Originally posted by GolbezTheLion Originally posted by Sciva Originally posted by GolbezTheLion And they will all be cleared within the first month after opening....
That is so sad, this game is a hollow shell of what it once was.
No challenge at all.
So because one of the best raid guilds on the planet cleared the normal version of the first wing of T14, something which they practiced on the PTR for months...the game is a former shell of itself?
Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this always been the case with all normal mode raids...like...ever?
Heroic mode (the content made for raiders) hasn't opened yet, isn't it a little too early to complain about the game being too easy? lol
only 1% of the player base got any progression in naxxramas during vanilla. Also in bc it took weeks till the first raid boss was downed, and months (6) until keal thas was downed in TK, he went down after blizzard pushed players to do him by releasing the black temple before anyone in the world downed him. Then you have illidan as another hard fight, only for the expansion to be finished off with kil jaiden, who may very well have the hardest raid ever released. Then wrath was nerfed a lot, but still presented some challange. Then cata came and went as a complete joke.
In vanilla, people were actually subbing to the game regularly, going through the level up, doing other stuff besides raiding. Now that the population is declining and new players are rare, all that's left are (self-censor) who want to raid, so it's no surprise that a lot more of the current population clears dungeons. It has nothing to do with challenge really.
Maybe the game is 'easier' now, who knows, and more importantly, who cares? There's a reason why so few cleared these things when WoW was actually growing. Want to talk about being carried? When 90% of sub revenue after overhead and service costs goes to content that less than 10% experience, THAT'S having other people carry you.
That is so sad, this game is a hollow shell of what it once was.
No challenge at all.
So because one of the best raid guilds on the planet cleared the normal version of the first wing of T14, something which they practiced on the PTR for months...the game is a former shell of itself?
Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this always been the case with all normal mode raids...like...ever?
Heroic mode (the content made for raiders) hasn't opened yet, isn't it a little too early to complain about the game being too easy? lol
It's too bad they put those raids up on the PTR for so long. I understand why they do it, but it trivializes the content when it's released.
And they will all be cleared within the first month after opening....
as long as the dungeon is still open by the time I get there in about three months time.
If your leveling a character you can should be there a lot sooner than three months even if you only play a couple hours a day . These days just do the raids via a dungeon finder you ll be max level in no time at all . Its just a matter of then getting the gear you need thats pretty easy these days too .
Although to be honest the only really fun way of leveling now is doing pvp bgs . Its slower but it offers some challenge .
You pretty muched confirmed my point with your sarcasm....there was only 1 mode in vanilla, which was =/- Heroic mode today. Wow introduced "heroic modes" in Wotlk, and believe me, normal modes were being cleared by top guilds in the world immeditly....that doesnt mean "content was dumbed down", it means there was a new, easier verion of the content, made for more casual players, that dropped crapier loot etc. It still took most, even world first guilds, months to progress though heroic modes (again, which is the targeted raiding for Raiders).
Just because Blizzard added an easier version of each raid, doesnt mean there is no challenge.....you are basically saying any game ever released is too easy, because you chose "easy" from the menu, instead of Hard.
Thats why Blizz managed to stay 9+ million strong almost a decade after release, there is conent for everybody, those who want easy quick fun (LFR/Normal), and those that want hardcore beat your head on your keyboard raiding (Heroic).
I disagree entirely, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
I fail to understand what there is to disagree with in his post. Everything he stated is true???????????
You seriously read that and don't find an inherent contradiction from the phrase in red?
The quote "content was dumbed down" can mean two things:
1.) Difficulty was decreased across the board. All accessible content is now made easier.
2.) An easier version of the same content (i.e. dungeon) was made, but the harder version is still available.
I think the part in red means (1)...a sweeping generalisation about the game's content. But it's still being argued that even the hardcore versions of new raids are still Vanilla easy mode..there's no 40-man anymore afterall.
If you dont practice raids on PTR or follow encounter guides or videos then WoW raids are just as difficult. That fact aside the average guild will still take months to complete this raid.
That is so sad, this game is a hollow shell of what it once was.
No challenge at all.
Big shock here. Somebody doesn't know what they are talking about. *Gasp*
The truth is only a very small % will down the raid easily. In fact, most of the player base never will.
I'm an ex member of Vis Maior from Bonechewer, I probably know more about this game than you or anyone you associate with ever will.
There was a very clear reason why we called it quits to raiding in this game, and it wasn't because it was too hard. Do a google and see what we accomplished during our time in WoW, we were responsible for numerous world firsts and noteworthy accomplishments, all back when they actually meant something.
[mod edit]
You make a blanket statement about me "not knowing what I am talking about".
I refute your statement by explaining some background on myself and things I was part of when I played, lending credibility to myself as an experienced raider who was very involved in the competitive vanilla raiding scene.
And you respond with a bitter, spite laced retort that basically calls me a "no lifer".
Thanks for proving my point completely...
It always amazes me that someone can comment so readily on an expansion they haven't played. No, you don't know more about WoW than most, and playing since Vanilla does not provide any credible evidence to the contrary. Heck, I've been playing WoW since I was invited into it's closed beta, and on into it's open beta thereafter. It does not mean that I know the simplest of rotations for each and every class after a new expansion has been released. Nor does it indicate that I have any qualifications to say that the challenge has been taken out of World of Warcraft. In fact, only two Challenge modes have been cleared up to this date by a hand full of people, out of a current total of nine different types.
It's almost like hitting your head against the wall in Ahn'Qiraj, though with far less wipes and much more people trying to exploit the system to actually beat it. Yet you have the audacity to dictate what is or isn't to people who still play the game simply because you found it starting to become too easy in the past?
The raids today are well practiced, especially the first ones in an expansion due to months and months of exposure in testing the mechanics. These people oft submitted ideas to practically create the mechanics before running them on live servers with the game's release. There was no such advantage during Vanilla, as the game was relatively new and most people didn't even know you could raid much less how to beat a normal instance with 10 players just to get the Baron to drop his pants.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
That is so sad, this game is a hollow shell of what it once was.
No challenge at all.
Big shock here. Somebody doesn't know what they are talking about. *Gasp*
The truth is only a very small % will down the raid easily. In fact, most of the player base never will.
Becuase they don't TRY to. If people tried, I'd bet a good portion would, particularly with gear behind them. Rift for example with hammerknell had actual competition with top guilds and it took some time before they took it down. WoW use to be the same way but now raids are just a huge joke.
You don't seem to know WHY raids can be fun. Its not randomly going together with 20 people and downing a joke dungeon, its about being able to work your way through and ultimately complete a raid fully. Its such a satisfying feeling that dumbed down wow raids just lack completely now.
You don't seem to know WHY raids can be fun. Its not randomly going together with 20 people and downing a joke dungeon, its about being able to work your way through and ultimately complete a raid fully. Its such a satisfying feeling that dumbed down wow raids just lack completely now.
Hell no.
WOW pve just got fun for the casual gamer....no more a "join our guild but you HAVE to be there 6d/week from 6pm-midnight...miss 2 raids and you will be kicked.....whipe---> emoooooooraaaaaaaaaaaaage aaarrrrhhhh!!!!!!" experience.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
You don't seem to know WHY raids can be fun. Its not randomly going together with 20 people and downing a joke dungeon, its about being able to work your way through and ultimately complete a raid fully. Its such a satisfying feeling that dumbed down wow raids just lack completely now.
Hell no.
WOW pve just got fun for the casual gamer....no more a "join our guild but you HAVE to be there 6d/week from 6pm-midnight...miss 2 raids and you will be kicked.....whipe---> emoooooooraaaaaaaaaaaaage aaarrrrhhhh!!!!!!" experience.
As a casual gamer with lots of free time i find both of the examples equally bad. Harsh schedules made me stay away from raiding altogether while these new easymode, "everyone plays" dungeons are boring and uninterested.
Too guilds in the world? Ha! In WoW servers maybe but world?? Shit my old guild celestial champions raided eq like crazy and that was with 400 man raids and we were first on afew things on our server , we also raided daoc , eq2 , horizons, swg, and afew others including wow and wow was by far the easiest heroics you call them, we called them easy mode, it was a joke in vanilla and still is, so I would love to see these " worlds best " guilds lol do that in true hardcore mmorpgs enough said
You don't seem to know WHY raids can be fun. Its not randomly going together with 20 people and downing a joke dungeon, its about being able to work your way through and ultimately complete a raid fully. Its such a satisfying feeling that dumbed down wow raids just lack completely now.
Hell no.
WOW pve just got fun for the casual gamer....no more a "join our guild but you HAVE to be there 6d/week from 6pm-midnight...miss 2 raids and you will be kicked.....whipe---> emoooooooraaaaaaaaaaaaage aaarrrrhhhh!!!!!!" experience.
Making a raid accessable doesn't mean that it needs to be insultingly easy to the playerbase. Yeah, you get some folks who just want to waltz in, get their purples because they feel entitled just because they pay a sub fee. Yet some people genuinely want to have a challenge no matter if they raid 1 days a week or 6.
I'm a casual raider. Being one and knowing many like myself, a lot of you heroic raiders have shown yourselves to be ignorant of our game behaviors. Yes normal can be challenging to us (depends on the encounter). Now hold on before any of you start slinging insults. I'm one of the few casuals in my raiding community that does research because I'm well aware that I will be willfully carrying most of my casual friends who come unprepared, and let's face it, less skilled. So some of our hurdles are tackling content even with that mage that still only manages 9k. Many of us still manage to see all the normal raiding content outside of LFR even though we only raid 9 hours a week with hardstops. Considerably less than hardcore raiders.
I'm looking forward to the new raid. Our guild got to dip our toes in heroic Cataclysm which for us was satisfying as we never have done so since tbc and on. We didn't even raid vanilla and I agree with adam_nox's assessment as to why raids only seem less challenging. I'll be in MoP raiding in a month or so and I won't feel any less accomplished for it no matter how many people have been there before me. And no roo67, I am not taking any recommendations on 'How2LvLFast'. I'm rather enjoying my pace while questing (and actually reading the quests) while discovering the new lore. I'm just not in such a hurry. So I will see you all at the finish line when I finally come strolling across it.
And in case it was not obvious: I completely disagree with GolbezTheLion.
Comments
try today http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2947-Tanking-Hotfixes-Patch-5-0-5-Hotfixes-Season-12-MMR-Change
That is so sad, this game is a hollow shell of what it once was.
No challenge at all.
So because one of the best raid guilds on the planet cleared the normal version of the first wing of T14, something which they practiced on the PTR for months...the game is a former shell of itself?
Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't this always been the case with all normal mode raids...like...ever?
Heroic mode (the content made for raiders) hasn't opened yet, isn't it a little too early to complain about the game being too easy? lol
only 1% of the player base got any progression in naxxramas during vanilla. Also in bc it took weeks till the first raid boss was downed, and months (6) until keal thas was downed in TK, he went down after blizzard pushed players to do him by releasing the black temple before anyone in the world downed him. Then you have illidan as another hard fight, only for the expansion to be finished off with kil jaiden, who may very well have the hardest raid ever released. Then wrath was nerfed a lot, but still presented some challange. Then cata came and went as a complete joke.In vanilla, people were actually subbing to the game regularly, going through the level up, doing other stuff besides raiding. Now that the population is declining and new players are rare, all that's left are (self-censor) who want to raid, so it's no surprise that a lot more of the current population clears dungeons. It has nothing to do with challenge really.
Maybe the game is 'easier' now, who knows, and more importantly, who cares? There's a reason why so few cleared these things when WoW was actually growing. Want to talk about being carried? When 90% of sub revenue after overhead and service costs goes to content that less than 10% experience, THAT'S having other people carry you.
It's too bad they put those raids up on the PTR for so long. I understand why they do it, but it trivializes the content when it's released.
If your leveling a character you can should be there a lot sooner than three months even if you only play a couple hours a day . These days just do the raids via a dungeon finder you ll be max level in no time at all . Its just a matter of then getting the gear you need thats pretty easy these days too .
Although to be honest the only really fun way of leveling now is doing pvp bgs . Its slower but it offers some challenge .
The quote "content was dumbed down" can mean two things:
1.) Difficulty was decreased across the board. All accessible content is now made easier.
2.) An easier version of the same content (i.e. dungeon) was made, but the harder version is still available.
I think the part in red means (1)...a sweeping generalisation about the game's content. But it's still being argued that even the hardcore versions of new raids are still Vanilla easy mode..there's no 40-man anymore afterall.
It always amazes me that someone can comment so readily on an expansion they haven't played. No, you don't know more about WoW than most, and playing since Vanilla does not provide any credible evidence to the contrary. Heck, I've been playing WoW since I was invited into it's closed beta, and on into it's open beta thereafter. It does not mean that I know the simplest of rotations for each and every class after a new expansion has been released. Nor does it indicate that I have any qualifications to say that the challenge has been taken out of World of Warcraft. In fact, only two Challenge modes have been cleared up to this date by a hand full of people, out of a current total of nine different types.
It's almost like hitting your head against the wall in Ahn'Qiraj, though with far less wipes and much more people trying to exploit the system to actually beat it. Yet you have the audacity to dictate what is or isn't to people who still play the game simply because you found it starting to become too easy in the past?
The raids today are well practiced, especially the first ones in an expansion due to months and months of exposure in testing the mechanics. These people oft submitted ideas to practically create the mechanics before running them on live servers with the game's release. There was no such advantage during Vanilla, as the game was relatively new and most people didn't even know you could raid much less how to beat a normal instance with 10 players just to get the Baron to drop his pants.
Becuase they don't TRY to. If people tried, I'd bet a good portion would, particularly with gear behind them. Rift for example with hammerknell had actual competition with top guilds and it took some time before they took it down. WoW use to be the same way but now raids are just a huge joke.
You don't seem to know WHY raids can be fun. Its not randomly going together with 20 people and downing a joke dungeon, its about being able to work your way through and ultimately complete a raid fully. Its such a satisfying feeling that dumbed down wow raids just lack completely now.
Hell no.
WOW pve just got fun for the casual gamer....no more a "join our guild but you HAVE to be there 6d/week from 6pm-midnight...miss 2 raids and you will be kicked.....whipe---> emoooooooraaaaaaaaaaaaage aaarrrrhhhh!!!!!!" experience.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
As a casual gamer with lots of free time i find both of the examples equally bad. Harsh schedules made me stay away from raiding altogether while these new easymode, "everyone plays" dungeons are boring and uninterested.
In WoW servers maybe but world?? Shit my old guild celestial champions raided eq like crazy and that was with 400 man raids and we were first on afew things on our server , we also raided daoc , eq2 , horizons, swg, and afew others including wow and wow was by far the easiest heroics you call them, we called them easy mode, it was a joke in vanilla and still is, so I would love to see these " worlds best " guilds lol do that in true hardcore mmorpgs enough said
Making a raid accessable doesn't mean that it needs to be insultingly easy to the playerbase. Yeah, you get some folks who just want to waltz in, get their purples because they feel entitled just because they pay a sub fee. Yet some people genuinely want to have a challenge no matter if they raid 1 days a week or 6.
I'm looking forward to the new raid. Our guild got to dip our toes in heroic Cataclysm which for us was satisfying as we never have done so since tbc and on. We didn't even raid vanilla and I agree with adam_nox's assessment as to why raids only seem less challenging. I'll be in MoP raiding in a month or so and I won't feel any less accomplished for it no matter how many people have been there before me. And no roo67, I am not taking any recommendations on 'How2LvLFast'. I'm rather enjoying my pace while questing (and actually reading the quests) while discovering the new lore. I'm just not in such a hurry. So I will see you all at the finish line when I finally come strolling across it.
And in case it was not obvious: I completely disagree with GolbezTheLion.