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Originally posted by bishbosh2 The problem with PVE is that it is that once you know how to do it, it loses its charm.
For better or ill, that's exactly how I feel about PvP.
People like to make the argument that fighting against a person is somehow different, usually because "anything can happen!!!!11!!!1!!", but it's really not. What you can do in-game in extremely constrained. You have a very limited set of skills you can use, and that's it. The amount of room for anything new and unusual is very small, and generally when someone finds something new and unusual that actually works, it, and its counters, propagate like lightning and very quickly are neither new nor unusual.
In my PvP experience, it doesn't take long to "know how to do it" and not much longer for the charm to wear off. Encountering an enemy player you quickly learn to analyze their likely class/build, generally not hard to discern in most games. From there you know there are a few useful things they could do and a whole lot of stupid things. There are a few useful things you can do to counter, and a whole lot of stupid things. You either do those useful things or you die, simple as that. The outcome boils down to numbers, class balance, a bit of luck, and who doesn't screw up. Really, in the end, not all that different at all from a PvE encounter, save that PvE mobs can do things players can't, which can on occasion add at least a little entertainment.
Overall I can count the number of PvP encounters that were at all surprising on one hand.
For PvE, I might need a digit or two from a second.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by Kyleran
The trinity is not the root of all evil, no and in the past we seen better and worse trinity systems, but you have to agree that it still makes mobs rather stupid and predictable.
Sorry, but tanking really needs to go if you want to improve PvE and we need a new group dynamic instead. Mobs must act more like humans and with tanks that just is impossible.
Well, I think tanking does a reasonable job of simulating reality.
If you were in combat in the field, you really couldn't disengage from the heavy armor wearing dude swinging the broadsword in your face to go attack the archers standing in the background.
I mean, in a game, if we're going to let mobs move around in that pattern, they would have to suffer huge penalties for turning their back on the guys I previously mentioned since they'd get chewed to pieces.
Now I do agree, NPC mages should do more than cast one spell in a fight, or melee should block as well as attack, but overall I think a well managed trinity can do a decent job.
Its just what we have today sort of has been simplified too much IMO.....
This is where I think GW2 did great in removing standard tanking and making the game more reliant on CC and staying on the target to make it want to fight back. Youre right in that IRL they wouldnt be able to just ignore the guy in heavy armor swinging at them, but thats not how tanking usually works. Traditional tanking revolves around the tank being able to simply use a taunt mechanic which forces the enemy to attack him and only him, wether the tank is on top of them or not, and the tank could simply sit there and not swing once yet still pull the aggro.
I always hated the idea of taunt mechanics and think theyre completely unrealistic. IRL if you were past the dude in heavy armor and chasing down an archer, about to finish him off, you wouldnt suddenyl stop, turn around, and run across the battlefield to chase the guy in heavy armor down while the archer goes back to shooting you from a distance just because the guy in heavy armor yelled something at you.
It just makes no sense at all. But if it was a situation where instead you were going after that archer, and a guy in heavy armor rushed in and knocked you on your ass and started hammering away at you trying to keep you from getting your footing and getting near his allies, then you wouldnt have much choice but to take care of him first.
The taunting becomes even more ridiculous when you have 2+ tanks who simply bounce aggro around between eachother. Its like "Hey that guy yelled something at us. Lets get him" 5 seconds later "That other guy yelled at us now. Get him instead" back and forth..... as they completely ignore the mage raining dozens of fireballs on them and the archer shooting them in the face with arrows.
Tanking / guarding mechanics that rely on actually posing a threat to, or being able to cripple a target = win
Tanking that relies on a silly taunt mechanic = fail
As I said, i like GW2s change in focus when it comes to this, as well as any other games that continue getting away from taunt mechanics wether they do it the same as GW2 or not. It gives the "tank" more of a realistic purpose, and also really allows the good "tanks" to shine. Anyone can sit there and press their taunt skill and insta-pull all the aggro, but it will take a more skilled "tank" to get and keep that aggro by utilizing CC at the right times and keeping constant pressure on the foe so they have no other option but to focus him.
Originally posted by gordiflu Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?
I have the opposite impression.
Originally posted by Reizla Why do games like DF and MO not have the millions of subscribers because of the lack of the boring PvE you describe?
These are bad mmos made by indie studios, full of bugs and without polishment.
The mmos made by the bigger studios are mainly themepark (pve focused) because these type of mmo is more friendly to casual players and because they try to imitate WoW (security in first place).
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by gordiflu Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?
PVE games are more than PVP games
MMOs have more PVE content than PVP
PVE servers are more than PVP ones
The 99% was a bit higher than the truth, but i can sure u that is at more than the 80%
If PVP or PVE is better, is a pure subjective question and personal preference.
Using the Bartle classification of mmo players (i strongly recommend the reading for who still didn't), we can infer the following:
Killers = Will love pvp
Socializers = Prefers pve, but will love more the mandatory social interaction of the sandboxes.
Explorers = Prefers pve, but only if the available content and map size are huge.
Achievers = Strongly prefers pve, only pvping if a good reward is at stake, but reluctanctilly, because pvp is harder than pve.
Originally posted by prpshrt You could argue the same for PvP you know? What's worse, its in the same battle ground, arena, etc which is far smaller than a pve space. With PvE you can at least explore stuff.
PVP restrained, controled, "organized" and restricted to instanced BGs is a themepark mmo thing. PVP in sandboxes are completely different in importance, motives and dinamic.
Originally posted by bishbosh2 Originally posted by gordiflu Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full? And whast you said about "learning the drill" on pve can also apply to pvp. What we need is two things: First, more sandbox elements (and please, sandbox does not mean full loot open pvp); second, we need companies to finally start researching properly into proceduraly generated content.
i think sandbox PVE is interesting because of the way PVP interacts with PVE in sandbox game. farming fire lizards in volcano mountain for their scales to make fire lizard scale armor seems like a good idea until you realise there is people there waiting to kill you and steal all your scales. PVP is what makes the PVE fun and exciting.
thats only fun for the pvper. I'm sorry I dont want to be content for you. I risk getting ganked in real life every time i walk ut that door. Thats enough. I dont need or want it in my games.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.Watch your words; they become actions.Watch your actions; they become habits.Watch your habits; they become character.Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.Lao-Tze
Originally posted by defector1968 Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by gordiflu Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?
Correct, because the reasons i spoke early (more casual friendliness and tring to imitate WoW). The pre-WoW and eastern mmos in your majority have more pvp.
MMOs have more PVE content than PVP
MMOs with pvp focus have the "content" emerged from the players interactions themselves.
PVE servers are more than PVP ones
I looked now in Tera Online and seens that pvp servers have more people. If i am not mistaken, the same occurs in wow.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Originally posted by Kenze Originally posted by bishbosh2 Originally posted by gordiflu Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full? And whast you said about "learning the drill" on pve can also apply to pvp. What we need is two things: First, more sandbox elements (and please, sandbox does not mean full loot open pvp); second, we need companies to finally start researching properly into proceduraly generated content.
The "ganking" is only a natural consequence of the bad guys to have brains. if the bad NPCs and monsters would had brains too, they would do tha same or worst.
Originally posted by Bladestrom I could go to a shop in real life and use my 'cunning' to sneak up on some stranger and kick their face in whole they at shopping. Or I could prove my skill by going 1 to 1 with someOne who wants to fight me man to man skill to skill. Spot the coward.
Bad guys aren't used to care to "honor". Bad npcs and monsters wouldn't care too.
Then you are making up your impression. The fact is PvP is not a hugely popular as the PvP crowd wants people to believe it is. PvP works great in some games, but in general it does not belong in every MMO. It does not fit in every MMO, yet most MMOs force it in at some point hoping it will be a hit and it rarely has an impact on those games.
A game built for PvP and PVE can be great fun in both areas. I liked PvP in GW1, I play an online game that is PvP only and thats a lot of fun. But to claim that the PvP servers are the opposite of what the other poster claimed is just arguing to argue.
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by gordiflu Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?
Then you are making up your impression. The fact is PvP is not a hugely popular as the PvP crowd wants people to believe it is. PvP works great in some games, but in general it does not belong in every MMO. It does not fit in every MMO, yet most MMOs force it in at some point hoping it will be a hit and it rarely has an impact on those games. [/quote]
Completely agree. PVP is only "essential" in sandboxes mmos. In themeparks, they are only options of "distraction" artificially added in ultra-controled enviromnents and the OWPvP is more a slip stone in the way of the PVE than a essential part of the game dinamics.
I liked PvP in GW1,
Hum... i heard that GW1 were a completely instanced mmo. If this is true, so GW1 couldn't be even called a mmo.
Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by bishbosh2 The problem with PVE is that it is that once you know how to do it, it loses its charm. It is impossible for developers to develop PVE content at the rate at which it is consumed and this means there will always be not enough content. Developers employ grind mechanics as a damage control and as a result we have silly things like gear grinds.
It is not impossible at all, you just needs a slightly better AI. The problem is that the trinity combat makes mobs retarded and whenever you increase the AI people tend to whine because they actually have to work a bit.
Look on the AI in modern FPS games compared to Doom, making mobs a bit smarter in MMOs doesnt really take a lot of bandwidth or anything, they dont need to be geniuses, just Forrest gump smart.
A bit more randomness wouldnt hurt either.
I love Rage (game) AI type npcs.
It is not necessary to have pvp to make pve good.