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Auction House: Death of Community
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AH does not kill a community in any way shape or form. What does is solo centric games.
XI had one of the best/tight nit communities I have ever seen and it had an AH. When you have to interact with other people thats when a community forms. No to little ineraction makes for no community. When I say interaction I dont mean just trying to buy and sell items. Thats not real interaction, and that does not contribute to a community, because you just buy or sell your stuff and go on you merry little way. When I say interaction I mean actually playing the game together, like XP parties/raids/group content stuff.
You will never ever ever ever ever ever ever and I mean never ever ever ever ever ever have a server comunity in solo centric mmo's. That is the number 1 killer to a community.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I like to think that I never criticize other peoples posts, but I think it's crazy to say that the AH didn't hurt the community in EQ badly. The EC tunnel was always full, it's where I went to find larger dungeon groups because of trading. One day after the auction house popped up the tunnel was dead.
The other thing that killed community was voip. It also helped in a way, but it forced people to get TS or Vent, go through all the hassle of setting up server connections and people started to feel like it wasn't worth the hassle. Better to go out with a 5 group that already has TS than set up a 6th with all the crap and have them leave after one fight. On top of that people used to chat all the time in text, where you can split off if you want privacy. It's much less convenient to have multiple conversations with VoIP along with a mass guild conversation at the same time.
I wouldn't go back for either, but it makes creating a community harder.
The third leg for me in the community problem is just growing older. When I was younger I'd join up with anyone. Now I get mad at people more easily. My biggest complaint about people are that they complain. (ironic I know)
I like groups that can fail and still have fun, and it's almost impossible to find that. It's not worth joining a group when half of the people are telling the other half how to play their class. Coming from EQ and having a regular group that hit the highest dungeons without a warrior, cleric or enchanter it's hard for me to listen to people tell a group member how they should play their class.
I would go back to being younger and just jump in to more groups and roll with the new way more if I could.
I don't think there's any going back, so we just have to work within the guild system to try and make what connections we can. Taking away auction houses might help one small corner, but not the whole problem.
Asdar
Actually it was fun. You did not have to do this, since sooner or later you would know few best crafters in your area,(or your friends / guild would ) but it still was fun to check stores once in a while.
Obviously many people will not like it. Every game type, every genre, etc have people that like it and that don't.
Many newest mmorpg's are totally diffrent game type that old ones. Technically they are still in same genre, but they went so far in differentiating and total concept change that it could be said that they are in diffrent genres.
I agree, and it isnt the only problem with communitys in these games but its one high up on the list. along with instances, general chat, and the questing systems.
I don't believe that's necessarily true.
FFXI had an auction house and it had an awesome community for years. It's disintegrated a bit since SE took the "more soloable and casual friendly" road with it (no surprise there) and a major chunk of its original community has moved on to other games, etc. But for the 7+ years I played it, it had an awesome community despite having an AH.
I think there are far more influential factors at play, personally. Such as the game being extremely solo-friendly, people not having to interact except for a handful of events, etc. If people never have to interact, cooperate, etc, and there's no need for them to ever really communicate in the first place then, AH or no, a strong community just isn't going to develop. And I'm talking true server communities, not just "your guild" or your "inner circle".
I think it's more a situation where if a MMO has a strong community to begin with, then having an AH or not isn't really going to make a difference. It's a lesser factor among many that make or break one.
The things that are really killing any sense of community are all these things done for "convenience", in the ever-growing effort to "make the game more streamlined and efficient" because people have this idea that every moment in-game must be spent "being as productive and efficient as possible" or it's wasted time (no wonder so many refer to MMOs as "jobs"; they treat them like one). I never quite understood that, personally, and it always comes back to the "console gamer mindset" in my opinion.
The only peson putting that "pressure" on the gamer is them self, because they're in this hurry to get to the end - a very console gamer-like behavior. There are few people I've met (relatively speaking) who made that distinction and "got it" when they first came from console gaming to MMO gaming. Most others immediately try to shoe-horn their console-gamer habits and perceptions into the MMO mold. It usually results in them "yelling" at the "clueless developers" to change the game 'cause they have it all wrong. The argument that "MMORPGs are all about end-game, everything before that is useless filler" was born from that attitude. That's pretty much been the way of it since WoW popularized the genre.
One could argue, with some credibility, that playing a game to begin with is a waste of time. I think it has a lot more to do with people always feeling they have to "hurry hurry hurry" and "go go go" through everything, or they're "not being productive enough". They'll never grow a strong community, because they can't stand still long enough to put down any kind of roots, so to speak. There's an end-game with 'phat lewt' and, dammit, they're not stopping 'til they get there.
An hour or 2 spent in a MMO is the same for everyone. The only difference is how it's spent. For the more "adventuring", "journey-oriented" (ie. traditional MMO players), that hour or two is spent doing whatever it is they feel interested in doing. For the more console-gaming minded, that time is spent "being as productive as possible, as quickly and efficiently as possible, because dammit they gotta get to the end-game ASAP, and, damn those developers and their "useless time-sinks", they can never get there as fast as they want".
Both groups are spending the same amount of "wasted time" playing a game. It's just that one group spends that time enjoying whatever they're doing "right now". The other group spends that time forever fretting impatiently about what they want to be doing in the future. I make that comparison as un-judgmentally as possible. That's simplly what I observe when I talk to other MMO gamers and read their comments, etc.
So, really, the blame for communities not existing goes to both developers and gamers, almost equally, I think.
I'll have to respectfully disagree there.
Not to mention most of the games mentioned are probably bad examples of games to establish communities* in due to their solo-ability.
As you yourself already said, you don't need others in GW2 for anything (except to make money off of them), the same holds true for SWTOR, though to a lesser degree, I can't speak for TERA but I suspect it's a similar solo friendly system.
I'd say it's more of a combination of things rather than any single thing (such as the AH).
* Outside your own guilds
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Yes the Auction House has played a role in the death of community in modern MMOs but it's only one of several things that have done so. In games like EQ you were dependant on other players for almost every aspect of game play. This made it so being social was necessary to achieve anything in game. The community killer in todays MMOs is solo-centric gameplay of which the Auction House plays only one small part. The real aspect of modern MMOs that is killing the community aspects is the fact that in most games you can play from level 1 to whatever the level cap is without having to interact with another player for any reason. Because of this instead of players viewing others as a possible boon they are now seen as a liability that will only get in the way of leveling and solo questing.
EDIT: You are correct about one thing though. Action Houses were the first step down this soloers path that we seem to be stuck in now. People hate things such as forced grouping but it was these very things that helped nurcher some of the best communities of the past as it made players interdepentant of each other and created server-wide communities that are just impossible in todays solo-centric games.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
May be fun for you, not for me.
The FUN of shopping is to discover a good item at a good price. It is MOOT to know the actual crafter. It is MUCH more efficient to search the item on its stat and properties. If the item is powerful, and that it has a good price, why would i care who make it? It is very boring to run around just to check inventory of vendors. A central AH does that for you.
I would agree the characteristics of the genre change. But genre changes all the time. MMO would not be the first, nor the last.
Actually it was fun. You did not have to do this, since sooner or later you would know few best crafters in your area,(or your friends / guild would ) but it still was fun to check stores once in a while.
Obviously many people will not like it. Every game type, every genre, etc have people that like it and that don't.
Many newest mmorpg's are totally diffrent game type that old ones. Technically they are still in same genre, but they went so far in differentiating and total concept change that it could be said that they are in diffrent genres.
Yea, after a couple of times you knew the best vendors, you had everything way pointed. But there were sometimes that I just loved roaming the planets in search of some good stuff.
In SWG it is not "moot" to know the actual crafter, because crafting in SWG, unlike other games, has something called experimentation - good crafters really knows how to manipulate this to get the best results.
I used to be a slicer so I used to work with good crafters a lot, because if I bought a case of their good crafted items, and I got good slice on on them, I can sell them for very high price.
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/mhoward48/media/OnwYv97.jpg.html
this turned into quite a nice little discussion, even one without flames, which is shocking to say the least here.
my history of games does not include SWG, I only have second hand knowledge of that game.
I started really into MMO's in
Asheron's Call- No AH, no crafting, heavy trade services like dyeing, cooking, fletching, tinkering. We used AC Vault as a trade broker and it was superb.
Horizons- They had an AH, but the AH only sold mats, and recipes, you still had to find a crafter to make you everything which was a great community game, as well as community projects, wish the game didnt flop, cause they were really onto something
WOW- Dont know how I played thru WOTLK, maybe it was new and fun, really it was my first themepark, and Vanilla and BC had great communities on my server, then LK everything went south for some reason (Burnout?)
RIFT, SWTOR, TSW, TERA, GW2, just havent been able to get into them at all. Played all of them about 2 months, zero community, zero need for community. Hoping one of the upcoming sandboxes bring the community back to the genre, cause it really is fun just getting a group and going on an adventure. Holding out hope for Origins of Malu, Archeage, Repopulation and The Black Desert
Maybe this topic will catch Murphy's eye
While I dont begrudge your opinion I still think its wrong. Standing around hawking your wares IMO takes away from things that are fun and the AH is jsut one of the long line of convenience "quality of life" improvements that the modern MMO has innovated on, and for the better. The other misnomer players make regarding the death of the community is dungeon finders, which I too think is false.
Their are only 3 issues which can be attributed to the percieved loss of community and those are:
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Of course certain things won't be fun for you while they will be for me and also there are alot of things that are fun to you and are not fun for me. Thing is there is small chance that we'll want to even play same games judging from our discussions in past. I am not trying take anything from you - you should have wide range of games made for you - but I don't care much about their features as much as you seem to care about features of a games you would not even want to play in first place.
Fortunetally video games market is so huge nowadays that you will get endless stream of instanced purely combat oriented games to your liking.
========
Point of trading and crafting in mmoprg I am saying was not moot, since by knowing your crafters you could make better deals with them than random consumer would. You could coopeate with him / her getting custom made gear.
It is very boring to spend time browisng through list of items. It is much more interesing game to try to get competetive advantage by travelling to vendors / crafters in diffrent parts of game world or by cooperating with them. It is much better mini-game by crafting something that need coopeartion of few people.
You're only interested in conveniant way to get items since you care from what you were saying almost exclusively in combat and at same time you don't have much interest in community, non-combat cooperation, more complex trading or crafting and playing rpg's games that offer wide-array of non-combat features.
We're both interested in games that are technically called mmorpg's but in reality we are interested in totally diffrent TYPE of games.
Do you complain that Civilization or 4x games are not providing you with gameplay similar to Starcraft?
RTS games once were once labbeled as strategies. In time rts went more and more in action and e-sport twich gameplay and there was bigger and bigger diffrences between them and more classic strategies so naturally strategy games have split into two separate genres.
Now mmorpg's are still labelled as one genre but it is already so big and diffrent that it will inevitably divide into separate genres. Absolutely hugest part will be conveniant instanced dungeon / arena runners with matchmaking made for you.
So you should be happy because in future you might have mmorpg's suited more for your taste and diffrent kinds of mmorpgs will be labelled with diffrent genre name and will be made for diffrent audience thus you won't even have to have play games with features made for people like me that make your experience worse by putting some features you don't like.
the FUN was seeing so many different and unique decorations in players' houses in SWG. Never stop traveling in all 6 years i played the game. Also i kept many videos with my most loved decorations. Some people made a tidirium shuttle with materials from the game. Some made a complete droid factory. Some Pod Speeders. Some made a family house with vases, fish tank, fireplace, chairs e.t.c. and such
That is only because there is no AH.
If there is an AH, the attribute of the item will be displayed. So while a good crafter and make better items and charge higher prices, the buyers don't have to care who he is.
If only you can make a +5 sword, and all swords are +4. On the AH, i can see your +5 sword. But i don't care about you or who you are .. i only care the "+5". The identify of the crafter is MOOT on a AH.
I hear what you are saying but I see it more complex than that. Things never remain the same and the only constant is change.
Years ago before AH were created we didnt have as many games and I'd say our community wasn't as large. The entire fun of playing online back then was connecting with friends. As it was the only way to do it long distance. Fast forward a decade of so and communication is built into almost everything we do. I look at my nephew and niece and they are never without some form of communication cell phone, instant messaging, twitter, facebook, you name it. Can we say if all of this existing back when we played that we play exactly the same? I think not.
I also believe this infusion of instant communication as almost forced our brains to work more efficiently to filter out the information overload. I can find out way more about a game and or movie than I can seeing or playing it. I see AH being a result of that efficiency. I also see gaming age as a factor. Im pushing 40. At 17, 18 I had nothing else better to do than play games. Now I have a mortgage, private school, events, etc. When I sit down to play a game and I want to sell soemthing, sometimes I just dont have the time to go back and forth and haggle. Its *easier* for me to post something on an AH and just collect my money. Hell I even get upset when the AH cant be run offline.
I dont believe games are becoming solo as much as the main aspect that these 'social' games gave us have been superceded by other inventions to the point where its not seen as a necessity in the game. If I want to talk to my friends I can actually do it now WHILE I play a game. I dont think it will ever be removed, as some like to Role Play in the game and some truly enjoy speaking with the people there. But we shouldn't rule out the fact around why it is declining.
So you mean a bunch of people spamming "WTS XXXXX" like 10 times a minute builds a community heh?
No AH doesn't destroy the community. In fact it helps. At least people would bother reading the channels.......
I miss old school MMORPGs but AH is a nice feature. If the game content is group/social oriented, AH won't "kill" the community. People that don't bother socializing do.
@nariusseldon
Forgive me that I will not quote whole post.
Anyway - we're getting somewhere.
I think that devs trying to create one game for in. example me and you - are actually huting game itself.
Sure - most mmorpg's went to cater to people with your expectations, but at same time they still try to 'sneak' some features to lure gamers like me (or similar) and some diffrent groups and because of that they may spoil your experience and stall splitting mmorpg into sub-genres.
Fortunatelly merging very difftent philosophies slowly stop to work.
GW2 didn't have their AH up because of the exploiting issue. Do you really need rewards for having friends? really? really tho? just wow.......
Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games