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Do mmorpgs need to die? AKA MMORPG phoenix



  • PainlezzPainlezz Laguna Hills, CAPosts: 641Member Uncommon



    Using PC's as the only platform (I don't remember much of my console days)...


    I first remember loving RTS.  C&C, WC2... 

    I then moved to Diablo and played the crap out of that...

    I recall being really into Doom and at one point Half-Life.

    Starcraft was somewhere in here... I played the crap out of that!

    I believe my first real MMO that I put any effort and time into was DAOC.  Played and enjoyed that off and on for a few years.


    Now, all these years later, I find League of Legends is the only game I really enjoy.  With GW2 I found myself ALT+F4'ing to play League of Legends.  With all these other titles I download, play for 10 minutes, uninstall, and return to League of Legends...

    I don't gain anything by playing League.  No more levels to earn, no new gear to work towards.  Simply play for fun! 

    I've told people this before and while few seem to agree I stand by it:


    If they removed gear, levels, and all progression from an MMO and left you with only mindless killing quests and PvP where everyone was 100% equal... No one would play them.  The actual GAMEPLAY in MMO's these days is really boring.  They try to keep you hooked with the idea of grinding your character up in levels to get stronger and more gear so you can do it all over again.

  • Crunchy222Crunchy222 new york, ILPosts: 386Member

    First of all its my firm belief that mmorpgs should die, there should be no sequels.  Just buy the game and when the time comes, make a new engine, upgrade shit...its why you pay monthly. like EQ/AC/DAOC/UO should be where they are ancient nostalgic games...they shoulb have spent all the money they made keeping cutting edge...anyway cant fix that all now.


    Its my belief that what the first generation of games consited of was:  computer and counsol RPG fanatics...who were sick of playing RPG's, beating them in two weeks,and talking about them for months with people on irc ect.  Then developers said "why dont we make an RPG that not only never ends but allows people to play with eachother in a world that isnt isntanced ect"

    mmoRPG was a crazy idea...finally a RPG i could play that didnt end in a week when i got done killing the last guy or rescuing whatever.  Also i could play with other people in game, no longer did i have to  use a 3rd party program like irc to communicate with people who

    This is why those first generation games where...well like they where.  The birth of a niche game genere for a niche gaming crowd and they where both in the same...somewhat.


    Anyway...not its not really mmoRPG when talking themeparks...and that is what this thread really addresses...not all mmorpg,just themeparks.  The 900lbs gorilla int he room and all the games that attempt to siphon players off the beast.

    The goal is to get as many subs as possible, or player paying whatever...Its not about appealing to a niche crowd, and when it is about that...the game gets bashed, ridiculed, ignored.  Too often only the basement developers pick up where the first gen games left off and deliver it with high hopes and a boatload of fail.


    So here we are bitching about mmorpgs that lack RPG *OR* bitching about how their MMO has too much RPG.  We got too many gamers who are all occupying one genere and most i feel hate the RPG that the game is suppose to be.  OFC they make everyone happy for the money and both parites, the rpg lovers and the rpg haters lose out.  And threads like this are made.  Games are shallow, fast, boring, tame, same-old...ect.  Why?  Well they need to appeal to maybe the 1mil RPG fams spread across 50 games and the 50mil  gamers who just want a game to play and cant stand the RPG aspects of mmorpgs.



    MMORPG needs to go back to low budget unique games made for niche crowds.  most of the gamers who are addicted to these games need to have created a grind no risk in pvp...just lots of super fast action and pvp.  LOL and the MOBA games do this well.  GW2 i see as the "ultimate anti-rpg mmorpg" and it seems to be doing alright.


    Dont like the big budget games since 2004 ect?  Stop buy the themeparks, start buying the indy buggy sandbox...


    IMO the biggest mistake was then the first gen games gave up so to speak, and just kept the old version running rather than creating a new and modern engine and world while expanding content...they all reached a point in 2004ish where they said "oh that looks like its working well..lets do that but with our lore" ..."lets abandon this game aside from nominal content updates and make something new like that game and get 10mil subs!"  and its never been the same since.

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by grimgryphon

    You're kidding, right? Brains?

    I played UO from release and my sub it still active to this day, fifteen years later. I play occasionally when the nostaligia bug hits me. However, I'm not going to hype older games because of some dissatisfaction with modern MMOs. You didn't need to use your brain to play games like UO and EQ. Not in their current state and certainly not back then. Unless you consider the act of plopping your ass into a chair for the majority of your life just to mash the same keystrokes over and over as using your brain. It dosn't matter if its 1-2-3 or "I wish to lock this down", it's still repetitive, mindless drivel.

    I've noticed a trend in people on these forums to equate 'hard' with 'time-consuming'. UO/EQ were not hard. They did however, suck your life away.

    No thank you, never again.

    Will write only about UO.

    UO had TONS of bad solutions.  Skill system that seem great virtual world logic wise "get better as you use it", but in reality it just made people bot / macro it.   Whole incorpotaing macroing and relying on this for game was horribly bad idea.  I could not play game designed around macroing / basically simple botting anymore.

    There were also things like lack of good system to get rid of not used houses from gameworld  (automatically package it as deed and send to bank after X peroid of not paying sub?)

    +  seriously dozens upon dozens of smaller and bigger things.


    STILL on the other hand - gloryfying some old mmorpg's is because most modern mmorpg's are so diffrent in fundamental design and game concept that it is like difftent genre. Seriously there is almost nothing similar.

    That's why some people are bitter,  because there is noone trying to improve virtual world idea.  Instead it was trashed totally and replaced with something else.

    SWG was trying to improve and while it improved in some ways, in some even dramatically - in other ways it repeated many UO concept mistakes. Like gameplay through macroing actions of your toon.


    Small indie sandboxes?  Bah.  They are most of the time even more limited than first gen sandboxes because of budget's constraints and they repeat same old design mistakes, hell even bring new ones.  It is like noone in those teams are not really analyzing why some feature and how to create similar feature better.   Just repeat mindlessly. There is also serious problems with technical side of things, bugs, very slow development, lack of manforce to police game & get rid of cheaters and so on.  Even sandbox fans that might have above average tolerance for those things are not as forgiving as they were in late 90 / early XXI century.


    Mmorpg's evolved into games Dungeon Crawlers using matchmaking automatic feature + e-sport arenas also with matchmaking + solo game (with other players around but still 99% solo) of completing maps like in single player rpg's.

    It would be all ok, since diffrent players want difftent things and there is loads of people that want above.   Endless postings about "death" of mmorpg's are because big enough subset of players don't have virtual world idea game developed and made better anymore and no quality games like that released.


    It's simple really. Totally basic psychology.

  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 193Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by coyotewoman
    Originally posted by DavisFlight


    Stopped reading there...that joke is old. There seems to be a misconception here. Old MMOs do NOT = bigger time sink.



    Now see?  By stopping there, you missed most of my comment - the part where I said that older gamers are working 40+ hours and need more flexibility in order to have family time, to step away without getting other people killed if you just noticed your kid is shaving the cat or some other semi-emergency.  You missed the part where I said there's no reason that there can't be room for all of us, AND the part where I suggested to the OP that he start a kickstartr campaign to fund the kind of game he's looking for.

    My kinship is full of over-30's (age, not levels).  Some find time to do proper Raids, and enjoy the hell out of them.  Others fellow with kin members who understand that home/family has to come first even if it means the fellowship has to take a break from time to time.  Still others mostly solo, and lend a hand when needed.  We ALL enjoy the hell out of the community we've formed.  We've adapted as our game of choice has changed, and yes, 5 years later we're still playing.   I just wonder why the OP doesn't understand that a for-profit company would not want to alienate the majority of its paying subscribers just because a small group of players miss the "good old days".



    I do understand :D since first playing mmorpg's i now have a 10 year old daughter a full time job working as a engineer for a place called smiths aerospace and my own house, I too have a busy lifestyle these days. However i could still find time to raid and do all the stuff i enjoyed 10 years ago but i can understand that not everyone can find that spare time anymore. I also understand for a "profit company" they have to cater to the majority and that majority of the playe rbase being super casual, what i'm looking for is a company that is willing to create a game that caters to the players that want to play hardcore, there is still millions of non casual players and catering for us once again could still turn a profit, hell maybe it will convert soem casuals and show them what a mmo should really be like and why the old ones were the best !

  • TheBigDRCTheBigDRC Everson, WAPosts: 162Member

    The genre doesn't need to die, but I think it does need a near death experience. Something that will make developers take the ball and chain off. That ball and chain linked to greedy publishers who have more control than they should or worse yet, themselves. By which I mean those who abandoned artistic pursuits in a MMO for some extra cash.

    Yes, we all love money, but how far is one willing to go to get more? To the point where one's very spirit is screaming that what one's doing is not art anymore? Where one knows it's not right?

    Or to the point where one just doesn't give a damn anymore? Abandoning everything one once believed in for the sake of the almighty dollar.

    Much of the passion that was initially in MMOs has been lost over time. And gave way to a mess of a market. Clones, half-assed attempts, and disappointments. The unfortanute thing about that though, is that players are just as responsible. A new MMO is announced and doomsayers pop out to hammer it in the ground because it had one or two things similar to another MMO. Granted in some cases they can be right, but only some cases. And never always. And then you have those that hop from MMO to MMO, demanding the latter to be the same as the former. Resulting in a catastrophe of an MMO that acts like the other but just isn't. You can replicate techniques, but you can't replicate a soul.

    It comes down to this:

    1) Devs need to return to making art, you can't please everyone all the time.

    2) Publishers need to exert less control and allow devs to let creativity work.

    3) Doomsayers need to chill and at the very least give what they're attacking a chance at existance.

    4) Hoppers need to stop hopping and stay in the MMO they are in and not demand others to be identical.

    You know what's fun about chaos? I do, but I won't tell.

  • TdogSkalTdogSkal Livonia, MIPosts: 1,244Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    In fact, best system is D3 1.05 with difficulty levels you can tune. Having a raid that only 0.01% of the player can do is just waste of resources.

    Wrong, having a Raid that only 0.01% of the player base can win is perfect gameplay, it means only the skilled players are able to over come the challenge and that is how it should be.

    Not everyone should be able to win everything everytime, that makes it a waste of resources, makes it a waste of time and gives no sense of success since you cannot fail anyway.

    There are Raids in EQ that guilds could not beat, they did not whine, they keep trying until they got it.  They did not force nerfs because "IT was unfair others won".   They worked harder to overcome the event.  That is how gaming should be.

    WoW ruined that, people cried and got their way, nerfing the hard events into nothing.  

    You are a person that believes everyone should get a trophy for showing up, I am believe that only the winning team should get the trophy, the other teams should use their lost to push them to work harder so they can win next time.

    Instant Gradification vs putting forth effort for gradification.   I will take the latter all day long.

    I also grew up playing Ice Hockey and only the best team gets the rewards, that is how all games should be.   The best players/guilds should be rewards, the others should have to put the effort into becoming the best.

    Their were guilds in EQ1 that I was jealous of because they could take down raid events my guild could not, I did not think it was unfair.  In fact I took it as a challege to get better as a player and guild.

    Sooner or Later

  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 193Member Uncommon

    these numbers peopel come up with about onloy 1% raiding in vanila etc are bullshit

    i dont know anyone who played in vannila and didnt raid 

    i hate the fact players that dont put any time into a game expect to have as good gear as soemone who does , thats not how mmorpgs should work.

    when i get that high tier gear that took months to get what fun would it be if everyone was wearing that gear? it would make getting that gear a waste of time.

    What makes melaugh is casuals expect everythign the same as hardcores yet the very fact they are casual should mean they dont care about having the best gear

  • wartyxwtwartyxwt margatePosts: 172Member

    I was going to write something in depth and thoughtful but the OP clearly states in his latest post this is little more than a casual vs hardcore debate.

  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 193Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wartyxwt

    I was going to write something in depth and thoughtful but the OP clearly states in his latest post this is little more than a casual vs hardcore debate.

    im just replying to some of the other posters comments but ..

    Thankyou for commenting

  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 193Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CallsignVega

    There is a bunch of crap in this thread. Gaming is about using your brain, solving puzzles, strategizing, risk and reward and reveling in the accompanying excitment. Virtually all MMORPG's in the last decade have lacked key components of those mentioned.


    The EQ1-ShadowBane-Asherons Call1-Dark Age of Camelot era were the glory days. Everything post and including WoW has taken away from that combination that makes a good game and has handed it over into a massive money grab.


    How do you get money? By giving people what they want. Most people don't want to be challenged, most people don't want to solve puzzles or strategize. They want to be spoon fed garbage as they vegitate. Hence that massive trite trash we have now called MMORPG's. You people call that progress? I call it a joke. The dumbing-down of society. 

    agree 100%, 

    if it continues like this i dread to think what mmorpgs will be like 10 years from now, i think its inevitable that mmorpgs will die i mean how much more can they be dumbed down? maybe some revolving doors on dungeons go in and come back out with full gear lol


  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,941Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rush1984

    these numbers peopel come up with about onloy 1% raiding in vanila etc are bullshit

    i dont know anyone who played in vannila and didnt raid 

    My guild mostly PVP'd and rarely raided so your guild is wrong. Oh wait... biased data is biased. Hmmm...

    Let's look at some actual numbers. Feel free to tear them apart or use them to your benefit however you'd like:



    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member Uncommon
    Well, at least you chose your own thread to necro. That's something, anyway.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,615Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rush1984

    if it continues like this i dread to think what mmorpgs will be like 10 years from now, i think its inevitable that mmorpgs will die i mean how much more can they be dumbed down? maybe some revolving doors on dungeons go in and come back out with full gear lol


    may be they will just be turning into "other" kind of games like LoL, WoT, and ARPGs.

    Genres flourishes (like FPS), and genre declines (like graphical adventures, although there is a recent indie revival). It is nothing new.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,951Member Uncommon

    Wow...the OP implies you can get WOW's modern equivalent of Dragonslayer in "a couple of days".

    That doesn't exactly lend itself to a reasonable discussion.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 193Member Uncommon
    Alot easier to gear from lfr or a 10 man then gearing from a 40man
  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 193Member Uncommon
    Axehilt it stalker not slayer
  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,317Member Uncommon

    I don´t think MMORPGS need to die,nor i believe they have to go back to their original state.

    I´m enjoying A LOT new MMORPGS with new mechanics like Guild Wars 2 or The Secret World,

    I´m bored to my bones of the Trinity,gear progresion & the Raid of leave mentality...

    MMORPGS have evolved & branched into new kinds of games...very enjoyable, some of them.

    You said: "I just feel these games aint made for "us" anymore", well don´t count me in.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,855Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by rush1984

    if it continues like this i dread to think what mmorpgs will be like 10 years from now, i think its inevitable that mmorpgs will die i mean how much more can they be dumbed down? maybe some revolving doors on dungeons go in and come back out with full gear lol


    may be they will just be turning into "other" kind of games like LoL, WoT, and ARPGs.

    Genres flourishes (like FPS), and genre declines (like graphical adventures, although there is a recent indie revival). It is nothing new.


    Actually it looks like the MMO genre is going naturally towards titles that are less simplified rather than the ones you listed above.  I mean look at every title listed in the Top Voted Games in development.


    As to the OP I agree and I think it's coming.  Up until now MMOs don't really close down but go F2P to stablize.  It's worked great but as more games, of all models, come out it will spread that money out more and I think the least of the titles will drop off.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,951Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rush1984
    Axehilt it stalker not slayer

    Yeah, Nefarion loot.

    To which the modern equivalent is the loot you get from 25-man Throne of Thunder.

    Which takes way longer than a couple days to earn the full set of.

    Hell, it takes way longer than a couple months to get the full set of the LFR version!


    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common

    Well the thing is, you guys have to understand how this stuff works in a working, project pipeline:

    The game industry has strayed very far away from this "It's art!" mentality it was trying to achieve.  Used to, they were trying to copy the Hollywood way of doing things - for better or worse.  Except, despite it's very manufactured products such as... anything Micheal Bay creates and similar things that are all flash and no substance... Hollywood still has a few people in very high places that want to believe there is power in the balance between statistical entertainment revenue and quality artistic direction, vision, and storytelling.

    Thanks to movies like The Avengers, Iron Man, Dark Knight Trilogy, Man of Steel, and a few Pixar flicks, as well as old-school film makers who still make deeply personal studies that prove to be entertaining (Scorsese, Spielberg)... stuff like that - people have witnessed how moving and captivating and powerful movies can be when there is just a little bit of heart and soul put into them.  Despite what anyone thinks of these movies based on particular taste... no one can argue that the people behind them were really trying to do something they felt was important.

    The game industry simply doesn't do that on the scale that MMO's require.  These corporations that make these games aren't headed by artists or true designers who call the shots and want a real message or some quality art to come out.  In other words, the video game industry doesn't have a Speilberg or a Nolan or a Whedon.  Game designers and directors don't get contracts that give them full creative control.  They're headed by Yale Businessmen and Salesmen whose only job is to make money.  That means finding the least expensive way possible to create a product, and implementing sales strategies that maximize profit.

    Least expensive product - copy and paste what's already been created, add in new, aesthetically different assets.

    Maximize profit - change the business model to charge for consumption of assets.

    The less of the hard coding they have to recreate, the less they have to spend on initial cost.  Though the more assets they build anew will jack the cost up... they know that even one asset will pay for itself exponentially once it is tagged with a price for individual consumption.

    For instance: Is it anyone's surprise that EA produced 2 major MMO's within a year of each other?  WAR and SWTOR?  Hint: they used the same code and design document.  That's why they both had the exact same problems, nevermind the time they saved on reinventing the wheel by just copying WoW.

This discussion has been closed.