax of gone in a different direction? YEa, but then neccessity is the mother of invention so I think they are taking a huge gamble with the DAoC model and theres NOTHING wrong with this. And unless my eyes are failing me, your precious DaOC is still there. Go play. Its old and a shadow of itself, some of us 3 faction RvR fans feel its our turn to have a AAA MMO to call our own. Yea well, few million TES fans would like to have a MMORPG that has at least something in common with..umm..TES. They do, from the lore to the open world exploration (the only true TES system that matters). Even Todd Howard has stated on several occasions, TES has always been about freedom and open world sandbox elements. For one, theres no reason to suggest that any other form of PvP is more TES like then another. Nor is it out of the realm of lore to suggest that Tamriel could of gone this route in the first place due. For one, every TES game has been 1 zone/world of Tamriel but then again I dont see you bitching about not being able to play in Morrowind while Playing the Skyrim RPG. So why is it so hard to fathom not being able to play in Morrowind if you chose to play a member of the Daggerfall Convenant? [mod edit] Seriously, think about it...Please! I boot up the game Skyrim, why cant I go play in Morrowind or Oblivian there? Why the outrage when the SAME EXACT line of reasoning is ported to MMO then all of a sudden you and everyone whos mad gets pissed. It makes no sense to me. So in conclusion until I see an online petition to Bethesda to open up the entire continent of Tamriel in each single player RPG then you have no valid argument.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2Waiting on: TESONext Flop: Planetside 2Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I would not say the game plays like WoW, but I'm still with others in saying it's not what peoeple that wanted an Elder Scrolls multiplayer game wanted.
It's been said a few times over in this thread and seems to have gotten passed over each time since it's a much less controversial issue than the ones people can easily nitpick pointless semantics on, but people who enjoyed Elder Scrolls largely tend to reference it in regard to the last threee titles.
For many it's a combination of third and first person combat built into a large explorable world, the option to choose and advance skills freely to create your own combination of skills, and the ability to veer completely off course to have an unscripted romp.
On top of that, there is the dedicated longterm players that create what's also often overlooked, the mod community. Unless you play on consoles, there are few longterm players who haven't delved into modding any of the last three games by now. This goes from simple things that tweak how the game manages numbers and bugfixes up to complete revisions of gameplay and entire changes in the game world.
Now. This creates two primary camps just regarding people that want a TES game. Then you also have people who want an MMO (not necessarily TES, but they like to feel the context serves some purpose). These people might have played the previous TES games, but it's not their kind of games. Instead, there is the desire to convert it tinto a more familiar and comfortable shell.
You can probably see where I'm going with this. I believe it has alrready been said previously by the devs, but I don't know where I might pull the quote from at present, that TESO wasn't really built for TES players.
Regardless of status on dev opinion, that's how those of us who revel in playing the TES games and sometimes play MMOs definitely feel. It's at least very much how I feel.
And regardless of their longterm success. The main value of several games mentioned , most notably Darkfall and Mortal Online. People clamored to those two titles early on due to their gameplay. Guess how it was generall described? 'Elder Scrolls like' and 'Oblivion like' gameplay. Their play was sold on the premise that it played like an Elder Scrolls game within the community. That's how people saw it, and that's how the community built hype on it.
There were other games that popped in and out with similarly more active gameplay over the years as well. Planetside 1/2 has been mentioned. There was also Chronicles of Spellborn (which ostensibly used similar combat, but stuck it behing a 'combat wheel' that no one seemed to like), Firefall, TSW, Raiderz, APB (poorly developed game, but even now people enjoy the gameplay), and Tera.
Then you have intermediary titles like DDO, Tabula Rasa, GW2, and the upcoming Wildstar.
On a smaller 'non-mmo' scale you have the longstanding and essentially cult classic titles of Mount & Blade and it's Warbands version, which has some of the liveliest multiplayer combat you'll probably find mashed into a medieval setting. Joining it in the fray is finally War of the Roses, and an actual M&B 2 is supposedly in the works.
This is far from a complete list, but let's deviate and address what's on and off poked at for a moment, the mechanics that are supposedly 'impossible'.
First off, we know this is a bogus claim. We know it's been a bogus claim for at least the last eight years.
There have been multiple means to, if not implement, at least replicate or emulate the style of combat in action games using online an massively multiplayer settings. On top of that there's at least two titles (Planetside 2 and Firefall) that are using more proper physics to drive their weapons in a massively multiplayer setting and are running decently stable for their dev state on top of them both including vehicles and some destructible world objects now.
I'd dare say they are the extreme end of pushing online game performance though, so scaling it back what else do we have?
Well previously mentioned there's been a few games that use a different method that generally has performed better on high latency that other methods have (which is why it was used in at least one CoD MW titles) and that is raycasting the hits for a deferred hit check. Instead of trusting weapon physics and collision, and to reduce the margin of error due to the possibility of latency and lag issues, some titles such as the original Planetside, APB, Mass Effect 1, and partially in DDO have opted to instead use a method where they draw an invisible line or cone coming from the weapon or the character.
When the character attacks, it does a scan for what targets are within that cone or line, and they are flagged as being hit. This is where that funky effect of aiming at the target in motion to shoot them instead of leading them comes from in some shooters.
And then what I consider the third tier, masking.
Tabula Rasa was well known for this. People habitually called it an RPG that looked like an RTS.
This method is where you just flatout don't use a true aiming mechanic and instead use 'socf locks'. The raycasting method is used to find a target initially, but then it operates more or less like you've tabbed to that target as long as you keep firing. This got flak when people realized they could pretty much be staring perpendicular and have the enemy they're shooting at be off screen in Tabula Rasa, but it was a considerably less taxing implementation than most.
And now we're back to the last solution that's becoming most common. Light tabbing. DDO is perhaps better known in this regard, TSW and GW2 as well. From my understanding this is where TESO is gonna be.
In this solution they stick with more traditional and fundamental means to know which oponent they hit by using a zone around the character and a soft lock that does not necessarily correlate in any way to where a player elects to aim when attacking (unless thay are like me and tend to play with a mouselocked camera) because the character will generally face the target they are tabbed to when you initiate an attack.
Why detail all this. Well, my point really is that they all work. The other thing to note is that it's a sliding scale of player skill and twitch versus accessibility.
I don't mean player skill in the global sense, but being able to aim at a target, execute a particular combination of movements, etc is more than simply twitch gameplay. Something I advocate in games over the use off a hotbar is the implementation of context driven actions that are initiated by combos. At a basic level you have in Skyrim's melee, the ability to mix your block attack or directional keys to produce different kinds of other attacks with varying effects on your opponent.
I know this caters to a subset of players though. Most notably the ones that don't want to have to memorize combos or fumble their way through executing them each time they want to pull off a bodyslam or somesuch and would rather have a handy single key so their character will pull it off for them.
Next most important tanget to me is that whole 'sandbox/not' argument.
For many people, Elder Scrolls simply is what it is. They follow the campaigns, do the sidequests they find, and expereince pretty much just what they have let themselves be guided to.You might have some 'fork in the road' moments where they will decide if they want to do something unknown or unscripted or not, but that's not really their thing usually.
These people work great for almost any MMO because their game experience is generally more hinged on what the game will throw at them, and not what their capacity is to do other things.
Then there's the second group of people who look for some forms of emergent gameplay expereinces. They are the one's that will see a fork in the road, and then run into the woods away from the road or climb the mountain that has no visible way up it just to see if there's any goodies or a neat picture to ba taken.
These kind of people tend to work pretty ok in games as well, easy enough to entertain by letting them muck about and essentially deconstruct the game as they look for all the little details that drives it.
Then we have the modders. I do repeat that, especially for TES, these have been the longterm players. They can love the game for what it is. But they also love the game for the potential of what it could be, and the fact that they have the means to realize that potential. It has always been the selling point to me on Bethesda games, the ability to modify the contents to suit your whims.
But it's a fine line you have to handle in multiplayer. People might be able to create custom assets, place them in the world, and muck about in that way, but there's generally a baseline that needs to be restricted, most notably game mechanics. If you let people disctate game mechanics as well you essentially end up with something incohesive and as eclectic as Second Life.
Regulating control so people can't cheat really isn't as much a problem as it's usually made out to be in regards to modding. Generally it's because it's the difference of internal versus external accountability. When someone hacks a game to cheat, they are influencing the game in a way that wasn't intended to be done and as a result there are no controls to regulate them
When there are official channels for mods though, it's considerably easier to regulate, because you can setup the game to verify it's own contents and lock certain parts so it won't load things that may change gameplay.
Look at Neverwinter Nights servers for example. You could have a variety of mods and hak packs on your computer changing your game, but servers in that game were designed to be able to fish for specific files to load instead of having a arbitrary pool that might differentiate per client.
Similarly in Quake 2. Some people knew they could make invisible/tiny game models on their own client that could be loaded into multiplayer, making them impossible to hit. However, game hosts had the ability to lock their servers so client game models wouldn't get loaded on the server. So while you were playing a dot on your game, everyone else could see and shoot you on theirs because to the server you were still a normal model.
It's not a problem of whether or not something can be done. It's a problem of whether or not one can account for the possibilities when it is done.
From my person point of view, what the developers of this game have told me is that they do not have the ability to account for the possibilities of a full TES game. Nor were they willing to gamble on anything. They have made a compromise, and in a form I do not favor as it takes away much of the things that I have valued about the series.
EDIT: As for Zylaxx's comment on opening the entire game world in single player titles. I would refer you to the official forums every time a new title is released. With Skyrim people had a mass of specualtion and requests to bethesda when they realized they had included many of the landmasses from the rest of the continent in Skyrim, but they were't accessible.
Inevitably it always coems down to Bethesda is not focused on those parts of the game world, so they don't develop them to the chagrin of the players.
Which in turn I then refer you to mods. Most recently there is a good bit of headway on the Skywind mod (porting all of Morrowind and Oblivion's assets into Skyrim). If you load that mod in it's current state you can use the command COC to teleport to many of the zones as they are not implemented in the worldspace, but still loaded into the game.
On top of that Oblivion has had at least three other sections of it's continent fleshed out to one degree or another. Hammerfell, Elsewyer, and Morrowind notably, but sections od Black Marsh and Valenwood were also done in Oblivion mods.
So point being depending on the scope you define for the game, such htings were there or on the way, and there has very much been the demand for such things over the entire lifetime of the series.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
not gonna read thru all this thread
but any company who flat out says there will be no housing, not cause we dont want it, but becuase it is too hard? are you kidding me, this company and game has fail all over it
sorry couldnt fix that exploit, was too hard, if you buy more gems at the store it will help you