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How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 2

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Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,987Member Uncommon

    Can't say I'd play on a permadeath server. so I guess I'm a naysayer.

    That said, for permadeath to really work I think a MMORPG needs to be designed around it, much as DAYZ is designed around it.

    Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

    IMO, a defining characteristic of a MMORPG is character progression.  Permadeath really removes this mechanic entirely, changing the game to something entirely different.

    For one thing, you would have to play very, very carefully.  I never liked how having a "no die" acheivement in a MMO like LOTRO changed the behavior of other players, who literally would drop group if they felt it might jeapordize their title that they were striving for.

    I'm all for reasaonable risk vs reward mechanics, but losing all your progression seems nonsensical to me in a MMORPG setting.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

    The part that bugs me about perma-death is how many deaths you experience that are entirely beyond your control; internet interruptions, something that FPS games are not subject to.  I died twice yesterday--yes, in PVE--just due to freezing in front of an already-aggroed mob that ate my face before I could even sign back in.

    That doesn't happen in single-player games.  It can't.  Your relatives never "drop in" for visits, phone never rings, sudden case of the trots, dinner's on fire, etc. etc.  I get no "quick save" button in the MMO world.

    Deaths I earned? Sure, I did something dumb.

    Deaths due to my ISP or other entirely random events?  Uh, no.  No, thank you. 

    Keep the idea in lag-proof single-player games, where actually it works.

     

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member

    Permadeath is a great concept that more accurately reflects the human condition. If people can lose everything, they will treat everything much more seriously than if they can lose it all.

    This is why people have no problem jumping off cliffs in MMORPGS or dying, because most have either no death penalty, or only a minor one that can easily be overcome with time (like XP loss).

    Losing everything makes you develop a stronger love for your success, and makes you far less reckless.

    This is a really interesting concept, because in real life, people don't typically do high-risk things that can easily kill you, as there is permadeath. I guess if in real life, people simply respawned (except maybe dying of old age), there'd be much more of a reckless atittude to life and death.

    It changes how people treat you, also. If you get a high level or good gear or lots of gold on a permadeath server, you are really seen as great. On a non-perma death server, these things mean nothing, as anyone can do them given sufficient time.

    Here, there is always the risk of losing it all, and I think that is great.

    I disagree with your concept, because I think that if you cannot just lose it all out-right, it loses its value.

     

     

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

    The part that bugs me about perma-death is how many deaths you experience that are entirely beyond your control; internet interruptions, something that FPS games are not subject to.  I died twice yesterday--yes, in PVE--just due to freezing in front of an already-aggroed mob that ate my face before I could even sign back in.

    That doesn't happen in single-player games.  It can't.  Your relatives never "drop in" for visits, phone never rings, sudden case of the trots, dinner's on fire, etc. etc.  I get no "quick save" button in the MMO world.

    Deaths I earned? Sure, I did something dumb.

    Deaths due to my ISP or other entirely random events?  Uh, no.  No, thank you. 

    Keep the idea in lag-proof single-player games, where actually it works.

     

    If your ISP or life is that unstable, then you simply wouldn't play on such a server.

    Your argument can easily be avoided by having stable servers, a decent internet connection, and reducing chaos in your life.

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Zipp_23
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Zipp_23

    There are games based on PD - like DayZ (not a game, just a mod.. I know) and it has its fans (I play it too, and I enjoy it)

    Also optional PD in D2/3 is a cool thing for me. Its a bigger challenge, you must play a different style (you kinda have to balance all your stats, you cant play just a pure "glass cannon" with no HP). I like it. BUT there is one big issue in D3 - your char CAN and most likely WILL sooner or later die coz of a lag spike or something like that. So IMO optional PD is a good thing, but not when you need to be constantly connected to net.

    Coz when you play HC char in D3, you kinda count with fact that your char will die. But loosing your char coz of a net connection can realy piss you off.

    One more comment about D3 HC char (note that i do NOT play HC). While it sounds like it is easy to die, there are many people make it to high level.

    I just check on diabloprogress.com. The highest person make it to paragon level 89. There seems to be a lot make it to at least L60.

    I suppose you have to play very very carefully.

    Yes, I agree that you have to play very carefully :) Also I think that it is possible to get your char to very high level. But you need a bit of luck too. I remember when there was a lag spike on US server (before patch with paragon levels) that actualy killed few thousands HC chars in a few seconds :D. I bet many keyboards were broken in the very same time :D

    No doubt. I am just saying it is possible. In fact, most good HC players probably take lag spikes into account. (For example, over-gear to kill just easy mobs who can't kill you in a million years).

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

    The part that bugs me about perma-death is how many deaths you experience that are entirely beyond your control; internet interruptions, something that FPS games are not subject to.  I died twice yesterday--yes, in PVE--just due to freezing in front of an already-aggroed mob that ate my face before I could even sign back in.

    That doesn't happen in single-player games.  It can't.  Your relatives never "drop in" for visits, phone never rings, sudden case of the trots, dinner's on fire, etc. etc.  I get no "quick save" button in the MMO world.

    Deaths I earned? Sure, I did something dumb.

    Deaths due to my ISP or other entirely random events?  Uh, no.  No, thank you. 

    Keep the idea in lag-proof single-player games, where actually it works.

     

    Sure, you won't play it. Sure i won't play it.

    But PD option is there. HC mode in D3. It is online. There is ISP/lag death. People still play it. So there are people who don't mind the risks.

    In fact, D3 is particularly unforgiving. You die, you can lose a LOT of time.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member

    Sure, have your permadeath server, I won't play on it at all.

    Simple solution.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by exdeathbr

    The lack of people on the permadeath server compared with the other one is not a problem. Also, in theory if this is a needed things to make the server exist (so, people not "ban" it), well thats the only thing that can be made.

    Also, if most players that join the permadeath server think they can handle it, but see they can't and they leave, this is not a problem. I mean in theory this is a good thing, at least they tried the game.

    In the real world, it is a problem.  Servers cost money.  A company is not going to keep a server running if hardly anyone uses it.  It will close the server and fold the characters into another, non-PD server.

    Face facts, there just aren't enough people in most games that favor PD that would make it a viable option.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon

    Its not so much against the perma-death feature.  Its the mechanics of it.  In many games I have died due to reason out of my control.  Game freeze, lag, control not responding.   Here I would be pissed if I perma-died because of that.

    Fix that (giving people options/opportunities to come back in those situations) and could be a better option.

    But overall someone is not going to want to play a game for six months and then have to start all over again (trudging the same content most likely) because their sprite died.  I understand you are going for realism but where is the fun in that?  

    To me games are meant to be played for relaxation and escapism.  I dont see perma-death anywhere in there...

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,987Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

    The part that bugs me about perma-death is how many deaths you experience that are entirely beyond your control; internet interruptions, something that FPS games are not subject to.  I died twice yesterday--yes, in PVE--just due to freezing in front of an already-aggroed mob that ate my face before I could even sign back in.

    That doesn't happen in single-player games.  It can't.  Your relatives never "drop in" for visits, phone never rings, sudden case of the trots, dinner's on fire, etc. etc.  I get no "quick save" button in the MMO world.

    Deaths I earned? Sure, I did something dumb.

    Deaths due to my ISP or other entirely random events?  Uh, no.  No, thank you. 

    Keep the idea in lag-proof single-player games, where actually it works.

     

    Sure, you won't play it. Sure i won't play it.

    But PD option is there. HC mode in D3. It is online. There is ISP/lag death. People still play it. So there are people who don't mind the risks.

    In fact, D3 is particularly unforgiving. You die, you can lose a LOT of time.

    Sort of like mountain climbing don't you think?  No real reason to do it, very good chance you'll die in the process, and accidents beyond one's control do happen.

    Yet people keep doing it.

    Just not me. image

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    What is actually stopping a player from deleting a character and starting over if their toon dies in any mmo?  Nothing, nothing at all. Therefore fans of permadeath can self initiate this if they choose.  The fact that others choose in the same game not to self delete after death should have no bearing on the matter, as there are many real life instances where my belief does not jibe with someones actions, yet their actions/inactions do not change my beliefs or invalidate them.

     

    As with any game mechanic, there is a place for permadeath as part of a particular game's design, just as there is a place in some games for housing or chat bubbles or any number of features or mechanics.  But at least with permadeath, any player can insitute self deletion, whereas I can not create housing or after creation character customization.  We all are constrained or limited by what games provide, and what developers feel the market supports.

     

    But what would the rationalization of permadeath be in a game where it inclusion is not very popular?  Realism?  Certainly not realism, a game set in a virtual realm is by definition not real.  Excitement?  Well, different people find different things exciting...or irritating for that matter.

     

    But let's take realism for a moment.  I had a friend who was bitten by a rattlesnake.  The poison didn't tick down on a timer and he was all better.  He went blind, his respiratory muscles shut down and he went into respiratory failure.  He was intubated, on a ventilator for weeks and threw a bloodclot to his heart, having an mi.  Now even in a game with permadeath, is anyone suggesting if you are attacked with poison your character is incapacitated for a month?  For realisim sake?

     

    It always amazes me how some folks can draw an imaginary line in an imaginary world and say, this is real and this is not.  As if elves and fairies and werewolves are perfectly normal but rezing from the dead is not. 

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,225Member Uncommon

    Why is it I don't see any threads about "perma-lockout timers" or "perma-injury?"  Why is it I don't see any threads about "perma-reputation hit" or "perma-PvP status?"  Because all of those mechanics encourage the same things people are asking for with permadeath: increasing the stakes in an MMO.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by exdeathbr

    The lack of people on the permadeath server compared with the other one is not a problem. Also, in theory if this is a needed things to make the server exist (so, people not "ban" it), well thats the only thing that can be made.

    Also, if most players that join the permadeath server think they can handle it, but see they can't and they leave, this is not a problem. I mean in theory this is a good thing, at least they tried the game.

    In the real world, it is a problem.  Servers cost money.  A company is not going to keep a server running if hardly anyone uses it.  It will close the server and fold the characters into another, non-PD server.

    Face facts, there just aren't enough people in most games that favor PD that would make it a viable option.

    There seem to be enough people in Diablo 3 to make it viable. Of course D3 sold 10M copies, so even a minority of D3 players sizable.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Terranah

    What is actually stopping a player from deleting a character and starting over if their toon dies in any mmo?  Nothing, nothing at all. Therefore fans of permadeath can self initiate this if they choose.  The fact that others choose in the same game not to self delete after death should have no bearing on the matter, as there are many real life instances where my belief does not jibe with someones actions, yet their actions/inactions do not change my beliefs or invalidate them.

    Nothing. And people do that.

    The most famous is the WOW "iron man challenge".

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4452527/Till_Death_Do_You_Part-2_10_2012#blog

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Just adding permadeath to a title such as WOW or EVE just makes no sense to  me.

    The part that bugs me about perma-death is how many deaths you experience that are entirely beyond your control; internet interruptions, something that FPS games are not subject to.  I died twice yesterday--yes, in PVE--just due to freezing in front of an already-aggroed mob that ate my face before I could even sign back in.

    That doesn't happen in single-player games.  It can't.  Your relatives never "drop in" for visits, phone never rings, sudden case of the trots, dinner's on fire, etc. etc.  I get no "quick save" button in the MMO world.

    Deaths I earned? Sure, I did something dumb.

    Deaths due to my ISP or other entirely random events?  Uh, no.  No, thank you. 

    Keep the idea in lag-proof single-player games, where actually it works.

     

    Sure, you won't play it. Sure i won't play it.

    But PD option is there. HC mode in D3. It is online. There is ISP/lag death. People still play it. So there are people who don't mind the risks.

    In fact, D3 is particularly unforgiving. You die, you can lose a LOT of time.

    Sort of like mountain climbing don't you think?  No real reason to do it, very good chance you'll die in the process, and accidents beyond one's control do happen.

    Yet people keep doing it.

    Just not me. image

    While i won't do it, certainly it is fun to discuss it.

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Terranah

    What is actually stopping a player from deleting a character and starting over if their toon dies in any mmo?  Nothing, nothing at all. Therefore fans of permadeath can self initiate this if they choose.  The fact that others choose in the same game not to self delete after death should have no bearing on the matter, as there are many real life instances where my belief does not jibe with someones actions, yet their actions/inactions do not change my beliefs or invalidate them. As with any game mechanic, there is a place for permadeath as part of a particular game's design, just as there is a place in some games for housing or chat bubbles or any number of features or mechanics.  But at least with permadeath, any player can insitute self deletion, whereas I can not create housing or after creation character customization.  We all are constrained or limited by what games provide, and what developers feel the market supports. But what would the rationalization of permadeath be in a game where it inclusion is not very popular?  Realism?  Certainly not realism, a game set in a virtual realm is by definition not real.  Excitement?  Well, different people find different things exciting...or irritating for that matter. But let's take realism for a moment.  I had a friend who was bitten by a rattlesnake.  The poison didn't tick down on a timer and he was all better.  He went blind, his respiratory muscles shut down and he went into respiratory failure.  He was intubated, on a ventilator for weeks and threw a bloodclot to his heart, having an mi.  Now even in a game with permadeath, is anyone suggesting if you are attacked with poison your character is incapacitated for a month?  For realisim sake? It always amazes me how some folks can draw an imaginary line in an imaginary world and say, this is real and this is not.  As if elves and fairies and werewolves are perfectly normal but rezing from the dead is not. 

    The first half of your post I was ready to peg you as a moron for justifying "self deleting" but then the second half saved you... carry on.

    image
  • pkpkpkpkpkpk amherst, MAPosts: 85Member
    I think I made a post in this thread and it was removed for 'trolling'. Basically I said that where you find permadeath hate you will find simple people not worth discussing things with. So why make a long post of it? I realize a long post takes time, but I don't think the topic deserves it. Permadeath of course has numerous solid reasons behind it which are well-acquainted to anyone who has played games long enough to be worthy of participation in such a discussion.
  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,225Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by pkpkpk
    I think I made a post in this thread and it was removed for 'trolling'. Basically I said that where you find permadeath hate you will find simple people not worth discussing things with. So why make a long post of it? I realize a long post takes time, but I don't think the topic deserves it. Permadeath of course has numerous solid reasons behind it which are well-acquainted to anyone who has played games long enough to be worthy of participation in such a discussion.

    You know, in the early days of MUDs and MUSHs, permadeath was the rule and not the exception.

    What, do you think, changed?

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member

    Permadeath is never a good idea because of potential connection issues that can cause a death.  In EQ death was a pretty huge penalty and I can remember that most of my deaths were caused by disconnects. 

    I think that at best a good MMO could implement a death system so that for raids and pvp events once you die you cannot respawn; only be rezzed by another player.  Or, create a side server that provides campaigns where the campaign server provides special adventure and loot; when you die you are booted out of campaign and returned to the regular part of the world again. ALthough as I type this I see issues where many players would hide until the latter parts of the campaign so there would also need to be some kind of tracking, e.g. a quest line to ensure each player has to attempt to get through the gauntlet of the campaign to make it to the end.

     

     

     

     

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr colatinaPosts: 137Member Common
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by exdeathbr

    The lack of people on the permadeath server compared with the other one is not a problem. Also, in theory if this is a needed things to make the server exist (so, people not "ban" it), well thats the only thing that can be made.

    Also, if most players that join the permadeath server think they can handle it, but see they can't and they leave, this is not a problem. I mean in theory this is a good thing, at least they tried the game.

    In the real world, it is a problem.  Servers cost money.  A company is not going to keep a server running if hardly anyone uses it.  It will close the server and fold the characters into another, non-PD server.

    Face facts, there just aren't enough people in most games that favor PD that would make it a viable option.

    We are not talking about companies in my original post, if they will do or not. The question is that if the permadeath haters users would allow that. Just assume the company would mantain the server, and if you are one of the type of users I talk about in the thread answer if you would ban this idea or not , assuming that YES, they would keep the permadeath server.

     

    Originally posted by Terranah

    What is actually stopping a player from deleting a character and starting over if their toon dies in any mmo?  Nothing, nothing at all. Therefore fans of permadeath can self initiate this if they choose.  The fact that others choose in the same game not to self delete after death should have no bearing on the matter, as there are many real life instances where my belief does not jibe with someones actions, yet their actions/inactions do not change my beliefs or invalidate them.

    As I said some times in this thread, deleting your char in a normal game when you die and permadeath is not the same thing.

    As I said before

    Some ways why permadeath server and deleting your char when you die are different things:

    Gameplay A: Npcs are attacking your city, you and your friends are defenting it.

    You delete your char when you die: All your friends will be able to respawn to help your to defend your city.

    Permadeath:People start again when they die and so you would have less reinforcements.

    Gameplay B: A sandbox game that is like ultima online. You have a friend that is a very good blacksmith.

    You delete your char when you die: This blacksmith guy will be able to help people again.

    Permadeath: The world will lose a very good blacksmith, this guy will not be able to help you.

    Gameplay C: Player A has a house and player B stay in this house with player A when he is there.

    Player B delete his char when he dies: Nothing Happens.

    Permadeath: He will not be able to enter house again, because player A will be dead and will own the house.

     

    Originally posted by Terranah

    But let's take realism for a moment.  I had a friend who was bitten by a rattlesnake.  The poison didn't tick down on a timer and he was all better.  He went blind, his respiratory muscles shut down and he went into respiratory failure.  He was intubated, on a ventilator for weeks and threw a bloodclot to his heart, having an mi.  Now even in a game with permadeath, is anyone suggesting if you are attacked with poison your character is incapacitated for a month?  For realisim sake?

     

    It always amazes me how some folks can draw an imaginary line in an imaginary world and say, this is real and this is not.  As if elves and fairies and werewolves are perfectly normal but rezing from the dead is not. 

    This is not about realism. Also fantasy games have ressurections spells, that would being ressurected by spells (and so no permadeath) would be a realistic thing (in their world).

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    Its not so much against the perma-death feature.  Its the mechanics of it.  In many games I have died due to reason out of my control.  Game freeze, lag, control not responding.   Here I would be pissed if I perma-died because of that.

    Fix that (giving people options/opportunities to come back in those situations) and could be a better option.

    That would only result in a nearly endless line of tickets for the CE staff.  No company in its right mind would do it.  Item replacements (usually limited to X number per account per lifetime, for the same reason).

    As someone explained upthread, you live with the inherent possibility of simple randomness washing away weeks or months of your play, or you don't play.

    That does indeed make the decision really, really easy.  Particularly when you have my ISP...no-brainer.  Not a question of IF (I will be screwed), but rather a question of WHEN.  Pass the lube please.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • exdeathbrexdeathbr colatinaPosts: 137Member Common

    Holy man, 47.8% voted on "baning" it.

    I postead a thing that is not even permadeath and people want to stop it.

    This is the ideas with the lowest amount of permadeath on it (it doenst even have permadeath if you dont play on permadeath server) that I can think about. Yet people want to "ban" it.

    There is a idea with smaller amount of permadeath, that doenst even have permadeath on any server from the game. Well its not permadeath idea, but many somehow consider it.

    I am thinking if I create a thread with this new "permadeath idea after this die, I dont consider this new idea that I will post as permadeath, so YES, by baning this idea they already banned all permadeath ideas that are possible to exist, since all other ones will have more permadeath features than this one.

    But people here are saying that this new idea is permadeath, and I would love to see if they would "ban" even their own idea.

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