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First person MMORPGS, what do you think of the concept?

24

Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kaiser3282

    Thats exactly the kind of stuff i was referring to in my 1st post. How exactly are you "crippled"? Are you crippled IRL because you see things from 1st person view? No. You learn to pay attention to your surroundings and be more careful, as well as learning to listen for things going on around you.

    I used to play a lot of FPS games, and I used to be able to post up in 1 spot and tell my team exactly where enemies were and how many of them there are in each position, and know exactly when to move in for the attack and catch them in the middle of reloading / swapping weapons / checking the other direction just from learning to listen to the sounds. It was something I also forced my clan to learn, and we held the highest rankings in several games for a long time because of such tactics. 1st person view didnt cripple us in the slightest. It simply made those who adjusted to the realism better at actual fighting, not good at hiding behind stuff and using 3rd person view to see everything that is going on which is completely unrealistic.

    In real life, I have peripheral vision and directional hearing.  That gives me a much better view of what is going on in the world than you can get in any first person shooter.

    Furthermore, in real life, I tend not to have a bunch of monsters surrounding me and trying to kill me, as sometimes happens in MMORPGs.  If I were in that situation in real life, then yeah, I would be rather crippled as compared to what I can do in a typical MMORPG.  Though not having real-life access to heavy-duty weapons and magic spells has something to do with that.

    You're not arguing that you aren't crippled in first person shooters.  You're arguing that you can win in PVP because you're less crippled than your opponents.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Thus it can be very hard to avoid the rocks, and the centipede when he moves. The fight is far more immersive, because again, first person is that way by nature, but the difficulty is the same as  a third person fight.

    You just need to know ways of making it difficult with that camera setting.

    Perhaps you can calibrate the content to be playable with a first person perspective.  But give the player a third person perspective for exactly the same battle and it likely becomes trivial rather than challenging.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by plutosams
    The problem with first person view is that it actually shrinks the viewable space considerably compared to real life.  It is comparable to wearing goggles with side blinders.  Our eyes see a lot more than what is just ahead of us.  Third person, while overexaggerating actually gets closer to the the real life field of view...obviously adding a bit since you can see your character and a bit more to the sides than normal.  The only way first person would truly work for immersion is to have a headset with monitors covering all fields of vision.   Currently first person view is closer to running around looking through a video camera rather than through real vision fields. 

    Peripheral vision is what you are refering to. However, this problem is easily fixed in FPS games by having directional sound. You don't need to see something to the right side of you, if you can hear it and turn to face it.

    As long as creatures/players make enough noise (unless the stealth is part of their capacity), this issue isn't really present.

    But if you want to get really technical, the best field of vision would be a virtual reality headset, as that would allow us to turn our heads behind our necks, something no FPS I know of really allows.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Perhaps you can calibrate the content to be playable with a first person perspective.  But give the player a third person perspective for exactly the same battle and it likely becomes trivial rather than challenging.

     

    Ah, unless you add an active combat system, in which you have to actually aim your crossbow, fireball, or spear.

    Then hitting a moving centipede in first person on the weak points becomes difficult, and you can't have good aiming with a third person game.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by strangewizard
    The skill argument would still be mitigated as people who lacked good FPS skill could compete by having better gear, people with better FPS skill could beat people with better gear through sheer skill.
    So... these people with "better skills" would be denied access to this better equipment? Equipment that they would have a much easier time getting? Good luck with that :)

    To be honest, I am really confused by what you proposed there. Basically, I am reading "Give those with lesser skills better equipment to compete." and then read "But better skilled players could still beat those better equipped players through their better skills." How does giving players something that has no affect on their ability evening the playing field?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,425Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangewizard
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Perhaps you can calibrate the content to be playable with a first person perspective.  But give the player a third person perspective for exactly the same battle and it likely becomes trivial rather than challenging.

     

    Ah, unless you add an active combat system, in which you have to actually aim your crossbow, fireball, or spear.

    Then hitting a moving centipede in first person on the weak points becomes difficult, and you can't have good aiming with a third person game.

    I actually liked Darkfall's system. It gave you the peripheral vision aspect (which I can't do without), forced the FPV for aiming. Add in some mirrors for viewing your appearance, and it's pretty good. Also add in head turning, better.

    Once upon a time....

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    I'm perfectly fine with it. Furthermore the technology is getting to the point where such a concept is actually viable. However, for an RPG you need to consider the following:

    - 1st person view tends to work best with certain types of gameplay, namely ranged / shooter / aim-heavy gameplay. It can work with melee combat, but it tends to feel more clunky / awkward than it does for ranged combat types.

    - By being first person, you do get more immersed in the world, but actually less immersed in your character. This is because the looks of your character are no longer something you are really dealing with, at best you get a glimpse in the UI, but for the most part you never really get a sense of who your character is. This is because the 1st person experience interjects all experiences directly on to you.

    Personally, if such a thing was to be tried, I'd love to see an approach similar to what Jedi Knight had. 1st person for ranged with a 3rd person switch for melee. It would not only help balance some of the inequalities between ranged & melee, but also prevent you from getting tunnel vision when doing melee combat. Plus, sometimes it's just cool to watch your character do badass things.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    So... these people with "better skills" would be denied access to this better equipment? Equipment that they would have a much easier time getting? Good luck with that :)

     

    To be honest, I am really confused by what you proposed there. Basically, I am reading "Give those with lesser skills better equipment to compete." and then read "But better skilled players could still beat those better equipped players through their better skills." How does giving players something that has no affect on their ability evening the playing field?

     

    No, I mean that people who didn't have as much FPS skill could compete by spending more time to get better items. Whereas if you didn't have quite as good gear, you could bridge the gap with superior skill. However, yes, as you said, someone with lots of time and dedication to get the best gear, and having good FPS skills, would be doubly superior, indeed.

    However, most the time, the people who are slower and not as good at FPS, are typically the better grinders, and people with less patience, typically have better reflexes. While this isn't always true, I've noticed it as a trend (take that for what you will).

    But your argument doesn't just apply to this, it can apply to any competitive game. There are always going to be good and bad players, and someone will almost always be better and worse than you. This will happen no matter what the difficulty of the game is, be it time, knowledge, reflexes, etc.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Also, those MMORPGs that give you the option of first person, are normally a joke in comparison to the third person (as you stated). In order to do it right, the first person nature would need to be designed ideally, so that the game would function with this in mind (there are numerous FPS single-player games to illustrate this).

    The reason a first person perspective cripples you isn't bad camera design.  Doing a first person camera perspective is actually substantially easier than third person, as you don't need to worry about objects blocking the camera.  There's simply no way to design a first person perspective that lets you see what's going on anywhere near as well as a third person perspective.  As you note, there have been many first person shooters, and none of them have figured out.  The only thing they can do to make the game playable for PVE is to make it a lot less challenging than they could if you had a clearer view of what was going on.

    I played Quake 2 with a FOW of 120*. It actually bothers me that newer games have set the FOW to 90. It has to be atleast 100 for me to feel comfortable.

    (* field of view = 120 degrees)

     were only a few years out (maybe 5-7) from widespread flexible oled screen technology so you might get your 120 degrees, and of course you could get it now with a 3 monitor setup.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member

    Since we are discussing this, would it be possible to create such a MMORPG with no user interface? Like this...

    I'm curious, very curious.

     

    EDIT: Aside from a chat menu, and possibly menus like backpacks that open up to deal with economy, but a very minimalistic or no-user interface type of system?

    I don't think it has been done before in the context of MMORPGs.

    Most MMORPGs have information overflowing onto the screen.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by strangewizard
    But your argument doesn't just apply to this, it can apply to any competitive game. There are always going to be good and bad players, and someone will almost always be better and worse than you. This will happen no matter what the difficulty of the game is, be it time, knowledge, reflexes, etc.
    This is very true. I find that the FPS crowd are much more interested in how they compare to others than the RPG crowd is.

    Now, look at the title of the thread. "MMORPG" is specifically mentioned. Now we've derailed into a "MMOFPS" discussion.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • wyldmagikwyldmagik SouthamptonPosts: 307Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Put a pair of goggles on and walk around for a while, then tell me how immersive it would be.

     

    Oculus Rift :)
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Most MMORPGs are designed in third person or a tactical birds eye view. What about a first person MMORPG? Personally, I never understood why they are not done in first person. First person games are the most immersive, and MMORPGs are the most immersive genre, so naturally, a first-person MMORPG would be very immersive, indeed.

    What would you think of a MMORPG designed this way? It would show your character's weapons like a first person game, and likely also have real-time combat like an FPS, however, it would still be about leveling up, exploring, doing quests, etc, like an RPG

    EverQuest was originally first person.

    Darkfall is first person.

    Vanguard has a first person mode where you can look down at your legs.

    It exists, and its great, especially in Darkfall.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Having played RPGs nearly my entire life the best option is to allow both. I prefer and default to First Person but depending on the game and how the camera works I always like the option to pull out to 3rd person ... even if its just me wanting to see how cool my avatar looks :-)

    image
  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Since we are discussing this, would it be possible to create such a MMORPG with no user interface? Like this...

    I'm curious, very curious.

     

    EDIT: Aside from a chat menu, and possibly menus like backpacks that open up to deal with economy, but a very minimalistic or no-user interface type of system?

    I don't think it has been done before in the context of MMORPGs.

    Most MMORPGs have information overflowing onto the screen.

    Why leave the chat window? VOIP

     

    It is interesting to think that as technology evolves people might want to eliminate UIs in games to add realism. Yet as techonolgy evolves we are looking at ways to incoporate UIs and HUDs into real life through glasses and other technology.

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    * MMORPG combat tends to be more tactical than twitch based.
    * Third Person View is expected.
    * Third Person View allows the player to see their character and the gear that the character is wearing. Gear is an important component of the MMORPG experience (generally) and the appearance of the gear is important too.

    That's all I can think of right now.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    I won't play any game, regardless of genre, that uses first person view.  It's one of the few non-starters for me.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Since we are discussing this, would it be possible to create such a MMORPG with no user interface? Like this...

    I'm curious, very curious.

     

    EDIT: Aside from a chat menu, and possibly menus like backpacks that open up to deal with economy, but a very minimalistic or no-user interface type of system?

    I don't think it has been done before in the context of MMORPGs.

    Most MMORPGs have information overflowing onto the screen.

    Why leave the chat window? VOIP

     

    It is interesting to think that as technology evolves people might want to eliminate UIs in games to add realism. Yet as techonolgy evolves we are looking at ways to incoporate UIs and HUDs into real life through glasses and other technology.

    UIs are useful. A good UI supports gameplay. Similarly a HUD improves usability. There is no particular need to get rid of them in games - excepth for those who want extreme realism (a niche). If you didn't have your ammo, health and whatnot onscreen you would need to check that from a menu somewhere, which is very inconvenient.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member

    Does no one know the first 3D MMO, Everquest, is first person.

    Vanguard also has a first person setting iirc.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Since we are discussing this, would it be possible to create such a MMORPG with no user interface? Like this...

    I'm curious, very curious.

     

    EDIT: Aside from a chat menu, and possibly menus like backpacks that open up to deal with economy, but a very minimalistic or no-user interface type of system?

    I don't think it has been done before in the context of MMORPGs.

    Most MMORPGs have information overflowing onto the screen.

    Why leave the chat window? VOIP

     

    It is interesting to think that as technology evolves people might want to eliminate UIs in games to add realism. Yet as techonolgy evolves we are looking at ways to incoporate UIs and HUDs into real life through glasses and other technology.

    UIs are useful. A good UI supports gameplay. Similarly a HUD improves usability. There is no particular need to get rid of them in games - excepth for those who want extreme realism (a niche). If you didn't have your ammo, health and whatnot onscreen you would need to check that from a menu somewhere, which is very inconvenient.

    Now I think you just hunt me down in the forums to argue things I'm not saying.

     

    I don't think the OP was saying UIs aren't useful. He was in fact arguing for a realistic approach to a game, which oddly enough is what you just argued as a reason people would get rid of the UI. In my quote I even say "to add realism".

     

    This whole thread is essentially a brainstorming exercise for the OP who is discussing different approaches to interacting with an MMO, starting with a FP camera and now his discussion has gone into a far more realistic UI approach (as in none at all).

     

    Personally I would love a shooter that had no UI. No overhead map, no blips of you and the enemy, no ammo count, no magically recycling of ammo to create new full clips when you pull out a half empty one.  I'm all for some different approaches to games instead of the "Hey this is what the other companies do".

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    I used to love first perspective, but I have swung around to third perspective, there is a satisfaction to be had from viewing your avatar's image and animations. Maybe this is because the graphics are a lot more detailed.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    Does no one know the first 3D MMO, Everquest, is first person.

    Vanguard also has a first person setting iirc.

    I think the original point of this thread was a forced first person only interface. Yes, I think almost all of us know that first person is an option you can toggle off an on in many 3D MMOs.

  • defector1968defector1968 Nar ShaddaaPosts: 393Member Common

    I start playing games from Wolfstein 3D

    Then i go to Doom and Doom 2

    Then i played the 1st Star Wars - Jedi Knight with 3rd person

    After that i never played 1st person games

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    First person view pretty much requires head phone use with simulated surround sound.

    THAT is immersion - and the only way to do 1st person correct IMO without feeling like you lost one of your most important senses.

    But yeah, I'll agree that 1st person perspective works and could work well for shooter MMO but melee combat is so hit/miss it would require you to give options for 3rd person - in which case everyone would use 3rd view.

    I really enjoyed the FP melee combat in Skyrim, but MMO PvP and large scale PvE combat is far too hectic to make that kind of combat perspective work.

    But the dress-up fans would still hate it even if FPS - which is why you see it "working" for the most part in a game like Planetside 2 as you are a uniformed soldier so there is a LOT more comformity in appearance.

     

  • nakkinakki KauniainenPosts: 56Member
    I only know one first person mmorpg and that is mortal online and  the immersion in that game was so different in a good way compared to anything else I've tryed that it's just silly there aren't any successful mmorpgs with first person view. My friend also felt the same way and thought that there is a huge potential in first person view. The game in itself was not polished enough tho. Anyway, Please gods ! Let the wow era die so we can start seeing some really good and different mmorpgs once again.
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