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[Review] Guild Wars 2: Raising the Bar

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gwei1984

    Originally posted by Kuppa

     SPvP on actually 1 (one!) type of map?


     

    Ive always find it so interesting that folks complain about there not beign more "types" of maps(or maps themselves) in pvp.  The spvp in this game is actually fun and structuraly sound, which is VERY hard to do. Yes, there could be more maps or types of maps but if I had to choose I would go for just better pvp. Its easier to add new maps than it is to fix broken pvp.


     

    SPvP is good and i really like the approach to get everyone on the same step of gear. The community seems a bit immature, because there are a lot of leavers and flamers out there. Sometimes you would think you are playing LoL with all its idiots.

    But considering maps and diversity, SWTOR did a better job with an outstanding huttball map and 2 other fine maps which differed from each other greatly, so that they didnt get boring.

    Well, I found pvp in TOR to be generally horrible and sort of the same type of pvp we've seen in other mmos. Yes, they add more map types. Usually that happens when you don't really have solid pvp, just add more maps and types of maps. And keep in mind while GW2 maps are all cap the flag, each of them has a different element to it which really comes into play in tournament play.

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  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Eir_S
     

    How is their longevity for PVE players in WoW?  It's only the illusion of longevity.  While you're waiting til next week for that chance at a drop, you're paying money.  In the meantime, you keep yourself busy with the same kinds of tasks as in GW2, but since GW2 is B2P, there's no reason for them to make you wait.  Blizzard knows damn good and well that if they removed things like raid locks and daily maxes completely, no one would be playing their expansions very long.

    Who said anything about WoW? 

    What endgame are you comparing GW2's to?  You have to be comparing it something's.  Otherwise, you wouldn't be disappointed.  You wouldn't know the difference.  So if it's not WoW, then what is it?  My post answers a few of your own in this thread... GW2 doesn't make you wait for lockouts to be up, thus people can grind what they want without ridiculous, unnecessary limitations.  Of course they're going to burn through content faster.  But what game does it better without limitations?

    Endgame and longevity are not the same thing.

    Also, I'd compare longevity to games like UO, EQ, Vanguard, Aion, EVE....those games alone have kept people for years.  What has happened to the genre that we are now congratulating companies that keep us occupied for more than a few days?  Has the genre really turned into this?

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Wonky. Strange world we live in were sensationalism out scores substance.

    What world have you been living in?  I'm not saying this is true of GW2, but look at all forms of media.  Sensationalism USUALLY outscores substance.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by grimal

    Longevity 9?   How in the world did you come up with this number?

    Edit:  I guess since "hundreds and hundreds of hours" equals a 9, the expectation is for an MMO to satiate our appetites for a month?  If so, what's the big deal if it's B2P or P2P since all the content is done within that first month and there is never a need to pay past the inital box price?

    There is tons of longetivity in this game simply with the pvp. Best in the industry, IMO.

    I was going to leave this whole review and thread alone and let the super fans have their moment all cheering about how amazing this unamazing game is.

     

    Best PvP in the industry? I've PvPed in pretty much every MMO that has had the option and I've been playing MMOs since The Realm. This is some of the most boring PvP I have ever encountered in my entire gaming life. This statement is so absurd I can't even fathom it.

     

    To put in perspective how crazy this statement is, it made me post in this thread when:

     

    The innovation score should have been a 1. They literally did NOTHING new. How can they have a 10 innovation score without innovating? It is ridiculous. Yet I did not post in this thread.

    Longevity? Really? The game gets boring faster than most MMOs out there. It is one massive boring kill task or WvW boring pointless zergfest. There is little longevity to this game on a large scale. There will be a small audience that sticks with it for a long time, like almost any product, but it doesn't have mainstream longevity at all. Yet I did not post in this thread.

    Such a high overall score? They game was fairly polished (with a big exception being DEs that weren't in the starter zone. I can't count how many of those I saw bug out) which is a good thing. The graphics weren't bad, not amazing, but not bad. It is easy to learn and easy to figure out where to go next. All of those things are good things. The problem is the game lacked substance. They took out the fun part of MMOs: good/deep story, interesting quests in varied interesting dungeons with a wide variety of puzzles/bosses, having lots of customization, creating socialization, quality PvP with a point. It left in the kill and gather tasks and the exploration awards (which pretty much every game does now anyway). Yet I did not post.

     

    But to have the insane audacity to claim best PvP in the industry. That blew my mind so much I literally had to post. To take a queue off of a pissed off NYT writer I will simply end with: Really? Best PvP in the industry, really? Really?

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by grimal

    Longevity 9?   How in the world did you come up with this number?

    Edit:  I guess since "hundreds and hundreds of hours" equals a 9, the expectation is for an MMO to satiate our appetites for a month?  If so, what's the big deal if it's B2P or P2P since all the content is done within that first month and there is never a need to pay past the inital box price?

    There is tons of longetivity in this game simply with the pvp. Best in the industry, IMO.

    But if one is not interested in the PVP, then what?  How is there longevity for the PVE players?

    That is definately questionable. But there is longetivity there, if you like it or not is more personal.

    Well, if you want to look at it that way, you can say every game has a 9 longevity even if it's a matter of nothing to do since there might be 1 person that actually likes logging in and doing absolutely nothing.

     

    Edit: This is the much larger problem of the method in which reviewers review MMOs.  You cannot give an MMORPG a fair score until after the honeymoon phase has worn off.  Otherwise, it's all an emotional response with little thought behind it.  This keeps getting pointed out again and again yet every reviewer wants to put their review out after a few days play of a game in a genre that by its very nature is supposed to have a long-time playstyle.  Its a sad day indeed when an MMO has the same shelf-life of a console game and we go and give them a 9 for it.

     

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Eir_S
     

    How is their longevity for PVE players in WoW?  It's only the illusion of longevity.  While you're waiting til next week for that chance at a drop, you're paying money.  In the meantime, you keep yourself busy with the same kinds of tasks as in GW2, but since GW2 is B2P, there's no reason for them to make you wait.  Blizzard knows damn good and well that if they removed things like raid locks and daily maxes completely, no one would be playing their expansions very long.

    Who said anything about WoW? 

    What endgame are you comparing GW2's to?  You have to be comparing it something's.  Otherwise, you wouldn't be disappointed.  You wouldn't know the difference.  So if it's not WoW, then what is it?  My post answers a few of your own in this thread... GW2 doesn't make you wait for lockouts to be up, thus people can grind what they want without ridiculous, unnecessary limitations.  Of course they're going to burn through content faster.  But what game does it better without limitations?

    Endgame and longevity are not the same thing.

    Also, I'd compare longevity to games like UO, EQ, Vanguard, Aion, EVE....those games alone have kept people for years.  What has happened to the genre that we are now congratulating companies that keep us occupied for more than a few days?  Has the genre really turned into this?

    Sorry, when I hear longevity on these forums my mind immediately conjures up the word endgame.  You're right of course, everyone is looking for a quick fix.  The reason I don't see GW2 as a failure like some people do is that this is the game they set out to make, they didn't fail at making an old school MMORPG... they just made one for the audience that is playing right now.  I'm not saying I agree with it completely, but I haven't lost all hope that there will be a game here and there that presents the same kind of experience as the old days.  Not so sure about Aion though.  In that case, maybe it's the PvP that's kept them going.

  • UkihaUkiha BCNPosts: 58Member
    I have the game, i have been playing it like 3 months, i like it ALO',but i think the score is too much...7 or 8 would be decent score.
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,262Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Wonky. Strange world we live in were sensationalism out scores substance.

    What world have you been living in?  I'm not saying this is true of GW2, but look at all forms of media.  Sensationalism USUALLY outscores substance.

    So we should expect more of the same huh? 

  • abeltensorabeltensor Monkton, MDPosts: 25Member

     

    with a broken dungeon system and no distinguishable class system, a hidden quest system and absolutely no end game this game doesnt deserve any of the praise its getting.  It basically is the game that will break the genre of the MMORPG and turn serious gamers away.  In-fact, i think MMOs died when WoW came out and every mmo after that decided to make their content all quest based.  

    Back in the days of real MMOs where you invested 1000s of hours into your character and went on quests that were for unique items most of which sucked in retrospect but where fun to have because you could say i got that by competing this mammoth quest that involved talking to No NPCs.  Instead these games no supplement those unique items with achievements which don’t really matter either way.  GW2 isn’t innovative, Its ambitious but that about it.   The idea of breaking the Holy Trinity is quite a good one, but the way it was executed was horrible.  The idea of level scaling was a good one, but in the game it was horrible.  Etc etc.  There so much in this game that sounds good on paper but really turns out to be a bad decision.  

    For any one who was into the old school MMOs, the "Hard-core" crowd this review is an insult and a horrifying look into what is supposedly considered to be innovative in this genera. 

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Eir_S
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Wonky. Strange world we live in were sensationalism out scores substance.

    What world have you been living in?  I'm not saying this is true of GW2, but look at all forms of media.  Sensationalism USUALLY outscores substance.

    So we should expect more of the same huh? 

    Probably.  It's hard to tell what games are good anymore unless you play them for yourselves.  Every AAA game is likely to get good ratings for one reason or another... but I wouldn't discount "the game is actually really good" as being one of them.  Maybe it's unlikely, but it's not impossible.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by Ukiha
    I have the game, i have been playing it like 3 months, i like it ALO',but i think the score is too much...7 or 8 would be decent score.

    It's not always about what score a game deserves.  When a site gives something like - not so random example: SWTOR - a high score and then something obviously better comes out, they don't leave themselves much wiggle room.  By 2015, I expect most sites will adopt a 1 to 15 score since they've done a bang up job of watering down 1 to 10.

  • ZeGermanZeGerman Andover, MAPosts: 196Member

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by grimal

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by grimal

    Longevity 9?   How in the world did you come up with this number?

    Edit:  I guess since "hundreds and hundreds of hours" equals a 9, the expectation is for an MMO to satiate our appetites for a month?  If so, what's the big deal if it's B2P or P2P since all the content is done within that first month and there is never a need to pay past the inital box price?

    There is tons of longetivity in this game simply with the pvp. Best in the industry, IMO.

    But if one is not interested in the PVP, then what?  How is there longevity for the PVE players?

    That is definately questionable. But there is longetivity there, if you like it or not is more personal.


     

    More importantly there is no longevity in most games when looking at pure PvE without expansions.  GW2 will release more content.  Without expansions WoW provides no more longevity.  You get to 80 within a few weeks as an casual player and then what run the said raid over and over? You can do that in GW2 as well run dungeons and events over and over to farm up for legendary weapons.

  • Insane666Insane666 gdanskPosts: 66Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by abeltensor

     ( ... ) 

    For any one who was into the old school MMOs, the "Hard-core" crowd this review is an insult and a horrifying look into what is supposedly considered to be innovative in this genera. 

     

    QFT

    Games previously played: AO, AoC, Aion, AoW, Eve, SWTor, WaR, STO, TSW, DCUO, FE, BP, ProjectEntropia, FootballSuperstars!

  • DoomgrinDoomgrin Colorado Springs, COPosts: 2Member

    I would really like to see some guild/player housing implemented.  DAoC housing was pretty fun, especially the trophy aspect which could be rolled into crafting and give people reasons to hunt in every zone.

    I generally agree with the article.  People cry about "map completion" like it is just running around.  All the events you can participate in is where the fun is.  The down-leveling system (which surprisingly was not mentioned) is extremely fun.  I just wish they would incorporate more benefits that are level appropriate for doing down-leveled content which is currently limited to a chance you random drop is of near-level.

  • gwei1984gwei1984 GrazPosts: 373Member Uncommon
    Also one point i forgot to mention. Does anyone really like this f... downed-system? I think its utterly annoying and does nothing to raise the depth of pvp. Anyone tried killing a mesmer in a crowded fight knows what i mean, its just not fun^^

    Hodor!

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by gwei1984
    Also one point i forgot to mention. Does anyone really like this f... downed-system? I think its utterly annoying and does nothing to raise the depth of pvp. Anyone tried killing a mesmer in a crowded fight knows what i mean, its just not fun^^

    There was a big thread about this a while back.  I kind of agree that the downed state is not as viable for PvP... it makes killing someone really hard.  In PVE it's pretty awesome though.

  • gwei1984gwei1984 GrazPosts: 373Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Eir_S

    Originally posted by gwei1984

    Also one point i forgot to mention. Does anyone really like this f... downed-system? I think its utterly annoying and does nothing to raise the depth of pvp. Anyone tried killing a mesmer in a crowded fight knows what i mean, its just not fun^^

    There was a big thread about this a while back.  I kind of agree that the downed state is not as viable for PvP... it makes killing someone really hard.  In PVE it's pretty awesome though.


     

    Jup, disabling it in pvp would be a great step in the right direction.

    Hodor!

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Good review Bill, I agree with it.

    But the best part of this review is reading all of the vitriol from the jilted anti-fans of GW2 ;).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Downed state makes pvp more tactical. It's one of the factors that helps smaller organised groups beat bigger less organised groups.
  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by abeltensor

     

    with a broken dungeon system and no distinguishable class system, a hidden quest system and absolutely no end game this game doesnt deserve any of the praise its getting.  It basically is the game that will break the genre of the MMORPG and turn serious gamers away.  In-fact, i think MMOs died when WoW came out and every mmo after that decided to make their content all quest based.  

    Back in the days of real MMOs where you invested 1000s of hours into your character and went on quests that were for unique items most of which sucked in retrospect but where fun to have because you could say i got that by competing this mammoth quest that involved talking to No NPCs.  Instead these games no supplement those unique items with achievements which don’t really matter either way.  GW2 isn’t innovative, Its ambitious but that about it.   The idea of breaking the Holy Trinity is quite a good one, but the way it was executed was horrible.  The idea of level scaling was a good one, but in the game it was horrible.  Etc etc.  There so much in this game that sounds good on paper but really turns out to be a bad decision.  

    For any one who was into the old school MMOs, the "Hard-core" crowd this review is an insult and a horrifying look into what is supposedly considered to be innovative in this genera. 

     I started playing MMORPGs with UO...and I even played a MUD named Medievia before that came out.  I think I qualify as old school, yet I am not "insulted" and "horrified" by Bill's review.

    Honestly...I just don't understand you guys.  I loved UO, I really hope there is a new game like UO in the future.  But that doesn't mean that I am going to go to every MMORPG that is not like UO and be "insulted" by it.  That is just silly.

    It would be like if I was a hardcore civilization fan, and I go to the forums for Sins of a Solar Empire and just continuosly whine about how its an insult to all 4X games because it's not turned-based like Civ.

    You basically just have to accept that themepark MMORPGs are not, and will never be like UO.  They are a completely different sub-genre.  There is no point is whining about their existence.  Many people actually enjoy BOTH themepark and sandbox MMORPGs.  Don't begrudge them because you can't.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • blbetablbeta elkhart, INPosts: 79Member Uncommon
    Hated GW1, love GW2.  Fits me quite well.

     


    I Agree with review mostly.

  • RavingRabbidRavingRabbid Virginia beach, VAPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    While I think its a good game (IMO) it definently does not deserve a 9.3 rating, The gameplay is shallow and repetitive. I rarely find myself signing in and playing anymore and that to me is a big factor. IMO it doesnt deserve anything beyond a 6.95.

    All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
    Playing: SWTOR, ESO, WOT, and Marvel Heroes

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by grimal

    Longevity 9?   How in the world did you come up with this number?

    Edit:  I guess since "hundreds and hundreds of hours" equals a 9, the expectation is for an MMO to satiate our appetites for a month?  If so, what's the big deal if it's B2P or P2P since all the content is done within that first month and there is never a need to pay past the inital box price?

    There is tons of longetivity in this game simply with the pvp. Best in the industry, IMO.

    I was going to leave this whole review and thread alone and let the super fans have their moment all cheering about how amazing this unamazing game is.

     

    Best PvP in the industry? I've PvPed in pretty much every MMO that has had the option and I've been playing MMOs since The Realm. This is some of the most boring PvP I have ever encountered in my entire gaming life. This statement is so absurd I can't even fathom it.

     

    To put in perspective how crazy this statement is, it made me post in this thread when:

     

    The innovation score should have been a 1. They literally did NOTHING new. How can they have a 10 innovation score without innovating? It is ridiculous. Yet I did not post in this thread.

    Longevity? Really? The game gets boring faster than most MMOs out there. It is one massive boring kill task or WvW boring pointless zergfest. There is little longevity to this game on a large scale. There will be a small audience that sticks with it for a long time, like almost any product, but it doesn't have mainstream longevity at all. Yet I did not post in this thread.

    Such a high overall score? They game was fairly polished (with a big exception being DEs that weren't in the starter zone. I can't count how many of those I saw bug out) which is a good thing. The graphics weren't bad, not amazing, but not bad. It is easy to learn and easy to figure out where to go next. All of those things are good things. The problem is the game lacked substance. They took out the fun part of MMOs: good/deep story, interesting quests in varied interesting dungeons with a wide variety of puzzles/bosses, having lots of customization, creating socialization, quality PvP with a point. It left in the kill and gather tasks and the exploration awards (which pretty much every game does now anyway). Yet I did not post.

     

    But to have the insane audacity to claim best PvP in the industry. That blew my mind so much I literally had to post. To take a queue off of a pissed off NYT writer I will simply end with: Really? Best PvP in the industry, really? Really?

    Its personal opinion, that's why I wrote IMO. Besides that there is an abid pvp fanbase, of course you disagree with all of them. BTW what is your preferred mmorgp pvp? Keep in mind Im mainly talking about spvp, I know many mmo gamers HATE spvp. They prefer the gankfests, not sure if that is what you prefer though.

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by grimal

    Longevity 9?   How in the world did you come up with this number?

    Edit:  I guess since "hundreds and hundreds of hours" equals a 9, the expectation is for an MMO to satiate our appetites for a month?  If so, what's the big deal if it's B2P or P2P since all the content is done within that first month and there is never a need to pay past the inital box price?

    There is tons of longetivity in this game simply with the pvp. Best in the industry, IMO.

    But if one is not interested in the PVP, then what?  How is there longevity for the PVE players?

    That is definately questionable. But there is longetivity there, if you like it or not is more personal.

    Well, if you want to look at it that way, you can say every game has a 9 longevity even if it's a matter of nothing to do since there might be 1 person that actually likes logging in and doing absolutely nothing.

     

    Edit: This is the much larger problem of the method in which reviewers review MMOs.  You cannot give an MMORPG a fair score until after the honeymoon phase has worn off.  Otherwise, it's all an emotional response with little thought behind it.  This keeps getting pointed out again and again yet every reviewer wants to put their review out after a few days play of a game in a genre that by its very nature is supposed to have a long-time playstyle.  Its a sad day indeed when an MMO has the same shelf-life of a console game and we go and give them a 9 for it.

     

    There is a big difference from logging in and doing nothing, because there is nothing to do and doing nothing because you don't want/like to do it.

    image


    image

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member
    Originally posted by RavingRabbid
    While I think its a good game (IMO) it definently does not deserve a 9.3 rating, The gameplay is shallow and repetitive. I rarely find myself signing in and playing anymore and that to me is a big factor. IMO it doesnt deserve anything beyond a 6.95.

     Hahah GW2, a D+ game.  I love it :).

    I know it's just your opinion, but I find it quite amusing.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

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