I don't think the grind is the problem. The problem is the lack of a proportional reward for the grind. Even sPVP needs to reward those players with ladder rankings.
The "grind" is optional. If you want a super amazing looking set, then set that as your goal. If you don't want it, then don't do it. I really hate when players complain that there isn't anything to do. There's a lot of things to do, they just don't want to do them. They might not like the content, but it's there.
End-game gear isn't the only thing to strive for in GW2. Same goes for almost all MMOs, such as, Lotro, WoW, AoC, Swtor, etc.
400 Max. for all crafting disciplines.
Explorable Dungeon runs for gear.
WvW.
SPvP (ranks).
100% map completion.
Achievements. (there's a lot of these)
Personal Story.
Alts.
Mystic Forge discoveries.
Jumping Puzzles.
Dynamic Events (hundreds?).
Roleplay (if you're into it).
Create your own guild/public events (be creative).
etc..
There's really no character progression if you have all exotics. Sure legendaries are nice but not THAT nice.
There is stuff to do, but for me personally I just don't want to run dungeons for cosmetics. the only reason I would go back to crafting is for the legendary but meh.
I don't feel misled or bitter. I just lost interest.
I think pve has got it perfect, the rewards are loot drops, and beyond dungeon tokens most rewards can be turned into gold which you can assign to any goal you fancy. spvp does have issues as the motivation for pvp is very different.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
It does all feel somewhat "meh" to me now tbh. It's got some great little features, does a lot of things well and is amazing value for money. But currently it offers jumping puzzles and sPvP and that is about it, for me anyway.
BUT it allows instant access to those things and the potential to keep going back for updates, or whenever the fancy takes me. It will run nicely alongside Unholy Wars in the future. So no real complaints.
Others are ofc, having a blast and enjoying their time and will continue to do so, fair play to them and I hope they do indeed continue to have great fun.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by aesperus As for the word 'grind', I think if people actually took a step back and looked at what they are calling a grind now, vs. what they considered a grind 2-4 years ago, they'd be shocked. Grind is quickly becoming synonymous with 'anything repetative', which is basically any videogame ever made, ever. What grind used to be, is a mundaine repeated task that was required in order to progress. GW2 doesn't have that. The 'grind' in this game is one that is completely optional. Sure there's incentives to do it, but as some have said, it's definitely a more longterm goal. You are still just as powerful w/ out a legendary, you just won't be cleaving the night sky, or shooting rainbows out of your butt.
Ah no, grind means going for the next tier of gear, rank or whatever, SWTOR and WoW has the most OBVIOUS grind; tier based dungeon and pvp gear, and I grew to freaking hate that because once you've accomplished enough pieces the devs add another set for you to go after, it got really bad in pvp with SWTOR.
There is a cosmetic grind in this game, but I've found enough mid-level gear that looks cool on my toons with a decent combination of dye colors. I'll keep playing the game until I gain enough gold or karma or skillpoint to get something new past 80, I don't even think about grinding anything- just play the game.
I am certainly not decked out in exotic gear. Max stat gear does require some grind, but the benefit gained is not super large.
41k Karma per karma vendor armour, 10-12 gold per cultural piece, 200-300 tokens per piece for dungeon armour.
There is grind with max level gear, but rares and even blue gear is good enough for every bit of content in the game.
Why would you buy cultural pieces lol? The entire intent of them is as a cosmetic addition.
Dungeon armor is intended to be cosmetic as well.
Exotic armor crafted specifically for your build costs 2-3g per piece and is always available at the TP. Exotic weapons of the same variety also cost 2-3g.
It takes about an hour and a half in Orr to make 2-3g, you could have your entire set in a single day if you wanted, minus jewelry.
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
It's pretty much the same as every other themeparks "endgame" and suffers from exactly the same issues, you just get there faster and don't fork over money every month to do so.
Get your exotics (quickly), then run dungeons (raids) or WvWvW (door banging lake pvp).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I am certainly not decked out in exotic gear. Max stat gear does require some grind, but the benefit gained is not super large.
41k Karma per karma vendor armour, 10-12 gold per cultural piece, 200-300 tokens per piece for dungeon armour.
There is grind with max level gear, but rares and even blue gear is good enough for every bit of content in the game.
Why would you buy cultural pieces lol? The entire intent of them is as a cosmetic addition.
Dungeon armor is intended to be cosmetic as well.
Exotic armor crafted specifically for your build costs 2-3g per piece and is always available at the TP. Exotic weapons of the same variety also cost 2-3g.
It takes about an hour and a half in Orr to make 2-3g, you could have your entire set in a single day if you wanted, minus jewelry.
You're doing it wrong.
God forbid he doesn't spend every waking hour in GW2 farming gold.
I said from the start that this game has a grind. Though it's only for cosmetics. Getting full exotics is pretty easy and not much grind required. If you want dungeon sets or a legendary weapon then yeah the grind is huge.
P.S. You can beat story mode with junk blues and greens you pick up on the way so you can "beat the game" without any grind other than getting to max level which is also very easy.
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
400 Max. for all crafting disciplines. (maxed 3 professions - friends got the other 5)
Explorable Dungeon runs for gear. (I did each at least once and I have no drive to run them 30-50 times more to get a cosmetic upgrade - which aren't even that great looking)
WvW. (this one is ok for the first week or two weeks, then it really gets monotonous. Zerg here, zerg there)
SPvP (ranks). (sPvP is ok - I had the most fun here. Then i consider how much time I spent doing BG's in Rift and SWTOR and WoW for that matter... its kind of the same with no substantial reward except cosmetic stuff. I would say the cosmetics in this department are WAY better, but nobody will ever see them except for in the Mist)
TPvP. (Can be much better than SPvP - less glory gain, but you can get some titles)
100% map completion. (done)
Achievements. (there's a lot of these) (completed most but the very grindy ones i.e. kill 5000 enemies with sheild etc.)
Personal Story. (5 characters. Once they hit 50, the story converges into the same story - so for the most part except for some story-arches I've not seen, done.)
Dynamic Events (hundreds?). (The only one's worth doing are in Orr so you can also mine worthwhile materials around the area. So I would say more like 10's to do. And once you've done an invasion DE or Escort DE, you've literally done them all.)
Roleplay (if you're into it). (No thanks)
Create your own guild/public events (be creative). (Social aspects of this game are way too lacking for anyone to want to do this. Anet would have to sponsor these events for anyone to show any interest.)
etc.. (game uninstalled)
I got my 60$ out of the game. It's b2p so when more stuff gets added I might mess around. The stuff I've done would take a casual player much longer to complete, but honestly, once you hit 80 and do most of the content. You're left with an indescribably insane grind for the last carrot - the legendary. Which adds a very minor stat increase over the Exotic. It does change your spell effects. Also, if you got one, you would be among the 1% of people who are crazy enough to get it. (Search reddit about the estimated material/karma cost of a legendary and be suprised)
To those still enjoying, have fun :-) I'm not trying to make anyone stop playing - This is how it happened to me. That's it.
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I think you are missing his point. He is simply saying, at least I think he is, that you are never required to raid. Just because it is there, does not mean you have to do it.
Hell I played WoW for three years, and never did more than a ten man raid, and only a few times really. There was always something to work for that did not require raiding (incidentally the same is true I feel for GW2, I just don't see it taking me three years to do all those things). Was I competitive in pvp? No, not really, but I didn't care, I just did it for fun, the way we are supposed to play GW2 ;-)
While there are plenty of games with raids in them for those so inclined, there are very few raid free games. The thing is, people seem to think that because raids exist, you *have* to do them, which is just not true. I feel the flaw in Anet's design is that they (again, imho) gain nothing by refuting raids, and not having them, except to limit their content to a certain design, which is fine, but they are disavowing their self stated goal of knocking WoW off of it's golden throne. I suppose that was all marketing bluster at any rate, though.
I am happy with the game how it is, and if there were raids, I would not do them anyway. But to say the game is somehow better because it does *not* have raids, just kind of does not make sense to me. Raids are just one of many things to do in a game like this, why deny *any* aspect is my thinking, but then I am not a game developer.
400 Max. for all crafting disciplines. (maxed 3 professions - friends got the other 5)
Explorable Dungeon runs for gear. (I did each at least once and I have no drive to run them 30-50 times more to get a cosmetic upgrade - which aren't even that great looking)
WvW. (this one is ok for the first week or two weeks, then it really gets monotonous. Zerg here, zerg there)
SPvP (ranks). (sPvP is ok - I had the most fun here. Then i consider how much time I spent doing BG's in Rift and SWTOR and WoW for that matter... its kind of the same with no substantial reward except cosmetic stuff. I would say the cosmetics in this department are WAY better, but nobody will ever see them except for in the Mist)
TPvP. (Can be much better than SPvP - less glory gain, but you can get some titles)
100% map completion. (done)
Achievements. (there's a lot of these) (completed most but the very grindy ones i.e. kill 5000 enemies with sheild etc.)
Personal Story. (5 characters. Once they hit 50, the story converges into the same story - so for the most part except for some story-arches I've not seen, done.)
Dynamic Events (hundreds?). (The only one's worth doing are in Orr so you can also mine worthwhile materials around the area. So I would say more like 10's to do. And once you've done an invasion DE or Escort DE, you've literally done them all.)
Roleplay (if you're into it). (No thanks)
Create your own guild/public events (be creative). (Social aspects of this game are way too lacking for anyone to want to do this. Anet would have to sponsor these events for anyone to show any interest.)
etc.. (game uninstalled)
I got my 60$ out of the game. It's b2p so when more stuff gets added I might mess around. The stuff I've done would take a casual player much longer to complete, but honestly, once you hit 80 and do most of the content. You're left with an indescribably insane grind for the last carrot - the legendary. Which adds a very minor stat increase over the Exotic. It does change your spell effects. Also, if you got one, you would be among the 1% of people who are crazy enough to get it. (Search reddit about the estimated material/karma cost of a legendary and be suprised)
To those still enjoying, have fun :-) I'm not trying to make anyone stop playing - This is how it happened to me. That's it.
You're obviously a hardcore gamer with a lot of time (or content locust, as some people call them). Luckily for you, you can always come back when more content is added.
I think you are missing his point. He is simply saying, at least I think he is, that you are never required to raid. Just because it is there, does not mean you have to do it.
*snip*
But that's my point.. there is gated content in those games.. content you cannot do or complete without doing some sort of dungeon grind. Doesn't matter whether you "need" to do it or not. GW2 offers you the entire game without the need to do any of that. Anytime they add anything it will be available to people without having to grind out another set of this or that. The advantage of this is not spending countless hours and resources in a department to create raid content. This frees up time and people to work on other aspects the bigger majority of players with be participating in. This to me is a huge difference and why I enjoy ANETs design as opposed to other themeparks and don't see why certain people can't see the difference here.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I think you are missing his point. He is simply saying, at least I think he is, that you are never required to raid. Just because it is there, does not mean you have to do it.
Hell I played WoW for three years, and never did more than a ten man raid, and only a few times really. There was always something to work for that did not require raiding (incidentally the same is true I feel for GW2, I just don't see it taking me three years to do all those things). Was I competitive in pvp? No, not really, but I didn't care, I just did it for fun, the way we are supposed to play GW2 ;-)
While there are plenty of games with raids in them for those so inclined, there are very few raid free games. The thing is, people seem to think that because raids exist, you *have* to do them, which is just not true. I feel the flaw in Anet's design is that they (again, imho) gain nothing by refuting raids, and not having them, except to limit their content to a certain design, which is fine, but they are disavowing their self stated goal of knocking WoW off of it's golden throne. I suppose that was all marketing bluster at any rate, though.
I am happy with the game how it is, and if there were raids, I would not do them anyway. But to say the game is somehow better because it does *not* have raids, just kind of does not make sense to me. Raids are just one of many things to do in a game like this, why deny *any* aspect is my thinking, but then I am not a game developer.
You dont have to do them but its not nice to not be able to enjoy content you have paid for because you have a life.
You dont have to do them but its not nice to not be able to enjoy content you have paid for because you have a life.
I'm not sure why this should really bother an mmo player. The games are (generally) meant to cater to a wide range of players with a wide range of how much time they have to actually play.
I don't have the time for long ass stuff, but I'm glad it is added for those that do and for when I get the chance to clear a weekend etc.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I have for quite awhile...
You get the raiding gear AFTER you do the raid... You start the raids with dungeon gear. This is where GW2 stops, at dungeon gear. You don't grind for raid gear, then go do the raid.
The difference between the two is that raid gear does not exist in GW2 because there is no raid content... There is only the Heroic dungeon tier. Nothing was changed, raiding was just left out.
They sure did market the hell out this game.
edit - matter of fact instead of having another tier of content and gear, the simple made legendaries. I'm sure they saved a lot of money doing it that way.
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I have for quite awhile...
You get the raiding gear AFTER you do the raid... You start the raids with dungeon gear. This is where GW2 stops, at dungeon gear. You don't grind for raid gear, then go do the raid.
The difference between the two is that raid gear does not exist in GW2 because there is no raid content... There is only the Heroic dungeon tier. Nothing was changed, raiding was just left out.
They sure did market the hell out this game.
edit - matter of fact instead of having another tier of content and gear, the simple made legendaries. I'm sure they saved a lot of money doing it that way.
You sorta completely missed his point. His point is doing tier 7 raid with dungeon gear. Not doing tier 1. Of course you can easily do Tier 1 raid's with dungeon gear that's the point.
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I have for quite awhile...
You get the raiding gear AFTER you do the raid... You start the raids with dungeon gear. This is where GW2 stops, at dungeon gear. You don't grind for raid gear, then go do the raid.
The difference between the two is that raid gear does not exist in GW2 because there is no raid content... There is only the Heroic dungeon tier. Nothing was changed, raiding was just left out.
They sure did market the hell out this game.
edit - matter of fact instead of having another tier of content and gear, the simple made legendaries. I'm sure they saved a lot of money doing it that way.
You sorta completely missed his point. His point is doing tier 7 raid with dungeon gear. Not doing tier 1. Of course you can easily do Tier 1 raid's with dungeon gear that's the point.
at least someone got it...
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I have for quite awhile...
You get the raiding gear AFTER you do the raid... You start the raids with dungeon gear. This is where GW2 stops, at dungeon gear. You don't grind for raid gear, then go do the raid.
The difference between the two is that raid gear does not exist in GW2 because there is no raid content... There is only the Heroic dungeon tier. Nothing was changed, raiding was just left out.
They sure did market the hell out this game.
edit - matter of fact instead of having another tier of content and gear, the simple made legendaries. I'm sure they saved a lot of money doing it that way.
You sorta completely missed his point. His point is doing tier 7 raid with dungeon gear. Not doing tier 1. Of course you can easily do Tier 1 raid's with dungeon gear that's the point.
at least someone got it...
I got it as well, you make a fair point I think, you can play any and all content from the openning of the gates, just by levelling up and simply doing it. Nothing is locked away.
However, his point is fair too. They did that simply by excluding content many other games have. They did not add an alternative to what would take your time playing through raids, they simply said "not in this game."
I think that is fine, but you should not sell it like they added something other games do not have. Rift, for instance, has everything GW2 has, plus raiding. Yes, Anet took some different ways of approaching the game systems, but they simply said no to raiding. If you take away raiding, Rift and WoW, and practically every other game out there can make the same claim, that all content is available to you right away (of course they have subs, but that is a different issue).
Not that that is a bad thing. Anet did it a certain way, and I enjoy it for what it is, but to me it just lacks longevity and is becoming another filler game played between other MMORPGs, which is less than I had hoped it would be for me.
I am glad people like it, and I hope it has a long long life and grows into a deeper, richer world. I will definitely be done when I hit 80 and fill the map, but I will absolutely come back for expansions in the future. I do not feel ripped off, I just don't feel it was what I hoped it would be.
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I have for quite awhile...
You get the raiding gear AFTER you do the raid... You start the raids with dungeon gear. This is where GW2 stops, at dungeon gear. You don't grind for raid gear, then go do the raid.
The difference between the two is that raid gear does not exist in GW2 because there is no raid content... There is only the Heroic dungeon tier. Nothing was changed, raiding was just left out.
They sure did market the hell out this game.
edit - matter of fact instead of having another tier of content and gear, the simple made legendaries. I'm sure they saved a lot of money doing it that way.
You sorta completely missed his point. His point is doing tier 7 raid with dungeon gear. Not doing tier 1. Of course you can easily do Tier 1 raid's with dungeon gear that's the point.
at least someone got it...
I got it as well, you make a fair point I think, you can play any and all content from the openning of the gates, just by levelling up and simply doing it. Nothing is locked away.
However, his point is fair too. They did that simply by excluding content many other games have. They did not add an alternative to what would take your time playing through raids, they simply said "not in this game."
I think that is fine, but you should not sell it like they added something other games do not have. Rift, for instance, has everything GW2 has, plus raiding. Yes, Anet took some different ways of approaching the game systems, but they simply said no to raiding. If you take away raiding, Rift and WoW, and practically every other game out there can make the same claim, that all content is available to you right away (of course they have subs, but that is a different issue).
Not that that is a bad thing. Anet did it a certain way, and I enjoy it for what it is, but to me it just lacks longevity and is becoming another filler game played between other MMORPGs, which is less than I had hoped it would be for me.
I am glad people like it, and I hope it has a long long life and grows into a deeper, richer world. I will definitely be done when I hit 80 and fill the map, but I will absolutely come back for expansions in the future. I do not feel ripped off, I just don't feel it was what I hoped it would be.
But considering ANet's philosoply, even if they did add raids, it would still not be gated by gear, it would only contain different skins, but you could go to any of them in your level 80 exotics. Guess that would be the difference, if GW2 had them.
Originally posted by Bladestrom That is true, im more ir less agreeing with you. the problem comes not from gw2 but from games like wow that focuses its gameplay with dungeon repetition. The majority of mmorg players are forced to grind dungeons. Gw2 has lots of repetition all over the place and as I say it is not a grind purely because it would only be a grind if you were daft enough to take part in repetitive activity that you don't find fun.
Repetitive activity = grind if you don't want to do it.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I have for quite awhile...
You get the raiding gear AFTER you do the raid... You start the raids with dungeon gear. This is where GW2 stops, at dungeon gear. You don't grind for raid gear, then go do the raid.
The difference between the two is that raid gear does not exist in GW2 because there is no raid content... There is only the Heroic dungeon tier. Nothing was changed, raiding was just left out.
They sure did market the hell out this game.
edit - matter of fact instead of having another tier of content and gear, the simple made legendaries. I'm sure they saved a lot of money doing it that way.
You sorta completely missed his point. His point is doing tier 7 raid with dungeon gear. Not doing tier 1. Of course you can easily do Tier 1 raid's with dungeon gear that's the point.
at least someone got it...
I got it as well, you make a fair point I think, you can play any and all content from the openning of the gates, just by levelling up and simply doing it. Nothing is locked away.
However, his point is fair too. They did that simply by excluding content many other games have. They did not add an alternative to what would take your time playing through raids, they simply said "not in this game."
I think that is fine, but you should not sell it like they added something other games do not have. Rift, for instance, has everything GW2 has, plus raiding. Yes, Anet took some different ways of approaching the game systems, but they simply said no to raiding. If you take away raiding, Rift and WoW, and practically every other game out there can make the same claim, that all content is available to you right away (of course they have subs, but that is a different issue).
Not that that is a bad thing. Anet did it a certain way, and I enjoy it for what it is, but to me it just lacks longevity and is becoming another filler game played between other MMORPGs, which is less than I had hoped it would be for me.
I am glad people like it, and I hope it has a long long life and grows into a deeper, richer world. I will definitely be done when I hit 80 and fill the map, but I will absolutely come back for expansions in the future. I do not feel ripped off, I just don't feel it was what I hoped it would be.
This arguement would make sense if GW2 offered an alternateive. It simply doesn't, So where you have "gated" contnet meaning you have to progress through lower levels and pass through that as a "gate" GW2 alternative is what? A smooth wall? Nothing there? no options? How's that better?
The thread is about grinding,in a tier based mmorg you must grind past tier 1/fate1 to have enough stats to do tier 3. Example you cannot do heroic raids in blues. Grind is repetitive content you must do regardless of wether you like it or not. I want to do not want to do tier 1 but I want to do tier 3.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
There's really no character progression if you have all exotics. Sure legendaries are nice but not THAT nice.
There is stuff to do, but for me personally I just don't want to run dungeons for cosmetics. the only reason I would go back to crafting is for the legendary but meh.
I don't feel misled or bitter. I just lost interest.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
It does all feel somewhat "meh" to me now tbh. It's got some great little features, does a lot of things well and is amazing value for money. But currently it offers jumping puzzles and sPvP and that is about it, for me anyway.
BUT it allows instant access to those things and the potential to keep going back for updates, or whenever the fancy takes me. It will run nicely alongside Unholy Wars in the future. So no real complaints.
Others are ofc, having a blast and enjoying their time and will continue to do so, fair play to them and I hope they do indeed continue to have great fun.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
There is a cosmetic grind in this game, but I've found enough mid-level gear that looks cool on my toons with a decent combination of dye colors. I'll keep playing the game until I gain enough gold or karma or skillpoint to get something new past 80, I don't even think about grinding anything- just play the game.
Why would you buy cultural pieces lol? The entire intent of them is as a cosmetic addition.
Dungeon armor is intended to be cosmetic as well.
Exotic armor crafted specifically for your build costs 2-3g per piece and is always available at the TP. Exotic weapons of the same variety also cost 2-3g.
It takes about an hour and a half in Orr to make 2-3g, you could have your entire set in a single day if you wanted, minus jewelry.
You're doing it wrong.
This is another one of those half truths floating around, being "forced" to grind dungeons in other games. You are no more forced "to take part in repetitive activity" in those games than you are in GW2. It's pretty much the same in this respect.
It's pretty much the same as every other themeparks "endgame" and suffers from exactly the same issues, you just get there faster and don't fork over money every month to do so.
Get your exotics (quickly), then run dungeons (raids) or WvWvW (door banging lake pvp).
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
God forbid he doesn't spend every waking hour in GW2 farming gold.
I said from the start that this game has a grind. Though it's only for cosmetics. Getting full exotics is pretty easy and not much grind required. If you want dungeon sets or a legendary weapon then yeah the grind is huge.
P.S. You can beat story mode with junk blues and greens you pick up on the way so you can "beat the game" without any grind other than getting to max level which is also very easy.
My theme song.
have you never done a tier based raiding game before? try to play one of those and do the highest tier raid without any raiding gear and see how well you do.. the BIG difference which I still can't see how you don't see it is in GW2 you are not required to continuously repeat content to get gear that allows you to play all of the games content.. this simply is not true in other raid based games.. Again both have their advantages and disadvantages but how you can't differentiate between the two is beyond me.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I got my 60$ out of the game. It's b2p so when more stuff gets added I might mess around. The stuff I've done would take a casual player much longer to complete, but honestly, once you hit 80 and do most of the content. You're left with an indescribably insane grind for the last carrot - the legendary. Which adds a very minor stat increase over the Exotic. It does change your spell effects. Also, if you got one, you would be among the 1% of people who are crazy enough to get it. (Search reddit about the estimated material/karma cost of a legendary and be suprised)
To those still enjoying, have fun :-) I'm not trying to make anyone stop playing - This is how it happened to me. That's it.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I think you are missing his point. He is simply saying, at least I think he is, that you are never required to raid. Just because it is there, does not mean you have to do it.
Hell I played WoW for three years, and never did more than a ten man raid, and only a few times really. There was always something to work for that did not require raiding (incidentally the same is true I feel for GW2, I just don't see it taking me three years to do all those things). Was I competitive in pvp? No, not really, but I didn't care, I just did it for fun, the way we are supposed to play GW2 ;-)
While there are plenty of games with raids in them for those so inclined, there are very few raid free games. The thing is, people seem to think that because raids exist, you *have* to do them, which is just not true. I feel the flaw in Anet's design is that they (again, imho) gain nothing by refuting raids, and not having them, except to limit their content to a certain design, which is fine, but they are disavowing their self stated goal of knocking WoW off of it's golden throne. I suppose that was all marketing bluster at any rate, though.
I am happy with the game how it is, and if there were raids, I would not do them anyway. But to say the game is somehow better because it does *not* have raids, just kind of does not make sense to me. Raids are just one of many things to do in a game like this, why deny *any* aspect is my thinking, but then I am not a game developer.
You're obviously a hardcore gamer with a lot of time (or content locust, as some people call them). Luckily for you, you can always come back when more content is added.
But that's my point.. there is gated content in those games.. content you cannot do or complete without doing some sort of dungeon grind. Doesn't matter whether you "need" to do it or not. GW2 offers you the entire game without the need to do any of that. Anytime they add anything it will be available to people without having to grind out another set of this or that. The advantage of this is not spending countless hours and resources in a department to create raid content. This frees up time and people to work on other aspects the bigger majority of players with be participating in. This to me is a huge difference and why I enjoy ANETs design as opposed to other themeparks and don't see why certain people can't see the difference here.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You dont have to do them but its not nice to not be able to enjoy content you have paid for because you have a life.
I'm not sure why this should really bother an mmo player. The games are (generally) meant to cater to a wide range of players with a wide range of how much time they have to actually play.
I don't have the time for long ass stuff, but I'm glad it is added for those that do and for when I get the chance to clear a weekend etc.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I have for quite awhile...
You get the raiding gear AFTER you do the raid... You start the raids with dungeon gear. This is where GW2 stops, at dungeon gear. You don't grind for raid gear, then go do the raid.
The difference between the two is that raid gear does not exist in GW2 because there is no raid content... There is only the Heroic dungeon tier. Nothing was changed, raiding was just left out.
They sure did market the hell out this game.
edit - matter of fact instead of having another tier of content and gear, the simple made legendaries. I'm sure they saved a lot of money doing it that way.
You sorta completely missed his point. His point is doing tier 7 raid with dungeon gear. Not doing tier 1. Of course you can easily do Tier 1 raid's with dungeon gear that's the point.
at least someone got it...
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I got it as well, you make a fair point I think, you can play any and all content from the openning of the gates, just by levelling up and simply doing it. Nothing is locked away.
However, his point is fair too. They did that simply by excluding content many other games have. They did not add an alternative to what would take your time playing through raids, they simply said "not in this game."
I think that is fine, but you should not sell it like they added something other games do not have. Rift, for instance, has everything GW2 has, plus raiding. Yes, Anet took some different ways of approaching the game systems, but they simply said no to raiding. If you take away raiding, Rift and WoW, and practically every other game out there can make the same claim, that all content is available to you right away (of course they have subs, but that is a different issue).
Not that that is a bad thing. Anet did it a certain way, and I enjoy it for what it is, but to me it just lacks longevity and is becoming another filler game played between other MMORPGs, which is less than I had hoped it would be for me.
I am glad people like it, and I hope it has a long long life and grows into a deeper, richer world. I will definitely be done when I hit 80 and fill the map, but I will absolutely come back for expansions in the future. I do not feel ripped off, I just don't feel it was what I hoped it would be.
But considering ANet's philosoply, even if they did add raids, it would still not be gated by gear, it would only contain different skins, but you could go to any of them in your level 80 exotics. Guess that would be the difference, if GW2 had them.
This arguement would make sense if GW2 offered an alternateive. It simply doesn't, So where you have "gated" contnet meaning you have to progress through lower levels and pass through that as a "gate" GW2 alternative is what? A smooth wall? Nothing there? no options? How's that better?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D