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Originally posted by Presbytier Originally posted by Cyrael The gameplay model is old. I never intend to play a quest-hub based game again. I really wanted to see FFXIV succeed, but not by propping up outdated mechanics.
There are no such thing as outdated mechanics; only preferences and tastes. I mean just because it uses quest hubs(which I really don't believe are going away; no matter what a GW2 player says) does not mean it will be bad. Now if quest hubs are an outdated mechanic then so is quest text since we can have audio, and don't forget that we should just make walking an outdated mechanic since we can just teleport.
Agreed. The amount of overstatement coming out from GW2 players is really quite much. But, just like with TOR, which had a similar love-fest over it, the cracks are steadily beginning to show.
The game has just launched, what, a month ago or so? And they already want to crown it "genre changer". It might influence some ideas for other developers, just like other MMOs influenced ANet for GW2. Calling it a genre changer is extremely premature at this point.
The "no quest hub" system GW2 uses isn't all roses and rainbows either. Based on the substantial amount of complaints and issues I see mentioned about the whole DE thing - from big fans of the game, not just "haters", etc - ANet didn't strike gaming gold with that setup, either. It has its share of issues and limitations.. just like Quest Hubs do. Personally, I think there's room for both, "quest hub" type areas, as well as DEs. Taking it farther, I think there should be quests you can obtain by locating certain areas, or finding certain items, or killing certain mobs, or given by wandering NPCs, etc. There should be a variety of quest types provided in ways appropriate to how they're given.
That said, MikeB is putting out the same argument as so many others, about how "subs in 2013 may not be the wisest choice". He doesn't state it as fact, but the sentiment is there, and he does introduce it as being a "roadblock" for the game. So, it's pretty easy to see which way he leans on the topic. Regardless, it's not a forgone conclusion. It's not even a valid concern, so long as FFXIV - like other MMOs that remain sub-based - continue to do maintain a healthy enough player base.
I mean come on. FFXIV has had subs for several months now in its current state. FFXI continues to maintain a player-base, even with a subscription fee. Eve Online maintains a sub fee (their whole in-game system is optional), and a list of others. There is no "either/or" here. People keep insisting there's this dichotomy that exists that simply doesn't, nor need it.
Back when SE announced that subs would be reinstated for XIV, many said that "it would be the final nail in the coffin" for the game. That we would all hear the announcement of the game being taken offline shortly after because "subs are a failed, outdated model that no one will support anymore", blah blah. Some were quite smug and confident in their views, talking condescendingly to any who disagreed.
So, SE reinstates subs, and what happens? FFXIV now has far more people playing it than it has at pretty much any other time in its service, save for maybe immediately after launch. It's a busy, active game. You can log in and find people in all cities, shouting for help, looking for groups, selling stuff, etc. You can see groups of people out doing quests, hunting NMs, gathering up for dungeon runs, etc. It's not uncommon to run into others out in the field doing their own thing. There's tons more stuff to do and it's nowhere near the whole "you have to do leves to level up 'cause that's the main type of content". Leves, quests, mob grinding (yes, people still enjoy doing that.. in 2012! Imagine that!) and a variety of other activities are all available for players now.
Of course, you have to be actually playing the game, payting attention to all that to notice. Then you have to be honest enough to convey an accurate state of the game to others, and not the dishonest and blatantly skewed version we see here a lot. I see a lot of comments from people who seem to think XIV is still stuck in the same state it was 2 years ago, as though it's still current. It still has its share of issues, as some issues simply can't be adequately fixed with the current setup (one of the main reasons 2.0/ARR is happening in the first place). But it's a far more playable and, dare I say it, fun MMO now than it was back then. For many people, not just me. Again, the level of activity in the game these days, despite the sub-fees, bears that out.
If this many people are willing to pay a sub fee for XIV, even in its current state, is anyone seriously prepared to predict that - should SE pull it off with 2.0 and not flub it again - that many more won't be willing to do the same?
It's about the player numbers, not the revenue model. Without enough people playing or using the cash shop in F2P or even B2P MMO, those games wouldn't last very long either. Just like subs, a cash shop only works if enough people are using it. Or, more specifically, if the alleged 10% who do pay, are spending enough to account for the 90% who aren't.
The fact - and I have no problem stating it as such, because it proves out time and again - is that people will and do pay a subscription for a game if they enjoy it enough and feel it's worth their time and money.
F2P+Cash Shop works for a certain type of game setup. B2P+Cash Shop works for another type of game setup. P2P works for a certain type of game setup. P2P+Cash Shop works, I suppose, but in my opinion, shouldn't exist as it dips quite gratuitously into the "greed" category. A new revenue model is a new alternative. A new option for developers to consider and choose based on the kind of game they're making and the way they want to deliver that content to their players.
It's one thing to have predicted that F2P would be "the death of P2P" back when it first took hold in the Western Market, because no one really knew at that point just how pervasive it would be. Well, it found its niche in the Western Market, and that niche is typically MMOs that launched with a sub, but failed to gather enough interest to keep the game running. Going F2P is a last-ditch effort for them to keep the game going, rather than taking it offline completely.
It's a life-raft, or "second life" for MMOs that previously would have simply shut down like many have done. Not because "of their revenue model", but because they simply weren't good enough games to enough people.
B2P is another model, although the Cash Shop really puts it closer to a F2P+Cash Shop model than it does to a purely "buy once, play forever" one. ANet didn't implement that cash shop for the hell of it, just "for the off-chance that someone might want to buy stuff from it". They implemented it because it's been proven that cash shops work, when stocked with the right kinds of items that players have shown an interest in. Are the items "mandatory"? No. Are they items that have proven to be popular and consistently good sellers among players? Yes.
The people arguing that all MMOs will go F2P, or B2P, that it's "the future" and that Subs are a thing of the past need to stop trying to live out the dreams in their heads and start paying more attention to the reality happening all around them. Subs are just fine. They might not work for "you", but they certain work for others.
Originally posted by TangentPoint Originally posted by Presbytier Originally posted by Cyrael The gameplay model is old. I never intend to play a quest-hub based game again. I really wanted to see FFXIV succeed, but not by propping up outdated mechanics.
Note that nowhere in my post did I mention GW2. While it does fall into the "no quest hubs" category, it wasn't the first, nor will it be the last. The first MMORPG I ever played, City of Heroes, had no quest hubs to speak of. Just tiers of contacts, though they did lead you through zones in a similar way. None of the games I've played recently work on a quest hub system - that includes Wakfu, Eve Online, and yes, GW2.
While I don't think GW2's dynamic event system is The Game Changer, I do think developers are going to gravitate towards more dynamic content in a similar vein. If FFXIV had decided to model itself on one of these games, I feel the experience would have been better, especially given that levequests in their basic form were extremely well suited for this type of gameplay. But instead they chose the traditional path, in no small part due to the fact that Yoshi-P is a self-proclaimed WoW fan.
Which is probably just fine for many people. The thing about personal tastes is that everybody's is different, and it also tends to change over time. But as someone who's spent years like myself playing games like Aion, LotRO, and WoW, that particular gameplay system is tired, done to death, and basically no longer fun.
@Presbytier By and large, games, both online and off, ARE moving towards audio-heavy, easily accessible systems. See Skyrim, GW2, TOR, TSW, etc for examples of this. I don't believe this is a passing fad, either.
Originally posted by Mannish If you are like me and looking for that old school adventure type mmo where you actually socialize and group with other people then please support this game. Dont know if it will be good but I sure do hope it will be.
I don't think those are really good reasons to ask people to buy and pay a sub for a game Mannish. It just leads to disappointment and backlash especially if the game under-delivers.
I like oldschool gaming too (Lin was my favorite), but they should deliver a damn good game to deserve support. I do hope it will be good though because I loved the older FF series. Here's to hoping the game is good and delivers on expectations.
I really wish there was a Lineage 3 like old Lin. I hope ArcheAge can deliver, but I'm not holding my breath. I think Korea doesn't give a damn about us anymore with all of our whining and bitching about grind, couched in racist slights about their game design.
I'm going to post a link to my comment in an old thread about FFXIV 2.0, because everything still stands.
TL;DR: If it still has auto-attack based combat and lacks any sort of dynamic aspects, the game will continue to fail and only be played by diehard FFXI fans. I wanted to love it, but the change into FFXI-2 (instead of refining and polishing the vanilla release) made me quit.
I can speak for the people sick of the age old auto-attack MMORPG market.
This is why we embraced games like TERA, Guild Wars 2, RaiderZ, etc.. FFXIV had a more action based combat even before those games.. but that was before they changed it all back into what FFXI is like.
Auto-attack games bore me out of my mind; I can't stand playing them unless something is so good about them that I can ignore the dull combat (SWTOR and its story.. and playing with lightsabers), FFXIV wasn't one of them. I'd logon, stand around for a while, go to try and fight some things and logoff shortly after.
Again, if I speak any further I'll just repeat what I said in the other thread.
PS: Check my Xfire sig; I played FFXI for years and I quit for a reason. FFXI-2 is not what I wanted. They can just upgrade the original game with the new engine if they wanted to put the effort into it to please their old fanbase who only want FFXI with better graphics/ease of use.
Well maybe this game just isnt for you then.Funny thing,most people on the forums are mad cause they say FFXIV is turning out to be to much like WOW.
Die hard FF player since 1990 - i think they never should have make FF mmo to begin with.
Up to FF X-2 they created the best rpg's you could play, then something happend, i dont know what...
FF 13 was not a shadow of the once best RPOG series ever created, it was so disapointing that i sold it after 1 hour of playing it, a new record and we are talking about Final Fantasy here, not some shady money grabbing rpg studio.
The time i have spend in the worlds of Final Fantasy are some of the best moments i ever had in my life as a gamer.
The death of Aeris for example...in FF7 was a moment my breath stopped and a burning feeling started behind my eyes...combined with the music my eyes dropped a tear..
The one and only moment in a game where this ever happend.
I wish they could bring more of those moments back in the world of gaming, but it seems they lost their magic.
This Final Fantasy is going to have a following, but it will not break any records that FF11 did. The combat in this game is very lackluster, great animations but you just stand their and attack. Graphics only go so far. Sadly this game is just a final fantasy shell with a ton of other games packed inside of it like wow.
Not going to even touch it and I am a huge FF fan.