I started rolling my eyes when you mentioned subscription models being bad, then again when you said quest hubs don't work.
Even though this article is supposed to be about FFXIV, anyone who's frequented this website can see it's really more of a GW2 fanboy post.
Yes because FF14 is doing so well. They say this about everygame on this site. They think everything should be free. They even used it to justify how horrible SWtoR was doing. It doesn't have anything to do with GW2 regardless how jelous you are of that game.
I think they are still heading in the wrong direction. I loved FF up to 10 when it was horrible and missing half of the content most FF games had up until then. FF12 tried to bring it back but lost their way with 13+.
I've been reading up on it and it makes me sad everytime. They said they were adding new races but all they did was use high res versions of FF11 and then doubled them by making them black. They said they were doing new graphics then did a press release saying the reason for it is because the version of crystal tolls wouldn't work on the ps3 port. They said they were adding jump and removing boundries but the corridors are still locked into place. I'm hoping they make A FF15 and return to their old ways before they decided to ruin the series.
I payed 70 bucks for this crap the first time around, I won't touch it unless I don't have to pay another up-front fee and I get at least a free week.
I remember my second day playing, a quest sent me on some pointless run though the map in a maze like canyon with mobs so high a level and so weirdly spaced that the quest was impossible.
Oh and the economy lol...
sigh... I will be checking my e-mail for an invite from SE. If I don't get one y'all have a great time!
The one thing FF14 had going for it was its sandboxy nature. You had the economy driven completely by players. You had an interesting hybrid class/skill based advancement system. You had a large world. You had open world dungeons. Other than some "main scenario" quests, player's weren't told where to go and how to enjoy the game.
Sounds great on paper. And for a LONG time, I was able to look past a lot of the issues and enjoy the game. Simply put, the game was bogged down with so many issues and it felt very much like a work in progress. For the most part, things worked, but the entirety of the game didn't gel together.
The current dev team has made huge in-roads into making a fun, engaging game. However, their direction does point to a "WoW" model. I do believe FF:ARR will be great for what it is. However, I do fear that its "sandbox" roots will slowly dissappear.
I'm on board for the relaunch. I will have achieved pretty much all of my personal PvE GW2 goals by the time it gets here and that game will step back for this to be my 'A' game. GW2 is many things to me, and I am a fan, but I need quality group PvE content, which I am hoping this will deliver.
I'm hoping the turn around is a success. Open beta was garbage and launch had zero improvements. I logged on a few times during the free phase but haven't gone back since. If they do figure out how to turn it around I'd like to make the jump from ffxi. Been off and on that game since fall of 2003. Nine years of the same game just seems wrong to me lol.
FF11 was garbage at release, and I seriously doubt it turned out any better despite having a large enough japanese following to keep it afloat.
It turned out much better. It was a solid, stable game by the time it was released in the US. 10 years and 7 expansions later, they're releasing a brand-new expansion adding an entire new continent, new jobs, new storyline. FFXI has been a cash cow for SE.
It's still doing much better than most any other MMO that's been out as long as it has.
It amazes me how people continue to underestimate just how successful FFXI has been. How little they know about it.
Square just never understood the genre. They tried to copy EQ with FF11 instead of making a game that was similar to FF5-10 like they could have. They failed to innovate even when for them it would have been easy because they had a single player mold to work with.
They understood the genre just fine. For one, you have to remember that XI launched when EQ1 was still the reigning king of MMO scene, so for them to emulate it was entirely logical. Second, while "modern" MMOs were being released, following the WoW model (casual friendly, etc), and falling below 300k subscribers or lower inside their first year, FFXI maintained ~500,000 players upwards of 7 years into its service - despite "copying EQ" and "not understanding the genre" - as you put it.
Of course, to look at it another way - because the game isn't what you want or expect, it isn't indicative of SE "not understanding MMORPGs". It's simply indicative of you not liking the game.
It's just not possible to completely change foundational concepts, which is what ff14 truly got wrong.
XIV had a lot of good ideas, just horrible implementation of them. We'll never know how well it could have turned out if they'd done things better. And hey, at least they tried something different, right? Isn't that what so many MMO players claim to want? For a MMO developer to stop emulating every other popular MMO and do something different? Well, the risk of doing something different is that it might not work. In SE's case with XIV, it didn't. That's why they're (unfortunately) playing it a bit more "safe" with 2.0.
Oh look, a completely CG trailer. That's totally the best way to show off a new and improved version of the thing people hated most, THE FRIGGIN GAMEPLAY.
Not that it wasn't pretty, SQE certainly knows how to make a nice cinematic. Honestly they should just stick to making movies. WTB FFX version of Advent Children.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
"all looks promising. Honestly, the game is looking pretty slick."
Lol.. Where have you been?
Everything SE are doing with FFXIV is archaic and an not even remotely innovative. They intend to add a quest-based progression system into a game where you level multiple classes... in other words the quests will be mass-produced drivel which nobody will enjoy.
It's a recipe for disaster.
Besides adding shadows to the engine, theyve actually downgraded a lot of the textures. The only redeeming features left are things which were introduced in the initial launch, such as the robust crafting system and detailed character models (which are also getting downgraded).
I was one of those very disappointed. At least as much as I loved console incarnations.
But this video looks very very promising and I guess will for sure try. No matter how much mad i was about them, being sure will never ever return to SE.
For the sub I have no problems if game will be good. I'm big fan of sub model. :-)) I would never expect somebody working for free and only real way to get money back AND being motivated to invest more and more time and man power and hadrware is sub model. I hate actually cash shops as usually one pay more money for crappy game with "free" model than would get for full game with sub. But sure there are games not worth even playing, not free not sub. And there are those that could never exist as sub based, i.e. GW1. On the other side, GW2 is so far ONLY and unique suprise in high quality for P2P game. Ok, have cash shops, have spent there 30€ so far, ... but nothing that one would REALLY need. I only wonder how much man power and money will be they willing to invest after this money have been used and when people will have purchased all that was possible from shops.
I payed 70 bucks for this crap the first time around, I won't touch it unless I don't have to pay another up-front fee and I get at least a free week.
I remember my second day playing, a quest sent me on some pointless run though the map in a maze like canyon with mobs so high a level and so weirdly spaced that the quest was impossible.
Oh and the economy lol...
sigh... I will be checking my e-mail for an invite from SE. If I don't get one y'all have a great time!
Square stated along time ago that as long as you have a character in the system, even if dormant, you will be able to download ARR free of charge. There is your invite.
The problem is, Michael, FF online games are written by Japanese games designers for the Japanese gaming tastes. That means a game that can be hit or miss with Western players used to playing WoW. Undoubtedly XIV had a rock launch, but SE made the game F2P while they sorted the game out and relaunched a superior game. However, it isn't WoW or GW2, so many will still simply not get it. Is it time for an MMORPG re-review, yes it is. But if it is re-reviewed then it is important to get a reviewer this time who likes FF games, isn't put off by a non-Western mindset to the gaming at times, and plays the game solidly for 3-4 weeks to see what is actually going on.
Most likely they will not make their money back they may be able to get some people back i highly doudt this game will get it due even if they revamp the whole thing no mmo that crashed so bad has ever even with fixs been able to get past that post lunch fail. AoC is a good example lovely game but has never fully recovered from it failure at lunch
Oh look, a completely CG trailer. That's totally the best way to show off a new and improved version of the thing people hated most, THE FRIGGIN GAMEPLAY.
Not that it wasn't pretty, SQE certainly knows how to make a nice cinematic. Honestly they should just stick to making movies. WTB FFX version of Advent Children.
You're joking right? There are already gameplay videos on youtube.
I started on this game back at pre-launch and play it for a bit after every update before returning to other titles. There really isn't anything posted above that isn't true. The game at release was a abject failure. Initially having to search through endless retainers, lack of mail system, extremely high delays in menu, NPC, and battle command interface, etc., etc. I also can't leave out the high system requirements that at the time of launch alienated a large portion of the potential fan base. To date, some of those items they have remedied and some are still a point of aggrevation.
While anyone who has played this game to this point has a right to be disappointed and highly skeptical, I would preach patience for the upcoming version. There has been enough progress to this point to have some guarded optimism that they can make this a game worthy of our time and more importantly money. The beta version will be here soon enough and we will get to make our own impressions from the work in progress. My particular concern for the relaunch isn't the aim of their goals for the features that they plan on implementing but more the timeline that they are holding to. I simply do not think they will have everything that would be necessary to make a "A" title completed by the intended launch timeframe.
One thing I hope that the development team and those making the financial decisions realize is that the MMO landscape has drastically changed in the past two years. At the FFXIV release, MMO options were increasing but still fairly limited where most options were subscription based. The market is now saturated and FTP is more prevalent than not. The FF brand name and PS3 availability will help get gamers in the door but the subscription system may lead many to choose other options.
One thing I hope that the development team and those making the financial decisions realize is that the MMO landscape has drastically changed in the past two years. At the FFXIV release, MMO options were increasing but still fairly limited where most options were subscription based. The market is now saturated and FTP is more prevalent than not. The FF brand name and PS3 availability will help get gamers in the door but the subscription system may lead many to choose other options.
The landscape has changed in terms of gameplay expectations, but subsciption games have not gone out of fashion. Players are more than willing to pay for a good game. There are millions and millions of subscription-payers in the MMO marketplace, and most people who can afford a computer to run FFXIV can commit the money to pay a monthly.
Subscription model is least of FFXIV's worries.
The problem with FFXIV will be, upon release, it will be hailed as another boring WoW clone. Unimaginative. Uninnovative. etc.
Basically all the redeeming features of FFXIV will be the things it released with 2 years ago. Version 2.0 will just bring some functionality to the gameplay, but otherwise do nothing remotely interesting/innovative.
What S.E. fail to realise is that it shouldn't take 2 years to make a UI and add some quest hubs. And quiet frankly there are a lot of games released recently, and on the horizon, which have really shown consumers that they don't have to simply go around passively digesting these quest-grind MMOs, which is what Square have made a point of emphasising FFXIV will be, as though it's a good thing,
One thing I hope that the development team and those making the financial decisions realize is that the MMO landscape has drastically changed in the past two years. At the FFXIV release, MMO options were increasing but still fairly limited where most options were subscription based. The market is now saturated and FTP is more prevalent than not. The FF brand name and PS3 availability will help get gamers in the door but the subscription system may lead many to choose other options.
The landscape has changed in terms of gameplay expectations, but subsciption games have not gone out of fashion. Players are more than willing to pay for a good game. There are millions and millions of subscription-payers in the MMO marketplace, and most people who can afford a computer to run FFXIV can commit the money to pay a monthly.
Subscription model is least of FFXIV's worries.
The problem with FFXIV will be, upon release, it will be hailed as another boring WoW clone. Unimaginative. Uninnovative. etc.
Basically all the redeeming features of FFXIV will be the things it released with 2 years ago. Version 2.0 will just bring some functionality to the gameplay, but otherwise do nothing remotely interesting/innovative.
What S.E. fail to realise is that it shouldn't take 2 years to make a UI and add some quest hubs. And quiet frankly there are a lot of games released recently, and on the horizon, which have really shown consumers that they don't have to simply go around passively digesting these quest-grind MMOs, which is what Square have made a point of emphasising FFXIV will be, as though it's a good thing,
It didnt take them 2 years to make a ui and hub quest. They rebuilt the game from scratch, this is a entirely new game. I even heard they use a new engine.
Now this is simple, some will stay with a closed mentality about this game and others will try it for what is it. A new game.
The gameplay model is old. I never intend to play a quest-hub based game again. I really wanted to see FFXIV succeed, but not by propping up outdated mechanics.
As fan of Final Fantasy every fiber of my being wants to say "Yes it will be a great game reborn from the ashes like the pheonix rises to glory!", but like many posters I just am not sure they have done enough in this day and age of MMOs. I mean GW2 made many rethink what an MMO should be. Neverwinter is challenging the status quo. The Elder Scrolls Online will be another major contender in 2013. If FFXIV just puts a "Wow"esc appeal to their game it may not draw many back. SE has always done a great job with story telling and most FF fans will admit that is one major reason they play a FF game. I think they need to push the ideas on how to tell a story in an MMO setting that keeps the player active in the game. GW2 pushed the limits there and I believe Neverwinter and ES online will also. If FFXIV is to be noticed they need more than a revamped engine that plays like MMOs post WoW already do. They need something that jumps out at you. Most of what I have watched of the game play (including the 40min dev video) looks like other MMOs already out there.
Originally posted by Cyrael The gameplay model is old. I never intend to play a quest-hub based game again. I really wanted to see FFXIV succeed, but not by propping up outdated mechanics.
There are no such thing as outdated mechanics; only preferences and tastes. I mean just because it uses quest hubs(which I really don't believe are going away; no matter what a GW2 player says) does not mean it will be bad. Now if quest hubs are an outdated mechanic then so is quest text since we can have audio, and don't forget that we should just make walking an outdated mechanic since we can just teleport.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Can you fix a game that started out very broken? It is rather hard to convince people you have fixed things enough to make the game enjoyable. This is a classic example of why not to release a game before it is ready. Too many other games out there to make it worthwhile giving them a second chance.
Originally posted by Cyrael The gameplay model is old. I never intend to play a quest-hub based game again. I really wanted to see FFXIV succeed, but not by propping up outdated mechanics.
There are no such thing as outdated mechanics; only preferences and tastes. I mean just because it uses quest hubs(which I really don't believe are going away; no matter what a GW2 player says) does not mean it will be bad. Now if quest hubs are an outdated mechanic then so is quest text since we can have audio, and don't forget that we should just make walking an outdated mechanic since we can just teleport.
Agreed. The amount of overstatement coming out from GW2 players is really quite much. But, just like with TOR, which had a similar love-fest over it, the cracks are steadily beginning to show.
The game has just launched, what, a month ago or so? And they already want to crown it "genre changer". It might influence some ideas for other developers, just like other MMOs influenced ANet for GW2. Calling it a genre changer is extremely premature at this point.
The "no quest hub" system GW2 uses isn't all roses and rainbows either. Based on the substantial amount of complaints and issues I see mentioned about the whole DE thing - from big fans of the game, not just "haters", etc - ANet didn't strike gaming gold with that setup, either. It has its share of issues and limitations.. just like Quest Hubs do. Personally, I think there's room for both, "quest hub" type areas, as well as DEs. Taking it farther, I think there should be quests you can obtain by locating certain areas, or finding certain items, or killing certain mobs, or given by wandering NPCs, etc. There should be a variety of quest types provided in ways appropriate to how they're given.
That said, MikeB is putting out the same argument as so many others, about how "subs in 2013 may not be the wisest choice". He doesn't state it as fact, but the sentiment is there, and he does introduce it as being a "roadblock" for the game. So, it's pretty easy to see which way he leans on the topic. Regardless, it's not a forgone conclusion. It's not even a valid concern, so long as FFXIV - like other MMOs that remain sub-based - continue to do maintain a healthy enough player base.
I mean come on. FFXIV has had subs for several months now in its current state. FFXI continues to maintain a player-base, even with a subscription fee. Eve Online maintains a sub fee (their whole in-game system is optional), and a list of others. There is no "either/or" here. People keep insisting there's this dichotomy that exists that simply doesn't, nor need it.
Back when SE announced that subs would be reinstated for XIV, many said that "it would be the final nail in the coffin" for the game. That we would all hear the announcement of the game being taken offline shortly after because "subs are a failed, outdated model that no one will support anymore", blah blah. Some were quite smug and confident in their views, talking condescendingly to any who disagreed.
So, SE reinstates subs, and what happens? FFXIV now has far more people playing it than it has at pretty much any other time in its service, save for maybe immediately after launch. It's a busy, active game. You can log in and find people in all cities, shouting for help, looking for groups, selling stuff, etc. You can see groups of people out doing quests, hunting NMs, gathering up for dungeon runs, etc. It's not uncommon to run into others out in the field doing their own thing. There's tons more stuff to do and it's nowhere near the whole "you have to do leves to level up 'cause that's the main type of content". Leves, quests, mob grinding (yes, people still enjoy doing that.. in 2012! Imagine that!) and a variety of other activities are all available for players now.
Of course, you have to be actually playing the game, payting attention to all that to notice. Then you have to be honest enough to convey an accurate state of the game to others, and not the dishonest and blatantly skewed version we see here a lot. I see a lot of comments from people who seem to think XIV is still stuck in the same state it was 2 years ago, as though it's still current. It still has its share of issues, as some issues simply can't be adequately fixed with the current setup (one of the main reasons 2.0/ARR is happening in the first place). But it's a far more playable and, dare I say it, fun MMO now than it was back then. For many people, not just me. Again, the level of activity in the game these days, despite the sub-fees, bears that out.
If this many people are willing to pay a sub fee for XIV, even in its current state, is anyone seriously prepared to predict that - should SE pull it off with 2.0 and not flub it again - that many more won't be willing to do the same?
It's about the player numbers, not the revenue model. Without enough people playing or using the cash shop in F2P or even B2P MMO, those games wouldn't last very long either. Just like subs, a cash shop only works if enough people are using it. Or, more specifically, if the alleged 10% who do pay, are spending enough to account for the 90% who aren't.
The fact - and I have no problem stating it as such, because it proves out time and again - is that people will and do pay a subscription for a game if they enjoy it enough and feel it's worth their time and money.
F2P+Cash Shop works for a certain type of game setup. B2P+Cash Shop works for another type of game setup. P2P works for a certain type of game setup. P2P+Cash Shop works, I suppose, but in my opinion, shouldn't exist as it dips quite gratuitously into the "greed" category. A new revenue model is a new alternative. A new option for developers to consider and choose based on the kind of game they're making and the way they want to deliver that content to their players.
It's one thing to have predicted that F2P would be "the death of P2P" back when it first took hold in the Western Market, because no one really knew at that point just how pervasive it would be. Well, it found its niche in the Western Market, and that niche is typically MMOs that launched with a sub, but failed to gather enough interest to keep the game running. Going F2P is a last-ditch effort for them to keep the game going, rather than taking it offline completely.
It's a life-raft, or "second life" for MMOs that previously would have simply shut down like many have done. Not because "of their revenue model", but because they simply weren't good enough games to enough people.
B2P is another model, although the Cash Shop really puts it closer to a F2P+Cash Shop model than it does to a purely "buy once, play forever" one. ANet didn't implement that cash shop for the hell of it, just "for the off-chance that someone might want to buy stuff from it". They implemented it because it's been proven that cash shops work, when stocked with the right kinds of items that players have shown an interest in. Are the items "mandatory"? No. Are they items that have proven to be popular and consistently good sellers among players? Yes.
The people arguing that all MMOs will go F2P, or B2P, that it's "the future" and that Subs are a thing of the past need to stop trying to live out the dreams in their heads and start paying more attention to the reality happening all around them. Subs are just fine. They might not work for "you", but they certain work for others.
Originally posted by Cyrael The gameplay model is old. I never intend to play a quest-hub based game again. I really wanted to see FFXIV succeed, but not by propping up outdated mechanics.
There are no such thing as outdated mechanics; only preferences and tastes. I mean just because it uses quest hubs(which I really don't believe are going away; no matter what a GW2 player says) does not mean it will be bad. Now if quest hubs are an outdated mechanic then so is quest text since we can have audio, and don't forget that we should just make walking an outdated mechanic since we can just teleport.
Agreed. The amount of overstatement coming out from GW2 players is really quite much. But, just like with TOR, which had a similar love-fest over it, the cracks are steadily beginning to show.
The game has just launched, what, a month ago or so? And they already want to crown it "genre changer". It might influence some ideas for other developers, just like other MMOs influenced ANet for GW2. Calling it a genre changer is extremely premature at this point.
The "no quest hub" system GW2 uses isn't all roses and rainbows either. Based on the substantial amount of complaints and issues I see mentioned about the whole DE thing - from big fans of the game, not just "haters", etc - ANet didn't strike gaming gold with that setup, either. It has its share of issues and limitations.. just like Quest Hubs do. Personally, I think there's room for both, "quest hub" type areas, as well as DEs. Taking it farther, I think there should be quests you can obtain by locating certain areas, or finding certain items, or killing certain mobs, or given by wandering NPCs, etc. There should be a variety of quest types provided in ways appropriate to how they're given.
Note that nowhere in my post did I mention GW2. While it does fall into the "no quest hubs" category, it wasn't the first, nor will it be the last. The first MMORPG I ever played, City of Heroes, had no quest hubs to speak of. Just tiers of contacts, though they did lead you through zones in a similar way. None of the games I've played recently work on a quest hub system - that includes Wakfu, Eve Online, and yes, GW2.
While I don't think GW2's dynamic event system is The Game Changer, I do think developers are going to gravitate towards more dynamic content in a similar vein. If FFXIV had decided to model itself on one of these games, I feel the experience would have been better, especially given that levequests in their basic form were extremely well suited for this type of gameplay. But instead they chose the traditional path, in no small part due to the fact that Yoshi-P is a self-proclaimed WoW fan.
Which is probably just fine for many people. The thing about personal tastes is that everybody's is different, and it also tends to change over time. But as someone who's spent years like myself playing games like Aion, LotRO, and WoW, that particular gameplay system is tired, done to death, and basically no longer fun.
@Presbytier By and large, games, both online and off, ARE moving towards audio-heavy, easily accessible systems. See Skyrim, GW2, TOR, TSW, etc for examples of this. I don't believe this is a passing fad, either.
Comments
The problem is no one ever complained about how amazing FF14 looked. Graphics had nothing to do with the games failures.
The question you asked. It's because people actually liked Darkfall.
goozmania writes:
I started rolling my eyes when you mentioned subscription models being bad, then again when you said quest hubs don't work.
Even though this article is supposed to be about FFXIV, anyone who's frequented this website can see it's really more of a GW2 fanboy post.
Yes because FF14 is doing so well. They say this about everygame on this site. They think everything should be free. They even used it to justify how horrible SWtoR was doing. It doesn't have anything to do with GW2 regardless how jelous you are of that game.
I think they are still heading in the wrong direction. I loved FF up to 10 when it was horrible and missing half of the content most FF games had up until then. FF12 tried to bring it back but lost their way with 13+.
I've been reading up on it and it makes me sad everytime. They said they were adding new races but all they did was use high res versions of FF11 and then doubled them by making them black. They said they were doing new graphics then did a press release saying the reason for it is because the version of crystal tolls wouldn't work on the ps3 port. They said they were adding jump and removing boundries but the corridors are still locked into place. I'm hoping they make A FF15 and return to their old ways before they decided to ruin the series.
This is what you can read on the New FINAL FANTASY XIV Outline file.
September to October 2012 –Begin distribution of version 2.0 software for PC
-Begin distribution of PlayStation®3 system beta version
?October to November 2012 –Reinstate limited free trial period for PC version
-Commence PlayStation®3 system closed beta test
?Post-January 2013 –Version 2.0 client (PC and PlayStation®3 system) goes on sale
-Free trial period ends
so i guest we will have a free trial.
The one thing FF14 had going for it was its sandboxy nature. You had the economy driven completely by players. You had an interesting hybrid class/skill based advancement system. You had a large world. You had open world dungeons. Other than some "main scenario" quests, player's weren't told where to go and how to enjoy the game.
Sounds great on paper. And for a LONG time, I was able to look past a lot of the issues and enjoy the game. Simply put, the game was bogged down with so many issues and it felt very much like a work in progress. For the most part, things worked, but the entirety of the game didn't gel together.
The current dev team has made huge in-roads into making a fun, engaging game. However, their direction does point to a "WoW" model. I do believe FF:ARR will be great for what it is. However, I do fear that its "sandbox" roots will slowly dissappear.
I remember trying out the game.
I also remember a mage giving me 25++++ levels from abusing 1 of the MANY bugs/exploits in the game that Square Enix didn't care about whatsoever..
Was just a mess and nobody cared/adressed anything..
Oh look, a completely CG trailer. That's totally the best way to show off a new and improved version of the thing people hated most, THE FRIGGIN GAMEPLAY.
Not that it wasn't pretty, SQE certainly knows how to make a nice cinematic. Honestly they should just stick to making movies. WTB FFX version of Advent Children.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
"all looks promising. Honestly, the game is looking pretty slick."
Lol.. Where have you been?
Everything SE are doing with FFXIV is archaic and an not even remotely innovative. They intend to add a quest-based progression system into a game where you level multiple classes... in other words the quests will be mass-produced drivel which nobody will enjoy.
It's a recipe for disaster.
Besides adding shadows to the engine, theyve actually downgraded a lot of the textures. The only redeeming features left are things which were introduced in the initial launch, such as the robust crafting system and detailed character models (which are also getting downgraded).
I was one of those very disappointed. At least as much as I loved console incarnations.
But this video looks very very promising and I guess will for sure try. No matter how much mad i was about them, being sure will never ever return to SE.
For the sub I have no problems if game will be good. I'm big fan of sub model. :-)) I would never expect somebody working for free and only real way to get money back AND being motivated to invest more and more time and man power and hadrware is sub model. I hate actually cash shops as usually one pay more money for crappy game with "free" model than would get for full game with sub. But sure there are games not worth even playing, not free not sub. And there are those that could never exist as sub based, i.e. GW1. On the other side, GW2 is so far ONLY and unique suprise in high quality for P2P game. Ok, have cash shops, have spent there 30€ so far, ... but nothing that one would REALLY need. I only wonder how much man power and money will be they willing to invest after this money have been used and when people will have purchased all that was possible from shops.
Square stated along time ago that as long as you have a character in the system, even if dormant, you will be able to download ARR free of charge. There is your invite.
You're joking right? There are already gameplay videos on youtube.
I started on this game back at pre-launch and play it for a bit after every update before returning to other titles. There really isn't anything posted above that isn't true. The game at release was a abject failure. Initially having to search through endless retainers, lack of mail system, extremely high delays in menu, NPC, and battle command interface, etc., etc. I also can't leave out the high system requirements that at the time of launch alienated a large portion of the potential fan base. To date, some of those items they have remedied and some are still a point of aggrevation.
While anyone who has played this game to this point has a right to be disappointed and highly skeptical, I would preach patience for the upcoming version. There has been enough progress to this point to have some guarded optimism that they can make this a game worthy of our time and more importantly money. The beta version will be here soon enough and we will get to make our own impressions from the work in progress. My particular concern for the relaunch isn't the aim of their goals for the features that they plan on implementing but more the timeline that they are holding to. I simply do not think they will have everything that would be necessary to make a "A" title completed by the intended launch timeframe.
One thing I hope that the development team and those making the financial decisions realize is that the MMO landscape has drastically changed in the past two years. At the FFXIV release, MMO options were increasing but still fairly limited where most options were subscription based. The market is now saturated and FTP is more prevalent than not. The FF brand name and PS3 availability will help get gamers in the door but the subscription system may lead many to choose other options.
The landscape has changed in terms of gameplay expectations, but subsciption games have not gone out of fashion. Players are more than willing to pay for a good game. There are millions and millions of subscription-payers in the MMO marketplace, and most people who can afford a computer to run FFXIV can commit the money to pay a monthly.
Subscription model is least of FFXIV's worries.
The problem with FFXIV will be, upon release, it will be hailed as another boring WoW clone. Unimaginative. Uninnovative. etc.
Basically all the redeeming features of FFXIV will be the things it released with 2 years ago. Version 2.0 will just bring some functionality to the gameplay, but otherwise do nothing remotely interesting/innovative.
What S.E. fail to realise is that it shouldn't take 2 years to make a UI and add some quest hubs. And quiet frankly there are a lot of games released recently, and on the horizon, which have really shown consumers that they don't have to simply go around passively digesting these quest-grind MMOs, which is what Square have made a point of emphasising FFXIV will be, as though it's a good thing,
It didnt take them 2 years to make a ui and hub quest. They rebuilt the game from scratch, this is a entirely new game. I even heard they use a new engine.
Now this is simple, some will stay with a closed mentality about this game and others will try it for what is it. A new game.
We will see the result.
There are no such thing as outdated mechanics; only preferences and tastes. I mean just because it uses quest hubs(which I really don't believe are going away; no matter what a GW2 player says) does not mean it will be bad. Now if quest hubs are an outdated mechanic then so is quest text since we can have audio, and don't forget that we should just make walking an outdated mechanic since we can just teleport.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Agreed. The amount of overstatement coming out from GW2 players is really quite much. But, just like with TOR, which had a similar love-fest over it, the cracks are steadily beginning to show.
The game has just launched, what, a month ago or so? And they already want to crown it "genre changer". It might influence some ideas for other developers, just like other MMOs influenced ANet for GW2. Calling it a genre changer is extremely premature at this point.
The "no quest hub" system GW2 uses isn't all roses and rainbows either. Based on the substantial amount of complaints and issues I see mentioned about the whole DE thing - from big fans of the game, not just "haters", etc - ANet didn't strike gaming gold with that setup, either. It has its share of issues and limitations.. just like Quest Hubs do. Personally, I think there's room for both, "quest hub" type areas, as well as DEs. Taking it farther, I think there should be quests you can obtain by locating certain areas, or finding certain items, or killing certain mobs, or given by wandering NPCs, etc. There should be a variety of quest types provided in ways appropriate to how they're given.
That said, MikeB is putting out the same argument as so many others, about how "subs in 2013 may not be the wisest choice". He doesn't state it as fact, but the sentiment is there, and he does introduce it as being a "roadblock" for the game. So, it's pretty easy to see which way he leans on the topic. Regardless, it's not a forgone conclusion. It's not even a valid concern, so long as FFXIV - like other MMOs that remain sub-based - continue to do maintain a healthy enough player base.
I mean come on. FFXIV has had subs for several months now in its current state. FFXI continues to maintain a player-base, even with a subscription fee. Eve Online maintains a sub fee (their whole in-game system is optional), and a list of others. There is no "either/or" here. People keep insisting there's this dichotomy that exists that simply doesn't, nor need it.
Back when SE announced that subs would be reinstated for XIV, many said that "it would be the final nail in the coffin" for the game. That we would all hear the announcement of the game being taken offline shortly after because "subs are a failed, outdated model that no one will support anymore", blah blah. Some were quite smug and confident in their views, talking condescendingly to any who disagreed.
So, SE reinstates subs, and what happens? FFXIV now has far more people playing it than it has at pretty much any other time in its service, save for maybe immediately after launch. It's a busy, active game. You can log in and find people in all cities, shouting for help, looking for groups, selling stuff, etc. You can see groups of people out doing quests, hunting NMs, gathering up for dungeon runs, etc. It's not uncommon to run into others out in the field doing their own thing. There's tons more stuff to do and it's nowhere near the whole "you have to do leves to level up 'cause that's the main type of content". Leves, quests, mob grinding (yes, people still enjoy doing that.. in 2012! Imagine that!) and a variety of other activities are all available for players now.
Of course, you have to be actually playing the game, payting attention to all that to notice. Then you have to be honest enough to convey an accurate state of the game to others, and not the dishonest and blatantly skewed version we see here a lot. I see a lot of comments from people who seem to think XIV is still stuck in the same state it was 2 years ago, as though it's still current. It still has its share of issues, as some issues simply can't be adequately fixed with the current setup (one of the main reasons 2.0/ARR is happening in the first place). But it's a far more playable and, dare I say it, fun MMO now than it was back then. For many people, not just me. Again, the level of activity in the game these days, despite the sub-fees, bears that out.
If this many people are willing to pay a sub fee for XIV, even in its current state, is anyone seriously prepared to predict that - should SE pull it off with 2.0 and not flub it again - that many more won't be willing to do the same?
It's about the player numbers, not the revenue model. Without enough people playing or using the cash shop in F2P or even B2P MMO, those games wouldn't last very long either. Just like subs, a cash shop only works if enough people are using it. Or, more specifically, if the alleged 10% who do pay, are spending enough to account for the 90% who aren't.
The fact - and I have no problem stating it as such, because it proves out time and again - is that people will and do pay a subscription for a game if they enjoy it enough and feel it's worth their time and money.
F2P+Cash Shop works for a certain type of game setup. B2P+Cash Shop works for another type of game setup. P2P works for a certain type of game setup. P2P+Cash Shop works, I suppose, but in my opinion, shouldn't exist as it dips quite gratuitously into the "greed" category. A new revenue model is a new alternative. A new option for developers to consider and choose based on the kind of game they're making and the way they want to deliver that content to their players.
It's one thing to have predicted that F2P would be "the death of P2P" back when it first took hold in the Western Market, because no one really knew at that point just how pervasive it would be. Well, it found its niche in the Western Market, and that niche is typically MMOs that launched with a sub, but failed to gather enough interest to keep the game running. Going F2P is a last-ditch effort for them to keep the game going, rather than taking it offline completely.
It's a life-raft, or "second life" for MMOs that previously would have simply shut down like many have done. Not because "of their revenue model", but because they simply weren't good enough games to enough people.
B2P is another model, although the Cash Shop really puts it closer to a F2P+Cash Shop model than it does to a purely "buy once, play forever" one. ANet didn't implement that cash shop for the hell of it, just "for the off-chance that someone might want to buy stuff from it". They implemented it because it's been proven that cash shops work, when stocked with the right kinds of items that players have shown an interest in. Are the items "mandatory"? No. Are they items that have proven to be popular and consistently good sellers among players? Yes.
The people arguing that all MMOs will go F2P, or B2P, that it's "the future" and that Subs are a thing of the past need to stop trying to live out the dreams in their heads and start paying more attention to the reality happening all around them. Subs are just fine. They might not work for "you", but they certain work for others.
Note that nowhere in my post did I mention GW2. While it does fall into the "no quest hubs" category, it wasn't the first, nor will it be the last. The first MMORPG I ever played, City of Heroes, had no quest hubs to speak of. Just tiers of contacts, though they did lead you through zones in a similar way. None of the games I've played recently work on a quest hub system - that includes Wakfu, Eve Online, and yes, GW2.
While I don't think GW2's dynamic event system is The Game Changer, I do think developers are going to gravitate towards more dynamic content in a similar vein. If FFXIV had decided to model itself on one of these games, I feel the experience would have been better, especially given that levequests in their basic form were extremely well suited for this type of gameplay. But instead they chose the traditional path, in no small part due to the fact that Yoshi-P is a self-proclaimed WoW fan.
Which is probably just fine for many people. The thing about personal tastes is that everybody's is different, and it also tends to change over time. But as someone who's spent years like myself playing games like Aion, LotRO, and WoW, that particular gameplay system is tired, done to death, and basically no longer fun.
@Presbytier By and large, games, both online and off, ARE moving towards audio-heavy, easily accessible systems. See Skyrim, GW2, TOR, TSW, etc for examples of this. I don't believe this is a passing fad, either.