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Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by strangepower Originally posted by just1opinion Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by strangepower Originally posted by Aerowyn you are making money off of someone else's product illegally.. don't see it any differn't than people who rip movies or games and sell pirated copies and that's a felony...
I understand what you're saying and I agree with you. The same people that think gold farming and selling gold is okay are probably the people that think ripping CDs or movies and selling them is okay. Intellectual copyright laws mean nothing to these people, but they do to me and I agree with what you've said.
How do you draw the parallel between copyright infringement and gold selling?
The line is drawn when the selling of gold prevents or causes the developer of the software to lose money or prevents them obtaining the money. That won't happen until the developer themselves start selling gold.
But in Guild Wars 2 and other F2P MMO, the developers are in fact selling ingame money.
Ok, let me restate what I was saying. Making a profit by selling someone else's property is a crime. Your example of a rent-a-bike messenger is amusing, but it does not relate to the point I was making; in your example, you didn't sell the bike. If you would have sold the bike, i.e. someone else's property, you would have been committing a crime. People have been tried for virtual infringements. Sources: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7094764.stm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27337812 The problem with charging this activity as a crime is it is often difficult to determine ownership of virtual goods. Also, laws that protect intellectual property are often underrepresented when it comes to these virtual items. Here is a journal artical by Leah Shen, entitled Who Owns the Virtual Items?, that explains some of the problems related to this topic. You will have to go the Duke Law website and enter the author's name, Leah Shen, in the search field. You can read the abstract directly from the website, then download the entire document. The website is as follows: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu And? I'm not saying you cant sue some one for a "virtual crime" im saying that gold farming is not a crime, and if you claim the the selling of virtual currency is a crime since it belongs to the IP holder puts you into a legal bind. You can't prove that any property changed hands if you claim that the virtual currency belongs to the IP owner since in that case nothing except money has changed place. Like it or not pure gold farming is a service, the same way i can pay some one to walk my dolg or mow the lawn. Now if we involve the only illegal part of gold selling which is selling gold of compromized accounts it's a completly different story. And if you actualy bothered to read the 2nd article then you would see that thats what it was about, he "hacked" accounts, got the items that the original account owners payed for and moved them to his own account. But sadly as traditional gold farming and RMT goes you cant make a legal case agaisnt it not in a million years sorry, and yes i don't see nothing wrong with that either. Also during WoW vanilla i used to play on the top PVE server on the US realms, when every one was broke, repairs costing pretty much as they did during WOTLK, the top end guilds that used to raid 6-7 times a week for 4-6 hours at the time actually gave repair money to every one on a daily bases. And i know for a fact that several of them were buying gold to keep it up from money they got from their sponsor simply because it was not possible to facilitate it other wise, a night of wipes which was not uncommon at the time could cost a tank 300-400 gold, and back then that was more than a week worth of farm unless you got really luck on world drops, not to mention the cost of potions and flasks.
Ok, let me restate what I was saying. Making a profit by selling someone else's property is a crime. Your example of a rent-a-bike messenger is amusing, but it does not relate to the point I was making; in your example, you didn't sell the bike. If you would have sold the bike, i.e. someone else's property, you would have been committing a crime. People have been tried for virtual infringements. Sources: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7094764.stm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27337812 The problem with charging this activity as a crime is it is often difficult to determine ownership of virtual goods. Also, laws that protect intellectual property are often underrepresented when it comes to these virtual items. Here is a journal artical by Leah Shen, entitled Who Owns the Virtual Items?, that explains some of the problems related to this topic. You will have to go the Duke Law website and enter the author's name, Leah Shen, in the search field. You can read the abstract directly from the website, then download the entire document. The website is as follows: http://scholarship.law.duke.edu
Ok, let me restate what I was saying. Making a profit by selling someone else's property is a crime. Your example of a rent-a-bike messenger is amusing, but it does not relate to the point I was making; in your example, you didn't sell the bike. If you would have sold the bike, i.e. someone else's property, you would have been committing a crime.
I did take the time to read the article that I posted. I brought attention to the article to support the statement I made, i.e. people have been tried, in real life, for things they have done in virtual worlds. The connection I am trying to make is that legislation does extend to these virtual worlds and, as such, virtual infringement has real life consequences. However, I go on to say that encriminating culprits of these nefarious activities to the full extent of the law is sometimes difficult because two key reasons: 1. how determining ownership of the property is handled; 2. virtual crimes are often underrepresented or misrepresented in our courts of law. Therefore, trials often take a secondary path in seeking justice.
In the case of the second article I had previously posted, the woman was arrested for "hacking", as you said. However, the victim of the virtual crime did not seek out justice because he had someone access his account without consent. He contacted police because she had infringed on his perceived property rights by "killing" his character. This illustrates the problems surrounding IP, and ownership of such, in the video gaming industry and why they are often underrepresented or misrepresented in court. Therefore, IP laws often take a back seat to more obvious infringements, like hacking.
So, how is IP underreprestened or misrepresented? There are no well defined guidelines describing what counts as intellectual property. Most understand that non-physical property, such as ideas, are intellectual property. But what about video game currency or virtual items? Do they fall under the domain of IP? Usually, they are not codified under copyright, patent, trademark, or trade secret laws, as is the case with other IP. But does that not mean they cannot be classed as intellectual property? I believe that virtual goods can and should be protected by IP laws.
How in the hell does this even pertain the the original discussion about gold farming? (Opinion to follow) I believe that virtual items possess certain, inherent property rights. Therefore, someone must have rights to claim that property as their own. Further, that property must be protected by laws. I believe that the owner of such property is the entitiy that idealized it, in this case, the creators. I also believe that anyone who uses these products cannot claim ownership as they, the consumers, are purchasing a limited-use liscense (see EULA) from the actual owners. This EULA is a framework that defines and limits the way in which consumers can use the software. The creators can set up these frameworks of limitations concerning the use of the software because it is their product. Further, the EULA acts as a contract between the liscensor and liscensee. Nowhere in this contract does it say goldfarming is an acceptable act. However, most game companies will prohibit gold farming and gold selling in their EULA. Essentially, the creators are saying that if you farm gold, you are not following our contract of agreement. This is like renting a bike from a rent-a-bike company and signing a contract saying you will return it by 9pm on the same night, but then going to the pawn shop and hawking the bike. This is criminal activity.
Originally posted by CalmOceans Yes it should. But I think it is easier to punish the game makers instead of the farmers, you will never stop the farmers, but you can stop companies from doing RMT in their games. Stopping RMT is the first step into stopping farming. Virtual goods should not be allowed to be traded for real money. It saddens me to see those poll results.
Some kind of in-game RMT can be useful to Companies that make F2P or B2P games, and, after all, selling in game items in order to pay, e.g., server maintenance should be a sort of RMT.
So we close all F2P MMO, all GW serie and we will play only P2P MMO. Well, i think that a person (man, woman) do a crime he, or she, must to pay. In jail or with real money (heavy fine can be a good way to stop some sort of virtual crimes. Or doing some kind of useful job for a short time for free).
But i prefear an in game permaban for goldsellers and goldbuyers and other kind of moral in game infringement. Companies can do hard EULA so people must respect virtual rules.
My blog about (no more)MMORPG Addicted - a bog about videogames, cinema, politics and other things (in Italian)
Simple enough solution: castrate anyone who buys 3rd party gold.
I have truly lost my faith in humanity...
1) The Polls- My god that's scary.
2) The number of people who think it should be illegal, and why.
3) Most specifically the ones who think it should be punishable by EXTREME punishment (death, 20 years to life, etc.)
4) The extreme ignorance of those who think it is already illegal in their country. The failure of so many who don't understand what law is and what "illegal" actually means in context of a country's laws.
5) The ignorance and irrational assumptions made by so many in this thread without any actual evidence to support what they believe about gold farmers, businesses, law, copyright, prisons, police states, overcrowding, or even the careers of game programmers/artists who work on video games for a living. (ex. Myths and Rumors believed as fact such as the incorrect beliefs that: They don't pay taxes, they are all Chinese as if there aren't other asian countries besides China, they're all evil criminals ruling over slaves they don't pay, the only way to get gold is through immoral means, the programmers and artists who worked on the MMORPG lose money despite the fact they never will since they've already been paid a meager salary and most likely don't work on the game anymore after release, etc.)
6) The kids so dull, they think that just because I made the OP, I somehow believe it should be illegal. So dull that they fail to realize I made this thread to reveal the ignorance of most here, their irrational thought, and their overall inability to make good or intelligent decisions of what should or shouldn't be law.
If it weren't for the 1% of users here and in the world that actually don't fail in any or all of the above, I'd probably /wrist out of hopelessness for humanity. Thank God there are people in this world who aren't blind hateful ignorant children who believe in rumors and extreme assumptions without any evidence or logic to go along with their perverse perspective of reality.
Want to stop gold farming/selling/hacking of accounts? Follow Entropia's method.
They have a real world currency...PED, exchangeable for real money, you get what you earn/spend. Selling of this currency is fruitless as the amount you can sell it for back to the company equals the same amount, always. Gold sellers would be stupid to try and undersell the company.
Their hack prevention is top-notch, because people have, literally, hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in thier accounts. I know when I played it, I had to go through a rather extensive authentication process to ensure my IP matched my PC identification that I authorized. After the initial log in, as long as you log in from that PC, you have no problems, from a different PC or IP, a ton of problems. IP's change, but as long at it's from the same PC, smooth sailing.
This is the only way to effectively eliminate Gold selling/farming.
Making Gold selling a felony in the States would not amount to much for someone living outside of our country, no government would allow extradition because of virtual world currency fraud.
NO!!!!! Please keep the government out of it! They f things up enough as it is!
If bots bother you so much, leave the game. Stop relying on granny government to do everything for you.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Felony? Give me a break, talk about first world issues...
If there is slave labor, no matter what kind of labor, obviously that should, and probably is, a felony.
Bla bla bla Eula not a legal bla bla bla US vs EU bla bla bla Service = time bla bla bla
while anoying due inflation in games, its a very Legal way of doing bussiness in 99% of the word. bla bla bla cant outlaw it. bla bla
Einherjar, Valkyrie and Odin
It's business. Simple as.
Perfectly fine by me.
Originally posted by Novusod Gold farming is illegal like ripping a tag off of a pillow is illegal. Really nobody cares.
Gold Farming isn't illegal. ToS are NOT binding legal contracts. You CANNOT get punished by criminal law by selling, buying, or farming gold. There is a large difference between civil and criminal cases, and ToS are not even completely binding in civil cases.
In other words, you can wipe your butt with the ToS. It's not the same as an actual law which a government will punish you if broken.
Governments care. In fact there's a document online of the European Union detailing how to handle Virtual goods and gold farming.
Most gold farming sites evade taxes, and many in Asia use it to launder crime money, yes ppl care.
This thread is very revealing of the community. It allows you to see who the ignorant people are who think it's illegal when it's not, who the sane ones might be, but most of all who the crazy people are.
The saddest part is the OP is asking the question.. If it was already illegal, no one would ask this question. The very thread itself is like mockery in the face of the ignorant kids who actually believe it is already illegal. Grow up people, and actually learn about your country's laws and how the world works. We could use less naivety and stunted moral development in our nation's populous.
Originally posted by defector1968 Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by defector1968 Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by FrodoFragins Scene in prison: Melvin to new cellmate: Um. What are you in for? Juggernaut: Rape, Murder and general mayhem. What are you in for little man? Melvin: I hacked my sisters Hello Kitty Online account to steal some pink rabbit ears.
To be fair, in Asia RMT is used to launder money, it's no longer petty crime at that point.
RMT is also used to steal credit card numbers from Westerners.
in most ASIAN countries is a legal bussiness (China, Hong Kong, S. Korea, SIngapure)
Laundering money isn't a legal business anywhere, it's crime money, blood money.
It's used to conceal the origin of the money, and RMT is a decent method to do this.
and in USA, France, UK, Germany dont do laundrey money? And u know the bigest hackers are Russians and Avgans, just for the record
Hehe wonder where youre from...*rolls eyes* ive seen other numbers that show otherwise. but then again
im sure youre gonna swear by what you said tooth and nail, reguardless.
Destiny has cheated meBy forcing me to decide uponThe woman that I idoliseOr the hands of an automaton
Without these hands I can't completeThe opera that was captivating herBut if I keep them, and she marries himThen he probably won't want me dating her
This topic makes me think of Aion more then anything... My god do they spam the chat like crazy.
Should it be illegal? Thats a joke of a question imo. The government takes part in illegal activites to begin with all the time. Your telling me you would join them? Thats all I'm hearing. Its personal biased, nothing more. Let them sell. The buyers will never enjoy the game like it is meant and will not ruin the game for anyone else... If you think it does your nothing more then a crybaby.
If you ask my opinion I'd have to wait for my turn!
I think it is fraud, while there are obviously some serious cases out there where people have paid 3rd party sites ridiculous amount sof money for in game currencies and gotten scammed, it is no different than any other scam whether it be online or in real life.
1. It is wrong to take advantage of people in that perspective
2. It is against the user agreements of mmo's
3. MMO companies should take it more seriously, as it affects the in game economies in a harmful way and dilutes the game with unwanted bs.
No, the law should not be involved with a video game, HOWEVER...there are those extreme cases where people get scammed large amounts of money...while stupidity on their part for taking part in this, it is still a felony to scheme someone like that.
What I don't understand is how and why it is legal for these 3rd party gold sellers and farmers to have adverts posted on websites and facebook, advertising gold for games like WoW and such...now that in my mind should be illegal.
Originally posted by Arskaaa"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
Originally posted by abyss404 While only 5 people have voted so far... I'm still a little concerned that people actually think this is something that should be made illegal. Do you really want MORE government control in your lives? Especially over something so incredibly petty.
The average human takes WAY to much security in being controlled. I call it teet syndrom.