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[Column] General: High Expectations

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  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    interesting, two things. A game that's new, that makes you feel like you're not questing when you are, and that has a vast end game and an easily tolerable gear grind.....GW2? because i'm pretty sure she's not talking about the other titles out there. 

    I do agree that it can be the suits in that they force a release too early, but that can't be the end all be all of the blame game. You see. the Devs decide notably the lead devs, what kind of game this game will be. They have meetings, they have the huge wall of crazy so to speak, they have long hours of design before they begin coding or doing the graphics. When you design a crappy lobby game with grandiose claims of doing things in a new way that no one else has done before and then you release a title that is almost identicle to the concepts found in the first release of World of Warcraft. That's not a problem with the suits....that's a problem with the devs, so that argument isn't universally accepted.

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

     

    That's just plain stubborness. Everyone is capable of adjusting their expectations to meet reality when you're just way off center. I know a lot of people that not only choose their level of expectation, but choose whether or not to have any expectation at all, about everything. I'm not judging whether your expectations are reasonable, nor am I in a position to personally judge that about anyone else, but that's a very easy thing to adjust.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

    "Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

    This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

    Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

    I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

    "Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

    This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

    Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

    I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

     

    Yeah, this is exactly my point. We can see when our expectations are just silly and out of line with reality, even if it takes awhile to do so. (Just talking about me here - not pointing a finger) I mainly just look for entertainment now too, and there is a lot of great entertainment out there. I have a few hopes placed on a couple games, but it's much better than it was, and I think they are very reasonable.

     

    I don't know how or when that One True Game syndrome developed, but it definitely caught hold of a lot of MMO fans and is out of control in some people. Life in general is a much better place when you don't place crazy expectations on everything. The smallest things can be pretty remarkable when we are given an experience with no expectations.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

    "Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

    This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

    Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

    I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

    Reasonable Expectation 1) Focus resources on development and quality assurance rather than sinking a great deal into advertising early on. After the game has been released and polished further then focus efforts on advertising and mass marketing.

    Reasonable Expectation 2) Hold release until it's release ready. Minor bugs are fine but game breaking issues are not.

    Reasonable Expectation 3) If you are expecting people to stay and pay for 6 months to a year then there needs to be 6 months to a years worth of enjoyable unique content.

    Reasonable Expectation 4) Don't lie to your fan base and do not wait last minute to inform everyone a promised or hyped/promoted feature got cut months ago.

    Reasonable Expectation 5) Listen to your player base and if you can't do that do not blame them when a change or addition to the game caused a lot to leave. It isn't our fault your game failed, we aren't to blame. You failed to deliver a product that kept us entertained and it is your fault.

    Here's 5 very common reasonable expectations. These are all completely possible and they are reasonable. Lowering expectations further is simply not an option. Many of us have already lowered our expectations, no longer are we expecting MMO's to be virtual worlds like they started out as. I simply can not lower them further without leaving the genre all together. That slippery slope will lead to nothing good for gamers. "Oh it's okay, the game only works 3 days a week and theres only about a weeks worth of content but I had low expectations to begin with...." Yeah I'll pass.

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

    "Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

    This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

    Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

    I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

    Reasonable Expectation 1) Focus resources on development and quality assurance rather than sinking a great deal into advertising early on. After the game has been released and polished further then focus efforts on advertising and mass marketing.

    Not spending a great deal on advertising and mass marketing until after a game releases is just dumb. Can't even believe you said that. Maybe you can explain what you mean by that, because it's just plain bizarre to me and would get you fired from marketing immediately if it was for any of the companies I've worked for... You probably wouldn't make it in the front door though with that perspective. Moving on...

    Reasonable Expectation 2) Hold release until it's release ready. Minor bugs are fine but game breaking issues are not.

    That's very debatable in the details with any release. This just goes back to how much you place in your expectations, because that can still be a very low or very high expectation depending on those little details. Some people make a mountain out of a mole hill way too often.

    Reasonable Expectation 3) If you are expecting people to stay and pay for 6 months to a year then there needs to be 6 months to a years worth of enjoyable unique content.

    The irony is funny here... "If you are expecting...". Right. You're telling them not to expect people to stay and pay if their idea of enough content doesn't meet your expectations..  but you can't ever change your expectations... but they should? ... wow

    Reasonable Expectation 4) Don't lie to your fan base and do not wait last minute to inform everyone a promised or hyped/promoted feature got cut months ago.

    You just don't know what you're talking about here. A lot of little things can change unexpectedly in development. Everyone in the company doesn't have a crystal ball to guarantee everything they say is, and always will be, eternal factual detail implemented exactly as they say it would. I think they expect the fanbase to be a little more intelligent than calling them liars when things didn't go exactly as planned. I don't know if that is more unreasonable expectation by you, them, or a bit of both, but it sure as hell doesn't make them liars. They do what they can to tell players what they want to do with the game. It's plain unreasonable to call them liars for not foreseeing the future and coming back to tell you only the proven details of future content only if and when they have that foresight to guarantee everything they say..

     

    Reasonable Expectation 5) Listen to your player base and if you can't do that do not blame them when a change or addition to the game caused a lot to leave. It isn't our fault your game failed, we aren't to blame. You failed to deliver a product that kept us entertained and it is your fault.

    Here's 5 very common reasonable expectations. These are all completely possible and they are reasonable. Lowering expectations further is simply not an option. Many of us have already lowered our expectations, no longer are we expecting MMO's to be virtual worlds like they started out as. I simply can not lower them further without leaving the genre all together. That slippery slope will lead to nothing good for gamers. "Oh it's okay, the game only works 3 days a week and theres only about a weeks worth of content but I had low expectations to begin with...." Yeah I'll pass.

     

    Expectation 5 is normal, so at least you're 1 for 5 in my book. I think that's obvious to most developers though. 

     

    So no, they are not all completely reasonable, and even if nobody agrees with my reasons for it, they are obviously debatable to different degrees and for different reasons. That makes them expectations that can and will differ between fans. These are expectations that can be changed to give the game more credit than it is getting, whatever that game may be, which is the only point I really care about.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

    "Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

    This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

    Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

    I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

    Reasonable Expectation 1) Focus resources on development and quality assurance rather than sinking a great deal into advertising early on. After the game has been released and polished further then focus efforts on advertising and mass marketing.

    Not spending a great deal on advertising and mass marketing until after a game releases is just dumb. Can't even believe you said that. Maybe you can explain what you mean by that, because it's just plain bizarre to me and would get you fired from marketing immediately if it was for any of the companies I've worked for... You probably wouldn't make it in the front door though with that perspective. Moving on...

    Reasonable Expectation 2) Hold release until it's release ready. Minor bugs are fine but game breaking issues are not.

    That's very debatable in the details with any release. This just goes back to how much you place in your expectations, because that can still be a very low or very high expectation depending on those little details. Some people make a mountain out of a mole hill way too often.

    Reasonable Expectation 3) If you are expecting people to stay and pay for 6 months to a year then there needs to be 6 months to a years worth of enjoyable unique content.

    The irony is funny here... "If you are expecting...". Right. You're telling them not to expect people to stay and pay if their idea of enough content doesn't meet your expectations..  but you can't ever change your expectations... but they should? ... wow

    Reasonable Expectation 4) Don't lie to your fan base and do not wait last minute to inform everyone a promised or hyped/promoted feature got cut months ago.

    You just don't know what you're talking about here. A lot of little things can change unexpectedly in development. Everyone in the company doesn't have a crystal ball to guarantee everything they say is, and always will be, eternal factual detail implemented exactly as they say it would. I think they expect the fanbase to be a little more intelligent than calling them liars when things didn't go exactly as planned. I don't know if that is more unreasonable expectation by you, them, or a bit of both, but it sure as hell doesn't make them liars. They do what they can to tell players what they want to do with the game. It's plain unreasonable to call them liars for not foreseeing the future and coming back to tell you only the proven details of future content only if and when they have that foresight to guarantee everything they say..

     

    Reasonable Expectation 5) Listen to your player base and if you can't do that do not blame them when a change or addition to the game caused a lot to leave. It isn't our fault your game failed, we aren't to blame. You failed to deliver a product that kept us entertained and it is your fault.

    Here's 5 very common reasonable expectations. These are all completely possible and they are reasonable. Lowering expectations further is simply not an option. Many of us have already lowered our expectations, no longer are we expecting MMO's to be virtual worlds like they started out as. I simply can not lower them further without leaving the genre all together. That slippery slope will lead to nothing good for gamers. "Oh it's okay, the game only works 3 days a week and theres only about a weeks worth of content but I had low expectations to begin with...." Yeah I'll pass.

     

    Expectation 5 is normal, so at least you're 1 for 5 in my book. I think that's obvious to most developers though. 

     

    So no, they are not all completely reasonable, and even if nobody agrees with my reasons for it, they are obviously debatable to different degrees and for different reasons. That makes them expectations that can and will differ between fans. These are expectations that can be changed to give the game more credit than it is getting, whatever that game may be, which is the only point I really care about.

    1)   Sure... the game isn't running very well yet, we haven't finished a lot of the content that was planned and stated to be in game at launch but... our best move is to start paying out the arse to get a Superbowl commercial? I'll have to disagree with you there. I'm not saying do no advertising. What I'm saying is hold off on excessive advertising until AFTER you've insured you have a decent game. This benefits all parties involved. Sorry, there is plenty of examples of why excessive marketing prior to release and polish is extremely bad. Look at the retention rate and how the community responds to these kinds of releases.

    2)   Age of Conan had people falling through the world, MO had the same and had people losing items that they did not compensate. How many games have launched with major issues that caused the game to be completely unplayable or an exercise in complete frustration? Hey, maybe if they didn't sink so much into marketing and advertising so early in the development cycle they may have had the budget to get these things ironed out before launch.

    3)  Again, especially in the case of a pay to play they are expecting and counting on players staying beyond the first month for continued revenue. I can lower my expectations if you want and go in with the idea in my head that I'm only going to be playing for a month and burn through what content is there so that I can call it done before that month is up. Personally I think to many do that already, the last thing I think is needed is for even more to lower their expectations and follow suite because face it... if we all did that then pay to plays would die.

    4) Hopefully you understood that I listed multiple different issues here and grouped them together because of the similarities between the issues. Lieing is a different issue than cutting content, mechanics or features. We will break it down.

    Lieing - Fudging subscriber numbers, Lieing about the state of the game, Altering the server load indicators so that they show a tier or two higher than they are. I mean for the love of gaming I'm sick of the Smedley's, NPCubes, Henriks, I forget the original lead developer of AoC but him as well. Be transparant with your community and about your game. Lieing about such things will simply drive even more away.

    Cutting Content, Mechanics, and Features - When it's decided inform your community, don't make a post in some obscure place 3 days before launch, actually tell us when you've decided to cut or remove it. Let us know why. Again be transparant.

     

     

    My expectations won't lower further than they already have. What will happen is I will simply leave the game and not look back which is what many if not most do now and this horrendous rentention rate which has forced pretty much every MMO release these past few years to switch to a f2p model and hope that they can survive.

     

     

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

    "Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

    This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

    Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

    I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining

    You actually manage to find anything out there?  Outside of a month or three, I haven't found a decent title in 6 years, outside of EVE of course.

    It  might help if most MMO's didn't follow a very similar development path, (you know the one), perhaps the folks who are unsatisfied with it would relish the opportunity to play a game with features more to their liking.

    I've stopped the madness, no longer going to support titles that I'm sure are not going to yield the long term playing experience I'm looking for.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

    "Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

    This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

    Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

    I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining

    You actually manage to find anything out there?  Outside of a month or three, I haven't found a decent title in 6 years, outside of EVE of course.

    It  might help if most MMO's didn't follow a very similar development path, (you know the one), perhaps the folks who are unsatisfied with it would relish the opportunity to play a game with features more to their liking.

    I've stopped the madness, no longer going to support titles that I'm sure are not going to yield the long term playing experience I'm looking for.

     

    Off and on, mostly. I played EVE for almost 6 years. But I finally gave up on it, after they lost focus on the game I was interested in. 

    I've been in WoW off and on for more than 8 years now. I started in late beta, and have nine 85's (five US/Four EU). I play each expansion for a few months(3-5) and then move on to something else. 

    I've played almost all of the major games.  Most had at least some entertainment value. (except STO, thats the only game in years and years I dropped after only a few hours).  Hell, I even played Warhammer for two months or so (near launch no less... ^^). 

    The same with Age of Conan, and more Asian games than I really care to think about (level 125 warrior in Cabal online...<face palm>). 

    These days, I'm mainly interested in the combat system, and good graphics. I really loved both in TERA. But I left when they started the all too typical wack a mole nerf/buff cycle.  I have three 60's there (Lancer, Slayer, Warrior).  I was tempted to run Berserker up to 60 (from 35), but with the server merges down to three (one PvE, one RP, one PvP), I'm not certain how long the games going to continue to be around. 

    One of the first games that I really loved was Asherons Call.  I spent more than two years in it, near launch.  Great game for its time, but I'd not wish to go back to corpse runs, and lost gear. Not to mention the graphics are REALLY dated now. 

    I'm currently in Guild Wars 2. Level 45 warrior.  I didn't have a lot of expectations going in, so I can't say I'm disappointed.  But the combat system isn't nearly as good as TERA's, and there is a really limited number of models for weapons and armor (compared to many other games).  Not to mention that the game seems over run by bots (almost as bad as some Asian games I've played). 

    The only game at this point that I'm looking forward to is Wild Star. But given that its a western game, and its publisher is NCsoft... I'm not holding my breath. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDaao0gExZU

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,754Member Uncommon
         IF MMOs are going to ask money from us then we are going to have high expectations.
  • DhraalDhraal VillachPosts: 40Member
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    I don't feel my expectations are too high, I believe where I have played MMO's for 15+ years I have seen a trend. The trend being older games had way more features than todays mmo's.  Features that every mmo should have they no longer think about adding.  Think back to UO, DAoC or SWG, those games had more features than the current mmo's being released. By leaving out some of those great features they automatically fail in most mmo'ers eyes or at least in my opinion.

    I noticed this when I switched from SWG to WoW. An as I heard even SWG and Everquest were a step back from what you could do in Ultima. What I realy miss from SWG in all MMOs that I tried after SWG is the feeling of beeing in an virtual world. I think thats due to Housing, player driven economy, professions like muscian or dancer and player cities which shaped the world. The new ones feel just like most other multiplayer games. 

  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Ozivois
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

    If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

    No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

     

    If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

    Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

    "Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

    This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

    Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

    I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

    Reasonable expectations are there in the minds of most MMO players.  Don't be fooled by these forums; from my experience in-game it's only 2 out of 10 players complain about a game for unreasonable expectations not being met. 

  • itsneoitsneo HAMILTON, ONPosts: 18Member

    Wow, Pocket I am not going to go all "I'm so disappointed in you" but I will have to admit, this is not what I expected from one of your articles.  I have come to expect more from you than this really short, shallow article.   You've always been careful to keep a balance good vs. bad, and gone the extra mile to make the bad seem, well bad without being too rude or obnoxious about it, as many bloggers do.  Enough said on that, except I hope to see the old you back soon.

     

    You have certainly picked a topic I have great interest in, and if anyone has ever read my posts in other threads or blogs will know I have the said time and time again, that no matter the platform, the business model, the genre, the publisher, developer, or any other differentiating factor, the blame for the rise and or more specifically  fall of any title lies with the gaming community as a whole.    

     

    We have become heavily burdoned with expectations, we want to see everything we love from every mmo we've played included in a single title, we want everyting we hate, dislike, and or could do without excluded from the same title.   We've come to expect the fully polished, bug free, exceptional combat system with active, required dodging system, line of sight targeting, fast pased, one shot snipers, invincible tanks with their trusted healer at their side.  We've come to expect a storyline filled with lore, options, voice over, content based on our choices with nearly unlimited variations and an open world to pawn the silly little noob who crossed your uber path with his PvP flag up.   Hey why not.. we are after all the reason the game was made in the first place, we are the consumer who will use, consume, play, live, or otherwise use the software.  Right?  How dare those corporate suits tell us how we should play their game and or what content we can have or what tools, skills, or weapons are left out.   How dare they make my flip over the head of my foe with a double twist and back stab look like I blinked and phased through my foe and smacked the back of their head with my open hand.  How dare they.....  

     

    STOP!

     

    It's their game.  And if they gave us everthing we wanted in one title it would take a life time to develop, test, retest, release, patch, content update, improvements, more expectations, more demands from the players, etc.. on and on and on.  It would never end.   I am not saying that for a second we as gamers have every right, or no right at all to demand anything from any title.  It IS however our choice to continue playing any title we see fit to play.  Will we ever be 100% saticfied with that one game?  Will we ever find a game we love every aspect of, and hate nothing?  No.. we wont.. unless you develop it yourself, and well.. more power to you I wish you all the success in the world.  But I suspect you will piss off allot of players, and perhaps make a few happy.  

     

    The bottom line here is, and I hope everyone who has commented and made some pretty valid points, all of you have, and all of your opinions matter as you are the consumer, you are the player, and your voices shall be heard if even in this forum.   But the bottom line is there are just far too many voices to be heard, far to many opinions, far to many expectations, far to many of us, for any one title, publisher, develper or game house to even think about pleasing everyone.   The current trend is to please the masses, the largest of numbers and don't think for a second the companies are not listening to, reading posts, and or otherwise polling the community to find out how players play, game metrics, statistical reporting, community managers in the forums, customer service inquiries, complaints, praise, you name it.. they listen.  And it is a result of those that they pick and choose from the largest community as possible and implement, plan or design their game around.     Only AFTER the fact do the real voices come out.. and that is those of us who had, for what ever your personal reasons are, higher expectations, than the average.    We will always be the ultimate consumers, we will blast through the content, designed for the average casual player to take 6 months to complete, in a week or less.  We will always be the one's who claim combat sux, or is too unresponsive, we will be the one's who complain end game is really end of the game for us as there is nothing more.  We will always be the first to come back after a major patch just to get the newest latest top end game gear.    We will always come back......  IF we loved the game, even for a short time.    So I put to you a question, all of you.  Which game is it that YOU always go back to?  Why? Perhaps the first mmo you ever played?

     

    I will conclude with one last statement, no matter our expectations, be they unrealistic or not, we will always find fault where there is fault and sometimes where there is none, and that fault is relative to YOU, not the game in general (bugs aside).  We are individuals, unique in our expectations as much as we are unique in all aspects of our lives.   How can we as a community expect a single game developer and their partners to churn out a product that meets ALL our expectations?  I think that is our biggest, unrealistic expectation of all.

     

    GAME OVER!

     
     
     
  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    So no, they are not all completely reasonable, and even if nobody agrees with my reasons for it, they are obviously debatable to different degrees and for different reasons. That makes them expectations that can and will differ between fans. These are expectations that can be changed to give the game more credit than it is getting, whatever that game may be, which is the only point I really care about.

    1)   Sure... the game isn't running very well yet, we haven't finished a lot of the content that was planned and stated to be in game at launch but... our best move is to start paying out the arse to get a Superbowl commercial? I'll have to disagree with you there. I'm not saying do no advertising. What I'm saying is hold off on excessive advertising until AFTER you've insured you have a decent game. This benefits all parties involved. Sorry, there is plenty of examples of why excessive marketing prior to release and polish is extremely bad. Look at the retention rate and how the community responds to these kinds of releases.

    2)   Age of Conan had people falling through the world, MO had the same and had people losing items that they did not compensate. How many games have launched with major issues that caused the game to be completely unplayable or an exercise in complete frustration? Hey, maybe if they didn't sink so much into marketing and advertising so early in the development cycle they may have had the budget to get these things ironed out before launch.

    3)  Again, especially in the case of a pay to play they are expecting and counting on players staying beyond the first month for continued revenue. I can lower my expectations if you want and go in with the idea in my head that I'm only going to be playing for a month and burn through what content is there so that I can call it done before that month is up. Personally I think to many do that already, the last thing I think is needed is for even more to lower their expectations and follow suite because face it... if we all did that then pay to plays would die.

    4) Hopefully you understood that I listed multiple different issues here and grouped them together because of the similarities between the issues. Lieing is a different issue than cutting content, mechanics or features. We will break it down.

    Lieing - Fudging subscriber numbers, Lieing about the state of the game, Altering the server load indicators so that they show a tier or two higher than they are. I mean for the love of gaming I'm sick of the Smedley's, NPCubes, Henriks, I forget the original lead developer of AoC but him as well. Be transparant with your community and about your game. Lieing about such things will simply drive even more away.

    Cutting Content, Mechanics, and Features - When it's decided inform your community, don't make a post in some obscure place 3 days before launch, actually tell us when you've decided to cut or remove it. Let us know why. Again be transparant.

     

     

    My expectations won't lower further than they already have. What will happen is I will simply leave the game and not look back which is what many if not most do now and this horrendous rentention rate which has forced pretty much every MMO release these past few years to switch to a f2p model and hope that they can survive. 

     

     

    Thank you for further proving my point. It's not an issue of you can't adjust your expectations. It's an issue of you won't adjust your expectations even though they obviously can be adjusted from one person to the next to give a game more credit, allowing you to enjoy something just as other people do. You have chosen not to for the many exaggerations you've already posted that don't apply to a handful of great MMOs. It's not entirely the fault of developers, and a debate like this over simple personal (especially exaggerated) opinion will never end, so I'm ending my part in it on this note.

     

    Go ahead and leave the game if all you can do is bitch. That won't necessarily show the developers they need to change so much as it will show you both that you are probably not a part of their target (or wanted) audience. You can't win with some people, and in your case I don't think they should even try. You exaggerate way too much. If a game gets much broader dissatisfaction, than they will see it in the numbers and have to consider how to do better. If a game has very reasonable, positive expectations and succeeds by the numbers, than they did a good job with their pre-release marketing and development of the product, whether you think so or not. Considering how much you exaggerate, I'm not surprised some MMO developers have problems with the direction of their games. Some people just don't see things rationally and they have to be just as good at sorting out the trash talk as they do about developing a game.

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itsneo

     

    I will conclude with one last statement, no matter our expectations, be they unrealistic or not, we will always find fault where there is fault and sometimes where there is none, and that fault is relative to YOU, not the game in general (bugs aside).  We are individuals, unique in our expectations as much as we are unique in all aspects of our lives.   How can we as a community expect a single game developer and their partners to churn out a product that meets ALL our expectations?  I think that is our biggest, unrealistic expectation of all.

     

    GAME OVER!

     
     
     

     

    Well said. image

  • TorlukTorluk EdinburghPosts: 162Member

    Maybe I'm missing some subtelty in your argument but it seems like you two (Itsneo and Irishchai) are saying that if a company brings a product to market and the consumers don't like that product then it is the consumers fault for not liking the product.  

    That is clearly a silly thing to say, so what am I missing?

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torluk

    Maybe I'm missing some subtelty in your argument but it seems like you two (Itsneo and Irishchai) are saying that if a company brings a product to market and the consumers don't like that product then it is the consumers fault for not liking the product.  

    That is clearly a silly thing to say, so what am I missing?

     

    There's a difference between having reasonable expectations and having unreasonable expectations. I think if a game succeeds in numbers and majority than some of the unreasonable expectations get thrown at the game by the minority that exaggerated how it fails to be a good game, and vice-versa. Unsuccessful games by the number and majority understandably receive bad responses and are less likely to be an issue of unreasonable expectations. My main point is expectations or perspective can be adjusted by us when we seem to be hating on a very successful title, or people can just choose to have different, stricter expectations and not enjoy a game as a result.

     

    I think it's silly to say you can't adjust your expectations or perspective at all. That's just plain wrong. Everyone can improve or adjust their perspective and expectations. So many people do that I think it should be pretty obvious. Sometimes your expectations are just too high or hyped. It is not necessarily all the consumer's fault or the developer's fault. I am not saying it's always the consumer's fault, but it absolutely can be. It would be just as silly to say every complaint thrown at a developer is automatically accurate and something they need to change.

  • TorlukTorluk EdinburghPosts: 162Member
    Originally posted by IrishChai
    Originally posted by Torluk

    Maybe I'm missing some subtelty in your argument but it seems like you two (Itsneo and Irishchai) are saying that if a company brings a product to market and the consumers don't like that product then it is the consumers fault for not liking the product.  

    That is clearly a silly thing to say, so what am I missing?

     

    There's a difference between having reasonable expectations and having unreasonable expectations. I think if a game succeeds in numbers and majority than some of the unreasonable expectations get thrown at the game by the minority that exaggerated how it fails to be a good game, and vice-versa. Unsuccessful games by the number and majority understandably receive bad responses and are less likely to be an issue of unreasonable expectations. My main point is expectations or perspective can be adjusted by us when we seem to be hating on a very successful title, or people can just choose to have different, stricter expectations and not enjoy a game as a result.

     

    I think it's silly to say you can't adjust your expectations or perspective at all. That's just plain wrong. Everyone can improve or adjust their perspective and expectations. So many people do that I think it should be pretty obvious. Sometimes your expectations are just too high or hyped. It is not necessarily all the consumer's fault or the developer's fault. I am not saying it's always the consumer's fault, but it absolutely can be. It would be just as silly to say every complaint thrown at a developer is automatically accurate and something they need to change.

     

    I agree that folks can choose to change their expectation or perspective as you say, I have no issue with that.

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