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[Review] Guild Wars 2: Raising the Bar

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Comments

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    I don't think Innovation should be such an important factor in scoring a game.  A lot of genres are fairly well defined and don't require paradigm shifts to be enjoyable or solid games. 

    Considering how the word "innovative" is thrown around these days, I'm inclined to agree. Frankly, I'm still trying to find a solid definition for the word, considering everyone uses it differently.

  • romanator0romanator0 Glendora, CAPosts: 2,382Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

    image

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    Let me ask you a question... There are 10 Mc Donald's like restaurants in a street. And suddenly, some guy opens a Taco Bell. I intentionally use two fast food examples so you can't use that as argument. Would anyone complain that for once, someone tries something different. For hell's sake, you aren't even forced to eat at the Taco Bell, there are 10 Mc Donald like games just a few meters away.

    That my point. For 8 years, I've seen people here complain that every new MMORPG looks like WoW. Now that one doesn't look like WoW, the same people complain that it doesn't look like WoW. If that isn't nonsense... of course it is.

    I don't dictate what is fun to a person. But I'm also amused at people complaining that the food at Taco Bell isn't the same than at Mc Donalds. Specially when they have a much wider choice than the Taco Bell amateurs.

    Your assumption is that everyone who dislikes this game because it's not enough like WoW are hypocrites. I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that the people complaining that everything is a WoW clone are the same exact people who complain that this game isn't enough of a WoW clone. If you can find even 1 person on these forums who complained about games being WoW clones and then complained GW2 wasn't enough like WoW, I'd be impressed.

    I think what you're percieving is that, no matter what the game, someone is going to complain about it.

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Orlando, FLPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by Izik

    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    Izik:

    This game isn't designed for you. I like gw2, but I can't bloody stand EQ, and I'm not that keen on wow.


     

    Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.

    How can something that wasn't released until 2004 be credited with creating the genre?  It (WoW) didn't create anything, it popularized the genre.  This kind of quote is as bad as saying "WoW was the first MMO".

    Indeed, the first successful graphical MMORPG (beside early niche stuff like The Realm or Meridian and a few others) is Ultima Online. And Ultima Online is definitely closer to Guild Wars 2 than to any EQ/WoW clone.

     

    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    I totally agree with that score - which is well deserved just for having the "balls" to get away from the WoW clone model in an AAA theme park MMORPG. And it's a success.

    Those who don't like it are for most either bitter sandbox fan who are just hating on every new MMORPG anyway (so their opinion isn't worth much), or prisoners of the EQ/WoW clone model where everything should be a grind for a shiny purple reward instead of just playing for fun.

    There are very few MMORPGs I'd rate above 9.0 in the 17+ years I'm playing the graphic version of that genre - and GW2 is one of them.

    I would say that most of the people hating on it are bored. The idea of the game seemed better than the actual implementation. There are tons of posts of people who didn't realize what combat would be like minus the trinity or a game without gear / vertical progression. There are a lot of people who don't want to redo content being down leveled. They are not all "bitter" sandbox fans or "prisoners" of the WoW/EQ model. Even if they are, why must you demean them for something they like. To them, grinding for that purple may be fun.

    They are bored precisely because they need that gear carrot from EQ/WoW clones. Without it, they can't play a game... they can't play a game just for fun, like many did in games like UO and AC1.

    And yes, I "demean" them... I demean people who need a game to be a second job at max level to play it. And I do that because they are the main cause why all AAA MMORPGs in the last 8 years are WoW clones. I'm glad to have a game where the gameplay doesn't drastically change and force you into a group based raid grind at max level. Seriously, all those grind greedy people can play WoW or any of its numerous clones, and just stay the hell away from the only AAA theme park game in 8 years which had the balls to move away from that rigid model.

    PS: this comes from a guy who played WoW for 8 years (including beta) and will certainly try Pandaria at some point. But for hell's sake, it's time to break that mold... for those who want more WoW, there is WOW. I'm glad to have a game that is NOT WoW. Not to mention all those who have tried to imitate the master sucked at it.

    The endless chain of mediocre to bad WoW clones is broken. Any true MMORPG fan should rejoice, even if he doesn't like GW2, because despite him not liking it, the game is a success showing that things can be done differently. Or do you guys want to spend the next 10 years getting more poor WoW clone after poor WoW clone?

    To some people that is fun..... Who are you to dictate what is fun to a person. I see you being no different than someone who tells someone that they are playing the game wrong.

    You only answer to like 10% of my post, at best.

    Let me ask you a question... There are 10 Mc Donald's like restaurants in a street. And suddenly, some guy opens a Taco Bell. I intentionally use two fast food examples so you can't use that as argument. Would anyone complain that for once, someone tries something different. For hell's sake, you aren't even forced to eat at the Taco Bell, there are 10 Mc Donald like games just a few meters away.

    That my point. For 8 years, I've seen people here complain that every new MMORPG looks like WoW. Now that one doesn't look like WoW, the same people complain that it doesn't look like WoW. If that isn't nonsense... of course it is.

    I don't dictate what is fun to a person. But I'm also amused at people complaining that the food at Taco Bell isn't the same than at Mc Donalds. Specially when they have a much wider choice than the Taco Bell amateurs.

    The thing is that you are whining about people who tried Taco Bell and decided to go back to the Mc Donald's style restaurant. Sure, there were lots of people that thought that they were going to like the new restaurant, but then when they sampled it they decided that it wasn't as good as what they had been eating. What is the wrong with that. I don't take time out of my day to demean people for what they like or don't like.

    As for what is highlighted, you might want to revise that. You certainly did state that these people weren't playing these games for fun ("or prisoners of the EQ/WoW clone model where everything should be a grind for a shiny purple reward instead of just playing for fun") when this might certainly be their idea of fun.

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mmaize
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Wolvards
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by abeltensor

     

    with a broken dungeon system and no distinguishable class system, a hidden quest system and absolutely no end game this game doesnt deserve any of the praise its getting.  It basically is the game that will break the genre of the MMORPG and turn serious gamers away.  In-fact, i think MMOs died when WoW came out and every mmo after that decided to make their content all quest based.  

    Back in the days of real MMOs where you invested 1000s of hours into your character and went on quests that were for unique items most of which sucked in retrospect but where fun to have because you could say i got that by competing this mammoth quest that involved talking to No NPCs.  Instead these games no supplement those unique items with achievements which don’t really matter either way.  GW2 isn’t innovative, Its ambitious but that about it.   The idea of breaking the Holy Trinity is quite a good one, but the way it was executed was horrible.  The idea of level scaling was a good one, but in the game it was horrible.  Etc etc.  There so much in this game that sounds good on paper but really turns out to be a bad decision.  

    For any one who was into the old school MMOs, the "Hard-core" crowd this review is an insult and a horrifying look into what is supposedly considered to be innovative in this genera. 

    THIS TIMES 1,000,000

    It is a complete insult.  Now we know that people prefer generic and stupid over thought provoking and complex.  Wonderful....another beautiful creation destroyed by the "Pop Culture"...

    Then why don't one of you two, oh wise grandmasters of MMORPGs, give us an example so profoundly amazing, that everyone that played old-school MMOs would say, "YES! THAT is INNOVATION!".

    Because i'm pretty sure opinions vary regardless of what time period you started playing.

    Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.

    That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while..and that's saying something on here.  Completely changing the framework of how a character approaches quests in terms of I am the master of my domain I explore and as I explore I see that things are going on in the area I am at to which I have the choice of joining or not vs. The old Go here and collect 10 of these which by the way nearly EVERY MMO out there prior has done, is in fact, innovation.  You can sit there and debate the level of innovation all you want to but it's innovation just the same.  I didn't like Tera but their approach to combat in an MMO setting was innovative.

    What you don't get to do is decide that something that was newly introduced or introduced in a way that hadn't been done before or was a fresh new look on an old idea doesn't fit into the definition of innovative simply because it doesn't meet your standard.

    LOL...you're funny.  To think that you have more choice than in other themeparks as far as quest progression is concerned is completely false.

    Also, something that has the same inner workings with a different outer shell is normally called a "second", "third", "fourth" edition when speaking of books with the same title, same innards and a slight variation.  I think I'll use this same thought process with your definition of "innovation"....

    image
  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by Izik

    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    Izik:

    This game isn't designed for you. I like gw2, but I can't bloody stand EQ, and I'm not that keen on wow.


     

    Well considering both of those games created this genre, I think it's fair to compare them to GW2.

    How can something that wasn't released until 2004 be credited with creating the genre?  It (WoW) didn't create anything, it popularized the genre.  This kind of quote is as bad as saying "WoW was the first MMO".

    I agree....the game that really deserves a 10 for innovation is Anarchy Online.  It was the first to introduce many of the mechanics now over-used and abused by all themeparks....for example....instanced dungeons...

    It makes me wish I'd played AO, but I wasn't into MMOs at the time really.  Hey, it's still going I think and maybe it'd run on this POS pc I'm on.  Anyway, I think the problem game reviewers potentially see in reasoning like yours is that AO was a huge innovator, so if it got a 10, that'd mean every game in between then and now would have had to innovate further and further, which would mean MMOs would get a much lower score these days because there's not much room left to innovate the standard systems.  I dunno..

    Trust me, AO was awesome...the graphics are a bit hard to stomach these days though...lol

    The point I'm trying to make is that if you put AO next to GW2 and run an innovation test, AO will be 100 and GW2 with be about 5-10.  So to give GW2 a 10 in innovation when it really has not brought anything new to the table (not even lack of trinity because Champions Online introduced that...as Im sure some others before it did) is a bit ridiculous.  I'd probably give GW2 a 6 for innovation (even though I wouldn't have a seperate score for it....it would be added into gameplay and other scores).  I'd give it a 6 for jump quests and multi-user mat nodes.  That's it though....nothing else was innovative.  just rehashed, repackaged things from other games.

    image
  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by romanator0
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

    Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Yakamomoto

    Originally posted by Randayn

    Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.


     

    Don´t worry, just take another MMO site off the credibility list, like I just did.

    Innovation 10, woah this is a real kicker.

     

    Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.

     

    If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.

    By giving it a 10 for innovation he's not saying that's all the innovation any game is ever going to have from here on out.  He's saying the differences this particular game has over current games is way better than pretty much anything he has seen to this point.  That doesn't  mean a game won't come along in the future and be just as innovative as GW2 in a different way.

     

    Besides, his overall score was 9.3.  That leaves room for improvement, I'd say.

     

    But, if disagreeing with someone over how they rate a game makes you want to quit playing MMOs, I'll be glad I won't run into you in an MMO in the future.

    the issue still remains that you cannot give a game a score for innovation unless they have actually innovated.  Jump quests and multi-user mat nodes....that's what they innovated.  Nothing else was a brand new idea brought to the forefront.  

    Don't say DE's because they are still quests (some of the worst actually) and you still have to go somewhere (a hub) to get them, you just dont have to talk with anyone.  Don't say personal story....SWTOR anyone?  Don't say lack of trinity...I played Champions Online at launch and there was no trinity....it was a zerg/respawn fest much like GW2.  

    So please tell me what they've brought to the table that is entirely new and innovative?  Please....

    image
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by romanator0
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

    Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

    song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

     

    People, the bar has been up there. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, those games raised the bar. We've been wallowing well under the bar for about 8 years now thanks to WoW and its platoon of clones. GW2 is the first AAA MMORPG in years to even come close to the old MMOs (by, go figure, reusing ideas from Dark Age of Camelot) but lets not pretend its the best there ever was. It's just the first game to actually TRY in 8 years, but that doesn't invalidate the greatness of those golden age MMORPGs.

    I have a question, why do people want the old MMOs? Because they were better, and made with a lot more care. Come on people, there is a reason the genre has changed. And that reason is because old MMOs became popular, so publishers got involved, but didn't want to do anything new, so they just plopped out the same garbage over and over. The market wants it. Haha no they clearly don't, considering every single WoW clone over the last 8 years has done really poorly and merged servers within months of launch. These people who comment about how this game comes close or offends them becuase the old MMOs were better gotta be kidding me. Take it from people who were actually there instead of guessing about times you never experienced. We're not kidding you. You all remind me of a English teacher who refused any new English. We had to pronounce words like metaphor into metapher and crap like that. Er, that's because that's how the word is pronounced. You don't go into a math class and say "but we want 2+2 to equal 10!" We hated it. He also had an odd superiority complex that I do not understand to this day. Back to the main issue, my point is things change and grow as time goes on. Hopefully, for the better. And in this case, not for the better. But hey, fuck us for wanting better products, right? There is a reason old MMOs do not exist. Right, because publishers who have no understand of the MMO industry stepped in. Becuase they weren't as good as you remembered them. I just played a freeshard the other day, it was just as amazing as I remember it. Better, actually. I've gotten used to such low quality products that I was kind of amazed how good the game was. In fact, they sucked. Thanks, yeah, I'll believe you, the person who never played old MMOs.

    Listen, if you're going to debate about something, come in with even ANY idea about what you're talking about. If those old MMOs suck, then why did GW2 basically copy and paste their entire PvP design from old MMOs?

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by romanator0
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

    Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

    song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

    I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

    image
  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Yakamomoto

    Originally posted by Randayn

    Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.


     

    Don´t worry, just take another MMO site off the credibility list, like I just did.

    Innovation 10, woah this is a real kicker.

     

    Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.

     

    If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.

    By giving it a 10 for innovation he's not saying that's all the innovation any game is ever going to have from here on out.  He's saying the differences this particular game has over current games is way better than pretty much anything he has seen to this point.  That doesn't  mean a game won't come along in the future and be just as innovative as GW2 in a different way.

     

    Besides, his overall score was 9.3.  That leaves room for improvement, I'd say.

     

    But, if disagreeing with someone over how they rate a game makes you want to quit playing MMOs, I'll be glad I won't run into you in an MMO in the future.

    the issue still remains that you cannot give a game a score for innovation unless they have actually innovated.  Jump quests and multi-user mat nodes....that's what they innovated.  Nothing else was a brand new idea brought to the forefront.  

    Don't say DE's because they are still quests (some of the worst actually) and you still have to go somewhere (a hub) to get them, you just dont have to talk with anyone.  Don't say personal story....SWTOR anyone?  Don't say lack of trinity...I played Champions Online at launch and there was no trinity....it was a zerg/respawn fest much like GW2.  

    So please tell me what they've brought to the table that is entirely new and innovative?  Please....

    Then I must give Apple a 1 innovation... Star Trek had stuff like the iPad way before they did. But, wait, they are one of the largest companies in the world. Waaaaaaaaaahhhh?! 

    Innovation is how you present it also. I find people mix revelation and innovation with each other. No, this game gets a 10 innovation becuase it presented and worked itself out to be something different, new, raw. Innovation can be worked on grown.other MMOs can not do this simply becuase of normal questing, such as wow and tsw. Gw2 has the chance, not saying it isn't already, to innovate itself even more than it is now. This is how they innovated, they are not stale or incumbent end by laws set by other MMOs. They grew out of that. They said they were going to be drastically different than any other MMO out there, and it is an innovation that they were. That is my thought on this anyway.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by grimgryphon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

    Well, in all fairness, the same person does not review all the games on MMORPG.com so there will be differences in how each game is scored.

    I generally agree with Murphy -- not this time -- but generally.

    Bitton is another matter...

    They all gave SWTOR 9s. Only one person didn't, and he got fired over it. True story.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon

      Raising the Bar Humm...

     Exploring = 90% of the time following your nose to a location clearly marked on the map. (Look Ma I'm Exploring!) Ah yes pat yourself on the back, Very challenging.

     Socializing? Your forced into a zerg where 95% of the players don't say a word, and where its generally face roll easy enough that some Slob will tag a critter and then spend the rest of the DE dancing, because he/she will still get exp and loot reward.

      In so many ways GW2 lowered the bar to the point its almost like a single player game with alot of random AI npc's running around.

      It caters to the super casuals that can't be bothered with things like stratagey, chat, or even knowing ones class mechanics. (Dungeons being perhaps the one evception.)

      

  • MahavishnuMahavishnu BerlinPosts: 336Member

    Great review for a great game. Thank you Bill :)

    This MMO brings so much to the table - the score is well earned. It is so funny to read all these silly flames, as they would ever criticize another MMO in the same way. The best thing about this game is, that he designers really put a lot of thought into many details to make it a better experience than in the average wow-clone-mmo.

    I can understand, that die-hard fans of games like Vanguard or Darkfall do not like GW2. But for the common casual theme-park-oriented player it is the best choice.

    Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by romanator0
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

    Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

    song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

    I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

    pretty sure wow started that many years ago sorry..

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by evolver1972
    Originally posted by Yakamomoto

    Originally posted by Randayn

    Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.


     

    Don´t worry, just take another MMO site off the credibility list, like I just did.

    Innovation 10, woah this is a real kicker.

     

    Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.

     

    If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.

    By giving it a 10 for innovation he's not saying that's all the innovation any game is ever going to have from here on out.  He's saying the differences this particular game has over current games is way better than pretty much anything he has seen to this point.  That doesn't  mean a game won't come along in the future and be just as innovative as GW2 in a different way.

     

    Besides, his overall score was 9.3.  That leaves room for improvement, I'd say.

     

    But, if disagreeing with someone over how they rate a game makes you want to quit playing MMOs, I'll be glad I won't run into you in an MMO in the future.

    the issue still remains that you cannot give a game a score for innovation unless they have actually innovated.  Jump quests and multi-user mat nodes....that's what they innovated.  Nothing else was a brand new idea brought to the forefront.  

    Don't say DE's because they are still quests (some of the worst actually) and you still have to go somewhere (a hub) to get them, you just dont have to talk with anyone.  Don't say personal story....SWTOR anyone?  Don't say lack of trinity...I played Champions Online at launch and there was no trinity....it was a zerg/respawn fest much like GW2.  

    So please tell me what they've brought to the table that is entirely new and innovative?  Please....

    Then I must give Apple a 1 innovation... Star Trek had stuff like the iPad way before they did. But, wait, they are one of the largest companies in the world. Waaaaaaaaaahhhh?! 

    Innovation is how you present it also. I find people mix revelation and innovation with each other. No, this game gets a 10 innovation becuase it presented and worked itself out to be something different, new, raw. Innovation can be worked on grown.other MMOs can not do this simply becuase of normal questing, such as wow and tsw. Gw2 has the chance, not saying it isn't already, to innovate itself even more than it is now. This is how they innovated, they are not stale or incumbent end by laws set by other MMOs. They grew out of that. They said they were going to be drastically different than any other MMO out there, and it is an innovation that they were. That is my thought on this anyway.

     

     

    in·no·va·tion

       [in-uh-vey-shuhn]  Show IPA

     

     

    noun
    1.
    something new or different introduced: numerous innovationsin the high-school curriculum.

     

    2.

    the act of innovating introduction of new things ormethods.

     

    REALLY????

     

    image
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

     

    People, the bar has been up there. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, those games raised the bar. We've been wallowing well under the bar for about 8 years now thanks to WoW and its platoon of clones. GW2 is the first AAA MMORPG in years to even come close to the old MMOs (by, go figure, reusing ideas from Dark Age of Camelot) but lets not pretend its the best there ever was. It's just the first game to actually TRY in 8 years, but that doesn't invalidate the greatness of those golden age MMORPGs.

    I have a question, why do people want the old MMOs? Because they were better, and made with a lot more care. Come on people, there is a reason the genre has changed. And that reason is because old MMOs became popular, so publishers got involved, but didn't want to do anything new, so they just plopped out the same garbage over and over. The market wants it. Haha no they clearly don't, considering every single WoW clone over the last 8 years has done really poorly and merged servers within months of launch. These people who comment about how this game comes close or offends them becuase the old MMOs were better gotta be kidding me. Take it from people who were actually there instead of guessing about times you never experienced. We're not kidding you. You all remind me of a English teacher who refused any new English. We had to pronounce words like metaphor into metapher and crap like that. Er, that's because that's how the word is pronounced. You don't go into a math class and say "but we want 2+2 to equal 10!" We hated it. He also had an odd superiority complex that I do not understand to this day. Back to the main issue, my point is things change and grow as time goes on. Hopefully, for the better. And in this case, not for the better. But hey, fuck us for wanting better products, right? There is a reason old MMOs do not exist. Right, because publishers who have no understand of the MMO industry stepped in. Becuase they weren't as good as you remembered them. I just played a freeshard the other day, it was just as amazing as I remember it. Better, actually. I've gotten used to such low quality products that I was kind of amazed how good the game was. In fact, they sucked. Thanks, yeah, I'll believe you, the person who never played old MMOs.

    Listen, if you're going to debate about something, come in with even ANY idea about what you're talking about. If those old MMOs suck, then why did GW2 basically copy and paste their entire PvP design from old MMOs?

    GW2 gets more credit than they deserve in the innovation department, and that's simply because there aren't many MMORPG gamers left. Not golden age MMO gamers anyway. The people who saw these ideas the first time around and don't credit their inception to GW2, are fewer than those born in WoW who have REALLY low MMO standards. You can always tell when someone played WoW first when they argue that stuff like LotRO and AoC are "SO TOTALLY DIFFERENT" from WoW.

     

    In any case, I'll always be grateful for GW2 for getting rid of the retarded quest mechanics of WoW, but its PvP is still just an unpolished version of DAoC's PvP.

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by romanator0
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

    Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

    song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

    I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

    pretty sure wow started that many years ago sorry..

    I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

    image
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by romanator0
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

    Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

    song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

    I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

    pretty sure wow started that many years ago sorry..

    I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

    lol melodrama much?

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

     

    People, the bar has been up there. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, those games raised the bar. We've been wallowing well under the bar for about 8 years now thanks to WoW and its platoon of clones. GW2 is the first AAA MMORPG in years to even come close to the old MMOs (by, go figure, reusing ideas from Dark Age of Camelot) but lets not pretend its the best there ever was. It's just the first game to actually TRY in 8 years, but that doesn't invalidate the greatness of those golden age MMORPGs.

    I have a question, why do people want the old MMOs? Because they were better, and made with a lot more care. Come on people, there is a reason the genre has changed. And that reason is because old MMOs became popular, so publishers got involved, but didn't want to do anything new, so they just plopped out the same garbage over and over. The market wants it. Haha no they clearly don't, considering every single WoW clone over the last 8 years has done really poorly and merged servers within months of launch. These people who comment about how this game comes close or offends them becuase the old MMOs were better gotta be kidding me. Take it from people who were actually there instead of guessing about times you never experienced. We're not kidding you. You all remind me of a English teacher who refused any new English. We had to pronounce words like metaphor into metapher and crap like that. Er, that's because that's how the word is pronounced. You don't go into a math class and say "but we want 2+2 to equal 10!" We hated it. He also had an odd superiority complex that I do not understand to this day. Back to the main issue, my point is things change and grow as time goes on. Hopefully, for the better. And in this case, not for the better. But hey, fuck us for wanting better products, right? There is a reason old MMOs do not exist. Right, because publishers who have no understand of the MMO industry stepped in. Becuase they weren't as good as you remembered them. I just played a freeshard the other day, it was just as amazing as I remember it. Better, actually. I've gotten used to such low quality products that I was kind of amazed how good the game was. In fact, they sucked. Thanks, yeah, I'll believe you, the person who never played old MMOs.

    Listen, if you're going to debate about something, come in with even ANY idea about what you're talking about. If those old MMOs suck, then why did GW2 basically copy and paste their entire PvP design from old MMOs?

    Hey, guess what, I was talking about MMOs prior to wow, which seems to be the end all be all in your mind. 

    Edit: and you build new things on the ideas of old. Doac, which you seem to refer to a lot, barely has the amount of mechanics GW 2 does, now does it?

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by romanator0
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

    Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

    song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

    I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

    pretty sure wow started that many years ago sorry..

    I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

    lol melodrama much?

    not at all...ratings mean alot more than you might make them out to mean....not to the gamer, but to the companies vying for power in the MMO industry, yes.  Why?  Because they aren't stupid....and they want to make money.  They will make what they think people want, which ratings play a big part in.  I don't think it's melodramatic to say what I said above....I think it's realistic.

    image
  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

    lol melodrama much?

    not at all...ratings mean alot more than you might make them out to mean....not to the gamer, but to the companies vying for power in the MMO industry, yes.  Why?  Because they aren't stupid....and they want to make money.  They will make what they think people want, which ratings play a big part in.  I don't think it's melodramatic to say what I said above....I think it's realistic.

    and if companies are going to start going the way of no quest hubs and non raid type endgame and actually trying something new for an overall game design I welcome it with open arms instead of suffering through the same old same old every year.. GW2 is a breath of fresh air to me and many themepark fans

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Randayn

    I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

    lol melodrama much?

    not at all...ratings mean alot more than you might make them out to mean....not to the gamer, but to the companies vying for power in the MMO industry, yes.  Why?  Because they aren't stupid....and they want to make money.  They will make what they think people want, which ratings play a big part in.  I don't think it's melodramatic to say what I said above....I think it's realistic.

    and if companies are going to start going the way of no quest hubs and non raid type endgame and actually trying something new for an overall game design I welcome it with open arms instead of suffering through the same old same old every year.. GW2 is a breath of fresh air to me and many themepark fans

    I disagree on no quest hubs.  Hubs are where you can get a quest.  not necessarily where a person is to give you a quest.  There are plenty of "hubs" in GW2.  Also, addition by subtraction doesn't work in this instance.  

    If a game is made to reach max level quickly (within a month) then you can't just say, "Uh...we're gonna be cool...and...and not have an endgame!!!"....and expect loud roars and cheers.  why remove something that didn't need to be removed?  Especially when no new "innovations" were presented to take it's place?

    image
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    It doesn't have hubs.

    A hub is where you go to some village, pick up 20 quests do them, then pick up another 10 or so that send you back where you just went, after that you get quest sending you to next hub.

    That is hub based gameplay
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