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No player housing? Why not?

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by lizardbones  


    If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing. It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible.  
    not even close.   option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doing option 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information. its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru. understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better'
    Have analogies ever helped on these forums? It never helps. It just turns into a discussion about the analogy and what would be a better analogy. Saying the same thing in a different way doesn't add any additional information. Look, we know it's not technically impossible to add housing to any MMORPG, even after it's been in development for 5 years. There is a scenario where it is impossible to do well or as the players want it. It's not an open world game, so adding open world housing is not technically possible. The engine won't support it. Rewriting the engine is not possible if the game is actually supposed to release and not go bankrupt. They could add instanced housing, but would players actually want it? Enough players to make it worth doing? If the answer is no, then it's not possible to add housing in a way that players want. The less reasonable explanation, but the one that gets my vote, is that players are irrational, and if you tell them something reasonable, they just ignore it and continue to whine on internet forums forever. Being reasonable has never worked in any game, ever, so go the extreme, irrational route. "Housing in this game is impossible the way players want it". Don't give any additional information for them to nitpick, don't give them any points to argue about, just tell them it's impossible and then ignore every other attempt to bring it up.  
    1. analogies  are used when people fail to understand the main point. Its a way of helping.

     

    2. It is technically reasonable possible with what you and I both know about the game engine and you know that.

    3. what they should have said is 'we will not have player housing' adding 'like players want it' does nothing but make them look like they havent a clue what they are doing.

     



    1. You're assuming that I don't understand your point of view, which I don't think is the case. I think your point of view is nitpicking.

    2. I don't know anything of the kind. If they didn't write in the capability of adding structures to the world, based on player input, then it's not possible to add open world housing. It may not be possible to add any dynamic content to the world. Rewriting the engine to add such dynamic content is not going to be cheap. Changing anything about how the base engine works is not going to be cheap, especially after 5 years of development time. There are a couple people on these forums who are actually writing games and MMORPG, so they could comment better than I, but that change does not seem to be a trivial change.

    3. If they consider housing impossible for any reason, it's better to say it now, rather than waffle about it for years and years. It doesn't matter why they think it's impossible to do right. Not enough players would like the implementation, too many players decorate their homes instead of doing three way PvP, whatever. There's no point in giving any additional information because players would just pick it apart and obsess over it for years. They can know this because it happens every single time housing is brought up in any game where developers make a statement on housing that isn't, "Yes, we're adding housing."

     

    I will just address the last part. The second one kind of suggests that you know something about the existing game engine that you actually dont. It also implies you understand their meaning of 'how players want' which for this player is pretty much just Darkfall Housing.

    If they felt like they needed to explain why then they need to understand their audience. Their lack of understanding is extreemly clear in thier response. There is a ton of differen answers they could have given that would have been honest, more generall specific and at the same time not making them look moronic.

    In other words they could have said 'player housing is not possible because of this....' oh and 'what players want' who the f8ck do they think they are?

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by Thorbrand

    I would say because housing doesn't add anything to the gameplay or the game world including RP side. It is a waste of time and rescources.

    Your opinion. Not a fact

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by lizardbones  
    If they don't plan on doing housing and never will, then saying it's impossible is the way to go. They can't tell people to just shut up about it already, so they just say it can't happen. This thread is the reason why. People are still whining about it in WoW. The theme parkiest theme park that ever theme parked and people are still whining about housing. It also might be impossible for non-technical reasons. The investor's said, "No, because games with housing don't sell well." That would make it impossible. If the investors pull funding, the game disappears. So it's impossible.  
    not even close.   option 1: lie in a way that makes them sound like they dont have a clue what they are doing option 2: say 'we do not have player housing' peroid no extra information. its not like they are not getting backlash now for making a moronic statement that anyone who has played an MMO longer than 6 months would see right thru. understand what they said is similar to a plummer saying 'we are not using copper pipes because water can not flow thru them'. there are TONS of better asnwers, even better lies. randing from 'we are not using copper pipes' to 'we are not using copper pipes and we cant get into the specifics of why' to 'other materials are better'
    Have analogies ever helped on these forums? It never helps. It just turns into a discussion about the analogy and what would be a better analogy. Saying the same thing in a different way doesn't add any additional information. Look, we know it's not technically impossible to add housing to any MMORPG, even after it's been in development for 5 years. There is a scenario where it is impossible to do well or as the players want it. It's not an open world game, so adding open world housing is not technically possible. The engine won't support it. Rewriting the engine is not possible if the game is actually supposed to release and not go bankrupt. They could add instanced housing, but would players actually want it? Enough players to make it worth doing? If the answer is no, then it's not possible to add housing in a way that players want. The less reasonable explanation, but the one that gets my vote, is that players are irrational, and if you tell them something reasonable, they just ignore it and continue to whine on internet forums forever. Being reasonable has never worked in any game, ever, so go the extreme, irrational route. "Housing in this game is impossible the way players want it". Don't give any additional information for them to nitpick, don't give them any points to argue about, just tell them it's impossible and then ignore every other attempt to bring it up.  
    1. analogies  are used when people fail to understand the main point. Its a way of helping.   2. It is technically reasonable possible with what you and I both know about the game engine and you know that. 3. what they should have said is 'we will not have player housing' adding 'like players want it' does nothing but make them look like they havent a clue what they are doing.  
    1. You're assuming that I don't understand your point of view, which I don't think is the case. I think your point of view is nitpicking. 2. I don't know anything of the kind. If they didn't write in the capability of adding structures to the world, based on player input, then it's not possible to add open world housing. It may not be possible to add any dynamic content to the world. Rewriting the engine to add such dynamic content is not going to be cheap. Changing anything about how the base engine works is not going to be cheap, especially after 5 years of development time. There are a couple people on these forums who are actually writing games and MMORPG, so they could comment better than I, but that change does not seem to be a trivial change. 3. If they consider housing impossible for any reason, it's better to say it now, rather than waffle about it for years and years. It doesn't matter why they think it's impossible to do right. Not enough players would like the implementation, too many players decorate their homes instead of doing three way PvP, whatever. There's no point in giving any additional information because players would just pick it apart and obsess over it for years. They can know this because it happens every single time housing is brought up in any game where developers make a statement on housing that isn't, "Yes, we're adding housing."  
    I will just address the last part. The second one kind of suggests that you know something about the existing game engine that you actually dont. It also implies you understand their meaning of 'how players want' which for this player is pretty much just Darkfall Housing.

    If they felt like they needed to explain why then they need to understand their audience. Their lack of understanding is extreemly clear in thier response. There is a ton of differen answers they could have given that would have been honest, more generall specific and at the same time not making them look moronic.

    In other words they could have said 'player housing is not possible because of this....' oh and 'what players want' who the f8ck do they think they are?




    First you say I know something about the game engine...that's is reasonably possible to add housing. Then you say I don't know anything about the game engine. Which one is it? Do I know specific things about their game engine? No, of course not. That would mean I was part of the development team, and I wouldn't be posting here. I do know things about game engines in general and I know a lot about developing applications. If they aren't touting housing as a feature, it means the game engine won't do it, which means it will need to be added. What is the very first technology demo shown for games and game engines? It's the world itself. No players, no NPCs, just the terrain and the objects in the world. That is the base of the entire game. Everything you see depends on it, and if they have to rewrite the engine to add something that it doesn't currently do, the entire thing needs to be at least be tested. That is a lot of man hours. It's not going to be free. MMORPG rival the complexity of operating systems, without doing half as many things. It's not going to be cheap or easy to modify a fundamental aspect of the game.

    They didn't tell anyone why it's not possible because then thousands of players would nitpick the cr@p out of it. People would come up with reason after reason why it is possible and why they should do it. That's what happens. That's what always happens. If players acted like reasonable people, then they could tell them why they're doing stuff, but mostly players don't care. They just want whatever it is they want and they'll argue for-freaking-ever to get it. It's a no-win situation. Better to give as little information as possible and then totally ignore any further mention of it.

    As far as knowing what players want, that's debatable. They have their reasons, and they might be based on some sort of reality, or some sort of fantasy. Whether it's reality or fantasy one thing is absolutely for sure. Players will nitpick the cr@p out of the reasons. I don't know if they have legitimate reasons, but I don't really blame them for not filling in the details.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    If they First you say I know something about the game engine...that's is reasonably possible to add housing. Then you say I don't know anything about the game engine. Which one is it? Do I know specific things about their game engine? No, of course not. That would mean I was part of the development team, and I wouldn't be posting here. I do know things about game engines in general and I know a lot about developing applications. If they aren't touting housing as a feature, it means the game engine won't do it, which means it will need to be added. What is the very first technology demo shown for games and game engines? It's the world itself. No players, no NPCs, just the terrain and the objects in the world. That is the base of the entire game. Everything you see depends on it, and if they have to rewrite the engine to add something that it doesn't currently do, the entire thing needs to be at least be tested. That is a lot of man hours. It's not going to be free. MMORPG rival the complexity of operating systems, without doing half as many things. It's not going to be cheap or easy to modify a fundamental aspect of the game.

    They didn't tell anyone why it's not possible because then thousands of players would nitpick the cr@p out of it. People would come up with reason after reason why it is possible and why they should do it. That's what happens. That's what always happens. If players acted like reasonable people, then they could tell them why they're doing stuff, but mostly players don't care. They just want whatever it is they want and they'll argue for-freaking-ever to get it. It's a no-win situation. Better to give as little information as possible and then totally ignore any further mention of it.

    As far as knowing what players want, that's debatable. They have their reasons, and they might be based on some sort of reality, or some sort of fantasy. Whether it's reality or fantasy one thing is absolutely for sure. Players will nitpick the cr@p out of the reasons. I don't know if they have legitimate reasons, but I don't really blame them for not filling in the details.

     

     

     they didnt say 'player housing is not possible because of the game engine', you however did. did you not?

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • ShadowedMareShadowedMare Minster, OHPosts: 30Member

    Player housing is usually a mess, I've never seen it work out all that well - maybe in EQ2. Anyways, this thread got me thinking, what if they added in instanced neighborhoods? This way players could live where ever they wanted, if two players picked the exact same house the system would just generate a separate neighborhood, 

    The Shadowed Mare - A Tavern North of Caldera and an Elder Scrolls Online Fansite and Forums.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by ShadowedMare

    Player housing is usually a mess, I've never seen it work out all that well - maybe in EQ2. Anyways, this thread got me thinking, what if they added in instanced neighborhoods? This way players could live where ever they wanted, if two players picked the exact same house the system would just generate a separate neighborhood, 

    EQ2 housing is a joke. They went out of their way to design a system that is completely useless and disconnected from the rest of the game play as possible. Its almost like they designed it on purpose to turn people off to housing.

     

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by ShadowedMare

    Player housing is usually a mess, I've never seen it work out all that well - maybe in EQ2. Anyways, this thread got me thinking, what if they added in instanced neighborhoods? This way players could live where ever they wanted, if two players picked the exact same house the system would just generate a separate neighborhood, 

    EQ2 housing is a joke. They went out of their way to design a system that is completely useless and disconnected from the rest of the game play as possible. Its almost like they designed it on purpose to turn people off to housing.

     

     

    They are not focusing on player housing yet, they are making the game first. I feel that housing should not be a forced issue in a game. I personaly don't really care about housing unless the game some how makes it a reward or some kind of incentive to actually take the time to have one. They are like little pets, I don't see anyone saying that if they don't have a little useless pet the game is failz. Its not a make or break deal for me and the lack of housing in alot of games shows that most of the community is in the same boat.

    I played LOTR and went into the housing area once, and thought it was a horrible Idea. There were no other people in there having house parties or anything.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by ShadowedMare

    Player housing is usually a mess, I've never seen it work out all that well - maybe in EQ2. Anyways, this thread got me thinking, what if they added in instanced neighborhoods? This way players could live where ever they wanted, if two players picked the exact same house the system would just generate a separate neighborhood, 

    EQ2 housing is a joke. They went out of their way to design a system that is completely useless and disconnected from the rest of the game play as possible. Its almost like they designed it on purpose to turn people off to housing.

     

     

    They are not focusing on player housing yet, they are making the game first. I feel that housing should not be a forced issue in a game. I personaly don't really care about housing unless the game some how makes it a reward or some kind of incentive to actually take the time to have one. They are like little pets, I don't see anyone saying that if they don't have a little useless pet the game is failz. Its not a make or break deal for me and the lack of housing in alot of games shows that most of the community is in the same boat.

    I played LOTR and went into the housing area once, and thought it was a horrible Idea. There were no other people in there having house parties or anything.

    I dont understand why people keep saying things the developer did say and not holding what they actually said to account. Instead fans of this load of crap are making up better excuses then the developers did themselves which should be a huge warning sign.

    They did NOT say:

    'we might do it later'

    they DID say

    'its not possible as players want it'

     

    two RADICALLY different statements

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • ZigZagsZigZags Modesto, CAPosts: 328Member

    I propose a system like FFXI but where you can customize the interior to a great extent and invite friends/guildies/guildhall that way houses and guildhalls dont clutter the world but you have a private and safe place to train/store treasure/rest etc

     

    Now: Skyrim
    Later: ?
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  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    'player housing is not possible as players want it'.. This statement says to me that the game world will be very restrictive and linear and therefor housing would be hard to apply to the game world. There really aren't any creative people in the mmo industry, its just full of greed and lies.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    "We have people that have been around for successful MMOs and people that have worked on failed MMOs. It is very important to have people around that saw a game go bad so we can see that life lesson"  Matt Frior

    That just made me laugh. They don't seem to be learning any lessons.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Istavaan

    'player housing is not possible as players want it'.. This statement says to me that the game world will be very restrictive and linear and therefor housing would be hard to apply to the game world. There really aren't any creative people in the mmo industry, its just full of greed and lies.

    agreed, its really the only sentence needed to know its going to be a cluster f8cked game.

    it might be a success but then again, so was American Idol so success and good are not the same.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • eve_vetseve_vets stockholmPosts: 9Member

    I just read a art with the old daoc Frior something sorry Im a old mmo player my memory isnt what it it use to be so..

    well somehow it was a missconception they didnt say no to housing  but they consider they wanted to wait

    Well If they wanna wait to introduce housing I can wait paying any cash also

    No player housing no cash from me so simple as that.

  • Sevenstar61Sevenstar61 Centreville, VAPosts: 1,690Member Uncommon

    Housing is not my top 10 priorities. I had 6 houses in EQ2 and spend there maybe 1 minute a month, mostly to get to my portals. Guild house on other side - much higher priority then housing in my opinion.

    So housing is not going to be a subscribe or not subscribe factor for me in any MMO.

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  • eve_vetseve_vets stockholmPosts: 9Member

    Player owned housing gives the mmorpg game more loyal customers  

    Those games that have a working  housing world live longer then other  mmorpgs

    If yo analyze what mmorpg gamers wants to do its not what they say its what the do.

     

    Alot of them say I want pvp fast action    those games die hard and fast the playerbase leave those games faster then

    they change condoms ...

     

  • Sevenstar61Sevenstar61 Centreville, VAPosts: 1,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eve_vets

    Player owned housing gives the mmorpg game more loyal customers  

    Those games that have a working  housing world live longer then other  mmorpgs

    If yo analyze what mmorpg gamers wants to do its not what they say its what the do.

     

    Alot of them say I want pvp fast action    those games die hard and fast the playerbase leave those games faster then

    they change condoms ...

     

    That's how it is right now... no matter if game has housing or not. Players are moving from game to game as soon as they get to max level or even before.  Reality.

    image
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  • MercArcherMercArcher fort wayne, INPosts: 57Member

    I personally am GLAD that there is no player housing. Player housing is a large development undertaking for such a small impact on the game. Wasting large amounts of devlopment time for a feature that is only requested by a very small minority, and has little to no impact on gameplay isn't a good idea. I would rather they focus on the actual gameplay elements and polishing those. If you want to play a bad version of the sims, then I suggest you just go play the sims.

     

    There is also the fact that it decentralized where people go to idle at end game making the cities look more empty and the servers appear to be more dead than they actually are.

     

    Player housing is a lose-lose for everyone in virtuall every aspect.

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MercArcher

    I personally am GLAD that there is no player housing. Player housing is a large development undertaking for such a small impact on the game. Wasting large amounts of devlopment time for a feature that is only requested by a very small minority, and has little to no impact on gameplay isn't a good idea. I would rather they focus on the actual gameplay elements and polishing those. If you want to play a bad version of the sims, then I suggest you just go play the sims.

     

    There is also the fact that it decentralized where people go to idle at end game making the cities look more empty and the servers appear to be more dead than they actually are.

     

    Player housing is a lose-lose for everyone in virtuall every aspect.

    Yeah man, more options are terrible.  Making the game feel like a liveable world?  Blech!  No thank you!

    /sarcasm

    This game has 250 people on its team.  If they can't do some form of housing they are just be lazy.

  • thecapitainethecapitaine West Chester, PAPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    Housing in an Elder Scrolls game is no more fluff than any of its other peripheral systems like crafting, enchanting, 100s of lore books, or weird npcs that offer no quests.  Some people may not care about interacting with these things during playtime but they nonetheless go a long way to giving the series its soul.  While I appreciate Zeni jumping into a new genre with its own constraints, if the target audience is fans of the series then not including housing is a serious misstep.  One that only makes me question further just what sort of game they're trying to make and just who will bother playing it on release.
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    Because the mmorpg genre moved from persistent online worlds in which the player had a stake, to grind, pew pew, move onto the next title, co-op type games.

     

    The fact that player houses, cities and the like are considered "fluff" within this genre now says it all really.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Because zenimax want maximum profit with  low risk. it's basically a cash grab. they want box sales, so don't buy it.

    They could still easily have added an instanced cheap version like in Runes of magic... 

    Sure, they did probably cut away all non essential features to save money, but if it were just a money grab they would have added loads of features that sounds cool on paper but were so broken and cheapened down that they were useless, like in STO.

    Zenimax is probably believing in their game, Bethesda is earning way too much money on the IP to just through it down the drain.

    That doesnt mean the game wont suck (it might), but I do think them themselves assumes it will be a success.

  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon

    I always liked the housing in daoc. It was a seperate zone, that had plots, and you could buy different size houses for different upfront prices and higher weekly prices. You could pay up to like a month in advance. People ended up using their houses as a market too. Had various things you could use to customize it like crafting, bind spot, banking, furnish it how you want, place your trophies there.

    The zone went on an on. There were horses to other areas, and later I think portals to jump to sections. Or you could pay more to buy items people sold from the auction house seller at the beginning of the zone if you didn't want to trek all the way out to their house.

    Houses did decay if you didn't pay your rent and the plot opened up. If you had any stuff when your house vanished, it was all saved on an npc that you could get it back from, including the deed to put your house back up somewhere.

    I really miss housing. Always wish WoW put it in, would have kept me in the game longer. Could have had a huge yard with my 100+ mounts roaming about, hehe.

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Because zenimax want maximum profit with  low risk. it's basically a cash grab. they want box sales, so don't buy it.

    They could still easily have added an instanced cheap version like in Runes of magic... 

    Sure, they did probably cut away all non essential features to save money, but if it were just a money grab they would have added loads of features that sounds cool on paper but were so broken and cheapened down that they were useless, like in STO.

    Zenimax is probably believing in their game, Bethesda is earning way too much money on the IP to just through it down the drain.

    That doesnt mean the game wont suck (it might), but I do think them themselves assumes it will be a success.

    They think it will be a success because it has the namesake of one of the biggest fantasy IPs in history.  They think that's all it needs.

    Crap out a generic MMO with the TES name = money to these people.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Istavaan

     

    They think it will be a success because it has the namesake of one of the biggest fantasy IPs in history.  They think that's all it needs.

    Crap out a generic MMO with the TES name = money to these people.

    The sad thing is they are probably right.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member
    Originally posted by Istavaan

    Because zenimax want maximum profit with  low risk. it's basically a cash grab. they want box sales, so don't buy it.

    A  very common practice these days.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

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