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I think a lot of newer games aren't demanding enough of their players to force improvement.
Some people never improve because they can reach the end of the game doing menial and simple stuff and are suddenly the burden of those who put some more time into planning than grinding.
In premade there is less need for it because it has already been said.
In a pug people rarely talk. Communication is key in all groups. I also think people are some what overly sensative and that makes gamers overly worried aboiut waying the wrong thing or being viewed as a DB. Few people want to argue in a game so it is easier to just drop group if it does not go well.
I have a 9 year old nephew who plays team-based pvp all the time.
Yes, he is NINE YEARS OLD. He always ask me to team up with him and ask me to do what he always does; fool around the map doing random things. He doesn't care about the outcome of the game. He runs in with the rest of the group just because he feels like it. He doesn't care about the rules of the game. He just want to play the game the way he wants to. There was a time when we were playing BlackOps and he got himself a hold of a camera. He spent the whole match in front of the camera like he's making a video commentary just talking about all sorts of stuff. I spent the whole match doing /facepalms.
Now imagine how many other nine year olds, or older people who do things the way he does, are there playing MMOs. Most of them have the patience of... well, nine-year olds. I druid-bear-tank a heroic in WotLK Icecrown Citadel 5man once just backpedalling and Swiping the whole instance and told myself, "this is a cakewalk for my nephew." I did the same heroic and asked my nephew to get on the controls. All he did was explore the map and run around aggroing a good chunk of the instance leaving the other members of the team to die. He did use the chat to say "Hi! Where are you from?"
Originally posted by bunnyhopper But taking that aside, why do we so often see PUG groups where even the most common sense basics are such a freak occurrence that they are enough to make you gasp in amazement? So what exactly is going on? Why do we see people randomly wandering off? Why do we see people never using team synergy skills? Surely not everyone is specced solo dps? Just what is going on?
Good post. The answer is fairly simple, though.
The reason most PUGs are bad, is for a few reasons:
1) Whenever you are PUGing, you are engaging in a crapshoot. You are pooling the game population from the lowest common denominator. You aren't generally going to find top tier players in a PUG, because typically top tier players have their own guilds, or people they play with regularly and so they aren't part of that population most of the time.
2) When you are PUGing, someone needs to step up and be a leader. 9/10 people who PUG, are PUGing because they want to jump into difficult content quickly, without much hastle. This means that 9/10 times, the person who needs to step up and be a leader is typically YOU. I've found that by taking that responsibility into my own hands, I have much better results in my PUGs. When I get into bad PUGs, it's nearly always when I'm taking a backseat & just joining someone else's group, who turns out to not have a clue as to what they are doing.
By taking the responsibility into your own hands, you can ensure that people aren't idiots before engaging in a dungeon. If they can't answer simple questions like what their setup is, if they have certain utilities that might help the group, if they've done the dungeon before, etc. then they are probably not worth the effort. Generally I start out groups with the preface that people should take the first run slow, that I'll explain the fights ahead of time, and that people should help each other revive as quickly as possible; with the hint that if this run goes well, there is the potential to do multiple runs. Works pretty well most of the time.
It does suck that more people don't utilize basic common sense, such as reviving downed allies while they are still downed (as opposed to defeated), staying w/ the group, and paying attention to their surroundings; but the only way to guaruntee you have decent players is to make sure ahead of time yourself.
As the saying goes, if you want something done right, do it yourself.
Originally posted by Lissyl I think most of it is actually because each of them is convinced they are playing 'right' and everyone else is a PuG moron. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy created by each person knowing they are the good player and finding amusement in the 'antics' of the lessers, creating what is in reality 5 individuals each trying to make the others look bad.
That's probably true.
I also think most players who really want to succeed join an organized guild. Leaving the PUG's with players who either new to the game, loners or got booted from thier guild.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.-- Herman Melville
Why does it matter? You can just quit if you don't like the group.
I found automatic PUG is very useful. I belong to a pretty big guild, but still, you can't put a group together any time you want.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Why does it matter? You can just quit if you don't like the group. I found automatic PUG is very useful. I belong to a pretty big guild, but still, you can't put a group together any time you want.
No one suggested that they didn't server a useful purpose, the debate (which seems to have been and gone) was about why they are frequently so very, very bad.
Whether they actually matter or not, well that's down to the indivual player. They don't really matter to me as I am seldom in them, but the quality of them did intrigue me.
So far people have given plenty of viable and more than likely accurate reasons as to the randomness going on in them.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Disclaimer: The OP (to wit me) just got involved in a bad (is there any other kind) pug and is bitter and ranting about the whole experience (which was probably his fault anyway).
There you go, problem solved. Do you yell at them for being such total nubs?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by bunnyhopper Disclaimer: The OP (to wit me) just got involved in a bad (is there any other kind) pug and is bitter and ranting about the whole experience (which was probably his fault anyway).
Perhaps I should have just proclaimed outright that it couldn't possibly ever have been my fault as opposed to trying to inject a modicum of humour and humility into the post.... and no, I don't yell at "them".
A thread like this reminds me of when I play CS:GO casual mode (and often times when I play "competitive" mode). In casual mode I go in mostly to practice only using one single weapon that I'm weak at since there will be lots of enemies using good weapons against me. I also tend to play casual with no sound (which means I can't hear the footsteps) and I don't bother sneaking around to mask my own footsteps.
Very few people take the casual games the least bit serious but occasionally you get this guy in there who thinks it is the most serious thing in the world and what on earth is everyone doing. He ends up blowing up at somepoint and everyone just laughs.
At the end of the day it is a game, people play to have fun. Often times they don't care if they win or lose or whatever else. If you want to avoid this the only way is to join a guild who takes their game seriously and likes to group a lot. You should never expect anything out of a PUG ever, ever, ever.
Even in the competitive mode on CS:GO you will often get teamed up with people who don't know the game, the map, or who just can't aim. They end up 1 and 20 by the end of the game. The ridiculous people are those who get mad at the person or who vote to kick them out. It is a random group of people matched together, there are going to be people who flat out suck, but everyone should always understand that.
I belive it is 2 things that effects pugs one and probly the most is the payment mode of the game .
Anything that isnt sub based get a casual group of players that have no want or intention of learning how to play there class well. EQ used to be one of the hardist games out there which you had to group and if you wernt good at your class you were known and not given a group.But since it went to f2p the quality of pugs has got to a state that in that game i will only party with guys i know.
The secound reason i belive is the game it self take old WoW i found the pugs terrible everybody wanted to zerg and no thought for the role they played . Now i am not saying WoW is bad i played it for over 3 years but the pugs were very bad and that was because of the type of game it is (i maxed most class in that game solo and thats how the game was designed).
Nearly if not all mmos since WoW came out has that same easy mode solo zerg feel to it so why would they want to learn how to play the classes when there is no need to.
Not true,it is imo the culture and type of gamers.
For example ,before my friends made it into FFXI,i was grouping 90% of the time with Japan players.I was a noob,but they had TONS of patience with me [very respectful people]and their groups were just phenomenal.After i played with JPN players it made the entire game seem a lot easier to me.
I have had groups totally planned that were complete failures and turned me right off.It is becuase that group leader might have a totally different perspective on how to group and play the game,than i do,so no matter how organized he is,it can still end up a nightmare for me.
One of my biggest things abotu grouping,is i like a relaxed atmosphere,i don't like to be pushed or rushed just becuase yo uhave some XP/hr number you want to achieve.My ONLY purpose to playing is to have fun and no PUG be it oprganized or not can change my outlook on gaming.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by eddieg50 I think it depends on the game and the ages it attracts, F2p can also hurt pug. When I used to play City of Heroes the Pick up groups were excelllent, same thing with Shadowbane, but those games attracted an older more mature gamer, while games like WOW will attract younger gamers who do not want to read, do not care about the lore and just want to speed through everything and not stay with their team
This is basically what i was saying when i mentioned the culture and type of gamers.Thsi of course does not mean ALL kids are numbnuts when they play,it can vary from person to person.However a PATIENT type game that calls for organizing groups and might take some time to do it,will of course attract the more pleasant and patient player.
Solo games and games that are built around speed attract a less desirable type gamer.
Rapid leveling means players seldom have in depth knowledge of their characters and feel no investment in getting better.
Lack of penalties for being bad, minimal if any coin and exp loss.
Instances preserve progress, respawns would make chain zerging mobs and bosses impractical at best.
Complete and utter lack of patience, "Gimme my reward! I've been here 5 whole minutes now! WAHHHH!" So speed runs to the loot is all most care about.
Games moving away from community based. Reputation means little to nothing, need to Group/Guild for content is minimal at best. (ie. GW2 where a quick mob tag is all that matters)
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
A simple lack of communication?