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SWTOR's great idea that games should be implementing

strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common

Lost in how disappointing the game was and how poorly this system was implemented, SWTOR really had an idea that any level based game should openly embrace:  the Legacy system.

 

But instead of focusing on the details of how SWTOR implemented it, lets call it for what it really is:  Account wide alternate advancement.  And this should be an MMORPG staple.

 

 

All level based games suffer from the max level syndrome.  Most games, once you hit max level, your character is 100% done with progression.  Then it turns into gear progression, which isnt improving your character at all beause once that gear is taken off the imporvement vanishes.  Its temporary improvement.

 

EQ was one of the few smart ones, it realized this issue and implemented AAs.  Problem is, and Rift with its watered down version of AAs has experienced this, is it makes people not want to play alts.  but account wide AAs?  Not only are you heling your main, you are helping your alt as well.

 

Now SWTOR chose the Legacy System to act differently, and a smart implementation of a non-character progression system can work for the right type of players.  RP types can have more options to unlock for housing for instance.  There always stuff like WoW's heirloom gear that can be tied to it for altaholics, or appearance gear.  The key thing is to give lots of choice so they can customize their account how they want to.

 

I hope more games jump on this idea.

 

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Comments

  • SaydienSaydien StuttgartPosts: 266Member

    While I do agree with your ideas to give people the chance for account-wide longterm advancement beyond and gear stuff I personally fail to see anything even close to a remotely decent implementation in TOR.

    Charging silly amounts of credits to unlock something and having most of the stuff be pointless beyond belief for me is reason enough to not give any credit for that here. Legacy in its current implementation for me is amongst the most pointless features ever.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Saydien

    While I do agree with your ideas to give people the chance for account-wide longterm advancement beyond and gear stuff I personally fail to see anything even close to a remotely decent implementation in TOR.

    Charging silly amounts of credits to unlock something and having most of the stuff be pointless beyond belief for me is reason enough to not give any credit for that here. Legacy in its current implementation for me is amongst the most pointless features ever.

    completely agree, sound theory-awful implementation

    I think thats why we havent seen something similar come up yet.  

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    Might have helped to link to this:  http://www.swtor.com/info/legacy  :for those that had no clue what you were talking about with the Legacy stuff.

    That being said, hrmm - perhaps for folks with altitis that enjoy their own form of grinding alts, this would definitely be something of interest to them...perhaps not.  It might hit up the folks in between though - those that were looking for something between the single toon grind and the grinding alts thing.

    In the end to me, though - it just reeks of there not being enough content - so here's another means to grind the same content.  It's the same poop wrapped in a different colored bow... might be a really pretty bow, but it's still wrapped around poop.

    That's just my opinion of course - I prefer continued playability to replayability - I've done my fair share of seeking medication and counseling for altitis as well as grinding carrots.

    Different folks - different strokes and all that; so I can see where some folks would definitely enjoy it in other games...but it's just not my thing.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • SuperDonkSuperDonk Vancouver, WAPosts: 781Member Common

    The legacy system was just one of the highlights on why SWTOR should of been released 6 months to a year after it did. Most players, like myself already had a couple of level 50's and multiple alts by the time it was rolled out, making it pretty much useless.

     

    SWTOR will be a case study for future developers on how not to ruin potentially good ideas and gameplay before the game even has a chance at success.

  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    Agree with OP. It's one of the better features of TOR, along with Crew Skills and item modification, Companions (FFXI did this as well but not nearly as well), and the storyline for each specific class instead of each race (I always hate how most MMO's pigeonhole your Rogue in the same storyline as your Paladin). The game is far from perfect, but it brought a lot of things to the table.
  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,548Member Uncommon

    Straying from the main subject some, I find something I like in every game I ever played and wish I could shove them all into one game.  Most of all I love the Auction House for Gold Sellers idea in PWI and Forsaken World.  No more Gold Sellers shouting in the streets and regular players can compete with them selling gold/money.  That impressed me more than anything a game has ever done.  Making a place for the Gold Sellers instead of treating them like criminals so they don't bother regular players.


  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member

    Can see where folks might have preferred to have had this implemented from the start - but I can also see where something like this would be added to attract new players and potentially give older players something more to do...

    It bothers me though, in the sense of messing with the space time continuum, so to speak.  That's a problem with any game where you run alts - but this kicks it up a notch where your one toon could be one of the parents of another toon.

    Also, in a quirky way, it's almost a single player form of guild advance, eh?

    Were it a lifepath sort of thing that you did before creating the character - were it something you could also unlock along the way - finding out things about the family that you did not know.... something that was shared by characters in that sense, rather than just another grind at the end... then I might have used less "..." and "-" in this post.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon

    As I understand SWTOR's legacy system, it's bonuses for alts that are only available to people who don't like to play alts.  If you like to play alts too much, you don't get the bonuses, because you need high level characters to unlock them.  Allowing new race/class combinations from the legacy system is particularly dumb, as it's additional character creation options that don't do you any good because they weren't available when you created your characters.

    Champions Online had the same problem with its alt bonuses.  If you have one high level character, you don't get the alt bonuses because you don't have alts.  And if you have many low level characters, then you don't get the alt bonuses because you don't have a high level character.  They seem to be designed as an incentive for people to rush to the level cap while skipping as much content as they can along the way, and then change their mind and create another character to go back and do the content that they previously wanted to skip.  That's a stupid thing to incentivise.

  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    As I understand SWTOR's legacy system, it's bonuses for alts that are only available to people who don't like to play alts.  If you like to play alts too much, you don't get the bonuses, because you need high level characters to unlock them. 

    Partly true. You unlock the Legacy system around level 30, or halfway through your first character which isn't too far IMO even for people who are altoholics. After that, no matter what level your other characters are, give you bonuses to it. Even if you spend the rest of your gametime playing characters 1-10, you're gonna unlock stuff.

    It can be unlocked with a single character as well. Even at 50, you gain Legacy XP if you do endgame activities and dailies. 

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    I hate sharing alternate advancement between characters.  This is one of the few changes TRION has made that I absolutely abhor.
  • stratasaurusstratasaurus Seattle, WAPosts: 220Member
    I have to agree some form of Account wide advancing should be part of every major MMO.  Alts are part of the MMO world now really almost noone just makes one main and calls it a day and some system to join that into the game is almost silly not to have and silly everyone has not thought about it and done it by now.
  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Brandon, FLPosts: 3,649Member
    Originally posted by stratasaurus
    I have to agree some form of Account wide advancing should be part of every major MMO.  Alts are part of the MMO world now really almost noone just makes one main and calls it a day and some system to join that into the game is almost silly not to have and silly everyone has not thought about it and done it by now.

    Unless your alts have absolutely nothing to do with one another... so if something were included, it should be something optional.  It's a difficult one with this, because one can see the potential RPG elements - but also - the min/max it's just a game, blah, blah, blah elements...meh.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member

    I would recommend the first legacy perk being faster leveling for alts...AFTER your first character reaches max level...AFTER the leveling curve has returned to a decently lengthy amount of time instead of the quick leveling we have now. I don't want to reach max level within weeks of release.

     

     

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Lost in how disappointing the game was and how poorly this system was implemented, SWTOR really had an idea that any level based game should openly embrace:  the Legacy system.

     

    But instead of focusing on the details of how SWTOR implemented it, lets call it for what it really is:  Account wide alternate advancement.  And this should be an MMORPG staple.

     

     

    All level based games suffer from the max level syndrome.  Most games, once you hit max level, your character is 100% done with progression.  Then it turns into gear progression, which isnt improving your character at all beause once that gear is taken off the imporvement vanishes.  Its temporary improvement.

     

    EQ was one of the few smart ones, it realized this issue and implemented AAs.  Problem is, and Rift with its watered down version of AAs has experienced this, is it makes people not want to play alts.  but account wide AAs?  Not only are you heling your main, you are helping your alt as well.

     

    Now SWTOR chose the Legacy System to act differently, and a smart implementation of a non-character progression system can work for the right type of players.  RP types can have more options to unlock for housing for instance.  There always stuff like WoW's heirloom gear that can be tied to it for altaholics, or appearance gear.  The key thing is to give lots of choice so they can customize their account how they want to.

     

    I hope more games jump on this idea.

     

    Ummm,, hey OP care to explain how the system works? 

    image

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    The legacy system was such a joke I already had 4 50's in place when we got that junk.  All it did was force you to grind more alts and the cost of the fluff stuff is crazy.

    No op this is not a great idea for other games to be had, in fact I can name 8 former guild members who when they saw the legacy system the rage quit.

     

  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    Originally posted by erictlewis

    The legacy system was such a joke I already had 4 50's in place when we got that junk.  All it did was force you to grind more alts and the cost of the fluff stuff is crazy.

    No op this is not a great idea for other games to be had, in fact I can name 8 former guild members who when they saw the legacy system the rage quit.

    Anyone that rage quits over a feature that doesn't hurt anyone shouldn't have been playing from the start, IMO. Doubt they could even stick to a game period and you could have still got Legacy perks for those max characters. Games add new content to lower levels all the time after launch, it's nothing detremental. 

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by erictlewis

    The legacy system was such a joke I already had 4 50's in place when we got that junk.  All it did was force you to grind more alts and the cost of the fluff stuff is crazy.

    No op this is not a great idea for other games to be had, in fact I can name 8 former guild members who when they saw the legacy system the rage quit.

     

    I don't think you even read the post....

     

  • DraronDraron A town in, KYPosts: 993Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Ummm,, hey OP care to explain how the system works? 

    Basically, you unlock Legacy about midway through your class story in a way that makes sense to unlock it then. From then on, all characters you play on that account will have that last name, or your Legacy name. You get a certain % of XP on top of what you usually earn but it goes towards your Legacy. You can spend Legacy XP to unlock the ability to play a race you leveled on the Empire side, for example, on the Republic as if your character inherited the features from your other character (you get to assign relations like Son, Apprentice, etc). You can get class specific moves (though it's mostly a fun-feature as you can only use them in non-endgame activites and very rarely) to use with classes you maxed. Besides that, you can unlock perks for your younger characters like unlocking mounts sooner or faster XP at certain activities.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Ummm,, hey OP care to explain how the system works? 

    You earn exp that goes to an account wide pool to unlock things.  Preferably EQ1 style AAs, but can be cosmetics and fluff too.   SWTOR's system, as Ive said and others have said, was an awful implementation of the idea.

     

    The whole point is so a) you are always earning experience towards something and b) if you play alts you dont have to spend the time on them too to unlock things you already got on your main

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Psychow

    I would recommend the first legacy perk being faster leveling for alts...AFTER your first character reaches max level...AFTER the leveling curve has returned to a decently lengthy amount of time instead of the quick leveling we have now. I don't want to reach max level within weeks of release.

    You're basically advocating that alt bonuses exist, but only be available to people who don't play alts.  I say that's crazy.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon
    CoH, Lotro, SWTOR and Vanguard have all come up with interesting ideas for PvE advancement after top level. But the MMO genre is strewn with good ideas that hardly get used again. I see no reason for that to suddenly change, you but hope mind you.
  • ChiramChiram Milwaukee, WIPosts: 643Member

    I would just like to point out... that while a system that rewards how long a person has been "playing" on the account is good... it's a double edged sword. This system that has been re-worded and used in previous MMOs can actually keep away new or long absent returning players. The "achiever" crowd frowns upon systems like this because in their mind, they don't want to be playing 2+ years just get what someone "now" has. 

     

    Me personally, I could care less but I have had friends I game with refuse to play MMOs that do this if they are new/returning players.

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthPosts: 2,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Saydien

    While I do agree with your ideas to give people the chance for account-wide longterm advancement beyond and gear stuff I personally fail to see anything even close to a remotely decent implementation in TOR.

    Charging silly amounts of credits to unlock something and having most of the stuff be pointless beyond belief for me is reason enough to not give any credit for that here. Legacy in its current implementation for me is amongst the most pointless features ever.

    Sadly I have to agree with this too...

    The extra presence for companions is very nice, and the Legacy (Heroic Moment) powers are pretty cool too, but the rest is mediocre at best, the improved speeder license is alright too.

    The various teleports would have been alright, if they didn't mess it up by having all of them share the fleet pass timer >.<

    That being said, the idea is sound, and an AA system should mostly stick to cosmetic stuff and non-critical PvE bonuses.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthPosts: 2,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jemcrystal

    Straying from the main subject some, I find something I like in every game I ever played and wish I could shove them all into one game.  Most of all I love the Auction House for Gold Sellers idea in PWI and Forsaken World.  No more Gold Sellers shouting in the streets and regular players can compete with them selling gold/money.  That impressed me more than anything a game has ever done.  Making a place for the Gold Sellers instead of treating them like criminals so they don't bother regular players.

    Someone else has probably pointed this out by now, but just in case they haven't (and so I don't forget later :p), Guild Wars 2 has implemented it as well.

    You can buy and sell the store currency (Gems) through their AH, the perfect solution for those players with little time, but a lot of money that usually buy from RMTs, now they can buy from players with tons of time, but no money!

    A brilliant solution IMO that frees up the company resources that normally would be occupied by fighting off/banning goldspammers.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  • LoverNoFighterLoverNoFighter Star CItyPosts: 294Member
    They could implement the SWG pre cu features.
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