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Do mmorpgs need to die? AKA MMORPG phoenix

rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 181Member Uncommon

Do MMORPGS NEED TO DIE?

what i believe is that in order for mmorpgs to get back to the original state,for example UO , vannila wow etc I believe the genre needs to die, it needs to die so badly that all those  players that ain't really Fans get bored and leave, I'm talking about those gamers that i feel mmorpgs cater towards these days those that burn through content like a single player game and then move on, cry for changes when they find something too hard or time consuming want everything handed to them on a plate.

It needs to die to the extent that only the true fans are left so that once again  the games become games made for fans by fans of the genre.

Your probably thinking what's a true fan? maybe I'm using the wrong choice of words so ill try to explain, back when mmorpgs were only played by the niche group of gamers  the communities were 10x better heck even 100x but with the success with wow it ultimately brought alot of players to the genre that wouldnt have had  given it a second glance previously. This imo is what destroyed the community its like a bunch of party crashers that refuse to leave and then make demands on the host to change the music..."think forums and whines for nerfs .. and "this is too hard" or "i dont have enough time in the day to do this its not fair i want my free epics"

Back in the day " ill use wow as an example" i had full t2 dragonstalker  and man did i feel bad ass, and yes i used to stand in og showing off lol but that is what mmorpgs were about bragging rights !, That set took me ages hell even my Giantstalker took ages once i had the full set i felt a real achievement , guy in my guild even achieved high warlord that took so much dedication i only reached champion but even that took me 3 months, before i was geared i used to inspect other players browse their gear and wish i had it , don't do that anymore who cares, whats the point in mmorpgs these days you can get geared in a couple days.. i mean what happened to cc? used to be called a dungeon crawl and now its dungeon zerg, requires no planning just run in 1 shot everything and retrieve free effortless loot..and this isnt just wow  either its like this for many "new" mmorpgs.. 

I just feel these games aint made for "us" anymore, 

 

I just wanted to quote something i said in reply as i thought it summed things up nicely 

"new mmorpgs are not representative of what  mmorpgs should be or was in their glory days

they are catered towards the new generations of gamers that like everything handed to them on a silver plater and easy mode gameplay.

so yes your right there is alot more people playing this genre  alot of "new fans" but mmorpgs have changed and because of that the "new fans" are fans of something completely different to what old school players were "fans" of"

So thats why i think this genre needs to die if only to be reborn and be for "us" once again the proverbial MMORPG phoenix

or maybe mmorpgs died years ago and what we have now is something else  and we are just waiting on that phoenix to be reborn...

 

 

 

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Comments

  • AlthewiseguyAlthewiseguy DumfriesPosts: 108Member

    I don't agree that the genre needs to die off. I do agree that games aren't made for the same crowd as they were a decade or two back. Now it's more about raking in cash rather than creativity. What you really need to shake things up are more imaginative developers willing to try new things. And developers of existing MMO's to branch out and further refine their games rather than reiterate the same old formula for gameplay.  

    As it is they are made to cater to the lowest common denominator. Which is sadly the kind of instant gratification crowd you mention in the OP.  Sadly you can't put the genie back in the bottle. You will likely always get themepark MMO's that are about making money rather than making engaging gameplay now there are people with vested interests making such games. 

  • DarSepkiDarSepki NotNeeded, IAPosts: 51Member

    MMORPG is no longer being used to describe a genre, it is a buzz word companies are using to for more sales. Pre-Wow, there were no 'mainstream' MMO. Now everybody knows them.

    MMOS do not need to die, usage of the buzzword does.

  • AdokasAdokas KristiansandPosts: 217Member

    Right now, most games are made purely for profit which makes sense from a business perspective. It means that games suffer a bit, I guess. It's all subjective I think.

    It is a shame that developers don't really make games that they themselves would like to play anymore. But if I have to note some, then EVE and perhaps even Darkfall are great, because they stick to what they are, and don't try to cater to everyone.

    I don't think the genre needs to die, I just think people need to turn down their expectations, and also, developers should make the games they themselves would actually want to play. Sadly, that's just not how the world spins around anymore. Few developers have that power, to freely choose their own direction.

  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Althewiseguy

    I don't agree that the genre needs to die off. I do agree that games aren't made for the same drowd as they were a decade or two back. Now it's more about raking in cash rather than creativity. What you really need to shake things up are more imaginative developers willing to try new things. And developers of existing MMO's to branch out and further refine their games rather than reiterate the same old formula for gameplay.  

    As it is they are made to cater to the lowest common denominator. Which is sadly the kind of instant gratification crowd you mention in the OP.  Sadly you can't put the genie back in the bottle. You will likely always get themepark MMO's that are about making money rather than making engaging gameplay now there are people with vested interests making such games. 

    i agree with you totaly , I know what im hoping for is unrealistic ,but at the same time I dont think mmorpgs will give us that feeling that every oldschool mmorpg fan is searching for, hoplessly hopping from one mmorpg to another. Until mmorpgs have become less popular and then after some years makes a triumphant return i dont think we will get that vanila feeling again.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    i have fond memories of older games ive played..but they werent better than todays offerings.

    i believe that the players are changing faster than the mmo's are.

    as you keep playing these games you need more and that is understandable. The problem is that players on the whole refuse to accept most of the mechanisms that would lead to great gameplay and instead there is a massive push to player efficiency and independance.

    your getting what you wanted. They have failed somewhat at giving you what you needed though. 

     

  • AlthewiseguyAlthewiseguy DumfriesPosts: 108Member
    Originally posted by rush1984
    Originally posted by Althewiseguy

    I don't agree that the genre needs to die off. I do agree that games aren't made for the same drowd as they were a decade or two back. Now it's more about raking in cash rather than creativity. What you really need to shake things up are more imaginative developers willing to try new things. And developers of existing MMO's to branch out and further refine their games rather than reiterate the same old formula for gameplay.  

    As it is they are made to cater to the lowest common denominator. Which is sadly the kind of instant gratification crowd you mention in the OP.  Sadly you can't put the genie back in the bottle. You will likely always get themepark MMO's that are about making money rather than making engaging gameplay now there are people with vested interests making such games. 

    i agree with you totaly , I know what im hoping for is unrealistic ,but at the same time I dont think mmorpgs will give us that feeling that every oldschool mmorpg fan is searching for, hoplessly hopping from one mmorpg to another. Until mmorpgs have become less popular and then after some years makes a triumphant return i dont think we will get that vanila feeling again.

    Well we can only hope players and programemrs of the future with the right vision on fresh MMO concepts can make games that aren't all about about marketing. I guess the best hope is another eve-like startup for a project. niche and catering to its specific idea. 

  • GoldenArrowGoldenArrow TurkuPosts: 1,187Member Uncommon
    FFXIV: A Realm Reborn.
  • Heinz130Heinz130 sao pauloPosts: 227Member

    I think mmorpg need to start  to develop titles so good has the genre itself permits

    Im talking about hundreds of millions of investment for 2 or 3 titles,or at last some huge projects like never seeing before

    Too much trash today

    WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
    FH1942 best tanker for 4years
    Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
    many other for some months

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon

    I agree that we really need a Dev with integrity that's prepared to make a game they feel is a solid game, with good mechanics that may well not appeal to the WoW crowd.

    If they're happy to retain 250-500k subs, more than enough to support a game, then they can stay on track and make a game worth playing. Themepark or sandbox, doesn't matter really, as long as it's a virtual world the players can inhabit and grow in, rather than some place to go find "stuff" they can brag about.

    The perfect example is EVE, indy studio when it released, steady population growth from 50-60k at launch to 300k or so now and all that time they've kept to their ideals of how the game should be. It's not for everyone but it has a very loyal following, gets plenty of added content (at no cost to the players) and still CCP have been able to put money into other games to develop.

    So no, the genre doesn't need to die. We just need devs to stop looking for that "WoW Killer" and make decent MMO's rather than yet another cash cow. I guess we just need to wait for another indy studio to repeat what CCP did, because no way will the big companies like EA, SOE, Blizz etc ever produce the kind of game I'm talking about.

    If anything needs to die it's the suits that have ruined the genre, not the genre itself.

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon
     
     
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

    I agree that we really need a Dev with integrity that's prepared to make a game they feel is a solid game, with good mechanics that may well not appeal to the WoW crowd.

    If they're happy to retain 250-500k subs, more than enough to support a game, then they can stay on track and make a game worth playing. Themepark or sandbox, doesn't matter really, as long as it's a virtual world the players can inhabit and grow in, rather than some place to go find "stuff" they can brag about.

    The perfect example is EVE, indy studio when it released, steady population growth from 50-60k at launch to 300k or so now and all that time they've kept to their ideals of how the game should be. It's not for everyone but it has a very loyal following, gets plenty of added content (at no cost to the players) and still CCP have been able to put money into other games to develop.

    So no, the genre doesn't need to die. We just need devs to stop looking for that "WoW Killer" and make decent MMO's rather than yet another cash cow. I guess we just need to wait for another indy studio to repeat what CCP did, because no way will the big companies like EA, SOE, Blizz etc ever produce the kind of game I'm talking about.

    If anything needs to die it's the suits that have ruined the genre, not the genre itself.

    I'm sorry but no, i have to address this...

    First and foremost both in Eve and EQ1 (the most popular MMO prior to WOW) a HUGE part of the games was finding "stuff" to brag about.  And before you try and argue that EVE isnt about that, keep in mind i have an account created back in 2005 that ive played off and on for years.  Yes, there are certain people in the game that like to grab frigates and just go blow each other out of the sky, but there are a crapton of people who are all about getting those high end modules on specialized versions of ships, etc.  I for example had a Navy issue raven with a bunch of things like pith x-type boosters, etc etc

    Now, on your other points about developer integrity and trying not to make WOW killers, etc.  I couldnt agree more.I think Trion is worth lookin at with Rift as thats exactly what they've done.

     

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILPosts: 1,710Member Uncommon

    The realistic answer is yes.  There comes a time in an MMOs life when it loses it's luster.  The technology used to run it becomes antiquated, the designers lose the spark of inspiration that started it all, and players move on to new horizons.  There are ways to postpone the process, but it will come to pass.

     

    However, like the mighty phoenix, the new arises from the old, and ...... ooops, reading a bit too much.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hrimnir
     
     
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

    I agree that we really need a Dev with integrity that's prepared to make a game they feel is a solid game, with good mechanics that may well not appeal to the WoW crowd.

    If they're happy to retain 250-500k subs, more than enough to support a game, then they can stay on track and make a game worth playing. Themepark or sandbox, doesn't matter really, as long as it's a virtual world the players can inhabit and grow in, rather than some place to go find "stuff" they can brag about.

    The perfect example is EVE, indy studio when it released, steady population growth from 50-60k at launch to 300k or so now and all that time they've kept to their ideals of how the game should be. It's not for everyone but it has a very loyal following, gets plenty of added content (at no cost to the players) and still CCP have been able to put money into other games to develop.

    So no, the genre doesn't need to die. We just need devs to stop looking for that "WoW Killer" and make decent MMO's rather than yet another cash cow. I guess we just need to wait for another indy studio to repeat what CCP did, because no way will the big companies like EA, SOE, Blizz etc ever produce the kind of game I'm talking about.

    If anything needs to die it's the suits that have ruined the genre, not the genre itself.

    I'm sorry but no, i have to address this...

    First and foremost both in Eve and EQ1 (the most popular MMO prior to WOW) a HUGE part of the games was finding "stuff" to brag about.  And before you try and argue that EVE isnt about that, keep in mind i have an account created back in 2005 that ive played off and on for years.  Yes, there are certain people in the game that like to grab frigates and just go blow each other out of the sky, but there are a crapton of people who are all about getting those high end modules on specialized versions of ships, etc.  I for example had a Navy issue raven with a bunch of things like pith x-type boosters, etc etc

    Now, on your other points about developer integrity and trying not to make WOW killers, etc.  I couldnt agree more.I think Trion is worth lookin at with Rift as thats exactly what they've done.

     

    I see what your saying and I agree with you. Perhaps I didn't say what I meant clearly. Let me rephrase it. The stuff is in the game but it's not the sole purpose for playing. The reason to play is more focused on being involved in that world/universe. Yes there's some nice stuff to be had, but it's not the be all and end all.

    I played both EQ and EVE from launch so I know exactly what you mean. But you can't deny that in EVE, for example, you can concentrate on playing the market to accumulate wealth, or researching and manufacturing, or mining, or a ton of other things, like flying frigates and blowing up other players, or looking for the very best modules you can find. Or you can join a big alliance and try and dominate 0.0 space, the choices are many and varied.

    Even in EQ, a very gear orientated game, I didn't feel overly pressured into getting the very best gear possible. It was more about taking part, at least for me it was. The fact that it was a true M MO, and by that I mean you weren't restricted to taking 25 people on a raid, allowed guilds to make up for a lack of gear by taking more players. As long as your MT and main healers were decently kitted out there was a lot more flexibility in where you could go and what you could achieve.

    Compare that to WoW where the only real reason to continue playing is to get the next tier of raid gear, or the next set of arena gear.

    I hope that makes more sense now and gets the point across more accurately.

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    I trust MMOs and MMORPGs aren't dying anytime soon.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member
    The old MMO'ers need to die instead.  My grandmother did not like talking movies either...said talkies had no soul.  Much like UO/EQ1 players she just could not move on.
  • defector1968defector1968 Nar ShaddaaPosts: 393Member Common
    u know are more players that like the today MMOs than how they were years ago (UO, chocolat wow, e.t.c.)
  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by defector1968
    u know are more players that like the today MMOs than how they were years ago (UO, chocolat wow, e.t.c.)

    ye thats the problem

    thats why the community sucks 

  • nakkinakki KauniainenPosts: 56Member

    Games needs to have either skill or risk factors to be entertaining and the newest mmorpgs have neither, only endless and meaningless grind.

  • asdarasdar Tequesta, FLPosts: 662Member Uncommon

    I've played from pre-tramel UO and all of EQ, and I agree that it's not as good, but I don't blame the new players at all, I blame the improvements. I wouldn't even go back even though I know it was more fun.

    1. Voice chat while better also is much worse.
    2. Cheat sites ruin so much, and while I don't use them someone in the group always does.
    3. Auction houses make trading a cold dead low-price affair

    I wouldn't go back on any.

    Back to the point I remember people in UO that were jerks, in EQ a friend I knew for 3 months stole a good sword of mine. I didn't even care about the sword, I'd have given it to him if he'd asked. I was on 3 or 4 raids where someone tried to ninja loot high end gear, to the point we started 'locking' the fallen mob and passing loot out later.

    It wasn't all good, people were jerks right from the beginning. I would say that the good people were better, and reputation meant something, I think because population was low enough that you could find out someones reputation and reject them from the guild.

    Asdar

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    "True fan, original stae, ain't really fans"

    The elitism is strong in this one.

    Which state is that?  I'm told meridian 59 was a themepark.  EQ was different from UO, different from DAOC, different from SWG and very different from early WoW.

    The community wasn't better then than it is now.  There were just as many jerks, whiners, griefers (percentage wise IMO) than as now.  The forums were just as whiny as now.  There were just as many cries for/against nerfs, for/against specific issues then as now.

    If the community was so much better SoE would not have had to implement the play nice policy AFTER EQ had been around for a while.  But they did, because people were jerks.

    Gamers were never made by fans for fans.  Games were always made by a developer group that thought they had a good idea that would make a profit.  They were then able to convince others that there idea had merit and voila, the game started to be build and the end product was probably very different from the initial product.

    edit - I don't feel any more pressure to get to end game, or get any particular gear in today's games than I did in old games. 

     

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • pkpkpkpkpkpk amherst, MAPosts: 85Member

    Amen... I agree completely.  

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rush1984

    Before you jump the gun , im not saying they need to die completely

    what i beleive is that in order for mmorpgs to get back to the original state,for example UO , vannila wow etc

    i beleive the genre needs to die, it needs to die so badly that all those those players that aint really Fans get bored and leave

    it needs to die to the extent that only the true fans are left so that once again  the games become games made for fans by fans of the genre.

    your probaly thinking whats a true fan? maybe im using the wrong choice of words so ill try to explain, back when mmorpgs were only played by us geeks (sorry to be blunt) the communitys was 10x better heck even 100x but with the success with wow it ultimately brought alot of players to the genre that woulnt have had  given it a second glance previously. This imo is what destroyed the community its like a bunch of party crashers that refuse to leave and then make demands on the host to change the music..."think forums and whines for nerfs .. and "this is too hard" or "i dont have enough time in teh day to do this its not fair i want my free epics"

    I just feel these games aint made for "us" anymore

    So thats why i think this genre needs to die if only to be reborn and be for "us" once again

     

     

     

    Do you understand that this genre has created allot of "new fans?"

     

    Do you understand that while you say the community was 10x or even 100 times better that the community is also 10x or even 100 times bigger today?

    I do not want this genre to die because this genre has generated so many new "true fans"

    Yes I am a hugh fan of the old, still SWG is to me the best MMORPG I have ever played, yes I wished that MMORPG would evolve beyond that and go even deeper. I want my MMORPG to be akin to a virtual world where it's both combat and none-combat.

    But that doesn't mean I do not want all those other games around me that I might dislike, cause regardless my dislike those other games are played and enjoyed by thousands if not millions of other now new fans.

    But I do believe there is room for several different type of MMORPG's and hopefully one day we will see a more virtual world type of MMORPG

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member

    Yes. I had a big thing typed but it went away so I'll just say. Yes.

     

    Either MMos need to die or people need to stop calling games that CLEARLY aren't MMOs, MMOs.

    We need to get back to the passionate devs who made good games before publishers invaded in WoW and its clones.

  • rush1984rush1984 essexPosts: 181Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by rush1984

    Before you jump the gun , im not saying they need to die completely

    what i beleive is that in order for mmorpgs to get back to the original state,for example UO , vannila wow etc

    i beleive the genre needs to die, it needs to die so badly that all those those players that aint really Fans get bored and leave

    it needs to die to the extent that only the true fans are left so that once again  the games become games made for fans by fans of the genre.

    your probaly thinking whats a true fan? maybe im using the wrong choice of words so ill try to explain, back when mmorpgs were only played by us geeks (sorry to be blunt) the communitys was 10x better heck even 100x but with the success with wow it ultimately brought alot of players to the genre that woulnt have had  given it a second glance previously. This imo is what destroyed the community its like a bunch of party crashers that refuse to leave and then make demands on the host to change the music..."think forums and whines for nerfs .. and "this is too hard" or "i dont have enough time in teh day to do this its not fair i want my free epics"

    I just feel these games aint made for "us" anymore

    So thats why i think this genre needs to die if only to be reborn and be for "us" once again

     

     

     

    Do you understand that this genre has created allot of "new fans?"

     

    Do you understand that while you say the community was 10x or even 100 times better that the community is also 10x or even 100 times bigger today?

    I do not want this genre to die because this genre has generated so many new "true fans"

    Yes I am a hugh fan of the old, still SWG is to me the best MMORPG I have ever played, yes I wished that MMORPG would evolve beyond that and go even deeper. I want my MMORPG to be akin to a virtual world where it's both combat and none-combat.

    But that doesn't mean I do not want all those other games around me that I might dislike, cause regardless my dislike those other games are played and enjoyed by thousands if not millions of other now new fans.

    But I do believe there is room for several different type of MMORPG's and hopefully one day we will see a more virtual world type of MMORPG

    new mmorpgs are not representative of what  mmorpgs should be or was in their glory days

    they are catered towards the new generations of gamers that like everything handed to them on a silver plater and easy mode gameplay.

    so yes your right there is alot more people playing this genre  alot of "new fans" but mmorpgs have changed and because of that the "new fans" are fans of something completely different to what old school players were "fans" of

     

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    MMORPGs got killed of about six years ago and got replaced with MMO's for the solo gamer, about two years ago MMO's were shot dead by the casual crowd and now we have easyMMO's or ezMMO's. Each time the gaming houses have looked and then designed for a bigger playerbase, each time that new playerbase has decided they don't want to play a "MMO" after two or three months.

    They are getting a ROI for games at launch, but long term (that is over the 3 month period) income is a pittance of what they could get before.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,930Member Uncommon

    The genre is more popular than ever.  Just look at the sales figures on SWTOR and GW2.  It's jsut the devs not creating compelling endgame that causes their rapid population losses.

     

    The problem is that MMOs are so complicated and expensive.  It's much harder/riskier to innovate and stand out.

     

    From what I've heard. it sounds like Rift is the only MMO to target vanilla WOW lovers, but I may be wrong on that.  The problem is that almost no one got to experience Naxx in vanilla and that's a pretty small crowd to cater to.

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