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I apoligize WoW fans.

ZecktorinZecktorin Bloomingdale, MIPosts: 231Member

My last post with the video may have caused some unwanted arguing about hardcore vs casuals. This is not what I intended to happen.

I'll start off first by saying that casuals do deserve to see the content too, but don't you think its fair to more hardcore players to expereince the challenge they want as well? Casuals complain its not fair because they don't to see as much, but how is it fair that hardcore players don't have any challenge left?

it's as simple as that.... it works both ways. I did not have a problem with lich king at all it made the game easier but still kept a pretty decent diffculty. I was willing to sacrifice some challenege so that casuals could see more content and it was nice for you guys to be able to raid with me. However WoW today is even easier and even casuals are running out of things to do. Again its kool that you wana see content, and a lot of us more hardcore players were willing to sacrifice a little, but in turn you casuals need to sacrifice a little and allow the game to be a little more difficult.  I personally miss the days of TBC, but I also miss Lich King the diffuclty was just right for hardcore and casual players to be able to meet in the middle, but people still just wanted easier still.

All this argument "I don't have time" or "it feels like a job"..... This is a MMO people. It's ment to take time and effort to advance in. Thats the purpose of it.

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Comments

  • azrael466azrael466 hillsboro, ORPosts: 365Member
    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    My last post with the video may have caused some unwanted arguing about hardcore vs casuals. This is not what I intended to happen.

    I'll start off first by saying that casuals do deserve to see the content too, but don't you think its fair to more hardcore players to expereince the challenge they want as well? Casuals complain its not fair because they don't to see as much, but how is it fair that hardcore players don't have any challenge left?

    it's as simple as that.... it works both ways. I did not have a problem with lich king at all it made the game easier but still kept a pretty decent diffculty. I was willing to sacrifice some challenege so that casuals could see more content and it was nice for you guys to be able to raid with me. However WoW today is even easier and even casuals are running out of things to do. Again its kool that you wana see content, and a lot of us more hardcore players were willing to sacrifice a little, but in turn you casuals need to sacrifice a little and allow the game to be a little more difficult.  I personally miss the days of TBC, but I also miss Lich King the diffuclty was just right for hardcore and casual players to be able to meet in the middle, but people still just wanted easier still.

    All this argument "I don't have time" or "it feels like a job"..... This is a MMO people. It's ment to take time and effort to advance in. Thats the purpose of it.

    How many 'hardcores' whining about not having a challange actually do, say, hardmodes? or the new challange modes(which scales gear, so you can't outgear it, ever)?

    MOST hardcores...Again, MOST, not all, so don't come here bitching about "well, I dont do that blah blah blah" because that just means you're outside the most I'm talking about...DON'T want a challange, they want to be special little fucking snowflakes and keep other people out of 'their' raids.

    Playing
    Nothing
    waiting for
    The secret world
    Played
    WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    I liked your last video and everything you said was worth saying.  For a long time I have believed that the tougher things are, it drives people together. This as true in life as it is a game. Great communities are built by challenging times. 
  • grapevinegrapevine PeterboroughPosts: 1,927Member
    Pointless thread, as Cata is no longer the current game.  MoP end game is closer to TBC.  Raids are gated on progression again, and the rep grind is back.
  • marikurmarikur LondonPosts: 2Member

    Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

    But yes I agreee things are too easy... vanilla was restrictive almost as restrictive as EQ1 for the casuals and TBC... Lich King was good for those of us who have families, jobs that require more attention than a game... I left at Cata.... what can I say I just found it same old same old.... and can't comment on MoP.

    I agree Lich King was a nice balance... so even casuals could get to Arthas in 10 man normal mode with some effort.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by marikur

    Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

    But yes I agreee things are too easy... vanilla was restrictive almost as restrictive as EQ1 for the casuals and TBC... Lich King was good for those of us who have families, jobs that require more attention than a game... I left at Cata.... what can I say I just found it same old same old.... and can't comment on MoP.

    I agree Lich King was a nice balance... so even casuals could get to Arthas in 10 man normal mode with some effort.

    The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 

  • RednecksithRednecksith Madison heights, MIPosts: 1,238Member

    See, I think Blizzard really screwed up when they designed the current progression model. Currently, it goes: Regular Dungeons -> Heroic Dungeons -> Regular Raids -> Hardmode Raids.

    How progression should be is: Regular Dungeons -> Regular Raids -> Heroic Dungeons -> Hardmode Raids.

    This way more casual people can see all the really cool story-related raid content & get some halfway decent / cool looking gear (obviously different from what the hardmode offers), whereas the hardcore raiders can still push through all the 'easy stuff' very quickly to get to the challenging content they so desire. Everybody wins!

    Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't usually listen to sensible ideas, so...

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Badaboom
    The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 
    The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.


    Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them.


    If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member
    Question do most player play for personal achievement or for social recognition of achievement?
  • BizkitNLBizkitNL NetherlandsPosts: 2,280Member Common
    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    All this argument "I don't have time" or "it feels like a job"..... This is a MMO people. It's ment to take time and effort to advance in. Thats the purpose of it.

    That's putting it way too simple. Why can't we be challenged in say....1 to 2 hours of gameplay? I mean, that what I see a lot of casual people complain about. Why does it always have to be 3+ hours? That doesn't cater to hardcores, that caters to no-lifers.

    10
  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Badaboom
    The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 

    The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.

     


    Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them.


    If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.

    Yes that is correct, they get more short term players but lose long term playability.  However, it is more expensive to get new players than to retain old ones.  With their payment model, player retention is king. 

  • ShadoedShadoed BirminghamPosts: 1,499Member Common
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.

     


    Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them.


    If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.

    The stats on the video point out that less than 1% of the playerbase back in Vanilla defeated a main boss, how is that a 'vast majority' of the players?

    The subs contnued on an upward trend through Cata so there is less and less evidence that the simplification of raiding caused any major impact on the playerbase as much as just the game getting old for some did, although it would seem that Blizzard have realised that they need to do something to bring some of the old base back hence the new modes, world bosses (so many group calls going out just like the old days for these) and emphasis on PvP.

    It is a difficult thing to strike a balance between the 'hardcore' and casual and a game maker will listen to it's majority player base as seen here and if you are looking for an example of where the hardcore rules then EvE is the classic one.

    It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by marikur

    Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

    It depends upon what that business wanted to do.

    If it was me? I would figure out how to make something that was viable for the 1%.

    Otherwise what you are proposing is that the more whitewashed and accessible something is the better. If we always catered to the majority then we wouldn't have some amazing things in this world.

    This is not to say that the majority is inferior because they don't like esoteric or very "pointed/particular" content (whether that be movies, games, music, tv "whatever") but there is a lot out there that is very unique that would never be made if it was up to catering to a majority.

    There are businesses that cater to specific tastes. Look at EVE. They recognize the need to make their game more accessible but there is a difference between making something more accessible and completely changing what it is.

     

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Zecktorin

    My last post with the video may have caused some unwanted arguing about hardcore vs casuals. This is not what I intended to happen.

    I'll start off first by saying that casuals do deserve to see the content too, but don't you think its fair to more hardcore players to expereince the challenge they want as well? Casuals complain its not fair because they don't to see as much, but how is it fair that hardcore players don't have any challenge left?

    it's as simple as that.... it works both ways. I did not have a problem with lich king at all it made the game easier but still kept a pretty decent diffculty. I was willing to sacrifice some challenege so that casuals could see more content and it was nice for you guys to be able to raid with me. However WoW today is even easier and even casuals are running out of things to do. Again its kool that you wana see content, and a lot of us more hardcore players were willing to sacrifice a little, but in turn you casuals need to sacrifice a little and allow the game to be a little more difficult.  I personally miss the days of TBC, but I also miss Lich King the diffuclty was just right for hardcore and casual players to be able to meet in the middle, but people still just wanted easier still.

    All this argument "I don't have time" or "it feels like a job"..... This is a MMO people. It's ment to take time and effort to advance in. Thats the purpose of it.

    Hardcores dont deserve anything a casual deserves.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    I'm not sure why you are apologizing.  Your view is valid but in the extreme minority.
  • GhernGhern Shingle Springs, CAPosts: 134Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by marikur

    Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

    But yes I agreee things are too easy... vanilla was restrictive almost as restrictive as EQ1 for the casuals and TBC... Lich King was good for those of us who have families, jobs that require more attention than a game... I left at Cata.... what can I say I just found it same old same old.... and can't comment on MoP.

    I agree Lich King was a nice balance... so even casuals could get to Arthas in 10 man normal mode with some effort.

    I do not understand this sentiment.

    WoW had its greatest growth during vanilla and TBC. This was a time when WoW was at it's most difficult.

    I know it hit its peak subscriber base during Wrath but on a percentage basis it did not add subs like TBC did.

    Ever since the middle of Wrath it has been slowly bleeding subs.

    Three months from now, after expansion hype I am willing to bet we see numbers slide again.

    I'm sorry. I just don't buy the whole 99% vs 1% argument.

    Just my opinion.

     

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Who are these hardcore WoW fans people keep talking about? WoW is not a hardcore game, so why get upset about WoW appealing to the casuals, who have always been the primary audience of the game? Anyone seeking challenge wouldn't play WoW.
  • ZadawnZadawn SPosts: 651Member

    To all the poeple complaining that hey have a life and a family to take care of etc just don't play mmorpgs?As the op said mmorpgs are ment to take time.

    For those of you who want everything on a plate in 1 hour of gaming take on a miniclip game.

    image
  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Half hearted apology is half hearted.  And passive aggressive.

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

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  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    i completely agree that casuals should be able to experience abour 70% of content. the other 20% should be for large, organized and hard core players and 5 to 10% should be only for the elite players.

    there should always be a small part of the game that is incredibly difficult otherwise there is nothing to look forward to (much like GW2) and there is only gear grind. a game that poses no more challenges becomes a boring game.

     

     

     

     

  • AusareAusare adamstown, MDPosts: 850Member
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper

    i completely agree that casuals should be able to experience abour 70% of content. the other 20% should be for large, organized and hard core players and 5 to 10% should be only for the elite players.

    there should always be a small part of the game that is incredibly difficult otherwise there is nothing to look forward to (much like GW2) and there is only gear grind. a game that poses no more challenges becomes a boring game.

     

     

     

     

    I think the issue is how you create the challenge.  Not that a challenge should exist.

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,601Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Xiaoki   Originally posted by Badaboom The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 
    The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.   Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them. If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.
    Yes that is correct, they get more short term players but lose long term playability.  However, it is more expensive to get new players than to retain old ones.  With their payment model, player retention is king. 

    Yes, retention is king and WoW has retained over 9 million subscribers for 5 years.


    So, yeah.



    Originally posted by Shadoed
    The stats on the video point out that less than 1% of the playerbase back in Vanilla defeated a main boss, how is that a 'vast majority' of the players?
    Nearly all of WoWs PvE updates in Vanilla and TBC were progressive endgame raids. Which means they were updating the game in favor of the 1% hardcore players and ignoring the 99% casual players.
  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Badaboom

    Originally posted by Xiaoki  

    Originally posted by Badaboom The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 
    The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.   Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them. If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.
    Yes that is correct, they get more short term players but lose long term playability.  However, it is more expensive to get new players than to retain old ones.  With their payment model, player retention is king. 
    Yes, retention is king and WoW has retained over 9 million subscribers for 5 years.

     


    So, yeah.

     


    Originally posted by Shadoed
    The stats on the video point out that less than 1% of the playerbase back in Vanilla defeated a main boss, how is that a 'vast majority' of the players?

    Nearly all of WoWs PvE updates in Vanilla and TBC were progressive endgame raids. Which means they were updating the game in favor of the 1% hardcore players and ignoring the 99% casual players.

     

    Yes, but the philosophy is changing and their sub numbers are dropping.  Although it could be argued that it is an old game with many other gaming options out there, I still think that OP hit on some truth. 

  • marikurmarikur LondonPosts: 2Member
    Originally posted by Ghern
    Originally posted by marikur

    Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

    But yes I agreee things are too easy... vanilla was restrictive almost as restrictive as EQ1 for the casuals and TBC... Lich King was good for those of us who have families, jobs that require more attention than a game... I left at Cata.... what can I say I just found it same old same old.... and can't comment on MoP.

    I agree Lich King was a nice balance... so even casuals could get to Arthas in 10 man normal mode with some effort.

    I do not understand this sentiment.

    WoW had its greatest growth during vanilla and TBC. This was a time when WoW was at it's most difficult.

    I know it hit its peak subscriber base during Wrath but on a percentage basis it did not add subs like TBC did.

    Ever since the middle of Wrath it has been slowly bleeding subs.

    Three months from now, after expansion hype I am willing to bet we see numbers slide again.

    I'm sorry. I just don't buy the whole 99% vs 1% argument.

    Just my opinion.

     

    Again my opinion for the upward trend is that Blizzard are experts at making the game accessible, the initial influx of players were from older MMO's who loved the leveling curve, anyone who levelled a character in EQ1 will tell how much of a chore that was.

    However difficult WOW was during Vanilla and TBC doesn't compare to the 80 man raids of EQ1 days (my opinion :))  this alone I believe encouraged people to stay.

    Like everything people grow up and over time other priorities take over no matter how much you want to raid you just cannot spare the time. I think Bliz were great at spotting things like that, have you noticed raid times coming down over the years... 6 hour raids coming down to 2 hour raids,  different dungeon/raid modes, badges to get gear rather than wait for that piece of gear to drop and you having enough DKP to bid for it, this is the kind of thing Bliz has done to make the game more accessible for the masses.

    I think all we are seeing is with the subs going down is that a lot of long term players are just not as invested as they once were, they wait for expansions to get that new feeling back again, get back on the treadmill and then step off once they have had their fun and wait again for new content. I don't believe for one moment the subs are going down because the raids are easier.

     

  • GhernGhern Shingle Springs, CAPosts: 134Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ausare
    Originally posted by Jakdstripper

    i completely agree that casuals should be able to experience abour 70% of content. the other 20% should be for large, organized and hard core players and 5 to 10% should be only for the elite players.

    there should always be a small part of the game that is incredibly difficult otherwise there is nothing to look forward to (much like GW2) and there is only gear grind. a game that poses no more challenges becomes a boring game.

     

     

     

     

    I think the issue is how you create the challenge.  Not that a challenge should exist.

    Blizzard has created its own problem now. They made the game so easy that if they try and make 20% or so for only the really hard core many people will whine and claim it isn't fair. After all they pay their $15 just like the hardcore players do.

    I am going to make a political analogy. I do not want a political discussion.

    It's like a government giving out an entitlement. Once the people get used to having something for free it is nearly impossible for them to roll it back.

    Same goes for WoW. They tried to make it more difficult at the beginning of Cata and look what happened. Although that was poorly implemented.

    Blizzard cannot make it to difficult or make content only available to the harder core players. Way too many people would complain because they are used to the easy mode WoW.

    Instead they make the same content harder  which in my opinion is lame. You have already seen the content and they just add gimmicky game mechanics to up the difficulty.

     

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by Badaboom

    Originally posted by Xiaoki  

    Originally posted by Badaboom The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 
    The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.   Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them. If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.
    Yes that is correct, they get more short term players but lose long term playability.  However, it is more expensive to get new players than to retain old ones.  With their payment model, player retention is king. 
    Yes, retention is king and WoW has retained over 9 million subscribers for 5 years.

     


    So, yeah.

     


    Originally posted by Shadoed
    The stats on the video point out that less than 1% of the playerbase back in Vanilla defeated a main boss, how is that a 'vast majority' of the players?

    Nearly all of WoWs PvE updates in Vanilla and TBC were progressive endgame raids. Which means they were updating the game in favor of the 1% hardcore players and ignoring the 99% casual players.

     

    Yes, but the philosophy is changing and their sub numbers are dropping.  Although it could be argued that it is an old game with many other gaming options out there, I still think that OP hit on some truth. 

    Funny thing is, WoW was at is peak with its player base during WOTLK, which many of these so called "hardcore" types claim is the height of the easy, casual content.  When Blizzard upped the difficulty at the beginning of Cata, THATS when they started to lose a lot of players very quickly.   But yes, it is an older game which means it will naturally lose players anyway.

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