It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by aesperus you ever find yourself on Fort Aspenwood feel free to send me a PM and I can show you what I'm talking about first hand.
i seen this posted several times you know you don't have to be on the same server to run dungeons with people..
also you say it's similar to other themeparks yet I haven't found that the case.. yes in other themeparks knowing the dungeon made it easier but not knowing it many times it was still easy as long as you had a semi decent healer/tank. I went through every dungeon in Rift on normal mode without completely wiping a single time and many all of us it was our first time. Trinity based games generally have the luxury of just needing a decent tank/healer can get you through many of the regular dungeons no problem. With GW2 this isn't the case and not to mention mobs hit freakin hard as well compared to other games top that with having no real tank class to pull and hold mobs it makes it much harder to predict where mobs will go.
I'm aware of this.
I don't know if they've ever fixed this, but I have had problems with cross-server groups in the past. Sometimes a 2nd instance ends up being created when there's no overflow, and it's a huge pain in the arse to fix. Still, I'm not opposed to giving it a shot, feel free to PM me.
As to the part in red.
I also played Rift for a while. Great game. When I say the experience is somewhat similar to other MMOs, what I mean with this is, like in Rift (as well as most MMOs with dungeons); the majority of the challenge comes in learning the fights. There is some skill involved in positioning / knowing how to dodge which is integrated into the game on a base lvl. However, with a little bit of practice that gets easier and easier.
I dunno if you've done any of the raids in Rift, or some of the endgame dungeons, but they also have dungeons in which you need to know how to dodge certain attacks / AoE to avoid getting killed. It's a bit easier than GW2's dungeons, for sure, but it's not much different.
A good example of this would be CM asura path. There's a few encounters in there that just overload you with ranged attacks (and it's annoying as hell to deal w/). However, you can easily counter this by using skills that reflect projectile (which effectively takes the enemy's advantage and turns it against them). Furthermore, there's a boss in there that people get VERY frustrated with. He spams chill all over the place, and tends to burn you down when you're chilled, and out of endurance. I even sat on that fight for a while, trying to think about ways to deal w/ it. In the end the answer's very simple: Bring AoE condition removal, projectile reflection (if you have it), cripple / chill, and if you have the buff vigor helps a lot (lets you dodge more). If anyone in the group starts to have trouble, they can run into the water to drop aggro.
- Don't missunderstand, I'm not saying people don't die in my groups. People do. And I never promise that people won't die. I can't promise that. So much of a person's survivability in this game is dependant on their own actions. There are things I can do to try and keep a person alive (group heals, fearbombs, stunning / knocking back an enemy off an ally, kiting mobs away from a downed player trying to rally, etc.) However it's impossible to 100% guaruntee a person won't ever die. It's a part of the game. What you can do is guaruntee a full clear, and promise to do whatever you can to revive someone quickly if they do go down.
Originally posted by Aerowyn imho game really needs some sort of way to save a few builds that you can swap between.. i'm guilty of doing this myself but many times I get invited to a dungeon I don't feel like going to a trainer, re-doing my traits and gear to get setup for the dungeon.. think this would go a long way for dungeons overall
That would be AMAZING.
I've been guilty of trying to hot-swap builds on the fly and missing a key trait or skill before an engagement begins. GW1 had this feature, and I can't understand why Anet wouldn't carry it over into this game.
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by eggy08 Originally posted by aesperus **SNIP**
Ya... Good luck finding random people to do that constantly. Honestly, I got to ask where you looked for them? In your guild maybe? Since I have yet to find a single competent random in my group since I've started. Literally me and my friend carrying the instance and the only ones surviving on our mains.
Again, not sure how you expect this from a pug. People will do what they want, roll the buffs they want and not care about the group 90% of the time.
Not saying that any explorer mode is not pugable, it can be, but good luck finding that perfect group when your by yourself looking. It's almost impossible since people expect that zerg rezzing is the only solution, instead of mitigating damage. That and builds of people who solely PvP or PvE in the world tend to be very squishy and not able to really help each other out, since they don't care about the team, they care about themselves.
The only reason she had trouble was due to 2 factors:
1. Not experiencing much in dungeons before, and obviously not that instance. Thus the fights were hard.
2. The 2 pugs we got were on the ground 90% of the fight and then one ended up rage quitting (the one who was dumb enough made it explorer mode in the first place when we wanted to just do story) since he died every single pull.
It's not far too uncommon to find a single reliable person in the group unless they are your friends or guildies.
Honestly, when PUGing it's usually different people each time. The people I run w/ consistantly are usually people from one of the various guilds I ended up joining. That said, when I do end up forming PUGs with people I enjoy playing with, it's not uncommon for us to friend each other, and end up grouping again at a later time. Perhaps the biggest problem I've had recently with PUGs is that many are now scared to run dungeons, because they've either had a bad experience, or people are running around screaming how impossible dungeons are (which isn't true).
When dungeon running I do tend to ask guildies first, but there are pleanty of times when they either already have full groups, or just aren't up for a run atm, and so I turn to /map chat.
Basically before I enter a dungeon I talk to the members in /party chat. I ask them how they're doing, what builds they're running, etc. If they seem nervous about that, I'll emphasize that I'm just curious about what people are running with & I like to know what types of settings we're working with. Basically it just comes down to getting a feel for who I'm grouping with. If someone seems sketchy, or too big of a dick, I may end up dropping them and trying to find someone a bit more pleasant to group with. Obviously during less peak hours I'll be a lot more lenient about who I group with.
In general though, I don't really care about who I end up grouping with, as long as they don't seem like dicks and they don't seem like they are overly stupid (nothing is worse than someone who tries to leeroy these dungeons and then rages when he aggros multiple groups at once). There are typically 2 big red flags I look for. 1) People who are specced ultra glass cannon & don't have any ability to increase their health pool to a reasonable lvl. 2) People who aren't responsive / seem unwilling to play as part of a group. By avoiding those 2 things I tend to have much better success in dungeons. People don't get downed as often, and they are more likely to listen when I need to explain a boss fight. They also tend to be more patient & thus less likely to rage quit if a fight goes poorly.
- Probably the largest misconception when going into these dungeons is that you need a perfect group in order to clear them. I've done so many runs that I've cleared these dungeons with most class combinations. I've done 5 necro groups, 5 warrior groups, 5 elementalist groups, 4 mesmer / 1 necro, 3 ele, 1 ranger, 1 thief.. etc. etc. etc.
Honestly the class combinations don't matter as much. This isn't to say that a more diverse class combination isn't stronger, but I have yet to see a class setup that can't clear these dungeons (and I was shocked when I managed to pull it off w/ 5 eles). Some class combinations are easier for various dungeons, but what it really comes down to is how well you know the fights, and that you make sure everyone in the group understands what's going to happen. People aren't completely locked into builds in this game. If a fight seems unusually hard, think about what you're facing, & what skills might be able to deal w/ such an encounter. Have a hall full of traps you don't think you can avoid? Maybe someone can use invulnerability + speed to rush passed them and turn them off. Have a huge group of adds you need to burn down, but not much defense? See if you can throw some AoE into your mix, maybe some AoE blind (thief, or ele in earth attunement + glyph of storms).
So much of the difficulty of these dungeons comes down to how good your understanding of the fights & your skills are. Once you obtain that understanding, a lot of the difficulty for these vanishes. People may still get downed, or die, but it won't be happening nearly as often (and in some cases, it may not happen at all). Hell, I still die or get downed on occassion during these fights. I'm still trying to get better about not over-commiting to resses & not dodging quick enough as a result. However, dying is a part of the game, and I rarely ever fail to clear a dungeon / leave with less than I went in with.
Problem is you use the word PUGs. Its almost impossible to get said skills out of a PUG. I'm not going to bother wasting my time asking spec or making sure that everyone has the spec I think they should go, because its not my place to tell them how to play. Nor is this game meant to be played so that everyone is supposed to run specific builds and I'm not going to waste an hour forming a group like in trinity MMOs to find that specific group that fits perfectly, specially since I've seen plenty of people who have run certain instances many times, yet still do no get the concept of the fights.
All I'm saying is that you can;t just plow throu non farmable explorer modes with a PUG group. It will smack you in the face over 70% of the time. You might be able to clear it, but it won't be a faceroll, nor should it be. Every other game as long as you had the specific classes you needed, the dungeons were face roll. Now I say specific classes, since they required it. Story mode shouldn't in this game, and it honestly doesn't. Explorer mode should to a point, but still is up and down. This game just requires more coordination and skill on the players side to not make mistakes, which is not very widely known in random PUGs.
If it was guildies, I would be fine to talk to them about those things, but I'm not hounding on every random PUG and basically asking spec/GS, then kicking them if it doesn't please me.
This would be such a huge help in so many ways. Not only do I run to the trainer to reset my traits depending on the dungeon I'm going to but I also change Major Traits and Utility Skills and Weapons for specific encounters.
My Guardian GS build doubles as my Spirit Weapon build, my pre 1 handed crit build doubles as my Staff buff and kite build lol.
I hate having to build so that I can switch between two or three roles mid dungeon
Originally posted by GrayGhost79 Originally posted by Aerowyn imho game really needs some sort of way to save a few builds that you can swap between.. i'm guilty of doing this myself but many times I get invited to a dungeon I don't feel like going to a trainer, re-doing my traits and gear to get setup for the dungeon.. think this would go a long way for dungeons overall
yea seriously it's one of my top issues with the game and since they did have it in GW1 really can't see why it wasn't planned from the start for GW2
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by eggy08 Originally posted by aesperus So much missinformation.. all I'll say is this: All dungeons are very PUGable. The trick is to make sure people are paying attention, people are listening to the groupl leader, and knowing the mechanics so you can explain them to the rest of the group. Most PUGs, just making sure these 3 conditions are met is more than enough for success. I see people claiming build X or build Y is required, but it's really all BS. Having some variety definitely helps, but it really comes down to knowing the fights, and using what's available to deal w/ that. All classes have numerous skills to deal w/ a wide variety of situations. This is why when I run dungeons I rarely ever favor 1 class or another, and instead focus mostly on getting players who don't play foolishly. Which is how I think these games should be anyway. As a few have said in this thread, most of the dungeons (AC included) really aren't that difficult. The challenge comes in the first few runs, when you don't know what to expect or how to deal w/ it. Once you figure that out the dungeons become fairly easy. AC actually turns into one of the easier dungeons once you understand the mechanics. It is a really fun dungeon, though. It has some really fast explorable runs, and some fairly interesting mechanics as well.
I've learned the best way to manage pugs is to not verbally lead them unless it's for a specific encounter like the lovers in AC story. Most pugs are eager to follow but for some reason verbally leading doesn't seem to be the way to do it.
Go in and call the targets, you will notice that they simply start attacking the targets you call. Lead by example, throw down combo fields and use them yourself, buff party members, use their combo fields and all of a sudden they will start following suite without asking why or needing to be told. It's weird, but this is how my pugs go. I silently lead and it works lol...
Originally posted by eggy08 Originally posted by aesperus *snip*
PUG still means Pick Up Group, does it not? It means you are picking up random strangers in order to complete some content.
It doesn't mean you do so with no tactics, preparation, or coordination going on. It's a skill-based game, so naturally it'd make sense to do some kind of initial check to make sure you are playing w/ people that are likely to be somewhat skilled, no? It's not unlike how in a gear-based game, you would make sure that a player joining actually meets the gear req. before entering. It doesn't take long to do, and you can do it while finding new members (ie. briefly talk to the members you currently have, while you're searching for the rest). And that's where the misconception lies.
Again, I'm not saying people need to run specific skills or specs, and I honestly don't normally do that w/ my PUGs anyway. However, it's a skill based game. There are certain base things that just need to be avoided. I.E. someone can't go into a dungeon with so little HP that they get 1-shotted by trash mobs. Just as (similar to most games) you are going to have a very bad time in a dungeon, if you go in w/ someone who doesn't wait for pulls, and doesn't listen to the rest of the group. Both are things that can be avoided by spending a couple minutes before entering just talking to your party. You don't have to go in completely blind w/ a PUG. Aside from that, though, there are skill choices that people can change (without having to modify their spec) which just make sense. Personally I often switch up my skills to deal w/ certain encounters. I.E. if a boss has heavy anti-melee abilities. It doesn't make sense to go full melee. Just as, if I know I'm going to be taking a ton of damage at the start of a fight, it'd make sense to bring some kind of AoE blind, block, invulnerability, or pet skills to soak up the damage.
You're right, though, the first clear is usually the hardest. It generally is the slowest (as people are still learning the encounters / getting used to your class setup), but it's not uncommon for PUGs to want to do multiple runs. Especially if the first one isn't a disaster. Explorables have very few encounters in this game that are basically 'whelp.. this is going to suck, just do what you can and hopefully we win'. Most have simple tricks or tactics that you can use to make the fight a LOT easier. They don't require a huge amount of coordination, usually just a quick explanation before each major encounter. And really, I don't know of many MMOs where I wouldn't bother asking if people know the fights or not. Especially in a PUG.
The encounters actually don't require specific classes. Yes, certain classes are better at certain types of situations, but it's hardly required. Furthermore, when Anet said they've cleared most encounters with 4 people, they weren't lying. It's been done, but it is a lot more frustrating than w/ 5. I was talking w/ a few guildies today, and we mentioned we might try and put out some videos to show just how doable these dungeons are. Currently we don't have the setup to record, but we may be working on that in the near future.
Honestly, the biggest difference between PUGing in this game vs. other MMOs, is the importance of rallying downed players. Groups where people don't prioritize getting up downed allies quickly, are doomed to failure. Even with a PUG u can make sure people will at least make an attempt to do that.
- To the part in red:
I think you may be overexaggerating what I'm saying in that regard. Again, I don't care about what spec / gear a person has. It doesn't really matter. What I do care about, is that people won't be getting 1 shotted, and that people have basic common sense. That's really all it comes down to, and it doesn't take long to figure that out.
There are certain setups that may make a dungeon run slower (ie if every is heavily specced for condition damage, as conditions have a cap on how they stack), but they're still doable. However, this part of the discussion is starting to get into an issue of efficiency, versatility, and convenience, which is an entirely separate and complex topic on it's own.
Originally posted by GrayGhost79 I've learned the best way to manage pugs is to not verbally lead them unless it's for a specific encounter like the lovers in AC story. Most pugs are eager to follow but for some reason verbally leading doesn't seem to be the way to do it. Go in and call the targets, you will notice that they simply start attacking the targets you call. Lead by example, throw down combo fields and use them yourself, buff party members, use their combo fields and all of a sudden they will start following suite without asking why or needing to be told. It's weird, but this is how my pugs go. I silently lead and it works lol...
Works very well. I pretty much do the same. I call out warnings for the tricky encounters, make sure people are ready for pulls, and call targets. There are certain exceptions (like in butler path CM), where i will have people listen for a sec, as I explain how to bypass having to fight ~20 enemies at the same time, but they are at a minimum.
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC It is a pretty tough dungeon, but once you figure out all the ins and outs it takes literally 20-30 mins to speed run through it and it becomes pretty easy. WIth a good group of 5 of course.
don't see how just for the fact of how much health the mobs have.. we were fighting one that we didn't wipe once on and it took 5 min just to take down that single mob due to its insane health pool...
If you're interested, here's the hardest boss in the game.
The only reason it is the hardest boss is because it is a dps check, requiring 13k group dps and perfect coordination. It's only because of a bug from her 2nd transition that causes her to go to full health if you can't kill her before it happens, but still a month into the game and it has yet to be fixed.
AC is a walk in the park.
You guys should try out Arrah before complaining about AC.
Originally posted by jnsereno AC is a walk in the park. You guys should try out Arrah before complaining about AC. fucking Giganticus...
yea heard Arrah is damn hard:)
Originally posted by moosecatlol Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC It is a pretty tough dungeon, but once you figure out all the ins and outs it takes literally 20-30 mins to speed run through it and it becomes pretty easy. WIth a good group of 5 of course.
is it a confirmed bug? only reason I ask I have had several DE boss encounters people thought were bugs but actually just the mechanics of the fight
LOL, ya Giganticus Lupicus is a pain in the arse!
Definitely one of the hardest bosses in the game (especially if u let him eat those maggots early on)
Originally posted by Aerowyn Finally got around to trying one of these out we choose the lover's tomb path.. By far the hardest dungeon I have played in recent memory. The numerous traps pretty much 1 shot you espeically the fire ones. The first spider boss puts out a ton of AOE poison damage all over the room, we finaly were able ot tackle her then the next big fight consists of a monk and couple others.. One of them is a warrior type with a whirlwind attack that pulls anything within a damn big range too him and insta kills anyone he pulls.. We tried this encounter several times before one of our members droppped out and it was getting late so we called it a night... even in the little bit of it we got through it was extremly challenging and look forward to going back in the future. Another one I did finaly was CM story mode which people said was sooo easy.. I found it to be pretty damn challenging especially the couple rooms that have a swarm of those bandit types.. You get one swarm up stairs then another in the basement.. Also the second to last fight with the bombers was pretty hard as well but overall fun dungeon. Looking forward to seeing the rest of the dungeons and after the last few MMOs I have played nice change of pace to get a good challenge in dungeons.
What is required for Gold Silver and Bronze for those dungeons??
I went on 2 AC explorable runs and after that I refuse to enter any other dungeon. I had such an nasty time with those lizard mounds it just turned me away from even attempting anything else. I have not even done any of the story lines of my 2 level 80's or my baby Mezmer (only level 32 I think) and I don't intend to do them either. I will stick to map completions and exploring the world. I have heard that AC was pretty rough in explorable and the other dungeons are not as bad but I have lost all interest in dungeons after my experience in AC.
Originally posted by Rhonen I went on 2 AC explorable runs and after that I refuse to enter any other dungeon. I had such an nasty time with those lizard mounds it just turned me away from even attempting anything else. I have not even done any of the story lines of my 2 level 80's or my baby Mezmer (only level 32 I think) and I don't intend to do them either. I will stick to map completions and exploring the world. I have heard that AC was pretty rough in explorable and the other dungeons are not as bad but I have lost all interest in dungeons after my experience in AC. Ratero.
Posts like this are the reason why people like myself are so adamant about these dungeons.
The first time really is the hardest, and learning from that initial attempt really does make these dungeons a whole lot easier. They do challenge you, but they also get much easier the more you do them. Too many people are rage quitting at their first taste of challenging content, instead of trying to become better players & learn how to handle the encounters better.
Here's a video that kinda explains it better:
Wooden Potatoes - Explorable Guide Entry
It's a shame so many people quit at the first sign of challenge, because it really is much more rewarding to actually earn your victories, and I'd love to see more people PUGing these, as opposed to complaining about the difficulty in /map.
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by Rhonen I went on 2 AC explorable runs and after that I refuse to enter any other dungeon. I had such an nasty time with those lizard mounds it just turned me away from even attempting anything else. I have not even done any of the story lines of my 2 level 80's or my baby Mezmer (only level 32 I think) and I don't intend to do them either. I will stick to map completions and exploring the world. I have heard that AC was pretty rough in explorable and the other dungeons are not as bad but I have lost all interest in dungeons after my experience in AC. Ratero.
actually a good video showing how hard that AC explorable is.. that's the exact one we did and kholer was the one who destroyed us but as you can see even with a well organized group he still wipes them and they discuss how much skill it really takes to finish these dungeons.. I'm happy the dungeons are a challenge just find it odd how many keep insisting these are extremely easy
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by aesperus Posts like this are the reason why people like myself are so adamant about these dungeons. The first time really is the hardest, and learning from that initial attempt really does make these dungeons a whole lot easier. They do challenge you, but they also get much easier the more you do them. Too many people are rage quitting at their first taste of challenging content, instead of trying to become better players & learn how to handle the encounters better. Here's a video that kinda explains it better: Wooden Potatoes - Explorable Guide Entry It's a shame so many people quit at the first sign of challenge, because it really is much more rewarding to actually earn your victories, and I'd love to see more people PUGing these, as opposed to complaining about the difficulty in /map.
Aye, but as they explain in the video, most of the challenge comes from them trying to figure out how to handle the encounters.
He even explains the point of the video is to show 'how hard these dungeons can be if unprepared for them, but also how easy they can become if you take the time to learn the mechanics'. They even repeatedly say for the encounters 'it's really not that difficult once you figure it out', which is kinda the point we've been trying to make the whole time.
Yes, the first encounter is tough. However, by taking the time to learn the encounters the dungeons get pretty easy. I'd highly suggest watching the rest of the videos for that part of the series. It does a good job of explaining what many players have trouble with in the first video (the one linked above), and then they go into individual paths in the other 3 and do a good job of explaining why people have trouble, and how easy the encounters can become with a few simple tricks / tactics.
- Also, to keep in mind, Wooden Potatoes isn't a top tier player. They aren't a super organized guild. What he's known for is basically lore. He mostly focuses on talking about the story & lore behind the GW2 world. He even admits this in some of his videos. He's certaintly not a bad player, but what you're seeing is actually far from what some of the better guilds / players in the game are capable of. In short, what you see in the videos are easily obtainable. They are fairly average players who took the time to figure the challenges out, rather than just assume they're too difficult and writing them off as 'not worth it'.
Originally posted by AvatarBlade Hmm think they both have areas where they shine better. Guardian has more aoe heals + aoe blocks I think. Has AOE Cond remover. On boons don't know who has more. CC is moderate I'd say and no weakness.
Oh I agree, they each have there respective areas where they outperform the other.
I'm just extremely biased towards Warriors, as I am usually the Warrior filling the aforementioned defensive role lol.
Originally posted by itgrowls I've noticed the people who claim these are easy are all level 80's in exotics...yeah it makes a difference, slight one but a difference none the less. more health and toughness for one.
and usually grouped up with their friends and not just some random people you found sitting around.. to me that's the biggest thing with these dungeons.. I'm sure they are perfectly easy for a well organized group of players who all know what they are doing.. but for many of us who don't have that and do many of our dungeon runs in random PUGs it can get ugly fast... in other games unless one of your teammates had no clue how to play his role dungeons were pretty straight foward.. but these there is a decent level of unpredictability and numerous was to insta-down you that happens and yes you can have strategies and best ways to complete this and that but much is very twitch based and how well you can dodge certain attacks making it much less room for error than most other games dungeons I have played over the years.. I enjoy them though............. so far:)
Definitely helps, but not as much as many people seem to think. Most of the time running dungeons as 80 is more for the loot than anything else (rewards get scaled to your lvl). I've got 3 main characters that I play atm. An 80 necro, a 65 warrior, and a 35 elementalist. I PUG explorables on all 3. Ele is the hardest to run w/, but it has more to do w/ the nature of the class than anything else. Ele's have the lowest HP pool and survivability out of those 3 classes.
Honestly, people that focus too much on gear as a req. for these dungeons are usually a tell of being inexperienced on how the dungeons actually work. Gear can be a crutch, but it's far from a necessity. You can clear these in blues if you really wanted to. Good play and smart skill choices go a lot further towards staying alive & clearing a dungeon, than having better gear or a higher lvl. Being 80 doesn't mean crap if you never learned what your skills are capable of. I've seen quite a few 80s that still haven't grasped how to properly use their skills / traits.
I've seen skilled lvl 40s outlive geared lvl 80s and visa versa. It really depends on the player more than anything else.
Thanks for the responses... However, I'll pass on watching any of the videos. Like I said I'll not step one foot into another GW2 dungeon. As I understand it, there is nothing in there really I could use anyway except for new skins on weapons and gear and while that would be nice I can do without them and I don't have to get frustrated by doing that content.
I will stick to the PvE content in the world and let you all have all the dungeon fun you can stand. I for one got tired of dieing every 5 seconds to those lizards and the repair bill that went along with it.
Have fun the way you want to have fun and I'll do the same.