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Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by Simphanatic I'm a total History geek, and since I was raised on a very large Iowa farm, I'm perpetually drawn to the land. I'm also VERY tired of the ubiquitous, cliche'd elves, dragons, vampires, werewolves, dancing bunnies, and pandas that current developers seem incapable of resisting. That said, I'd absolutely kill for an MMO based on Colonial America (think French and Indian War period), where warring faction might include British Loyalists, French Loyalists, Spanish Loyalists, Non-allied Colonials, and any number of warring Native-American tribes who are allied with or at war with each other or the other competing interest groups. All players will begin the game as British, French, Spanish, or Native-American. They can remain in starting cities throughout the game or can strike off on their own, remaining loyal to their starting faction, or going competely independent. The game would be an amalgam of theme park and sandbox qualities, such as: THEMEPARK Players serve quest-focused apprenticeships in various skills and pertinent militias Non appreticed skills, like hunting, trapping, and farming would have relevant quests Professions, like lawyer, physician, or parson/priest have quest chains originating with mentors Players can opt into new apprenticeships/skills at any time While players are not compelled to engage in apprenticeships/formal training/mentorships, their skills and income stipends will develop much more slowly SANDBOX Players are completely free to explore, but are at complete mercy of NPC wildlife; individual food, water, shelter, clothing needs; players from competing factions; and Native-American hunting parties Players can homestead farms, but must clear the land, build cabins, and purchase implements, crops seeds, and livestock. As above, they are at the mercy of the environment Players can group together to found settlements; which, with sufficient infrastructure (physician, lawyer, clergyman, merchants, farmers, and tradespeople) can evolve into villages, towns, and cities. Towns require a paid constabulary (manned by players) and cities require a paid garrison (also manned by players). Each settlement will have it's own player-established tax system and economics Players, like hunters, trappers, traveling musicians, and traveling merchants may opt out of dwelling in a village Players can also opt for the outlaw life, where they can rob and kill to their heart's content. Of course they're also subject to the same limitations, per the environment, as everyone else. Criminals (robbers, murderers, vagrants, and those failing to pay local taxes or serve their time in local constabularies/militias) can be tried and sentenced to jail, forced labor, or death. (Laws are established by the village/town/city's residents). Players will need to eat meat and fresh vegitables; not doing so will cause them to lose strength. Lack of fresh vegetables or fruit in their diet will cause scurvy and they will die (permanently). Players will need a source of water (or beer); without such they will lose strength and can ultimately die without it. Clothing items wear out over time and have to be replaced. Ammunition, powder, and arrows must be replenished. Players cannot carry more in their "bags" than is physically reasonable; thus, all items have a weight factor (includes food, ammunition, weapons, extra clothing items, and water/beer) There is no leveling. Everything is centered on skills, where players can complete all or only portions of skills paths. For example, I'd imagine a successful farmer might have engaged in numerous paths, such as animal husbandry, gardening, hunting, tanning, carpentry, and blacksmithing. Married farmers might be wise to choose a spouse who has complimentary skills, such as butchering, weaving, canning, soap/candlemaking, and mending. Structures in this game would be available on menus, costs would vary and, of course sufficient personal skills (or those of settlement members) would have to be present to complete the structure. Items inside structures are available from carpenters, stone masons, and general merchants. Basic in-game consumer items, such as cooking pots, knives, flintlocks, pistols, carpentry tools, farming implements, livestock, crop seeds, books, and some clothing items are available at the starting cities, where they can be purchased wholesale. They can be transported to outlying and distant settlements by merchants, who resell these items. In time, I can foresee additional player-run trade centers developing, subject to available infrastructure, craftsmen, and tradespeople. I see this production and movement of goods ever outward as driving overall economy. These are only some cursory thoughts -- what I want is a REALISTIC historic experience that exposes players to the hardships, challenges, and dangers of living on the early American frontier. It should be dangerous, provide players with a variety of experiences, where they can opt into multiple career paths, and where miscalculations resulting in death are permanent. This world is 100% persistent -- players' avatars remain in game (presumably in a sleeping state) when they're not online. They are 100% vulnerable at these times; therefore, living in safe villages, hideouts, or well-hidden camps is very advisable. Everything in-game is line-of-sight. There are no maps, minimaps, autopathing, or other indication that danger is near. Players have to learn the land over time. When applicable, players and NPCs will leave temporary visible tracks that can be followed. All NPC wildlife can be hunted or trapped for food/hides. I also envision day/nighttime conditions, and weather that impacts players in varying ways. I'd be interested in feedback concerning interest and feasibility of this vision.
Besides the part in red, I'd totally play a game like this.
Can we play as Native Americans? I want to go head hunting!
And thousands wont.
Besides if Elves, Dwarves and other high fantasy can survive for almsot a 100 years thanks to the work of Tolkien something tells me high fantasy isnt going anywhere.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2Waiting on: TESONext Flop: Planetside 2Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Originally posted by Quirhid Why do people always blame the games and not themselves?
Because every offering today sucks. Micro-transactions and easy reward mechanics.
All I want is a return in the philosophy of what MMOs used to be, then apply today's innovation to it.
"You are all going to poop yourselves." BillMurphy
"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone."
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Quirhid Why do people always blame the games and not themselves?
I would ask the opposite question. Why do people give shitty games a free pass?
Why do people obsess over games they don't like as if they're offended by their very existence? It is squarely the players fault for not moving on to something else and interesting. And if you can't find anything interesting with the selection out now I would say it's YOUR problem. "Boredom sets into a boring mind" and all that.
Anway, Hell no I'm not bored of the genre:
Lineage 3.5 years
Guild Wars 7+ years (and still playing)
LotRO 4.5 years
Tabula Rasa 1 month
EQ2 4+ years (and still playing)
Ryzom 1 month
Vanguard 1 month
WoW 4 - 5 months
DDO 2+ years
Aion 9+ months
STO 6+ months (play periodically)
Guild Wars 2 1.5months (and still playing)
Looking forward to playing: City of Steam, Neverwinter Online, and RaiderZ
If you don't like the hobby then find another one. It's supposed to be about entertainment. Find something legal that entertains you if mmos have lost their lustre.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Quirhid Why do people always blame the games and not themselves?
The two are nearly mutually exclusive because the present innovations are meant to fix the problems with yesteryears philosophy.
- more developers
- more players
- meaningful PvP
Hmm. Cant think of anything else. Otherwise that game is pretty close to perfect.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Quirhid Why do people always blame the games and not themselves?
Yeah. Most are. To fix old philosphy problems new solutions at least partially taking this philosophy into account would have to be created.
DAoC was the game I played the longest. Think it was about 6-7 years in total. What made it so great for me? Mhh, well its the same with the first true love ^^ you allways take this as a measure for what comes after this. And usually its hard for the following to compete. Memory can trick you quite well.
But that aside, what I realy loved about DAoc was the 3 realms with the different races and classes. Each realm was totally different and very unique.
The RvR was what kept me playing. I loved the way PvP was set up. When I felt like pvp I could go bash the albs and hibs, when I felt like PvE I could go grind mobs. Din't had to worry about beeing ganked in PvE, but could get my blood pumped in RvR.
What I also liked about the game was, it had no minimap. To travel was a adventure. I got lost so many times. Friends called me the lost Troll, which I was. But becouse I was lost so often I got to know the whole Map. I found caves and rare mobs.
In the "newer" MMORPGs EQ2, WoW... they started to spoon feed you with map infos.
A other thing I liked about the game was the possibility to loose xp by dying. This made the lvling so much more challenging.
So what I realy would love to see in a MMORPG is a DAoC like PvE and RvR system plus a great deal of sandbox features. Housing in the PvE part, not in a separet zone but openworld, and maybe castles build by players and siged by players.
This would realy bring back my love to MMORPGs. It dosent have to be in a medival setting, could also be in a modern or sci-fi setting.
-Massive-Industries- Heavy Duty
To make MMO's interesting again developers need to focus on the community and stop making games. What I mean by that is that developers are making MMO's into standard games, you log in, play alone for however long you want, kill a few things, do a few quests, if you feel like a challenge you might join a couple of players for some group content, then you'll finish and log off. The problem is, all games have a lifespan, like how many people are still playing Crysis or Skyrim despite them being great games? Meanwhile, games with a focused multiplayer continue to thrive, such as the Call of Duty or League of Legends.
That's the thing, if you involve the community and bring them together, build on that 'multiplayer' part of the MMO, then players will stay a lot longer and be more invested. They'll want to see the people they fought with yesterday, they'll want to group with a few friends they made, they'll basically have more reason to go back than just to do a few quests and kill a few random monsters that overall means nothing.
I played EverQuest for two years, the graphics were ugly, the gameplay was a bit clunky, the music was turned off the moment I got in game, but the world was massive with players from all across the world, the game was focused more on bringing those players together than trying to be a 'game'. With grouping being more or less a necessity and dungeons being places to explore rather than race through for the shiny shiny, it was all about the community, not about a 'game'.
for me its the mmo cummunity that gets more fucked up year by year (forgive me my french).
be it sandbox or themepark , the online community is on a constant bitching, complaining and whining contest.
even the slightest issue becomes a moaning fest.
lets pinpoint it ... the mmo market is fucked because we as endconsumers aka target group are mentally so fucked
that it becomes nearly impossible to be creative for Devs.
edit: havent played anything since Xsyon wich has ptential but no $$ backup
A nuclear holocaust/zombie apocalypse/global pandemic setting.
Certainly shouldn't be hard for developers to recreate/copy the Earth. Add some zombies, or nuclear fallout.
Set the players loose with a skill based system, and FPS combat. Watch the carnage.
And yes I know about Day Z. While its certainly a great mod, for a sub-par core game. It's not quite a full fledged MMORPG. Kind of an MMO Lite. Intriguing start though... someone needs to take the idea and run with it.
As most the other posters have said. Just try and make a virtual world. Stop making everyone the "icon" or "hero" of the universe and let them play how they want to play.
SW:TOR was the worst for this. I never felt like it was my character. I was just watching the storyline, and occassionally injecting a witty comment into the NPC conversations. Most the time I wished I could kill every one of the whiny, useless, pointless, NPC characters, but knew that even if you could, there would be no repercussions. (Probably why I never hit lvl 50 on a single character)
I honestly wonder if these developers ever read a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book? You could make the wrong choice and die. But the beauty part was, you could just start over, and pick a different option.
There is nothing wrong with failure.
For some reason, it's been almost completely removed from modern games.
Edit - Double Post
I can't help noticing the irony here.
Forum-wide, there are literally hundreds of people begging developers for something new and fresh; yet ...
There are many people in this thread who've said something like, "Improve on a game like [insert name] and I will be happy."
So, maybe it's the latter sentiment to blame as to why developers keep giving us the same stale bilge.
In response to the gentleman who said High Fantasy isn't going anywhere ...
I adore Tolkien; I've re-read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings several times. But with these volumes, even without delving into Tolkien's other closely related literary endeavors, you know there's a depth of history, tradition, language, and culture that intrinsically unifies his work. Indeed, we come to understand from Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth and The History of Middle Earth that in Tolkien's mind, at least, these were places that very much superseded mere fantasy, characterizing the 'work in progress' nature much representative of the author's thought process. This is certainly not the depth we find in most fantasy based MMORPGs and, for me, therein lies the problem.
I've a keen sense that most, if not all MMORPG developers give us elves, dragons, dwarves, goblins, golems, vampires, attack bunnies, and -- dare I say it -- pandas, etc, ad nauseum, not because they further story progression, but because they (the developers) are simply too intellectually uninquisitive or unoriginal to come up with anything else. I'm quite tired of the same cookie cutter, hackneyed story lines featuring the same predictable protagonist classes and antagonist monsters/bosses.
For years, until I realized I hadn't the talent, I tendered the notion that I might be a writer. I attended one writing workshop after another, and encountered legions of would-be writers who wanted to write Fantasy. The common thread amongst them was a desire to shirk any effort to understand the world in which they lived. However imaginary the Fantasy genre may be, writers who don't understand the Human condition, who minimize the importance of tradition, culture, and language are doomed to failure. Tolkien knew this, and he was a keen observer and chronicler. Indeed, we can find one parallel after another between the world in which Tolkien lived and the one about which he wrote.
My point is, since every developer fails so miserably in adding substantive backstory to their supposed worlds and generally fail in furnishing sufficient rationale as to why our characters engage in those worlds as they do, then please let them find some degree of originality in the real world. And, for God's sake, let them look beyond Wikipedia for background.
See for me since after the last MMOs I loved (WoW and SWG) were both ruined by dumb patches in 2005 I haven't stuck to an MMO for more than a a few hours. Planetside 2 is the first one I've been playing for more than a few hours and it's coming along nicely now. I think for the first time ever SOE are doing a proper beta and listening.
Originally posted by Simphanatic I can't help noticing the irony here. Forum-wide, there are literally hundreds of people begging developers for something new and fresh; yet ... There are many people in this thread who've said something like, "Improve on a game like [insert name] and I will be happy." So, maybe it's the latter sentiment to blame as to why developers keep giving us the same stale bilge. --------------------------------------------------
Probably because what was old is new.
For the last 7 years we've been treated to dumbed down casual games with no penalties or loss
Originally posted by tixylix Probably because what was old is new. For the last 7 years we've been treated to dumbed down casual games with no penalties or loss
I won't let you get away with such a cheap platitude or silver bullet solution.
What was old is ONLY new to those who didn't experience the previous incarnation.
And, as much as I enjoy trashing lack of depth and originality in development efforts, I've got to defend developers on this point ... market forces, development costs, and maintenance overhead expenses absolutely dictate that developers follow the money.
Developers don't produce casual games and 'dumbed-down' expansions for no good reason. In a 'follow the money' business paradigm they are absolutely mandated to produce products catering to the broadest potential consumer base.
I'm definitely unenamored with the recent crop of MMO offerings, but developers are simply following supposed market trends. Were I conceiving a new gaming model, and looking at a venue such as this for guidance, I'd be completely perplexed because I can't identify any measure of consensus. Worse, and this has certainly been taken up in another thread, we can't even agree on a common set of definitions. So, minus any verbalized consensus, developers will most certainly ape contemporary development philosophies. In short, don't look for much pushing of the envelope or a return to reskinned times past.
I played Everquest, SWG Pre CU, EVE Online, PS and all the old MMOs really and I even include WoW Vanilla in that because that was a good game. Yet I played Planetside 2 and it feels fresh and exciting to me even though it's based on an old concept. No one has done it since 2003 and so it feels new. Same as if someone made SWG Pre CU 2 on a new engine, it would feel brand new because no one has attempted a game of that scale since again 2003. It's like if someone made a WW2 FPS shooter now, people would most likely love it a lot more than they did 5 years ago because everyone is tired of the same old modern combat COD clone.
People clearly don't want dumbed down WoW clones because all the MMOs have failed that have done that since. Dayz proved that there is a market of at least 1.3 million people who want a more hardcore unforgiving game with PERMA DEATH! I mean who would have thought? The game is on a slide down atm because no content is being added as they're focusing on the stand alone, but when that launches then watch it be the next Minecraft which is also more of a hardcore game because you have to be creative.
Every FPS out there, even COD is a hardcore game if you play it online, you have to be really really good to play those kinds of games. The casual buys a game once or twice a year and doesn't play it much but the hardcore audience comes back again and again.
It isn't about a game being hard, people like a challenge, I think people get hardcore mixed with a broken buggy sandbox mess. Those games were only broken because they were trying to be too ambitious for the market and hardware they were based on. Now you can make these games with the tech we have and you can also make a profit making these games thanx to F2P, Steam, Minecraft proving you can publish it yourself now on your own site.
The age of WoW clones has died, it died with SWTOR. Dayz really is the start of something new, it proved to everyone that people are willing to buy hard games and SWTOR proved to everyone that making a WoW clone is not acceptable any more.
WoW - 8 years (stopped playing)
Eve Online - 7 years (ongoing)
Darkfall - 1 year (stopped)
SWTOR - 1 month (stopped)
Yes - I've burnt out.
What would bring me back? -
> If I had more spare time
> If MMORPGs adopted 3D technology - particularly masks that make you feel as if you are actually there
> Improved AI in PvE
Originally posted by Pumuckl71 for me its the mmo cummunity that gets more fucked up year by year (forgive me my french). be it sandbox or themepark , the online community is on a constant bitching, complaining and whining contest. even the slightest issue becomes a moaning fest. lets pinpoint it ... the mmo market is fucked because we as endconsumers aka target group are mentally so fucked that it becomes nearly impossible to be creative for Devs. edit: havent played anything since Xsyon wich has ptential but no $$ backup
I agree with u .The 2 main reasons all mmo's are so shitty nowdays is the lack of creativity from devs (and their efforts to fast make something and go for fast money),and the community not being demanding enough from their side (i also agree partially about the mentality of our side).
Its just u didnt caught exactly whats happening out there as it seems :P
Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Quirhid Why do people always blame the games and not themselves?
I have you wrongly assuming dillhole. In fact if I wasn't busy programming innovative RTS games I would still be playing ATITD 8 hours a day, down from 12 because 12 is too much after a few months. If I had money I would play EvE.
I barely post on this site anymore because I have better things to do.
This doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of current MMOs are shit.
I don't have a boredom problem. If anything I have too much to do. Next time you want to make blanket assumptions in order to bolster your self esteem about how everyone else has problems and you don't, best to make sure you pick someone who is more in line with the straw person you are trying to degrade kk? Thxbai.
Burnt out on MMORPG's, yes... Just seems like WoW was the beginnings of me enjoying MMORPG's and none really touched its greatness. Don't get me wrong though, their are so many MMO's these days you can't complain. There is something for everyone and all it takes is doing a little research into what you want.
Something that could revive my love for MMORPG's is pretty simply... ( For me at least...)
I would love you see the future of MMORPG's change to a First Person camera perspective instead of the classic view.
This would change the direction of everything that is common in MMORPG's. It would give MMORPG's a new direction in terms of skill. Leading more in the terms of aiming with the mouse and renew peoples love for certain things in the new light with something as simple as the camera perspective. I know damn well that I've always enjoyed Summoning/Necromancer, and it has never been as much fun as Diablo 2 and Elder Scrolls. Of course the mouse wheel for changing spells and a new outlook on the Genre, for myself at least.
One more thing... Turn based combat... I just don't think that they use it enough in MMORPG's. Look at the success of Atlantica. It would really help out all those JRPG fans out there, which are probably a big faction of players, to bring back the beginnings of where a ton of RPG's are responsible.
If you ask my opinion I'd have to wait for my turn!
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Torvaldr Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Quirhid Why do people always blame the games and not themselves?
So where are your innovative games? You broadly paint all mmos as poor quality and allude to your quality game as a contrast. Really? Where is your quality game? Let's evaluate it. Put your money where your mouth is so to speak.
You can be in denial all you want and make monetary excuses, but it's up to the player to use their imagination and creativity in a game. It sounds more like this type of entertainment isn't for you and less like it's all bad. That's okay, but blaming everyone else doesn't fly.
MMOS = shit and your RTS = "innovative" because you said so? Just like anyone else I'll pass on your 'expert' opinion until you can come up with something to support it other than you think you know better than the rest of us. Your empty criticism is just as useless as when a game marketer hypes their product. I don't want to hear "because I said so". I want to hear why and what you think is better.
I wasn't comparing my games to MMOs or even claiming they will be successful, I was just explaining why I currently don't play MMOs, the reason being a time constraint.
It has nothing to do with my inability to find an MMO I like, I said I would be playing ATITD at this very moment if I had time for MMOs. The money was why I play ATITD instead of EVE, not an excuse.
Let me break it down so that you can't make dumb arguments due to your lack of reading comprehension:
"If you don't like the hobby then find another one. It's supposed to be about entertainment. Find something legal that entertains you if mmos have lost their lustre."
"Why do people obsess over games they don't like as if they're offended by their very existence? It is squarely the players fault for not moving on to something else and interesting."
"I have you wrongly assuming dillhole."
"And if you can't find anything interesting with the selection out now I would say it's YOUR problem."
"In fact if I wasn't busy programming innovative RTS games I would still be playing ATITD 8 hours a day, down from 12 because 12 is too much after a few months. If I had money I would play EvE."
Do you understand now? You quoted my post and responded with straw person arguments which do not apply to me. I pointed out that your assumptions were wrong and your arguments invalid.
Thusly you dug around for a comment you could yet again misinterpret to back up your poorly conceived argument.
All the people complaining about the current state of MMOs are, like me, doing something else instead. The people who obsess about MMOs are fanbois in love with WoW or GW2 or some such game. The people that have given up on the majority of MMOs because they are boring crap have moved on to activities that are not currently in a state of shitness.
That doesn't mean that we can't advocate for a return to the time when MMOs were unique and innovative and provided an experience that was vastly different from single player games.
Spending 20 or 30 minutes every few days posting on a forum does not amount to obsessing over games you don't like. Do you understand what the word obsession means?
Your argument was not only stupid but inapplicable to 99% of people who bemoan the current state of MMOs.
You are 100% wrong and you should feel wrong. Get over it.