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We just need more AAA Sandboxes...............there's never been one
I think now it's the time.
Originally posted by itgrowls This is nothing but yet another thread from the dieing minority group known as the elitist jerks who spent all their days theorycrafting and with spreadsheets working out how best to raid so they could spend the other 9 hours out of their day wondering around PVP Zones or major cities so they could show off their fashion show. Nothing new imo.
and what is wrong with that?
i remember back in the day standing around OG with full dragon stalker back then being "epic" actually meant soemthing i worked damn hard getting that set, after obtainin t1 ofc hell even the 0.5 set that you got from scholo , strat etc now in games liek wow you ding max lvl in a week and then get full epic in 1 day...sad sad times it took me 3 months just to get teh champion gear (never did get highwarlord)
this is soemthing teh noobs of today will never understand all they want is free epix without any effort
Originally posted by grimgryphon Originally posted by nariusseldon It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.
I played UO from day one and if you asked me to go back and play the "vanilla" game again, I'd tell you to drop dead. Same for EQ1.
Too many self-professed MMO vets still wearing those rose-colored glasses. Those games were not as great as we remember them. Really, they were not. The modern MMO is far superior, not only in graphics, but in gameplay.
Let the dead stay dead.
That's very naive to say that.
Those games are 10 y/o with a 10y/o technology and concept.
Of course no one would play EQ1 or UO today as they are.............
What the MMO industry has to do is to update those concepts to 2012 standards with better graphics, better UI, better gameplay (less grind)
And yes those 2 games have each a distinctive selling point which current MMOs do not have, therefore they could be NEW material for the WoW generation
Originally posted by ste2000 We just need more AAA Sandboxes...............there's never been one I think now it's the time.
SWG was a AAA sandbox title, and it was fantastic.
Originally posted by grimgryphon Originally posted by nariusseldon It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.
Except they're not dead, they have people still paying subs and they're still getting expansions, something a lot of modern Wow clones can't claim. Some of us like using our brains, working with other people in a social world, and being challenged by hard games, rather than plunking down and following the sparkling glowing arrow and watching numbers go up while we play by ourselves.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Actually most of them are doing quite well. Populations to match the majority of old games, turning profits, releasing expansions, getting updates. As with any industry there will be some that don't make it, and as there are more and more games there will be more companies that make it. But most of the games released in the last 7 years are doing pretty good.
Haha, are you kidding me? DDO was dead on arrival for the first 4 years of its life until it went FTP. AoC bankrupted two of Funcom's partners and they merged servers almost right away. Aion was a complete flop in the west. Rift merged servers within months of launch. SWTOR was met with a resounding "hate to say we told you so". TSW is already in trouble. DCUO and STO both had horrible launches and only started to recover when they went FTP.
And I think it's pretty generous to claim that any of those games had the same growing population numbers old MMOs had. And even if it were true, is it really an acomplishment that a brand new MMO has less/equal sub numbers of games that came out when most people didn't have video cards in their PCs and were on dial up?
Yes DDO and AoC did not do well
However SwTor sold almost 2 million units, pretty darn good. Yes they will be merging servers but we do not know how many people are currently playing.
Rift has done very well, definately making a profit, lots of people playing and funding another game.
LOTRO has done very well.
EQ2 has done very well.
Aion did not do well in the west but on the world market has done very well, one of the most played games in the world.
So yes most games have done quite well. Some haven't, some have.
Most games have just as high a population as SWG, Daoc and AC.
Growing population is a very good indication of success but is not the only one. Besides it really isn't realistic to expect a game to hold onto millions of subscribers, however they should be prepared for them.
Most of the games today have the same population as the old games. Not EQ good, but swg, daoc and ac good.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Actually most of them are doing quite well. Populations to match the majority of old games, turning profits, releasing expansions, getting updates. As with any industry there will be some that don't make it, and as there are more and more games there will be more companies that make it. But most of the games released in the last 7 years are doing pretty good.
However SwTor sold almost 2 million units, pretty darn good. Not for the insane 300 million budget for the game. If that was good enough they wouldn't have fired half the staff already. Yes they will be merging servers but we do not know how many people are currently playing. Not enough or EA wouldn't be pushing for FTP and the staff wouldn't have all been fired.
Rift has done very well, definately making a profit, lots of people playing and funding another game. And yet it too had to merge servers within the first couple of months and has since stopped growing.
LOTRO has done very well. The biggest IP in the entire world, and it limped along in that "yeah its kind of doing ok" state until it went FTP. The biggest IP. In. The. World. And its "doing ok". Not even better than many pre 2004 MMOs.
EQ2 has done very well. EQ2 wasn't a WoW clone.
So yes most games have done quite well. Some haven't, some have. Most haven't.
Most games have just as high a population as SWG, Daoc and AC. That's not a good thing, considering how large everyone claims the market is now, and how much more money modern MMos take to develop.
Growing population is a very good indication of success but is not the only one. It's been the primary marker since this genre existed. Once growth stops, decline sets in, and decline is not a recipe for the future. The best you can hope for is to stabalize. Modern MMOs aren't built to plant roots in and keep a steady community. They're built for people to burn through and leave. Besides it really isn't realistic to expect a game to hold onto millions of subscribers, however they should be prepared for them. If the game is good, people will stay. They're the ones who shot for the millions with their huge budget WoW clones. If they had a more modest budget and went for a smaller more dedicated crowd they would have done better. People who like WoW... play WoW. Those that don't, won't stick around long in clones like LotRO and SWTOR. .
Most of the games today have the same population as the old games. That's really, like I said, NOT a good thing. DAoC's 30 man team and budget of 1 million has the same subs as a game with 250 devs and a budget of 100 million?. Not EQ good, but swg, daoc and ac good.
The WoW model has been a thorough failure.
The WoW model has been very very very successful. But it may have runs its course.
We don’t know they did spend 300 million, that is just a number thrown out by the forums. The most common numbers thrown around are 100-200 million, but 300 million is spouted by people looking to exaggerate claims to make a false point.
The only thing we know is they spent a lot. And it probably wasn’t enough for them to keep the staff, however we dont’ know how many they actually have now.
Laying off staff after a project is done is actually very common.
Yes Rift did have to merge servers. However as I stated merging servers after selling millions of units is not unusual. Nor would it be realistic to believe they could keep that many units. Rift does have a healthy population and it is funding another game, it is successful.
Nothing about Lotro has limped along. It did very well before f2p and by all accounts is doing in better after f2p. Definately better than most pre 2004 MMO’s, not EQ or UO, but better than the others. In 2010 Lotro was reputed to be the 3rd most played MMO by the NDP group
EQ2 may not have started as a WoW clone but it went through a number of changes since then. Today it is as much a WoW clone as any of the others. Which means it isn't because the word is stupid. EQ2 has as much in common with WoW as those other games.
So yes most games have done well. You are just too full of hate to recognize it.
Yes growing populations are the primary marker, but several early games did not have continuously growing populations either, Daoc for one. Stable populations and profit are also strong indicatorsm and many/most have done that. It is not realistic to expect a game to sustain millions of subscribers. So the game will lose subs from the initial launch. Expecting anything else is just foolish. But not planning for a lot on launch is also foolish.
Originally posted by TCTC Rose colored glasses everywhere. The old MMORPG model would not do well with how players have changed since then. And most likely the genre would just cease to exist if they stoped being profitable.
The CURRENT MMORPG model does not do well either. Yet there are millions of veteran MMORPG gamers that KNOW what they like and haven't had a game that caters to them since Vanguard. Considering how well Vanguard sold in its first few weeks, despite the bad press of the horrible launch bugs, I'd say there's a STARVING marketing for classic MMORPGs.
I'd venture to say that almost every single aspect of Dark Age of Camelot circa 2002 is better than any modern MMORPG.
I can remember with clarity what I liked and disliked about both DAoC and WoW/all its clones, and I find many MANY more faults with WoW's design (built on the flawed EQ design, minus all the good parts of EQ) than DAoC's.
There is a bunch of crap in this thread. Gaming is about using your brain, solving puzzles, strategizing, risk and reward and reveling in the accompanying excitment. Virtually all MMORPG's in the last decade have lacked key components of those mentioned.
The EQ1-ShadowBane-Asherons Call1-Dark Age of Camelot era were the glory days. Everything post and including WoW has taken away from that combination that makes a good game and has handed it over into a massive money grab.
How do you get money? By giving people what they want. Most people don't want to be challenged, most people don't want to solve puzzles or strategize. They want to be spoon fed garbage as they vegitate. Hence that massive trite trash we have now called MMORPG's. You people call that progress? I call it a joke. The dumbing-down of society.
And your not wrong for that, you know what you like and what you don't, great. There are many people that don't like the current model, and maybe the current model has run it's course.
However IMO while there claim to be a lot of people that want a return to the old days, I don't think that many of them would actually support it, they like the idea more then the product, they like other factors such as their youth, their inexperience or the people they played who have also changed now, all of which were a not insignificant part of what made the game so good for them. I think it would do significantly worse than any of the new games. Lots of people would try it and then just like today there would be a massive player loss.
I think the initial launch would have less players than in many/most games today, and the end stable launch would have less players than many/most today.
Vanguard sold 242,000 copies in it's first few weeks (wikipedia claims anyway), not millions. I don't think there are milions of veteran MMORPG gamers that would even want to play a game, like the old style. Yes there are some.
Definately yes there are some that want some of those systems, but they want many of today's systems as well.
I'd venture to say that almost every single aspect of WoW, Lotro, EQ2, TSW, Rift and yes even Vanguard circa 2012 is better than MMORPG before 2004.
I can remember with clarity what I liked and disliked about both SWG, EQ and WoW/all its clones, and I find many MANY more faults with EQ's design than current WoW.
See what I did there. Express interest, likes, dislikes all you want. But lets not make any more claims other than our own opinion.
Gamers were never about about using your brain, solving puzzles, strategizing, risk and reward and reveling in the accompanying excitment. Some games had that, many others didn't. There was no real puzzle in final fantasy. Street fighter only had a few secret moves. There was no real reward or risk in Sonic the Hedge hog, or super mario brothers. They were just fun.
The golden years of MMO's are not past, they have not even begun. We had the first generation figuring out systems and what people liked, didn't like. Then the 2nd generation was probably a bit too similar (not not clones) too each other. Now we are starting to branch out again.
In the future there will be many many many types and styles of games. Sandbox and Themepark genres will just cease to exist. Trust me there will be far more opportunity to play as you like. The real golden years are yet to come.
I dont get you, OP. I mean you can still make indie games with low budget as the genre had before Wow.
Everquest had a budget of $8M, even if you count it into todays money it wouldnt be a huge sum. That mainstream games are being made does not stop people from making nished games.
It is like saying that you cant play metal or classical music because pop music earns more money.
Originally posted by Loke666 I dont get you, OP. I mean you can still make indie games with low budget as the genre had before Wow. Everquest had a budget of $8M, even if you count it into todays money it wouldnt be a huge sum. That mainstream games are being made does not stop people from making nished games. It is like saying that you cant play metal or classical music because pop music earns more money.
EQ had investors. It's hard to get investors for hardcore MMOs these days. And that 8M today would produce a very outdated looking game with poor animations, I'd wager.
Darkfall went 5 years before they found someone willing to loan them 600 thousand dollars. Each publisher said "Sure we'll give you money, if you add instances, safe zones, and add levels."
What I want to know is, who defines who is "really a fan"? I'm a 50 year old housewife who loved City of Heroes, never cared for WOW, and still enjoys LOTRO 5 years in. I'd say that qualifies me as a fan, but according to you, I'm not. Well, guess what? My money is worth just as much as yours, and the game companies are smart enough to see that. They understand that the hardcore gamers of 10-15 years ago are now (if they're not living in Mom's basement) out working a 40-50 hour week; when they have the time to game, they want to have fun, but be able to step away from the keyboard if the kids need them for a moment. There's nothing wrong with that; there's nothing wrong with wanting to mostly play solo because you know you can't commit to an hours-long raid. There is - or should be - room enough in the MMO world for all of us.
It's also ridiculous to expect the games to be designed without profit in mind. How do you think these companies are paying for the servers you play on, the devs who continue to improve upon the product? Without making the game accessible to a majority of players, without having spiffs and extras you can buy, there is not going to be enough cash flow to keep your beloved game alive.
So here's a suggestion for you: if you don't like the current gaming community, create one of your own. Start a kickstartr campaign to raise the startup costs for your own game, find a Dev who can create the world you envision, and then make it as exclusive a game as you wish.
If you don't want to do that, how about this: find a way to convince your game company of choice to allow people to rent private sub-servers. Pay the money to have exactly the kind of community you want. You win, the company wins - it's all good.
Originally posted by coyotewoman What I want to know is, who defines who is "really a fan"? I'm a 50 year old housewife who loved City of Heroes, never cared for WOW, and still enjoys LOTRO 5 years in. I'd say that qualifies me as a fan, but according to you, I'm not. Well, guess what? My money is worth just as much as yours, and the game companies are smart enough to see that. They understand that the hardcore gamers of 10-15 years ago are now (if they're not living in Mom's basement)
Stopped reading there...that joke is old. There seems to be a misconception here. Old MMOs do NOT = bigger time sink.
When we're discussing who the real fans are, we're discussing this.
There are those who liked MMORPGs when they were immersive vritual social worlds.
And there are those who liked MMORPG when the meaning became twisted to cover basic singleplayer focused online games. The latter group, by the very nature of the games they are fans of, usually don't stick around in MMOs very long, because those "MMOs" are designed to be burned through like a singleplayer game. Catering to them has led to the death of many a "MMO". But publishers keep on trying.
Originally posted by Adokas Right now, most games are made purely for profit which makes sense from a business perspective. It means that games suffer a bit, I guess. It's all subjective I think. It is a shame that developers don't really make games that they themselves would like to play anymore. But if I have to note some, then EVE and perhaps even Darkfall are great, because they stick to what they are, and don't try to cater to everyone. I don't think the genre needs to die, I just think people need to turn down their expectations, and also, developers should make the games they themselves would actually want to play. Sadly, that's just not how the world spins around anymore. Few developers have that power, to freely choose their own direction.
Devs do make games that they would play its called Indies games, to bad gamers won't support them because of them being different games like DFO, MO, Xsyon, Dawntide , Earthrise, and others.... I mean I'm a new Dev and become one because I want to makes games I would love , the problem is people today wany everything handed to them, and they want there hand held, I would never ever make a game for free because its alot of work to make a game and I need to pay off students loans that got me here and I need to live..
Gamers today wany everything for free alls I see is go F2P bleh, bleh, thats killing me because that does make the companys way more money in the end and it destorys most communitys, the cheaters come in and such... So its not all devs fault its alot to do with todays gamers. They want games like WOW wether they wanna admit it or not because look at how many subs they have, so that shows how many gamers like that game and those types...
There is a bunch group of us who are sick of them games, people like to jump on the band wagon and troll, but funny thing is WOW has million of subs and every one bashes it, I find that a bit odd...
You made the comment that you want more games made by gamers, will its happening , people need to support those people to because we are not rich either.. So if you do not support gamers who are making games, you won't see them, its tough buisness to get into it and do well so if you want different MMo,s then support indies ....
I know in school for game design they call me MR MMO, because no one like them in my school, but me, that tells me no new Devs have an interest in making them, the more I go to school , the more I make games, the more I hate them to and I been playing since MMo came out, with UO, merdian and such.. SO I know what it takes to make them its alot of work , but why should gamers make a game like that, so they can troll the game, and want it for free??? Nah..
I rather make Mobile games and smaller games because you won't deal with stuff like that and its way less work, and that is a main reason why, we won't see MMO's made by gamers, gamers need to grow up and give indies a little more respect and support......
PS: I laugh when people call hardcore gamers that they live in momma basements which is untrue.
I gamed before when I work 70hrs a week, I owned a 400k house , kids , wife etc, and ran a game community for 14 years, and gamed alot, so those comments make me laugh..
People think its hard to play some games and assume you play a million hours, most games are common sense and easy so to get certain things in a short time, its called looking stuff up, research etc, and knowing the game welll, I have heard people stupid comments that tells me there jealous is all....
Back in the old days a 50.000 playerbase was considerd a massive succes.Nowdays a mmo is considerd a failure if they dont sell more then 3 million copy's
Its quantity over qaulity these days.
WoW brought million of players into the market i give em that, but they also made mmo's mainstream, arcade like so to say.Altough Vanila wow was still a pretty brutal game, even TBC i consider hardcore.But WoTLK made WoW arcade and we all know what happend after WotLK.
Subs in EU / USA plummed each year, still respectable sales, but the easier they made WoW the more people run away from it.
At this moment i can only name 1 hardcore mmo out there, and that tittle goes to Eve Online.They should earn alot more respect that they are credited for tbh.I quited Eve online as i got bored of the way you fight.But i still have EPIC memory's and will still vote it as one of the best mmo ever created.But it doesnt have a 10 million playerbase so its a failure on the forums.Same as Guildwars 2, it dont sell 10 million boxes in week one and that why wow is better according to these baords.
Numbers mean evrything and nothing
Originally posted by Darkcrystal SWTOR was a success no matter what people think the game made money, if I owned it I would not be pissed because I would of made my money back and then some, so if you have a job or a buisness and made 100k for that year, you think you failed?? No...... If a company goes offline means they failed
So an MMO thats running for 15 years and then shuts down, is a failure?
You have a very VERY bad sense of how economics work. If SWTOR wasn't a failure, then how come they fired half the development staff, merged the servers, and are going FTP?
They have to leave the game open in a desperate hope to make back the 300 million it took to develop (and 100 million more to market)
Originally posted by rush1984 Before you jump the gun , im not saying they need to die completely what i beleive is that in order for mmorpgs to get back to the original state,for example UO , vannila wow etc i beleive the genre needs to die, it needs to die so badly that all those those players that aint really Fans get bored and leave it needs to die to the extent that only the true fans are left so that once again the games become games made for fans by fans of the genre. your probaly thinking whats a true fan? maybe im using the wrong choice of words so ill try to explain, back when mmorpgs were only played by us geeks (sorry to be blunt) the communitys was 10x better heck even 100x but with the success with wow it ultimately brought alot of players to the genre that woulnt have had given it a second glance previously. This imo is what destroyed the community its like a bunch of party crashers that refuse to leave and then make demands on the host to change the music..."think forums and whines for nerfs .. and "this is too hard" or "i dont have enough time in teh day to do this its not fair i want my free epics" I just feel these games aint made for "us" anymore So thats why i think this genre needs to die if only to be reborn and be for "us" once again
Maybe you should hire some company to program mmo just to your liking. :-) But what every company likes mainly is MONEY. And even if you would like to start riding again horses ... this will not happen. Cars are here to stay. And YOU would do the same.
And for me, 50, now is much much better. Ok, loved pacman once. That is history. I do not miss a lot from once.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Originally posted by rush1984 im not saying they need to die completely
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Lol. 'True fans'. The genre belongs to 'us'.
Sure, make the genre die because the OP doesn't like the current MMO's. And then the companies will start creating MMO's he likes again ofc (riiight) and all will be well. And that is not egoistic at all ofc
Misplaced sense of entitlement ftl.