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Auction House: Death of Community

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  • MyrdynnMyrdynn Beaumont, CAPosts: 1,518Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jagd241

    Not to keep pushing the game but there are no Auction Houses in Project Gorgon

    http://www.eldergame.com/2012/09/the-case-against-auction-houses/

    For the reasons identified by the OP and in this thread on the devidary above.

     

     

    thats a good read, Gorgon sounds great on paper, it just looks so old, I might as well go back to AC

     

  • SimphanaticSimphanatic Marion, IAPosts: 92Member

    To the OP's original Post:

    I think an AH's affect on so-called community is absolutely dependent on how it's configured. For instance ...

    In WoW you can look in the AH and see exactly who's selling what items.

    In SWTOR and many other MMOs the AH listings are completely anonymous.

    WoW's setup worked for me because I could contact sellers directly and strike deals with them on the side. For example, if I was a non-skinning leathercrafter I could make a deal with one or more skinners to purchase all their hides, which because it meant a sure sale for all their hides, they were willing to sell at prices lower than the going AH rate. This was good business and it helped me get to know a number of other players. I suppose you'd call that community building.

    Some games offer both AHs and player shops. Perfect World is one such game where items in players' shops are often more diverse and sell for less than on the AH. Again, when you find other players that seem to specialize in the items you need it's easy enough to reach out to them and strike long- or short-term deals; again building relationships.

    For my own experience, I've never found chat/trade channels particularly useful in offsetting anonymous AH listings, but that could just be me.

    I just left Pirates of the Burning Sea after a month (nothing to do with the game or community). PoTBS has a deep economy and pretty good community despite have anonymous AH listings, dead trade channel, and no user-based shops. But I suspect that has more to do with the "Nations" configuration and relative ease and speed in moving about the map.

    In large measure, I think the makeup of the player community has much more to do with a sense of community than game mechanics. Where a large proportion of players are engaged in leveling up just as fast as they can, there's less sense of community, even when players must group for instances. Forcing people to group does not make community. The only thing that does so is a player base that's interested in leveraging all gaming aspects -- PvE, PvP, RvR, Dailies, Instances, guild-level events, and Crafting. In short, I blame a gamer mentality that says I must hurry up and level for ultimate destruction of gaming communities.

  • jagd241jagd241 San Diego, CAPosts: 54Member
    Originally posted by Myrdynn
    Originally posted by jagd241

    Not to keep pushing the game but there are no Auction Houses in Project Gorgon

    http://www.eldergame.com/2012/09/the-case-against-auction-houses/

    For the reasons identified by the OP and in this thread on the devidary above.

     

     

    thats a good read, Gorgon sounds great on paper, it just looks so old, I might as well go back to AC

     

     

    That's why the kickstarter for art assets - couldn't agree more that it needs help with the art/animation ;-)  Did you check out the Video Diary?  I posted a thread in the rumor section with links.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Myrdynn

    I have long been thinking of posting this, finally getting a little time to do so.  While playing some games recently, TSW, GW2, SWtor, TERA, etc over the last year, it has dawned on me that the biggest community killer is the Auction House.  Recently games (TSW and GW2) launched without a proper AH, and until they were put in place, people actually talked in the channels, making deals, helping people, selling mats etc.  I actually made a couple acquaintances that were heavy crafters, who just were after all the supplies they could get their hands on, and I was willing to help em out.  It was a good relationship.  Then the AH was fixed, and since then I havent even talked to a single person in game.  Before you say, well I should try making friends, there really is nothing in either TSW or GW2 that having friends makes beneficial.  I dont need them to do anything in game, I dont need them to craft anything for me, etc.

    Now long ago, the games we played didnt have Auction Houses, and they were very strong communities.  Everyone on a server knew that if you wanted a Ubersword of Giant Slaying, that BobJohnson was the one that could craft it the best, or you could at least ask around and see if someone could hook you up.  This built community, numerous times, a conversation would go something like.  Hey I hear you can make me "item X', sure I can, but the mats are really tough to come by.  But why dont we get a group together and go out on a hunting party to find them.  You get your mats, you help me skill up one of my crafting skills, its a win/win.  Friendships were formed, alliances were forged, etc.

    Unfortunately with the have it all now crowd that play MMO's Auction Houses are an evil necessity.  You collect your mats, sell them on the AH for X currency, then search for the item you want and bam, you got it, very short time, very EZ.  But during this time, you have no interaction with another player whatsoever, hell you dont even know who made you your item.  Items used to be imprinted with crafters as well, so that when someone says hey where did you get that sword you could inspect it and it would say made by "player X".

    Anyways, I know I am going to likely be in the minority, but its something I have been thinking of for some time.  I think a happy medium might be a game where an Auction House isnt really an AH, but a Job listing, for example you want "Sword X" you search the AH database of "who" can craft it, and it will give you a list with (online/offline) status's, where you then actually need to interact with a player, It might not be all that much different but at least its a step back in the right direction

    Thoughts?

    I recall in EQ when we had the Bazaar. (For those that don't know) They had stalls where players could park their characters to peddle their wares. A LOT of players actually sat at their character and bartered with others, and  would have messages they'd say when players passed by trying to entice them in to buy their goods.

    I myself spent countless hours in the bazaar doing the same thing and had a blast doing it just as much as I did adventuring. Made a boat load of plat to boot! Even remember some places being trader hubs besides the Bazaar that players used because they were high traffic areas.

     

    Who remembers "Selling a stack of bat wings at T1!"

    So anyways,  I don't believe they are completely bad for community...it's just how it is implemented into the game that determines that. Done like above? It allows for interaction still. Done like WoW or beyond? Just set it in a window and that's it...sells or is returned automatically...no interaction at all.

  • yewsefyewsef KuwaitPosts: 335Member
    I agree with the op. Auction Houses are one of the factors that reduced player communication along with the quest driven approach, solo ability till max level and instances.

    An MMORPG should not be convenient all the time. Otherwise it will lose its purpose.
  • MyrdynnMyrdynn Beaumont, CAPosts: 1,518Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Goatgod76
    Originally posted by Myrdynn

    I have long been thinking of posting this, finally getting a little time to do so.  While playing some games recently, TSW, GW2, SWtor, TERA, etc over the last year, it has dawned on me that the biggest community killer is the Auction House.  Recently games (TSW and GW2) launched without a proper AH, and until they were put in place, people actually talked in the channels, making deals, helping people, selling mats etc.  I actually made a couple acquaintances that were heavy crafters, who just were after all the supplies they could get their hands on, and I was willing to help em out.  It was a good relationship.  Then the AH was fixed, and since then I havent even talked to a single person in game.  Before you say, well I should try making friends, there really is nothing in either TSW or GW2 that having friends makes beneficial.  I dont need them to do anything in game, I dont need them to craft anything for me, etc.

    Now long ago, the games we played didnt have Auction Houses, and they were very strong communities.  Everyone on a server knew that if you wanted a Ubersword of Giant Slaying, that BobJohnson was the one that could craft it the best, or you could at least ask around and see if someone could hook you up.  This built community, numerous times, a conversation would go something like.  Hey I hear you can make me "item X', sure I can, but the mats are really tough to come by.  But why dont we get a group together and go out on a hunting party to find them.  You get your mats, you help me skill up one of my crafting skills, its a win/win.  Friendships were formed, alliances were forged, etc.

    Unfortunately with the have it all now crowd that play MMO's Auction Houses are an evil necessity.  You collect your mats, sell them on the AH for X currency, then search for the item you want and bam, you got it, very short time, very EZ.  But during this time, you have no interaction with another player whatsoever, hell you dont even know who made you your item.  Items used to be imprinted with crafters as well, so that when someone says hey where did you get that sword you could inspect it and it would say made by "player X".

    Anyways, I know I am going to likely be in the minority, but its something I have been thinking of for some time.  I think a happy medium might be a game where an Auction House isnt really an AH, but a Job listing, for example you want "Sword X" you search the AH database of "who" can craft it, and it will give you a list with (online/offline) status's, where you then actually need to interact with a player, It might not be all that much different but at least its a step back in the right direction

    Thoughts?

    I recall in EQ when we had the Bazaar. (For those that don't know) They had stalls where players could park their characters to peddle their wares. A LOT of players actually sat at their character and bartered with others, and  would have messages they'd say when players passed by trying to entice them in to buy their goods.

    I myself spent countless hours in the bazaar doing the same thing and had a blast doing it just as much as I did adventuring. Made a boat load of plat to boot! Even remember some places being trader hubs besides the Bazaar that players used because they were high traffic areas.

     

    Who remembers "Selling a stack of bat wings at T1!"

    So anyways,  I don't believe they are completely bad for community...it's just how it is implemented into the game that determines that. Done like above? It allows for interaction still. Done like WoW or beyond? Just set it in a window and that's it...sells or is returned automatically...no interaction at all.

    yep in Asheron's Call we set up our own trade hubs in certain cities.  Arwic and Subway were the first great trading places, then Turbine added a Marketplace where we could have our own stalls, and advertise, even write scripts to trade using a 3rd party app.  We also used message boards as an Auction site, it was really cool

     

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

    Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

    It's not rocket science.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,037Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by yewsef
    I agree with the op. Auction Houses are one of the factors that reduced player communication along with the quest driven approach, solo ability till max level and instances.

    An MMORPG should not be convenient all the time. Otherwise it will lose its purpose.

    I think you actually can make shopping items both convinient and still run by players. Like having a arket and trading district in the main cities of the game and rent out booths and stores to players and guilds.

    Merchant guilds is really both convinient and still social.

  • tomato_kwantomato_kwan calgary, ABPosts: 44Member

    Some claims WoW is no longer socialative(is there such a word?).

     

    I organize groups to finish heroics within 10minutes. Did I socialize? (and that's challenging too for those keep saying wow is too easy. Finishing 4 bosses in 10 minutes does require skill......well and loot of course)

     

    I am a crafter. I have a list of 10ish sellers that would constantly feed me with mats.

    I sell my items in trade channel with a much cheaper price than in AH (so I dun have to undercut and people still get my cheap products). Did I socialize?

     

    Socializing is a matter of choice. Nothing of those convenient features killed the community. People did.

    People that whine and did nothing to comprehend the situation killed it further.

     

    edit : adding "does"

  • HazzieHazzie St. Albert, ABPosts: 15Member
    I'm going to agree with some of the other posters and say dungeon finder - specifically the cross realm aka no accountability for acting like a d-bag - has ruined the social aspect of mmos for myself.

    For WoW in particular, the royal pain that is called CRZ is the main reason I haven't upgraded to MoP or resubbed and don't plan to until it's rectified.
  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

    Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

    It's not rocket science.

    Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

    Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

    You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

    If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Indol

    I think nixing the idea of the AH goes hand in hand with nixing global chat.

     

    A realistic approach to player interaction is more conducive to immersing people in a world than one that people can associate with forums or IM'ing which will cause people to act differently than if communcation and interaction were all done in the context of the actual game.

    Which is exactly what i do NOT want. "realistic" is not necessarily fun to me. I want cross realm grouping. I want IM chat. I am not livnig a second life, i am playing a multiplayer game. Anything that makes playing with people easier (like NOT restricting me to people on a server) is a GOOD thing in my book.

    You, and others like you are the reason that all games are being made the same way, and thus, the reason many games can't hold a lot of peoples attention past the first month. I've said this to you MANY times, LEAVE THOSE WHO WANT A DIFFERENT GAME ALONE! It's all well and good that you feel the need to present your argument for making all games the same, but you need to understand that other people have different interests that don't need to coincide with what you believe is "GOOD". Every thread that has someones opinion on what they don't like in a game, is shortly followed up by you stating how what is already being done, should be continued. The OP is not arguing for ALL games to have it removed, nor is he arguing that all games going forward should have the AH removed either. He is sharing an opinion, you are sharing your's, but regardless of anyone elses opinion, you come back and try to find a way to nicely state they are wrong. 

    What make your interests more important than mine? If you can talk about it, so can i. And i just say what is fun for me .. no different than you.

    Thank everything that the world of gaming doesnt revolve around you. Otherwise I'd have no hopes for an MMO to come around and capture my attention span for more than a month. You remind me of that guy who bought GW2 and started complaining it should be more like WoW, when it already is a lot like WoW. Heaven forbid one game is different! (even if GW2 is pretty standard, but down scaled).

    Neither revolve around you. We all vote with our wallets. We willl see whose preferences devs pay attention to. And i do like different games. Borderland 2 is very different from Diablo3, and very different from WOW.

    And why would i care if you have no MMO to play? That is not my problem.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

    Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

    You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

    If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

    This "force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like" is getting old.

    Everyone is just talking about what they like. And it is not like people don't understand you can't change minds on the Internet.

    So what if some like to do cooperative crafting. I don't. That is not what i play a game for. And it is also not like there is no such game .. Tales in the Desert is one.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

    Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

    It's not rocket science.

    Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

    Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

    You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

    If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

    I'm not trying to force anyone into any belief.  Not sure where you got that idea.  I'm merely asking why someone feels they need to be forced to be social.  Rather than having games that allow for being social, i.e. grouping, dungeons, etc.

     

    So, you're right, I don't get why people need to be forced to do something if they can't just do it on their own.  Then when they don't do it on their own, they get upset and say it's the developers fault.  Yeah, I don't get that at all.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

    Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

    It's not rocket science.

    Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

    Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

    You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

    If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

    I'm not trying to force anyone into any belief.  Not sure where you got that idea.  I'm merely asking why someone feels they need to be forced to be social.  Rather than having games that allow for being social, i.e. grouping, dungeons, etc.

     

    So, you're right, I don't get why people need to be forced to do something if they can't just do it on their own.  Then when they don't do it on their own, they get upset and say it's the developers fault.  Yeah, I don't get that at all.

    Ok.  One question.

    What do you think about an idea to make ALL dungeons and raids avabile for solo player to complete and get same rewards as group does ?

  • vonryan123vonryan123 Not home, MIPosts: 151Member Uncommon

    Ok.  One question.

    What do you think about an idea to make ALL dungeons and raids avabile for solo player to complete and get same rewards as group does ?

    that's the way it is now gimmie gimmie now now now

     

    welcome to 2012

     

     

    sucks most of the true rpg players are going back to solo rpgs not mmo's (at least i am)

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    Ok.  One question.

    What do you think about an idea to make ALL dungeons and raids avabile for solo player to complete and get same rewards as group does ?

    Great. Nothing wrong with that. This is just like Diablo 3. Same random drops in solo or group play. I will choose depending on whether i am in a mood to play with others.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by vonryan123

     

    sucks most of the true rpg players are going back to solo rpgs not mmo's (at least i am)

    It is not like the MMO market needs "true rpg players". There are more than 47M mmo players just in the US, and the market is multiple billion strong.

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by vonryan123

    sucks most of the true rpg players are going back to solo rpgs not mmo's (at least i am)

    Yeah, speak for yourself.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ImpacatusImpacatus San Diego, CAPosts: 436Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

    Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

    It's not rocket science.

    Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

    Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

    You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

    If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

    I'm not trying to force anyone into any belief.  Not sure where you got that idea.  I'm merely asking why someone feels they need to be forced to be social.  Rather than having games that allow for being social, i.e. grouping, dungeons, etc.

     

    So, you're right, I don't get why people need to be forced to do something if they can't just do it on their own.  Then when they don't do it on their own, they get upset and say it's the developers fault.  Yeah, I don't get that at all.

    As I said earlier, it's like playing cards.  People meet up with their buddies for poker, but you never heard of people meeting for solitaire.  That would be daft.

    I want to play a game with other people, not just talk to them while we're all playing by ourselves.  Some games require more than one player to be fun.  The economy game is fun to me, but only if I can play it with other people.  That's only possible if the game mechanics support it, and if people aren't "forced" to follow a reasonable set of rules, there is no game.

    If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

    Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

    It's not rocket science.

    Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

    Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

    You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

    If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

    I'm not trying to force anyone into any belief.  Not sure where you got that idea.  I'm merely asking why someone feels they need to be forced to be social.  Rather than having games that allow for being social, i.e. grouping, dungeons, etc.

     

    So, you're right, I don't get why people need to be forced to do something if they can't just do it on their own.  Then when they don't do it on their own, they get upset and say it's the developers fault.  Yeah, I don't get that at all.

    Ok.  One question.

    What do you think about an idea to make ALL dungeons and raids avabile for solo player to complete and get same rewards as group does ?

    If a dev wants to make a game like that, I have no problem with it.  Would I play it?  Probably.  I'd probably run it both ways.  That's what I've been saying.  To me, it's better when you have the choice.  Sometimes I would make the choice to group with others, sometimes not.  I see nothing wrong with having that choice.

     

    I'll never understand I guess why some people need to be forced to do things they claim are the best things to do.  If the game's mechanics allow for both styles of play without penalty and you think the best way to play is in a group, then get a group together.  However, if someone wants to run it by themselves, I see nothing wrong with that either.  People play different ways, and I'm glad some developers have decided to respect that.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member
    Originally posted by Impacatus
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

    Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

    It's not rocket science.

    Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

    Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

    You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

    If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

    I'm not trying to force anyone into any belief.  Not sure where you got that idea.  I'm merely asking why someone feels they need to be forced to be social.  Rather than having games that allow for being social, i.e. grouping, dungeons, etc.

     

    So, you're right, I don't get why people need to be forced to do something if they can't just do it on their own.  Then when they don't do it on their own, they get upset and say it's the developers fault.  Yeah, I don't get that at all.

    As I said earlier, it's like playing cards.  People meet up with their buddies for poker, but you never heard of people meeting for solitaire.  That would be daft.

    I want to play a game with other people, not just talk to them while we're all playing by ourselves.  Some games require more than one player to be fun.  The economy game is fun to me, but only if I can play it with other people.  That's only possible if the game mechanics support it, and if people aren't "forced" to follow a reasonable set of rules, there is no game.

    Solitaire is a game developed specifically for one person.  Poker is a game specifically for more than one.  Your analogy breaks down in that I'm talking about games that are developed with both styles of play in mind.  A closer analogy would be poker you could play by yourself, if you wanted, or solitaire that a group of people could play together.

     

    It's all about choices.

     

     

    EDIT:  Sorry, guys.  One of these days I'll get the hang of the multiquote function.  :)

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    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by fenistil
    Originally posted by evolver1972

    MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

    Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

    It's not rocket science.

    Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

    Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

    You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

    If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

    I'm not trying to force anyone into any belief.  Not sure where you got that idea.  I'm merely asking why someone feels they need to be forced to be social.  Rather than having games that allow for being social, i.e. grouping, dungeons, etc.

     

    So, you're right, I don't get why people need to be forced to do something if they can't just do it on their own.  Then when they don't do it on their own, they get upset and say it's the developers fault.  Yeah, I don't get that at all.

    Ok.  One question.

    What do you think about an idea to make ALL dungeons and raids avabile for solo player to complete and get same rewards as group does ?

    If a dev wants to make a game like that, I have no problem with it.  Would I play it?  Probably.  I'd probably run it both ways.  That's what I've been saying.  To me, it's better when you have the choice.  Sometimes I would make the choice to group with others, sometimes not.  I see nothing wrong with having that choice.

     

    I'll never understand I guess why some people need to be forced to do things they claim are the best things to do.  If the game's mechanics allow for both styles of play without penalty and you think the best way to play is in a group, then get a group together.  However, if someone wants to run it by themselves, I see nothing wrong with that either.  People play different ways, and I'm glad some developers have decided to respect that.

    Thing is there is always penalty.  If you have same rewards solo and group, then crushing majority of people will go solo option because it is more effective.   You can go solo immedietaly,  while for a group even if you like and play game with auto LFG system it takes time.   So grouping is penalized. 

    If you give bigger rewards for doing it in the group, then you penalize those who want to play only solo.

    This was proven to be true both with group quests and scalable instances (like Lotro skirmishes).

     

    ---------------

    Another thing.    Now we have 2012.  It is not 1997 where you had in west basically one mmorpg avablable in west or even 1999 when you had ~4 of them.   Nowadays it is wide market with dozens of mmorpg's. 

    So have you considered granting people a choice?  Instead forcing certain game design upon people which you think is best, maybe just accept that there are other people who want to play with similar minded people in game that they prefer?

    Noone is forcing you. You can just simply don't play if there is a game with mechanics or design you just like. 

    Forcing argument is simply not true, as noone can force you to play certain game.  Why would you even decide to play it.

    In example I bought GW2. It is fine game, but I found that I don't like it. I stopped playing, discussed a bit about it and that's it problem solved. I don't go trying to convince me that anyone forced me to play it or complain that it should be changed.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by vonryan123

     

    sucks most of the true rpg players are going back to solo rpgs not mmo's (at least i am)

    It is not like the MMO market needs "true rpg players". There are more than 47M mmo players just in the US, and the market is multiple billion strong.

     

    "True rpg players" (or sandbox players or whatever) = the speaker, whoever that is.

    My grandma used to say "all right-thinking people", to indicate that everyone sensible (self-evidently) thought exactly as she did.

    In the 80s, it was the Moral Majority.

    In the 00s, it was the Tea Party.

    This shouldn't require any explanation in a society that votes, of course...politicians love to use that trick repeatedly.  Particularly 'reform' candidates.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 SPosts: 510Member
    Originally posted by Jemcrystal

    Why are you people constantly obsessing over socializing in games?  You sound like homemaker wives who buzz a dude's ear off and he just wants to relax, eat his pizza, watch sports and go to bed.  If you want to talk so much join a quilting club not an mmo.

    I don't know what the other think, but i  when speak of "socialization", i am talking about political, economic and military relations with other real humans, no the "talking" or "grouping" (although these actions are necessary to interactions).

    "What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

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